".....without a single program line !"

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Quote:

Discuss.

You start?

As of January 15, 2018, Site fix-up work has begun! Now do your part and report any bugs or deficiencies here

No guarantees, but if we don't report problems they won't get much of  a chance to be fixed! Details/discussions at link given just above.

 

"Some questions have no answers."[C Baird] "There comes a point where the spoon-feeding has to stop and the independent thinking has to start." [C Lawson] "There are always ways to disagree, without being disagreeable."[E Weddington] "Words represent concepts. Use the wrong words, communicate the wrong concept." [J Morin] "Persistence only goes so far if you set yourself up for failure." [Kartman]

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"Frequency counter Max 10 Hz", wow.

How convert AVRs into snails?

Peter

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Quote:
How convert AVRs into snails?
Anaconda ? :)

Nard

A GIF is worth a thousend words   They are called Rosa, Sylvia, Tessa and Tina, You can find them https://www.linuxmint.com/

Dragon broken ? http://aplomb.nl/TechStuff/Dragon/Dragon.html for how-to-fix tips

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JohanEkdahl wrote:
Quote:

Discuss.

You start?

"Without a single brain cell! (TM)"

:-(

JW

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Looking at the pages that are linked to above:

Quote:
Coming soon .. release date 15. October 2009 ! ! !

Maybe the discussion will be more interesting when someone outside AVR Tools has had a chance to test it.

The idea seems to resemble (at least on the surface) the concept of "Software ICs", which was semi-hyped at the time of "The First OOP Wave" circa 1990 (think Smalltalk, Object Pascal, and the sadly forgotten Simula-2).

As of January 15, 2018, Site fix-up work has begun! Now do your part and report any bugs or deficiencies here

No guarantees, but if we don't report problems they won't get much of  a chance to be fixed! Details/discussions at link given just above.

 

"Some questions have no answers."[C Baird] "There comes a point where the spoon-feeding has to stop and the independent thinking has to start." [C Lawson] "There are always ways to disagree, without being disagreeable."[E Weddington] "Words represent concepts. Use the wrong words, communicate the wrong concept." [J Morin] "Persistence only goes so far if you set yourself up for failure." [Kartman]

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Has someone killed the website? - I just cannot get a connection to it now.

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Great stuff.

Attachment(s): 

/Jesper
http://www.yampp.com
The quick black AVR jumped over the lazy PIC.
What boots up, must come down.

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More looks like Labview to me.

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I wonder if my ISP's DNS is wrong? When I try to ping it I just get:

D:\sounds\docs>ping www.avrtools.no

Pinging buddy.onnet.net [213.179.57.46] with 32 bytes of data:
Request timed out.

Ping statistics for 213.179.57.46:
    Packets: Sent = 1, Received = 0, Lost = 1 (100% loss),
Control-C

Can someone who can connect to the site ping it for me and verify that it is 213.179.57.46 please?

Cliff

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GATE#~> ping www.avrtools.no
PING buddy.onnet.net (213.179.57.46) 56(84) bytes of data.
64 bytes from mldjpe.colo.netclient.no (213.179.57.46): icmp_seq=1 ttl=121 time=68.1 ms

Stefan Ernst

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Thanks Stefan. How very odd - I just cannot reach it. Ho hum.

D:\sounds\docs>tracert www.avrtools.no

Tracing route to buddy.onnet.net [213.179.57.46]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1     1 ms     1 ms     1 ms  192.168.0.1
  2    22 ms    21 ms    23 ms  lo98.gr-acc-lns-1.as9105.net [212.74.102.41]
  3    22 ms    24 ms    29 ms  10.72.9.81
  4    46 ms    23 ms    25 ms  10.72.9.223
  5   108 ms    24 ms    23 ms  xe-5-1-0-156.lon20.ip4.tinet.net [77.67.65.69]
  6    61 ms    27 ms    28 ms  xe-10-1-0.lon10.ip4.tinet.net [89.149.185.74]
  7    23 ms   116 ms    27 ms  213.200.77.234
  8    58 ms    63 ms    58 ms  208.178.61.66
  9    59 ms    59 ms    59 ms  80.65.48.186
 10     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 11     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 12     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 13     *     ^C

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c:\Program Files\Atmel\AVR Tools\WinAVR>tracert www.avrtools.no

Tracing route to buddy.onnet.net [213.179.57.46]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  192.168.1.1
  2     *      164 ms    12 ms  st-static-bckb-221.213-81-232.telecom.sk [213.81
.232.221]
  3    12 ms    14 ms    19 ms  dupdevs-static-193.213-81-249.telecom.sk [213.81
.249.193]
  4    13 ms    13 ms    13 ms  st-static-bckb-69.213-81-254.telecom.sk [213.81.
254.69]
  5    14 ms    13 ms    14 ms  dupdevs-static-114.213-81-253.telecom.sk [213.81
.253.114]
  6    33 ms    13 ms    14 ms  dupdevs-static-17.213-81-253.telecom.sk [213.81.
253.17]
  7    15 ms    14 ms    14 ms  212.73.203.33
  8   100 ms    44 ms    33 ms  ae-9-9.ebr1.Frankfurt1.Level3.net [4.69.141.158]

  9    38 ms    39 ms    32 ms  ae-81-81.csw3.Frankfurt1.Level3.net [4.69.140.10
]
 10    27 ms    26 ms    26 ms  ae-3-89.edge4.Frankfurt1.Level3.net [4.68.23.140
]
 11    29 ms    27 ms    28 ms  te8-4-10G.ar4.FRA3.gblx.net [64.208.110.177]
 12    62 ms    62 ms    62 ms  208.178.61.66
 13    63 ms    63 ms    62 ms  80.65.48.186
 14     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 15    63 ms  2262 ms    64 ms  mldjpe.colo.netclient.no [213.179.57.46]

Trace complete.

Strange.

JW

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Good catch, Jesper :)

A GIF is worth a thousend words   They are called Rosa, Sylvia, Tessa and Tina, You can find them https://www.linuxmint.com/

Dragon broken ? http://aplomb.nl/TechStuff/Dragon/Dragon.html for how-to-fix tips

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Quote:
"Without a single brain cell! (TM)"

I wouldn't condemn it on sight. We use utilities for material shaders and particle effects (for video game graphics) that are the same concept. They are quite powerful and versatile. So it really depends on the implementation and intended use.

What I would like to know is, can you create your own blocks and add them to your project?

Regards,
Steve A.

The Board helps those that help themselves.

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Looks like labview!
I hate labview!!! >:0

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Quote:
Forget assembly and C code.

So no more C versus ASM wars ?
I will miss them.

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Oh yes, "developing" software by drawing pretty pictures. That was a massive fail when people figured out CASE tools weren't the panacea for problems in software development. It was again a massive fail when the first wave of (iconic) visual programming languages died. As Johan noted, it was another massive fail when the first wave of OOA/OOD tools was over. It was another massive fail when the second OOA/OOD tool craze was over (UML-centered software development). It was a massive fail when it was touted as visual programming extensions for languages like Jave, then in connotation with "components" and "component frameworks".

Based on that history I see a great future for this tool.

Stealing Proteus doesn't make you an engineer.

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Hey now, I've built a whole processor in the Altera MAX+PLUS schematic editor ;) (I would not suggest doing that of course... Verilog is much nicer)

Some simple functions can be done with graphical flow based languages. Even some PLC programming environments still feature it. But every time you see "No code!" as a selling point, they're missing the point. You still are *programming*, just not with a text editor. If you can't get the hang of writing text to program, you will have no more luck graphically programming.

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I remember "The Last One":

http://books.google.com/books?id=75dRYTqixzYC&pg=PA133#v=onepage&q=&f=false

It was a program generator that would, supposedly, allow anyone to develop applications without having to know anything about programming. A journalist friend of mine was taken in by the hype at the press launch (probably helped by a copious amount of free booze) and wrote a glowing "review" of the product in the top-selling UK computer magazine. I don't think that anyone was able to use it to do much more than simple mailing lists and it crashed on me when I tried it out.

Leon Heller G1HSM

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Be patient guys!

We will try to put out a beta beta version of AVRtool during the next week!

The development of AVRtools has taken longer than expected (as usual :twisted: ), but we are now in an intensive test period with the completion of the program.

And sorry that the website is down sometimes. (Testing in progress!)

Perhaps we need to postpone the release date to 1.November, but some samples will be released before that time.

Mike Olsen

:wink:

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JohanEkdahl wrote:

The idea seems to resemble (at least on the surface) the concept of "Software ICs", which was semi-hyped at the time of "The First OOP Wave" circa 1990 (think Smalltalk, Object Pascal, and the sadly forgotten Simula-2).
I believe Brad Cox coined the term "Software ICs" in a paper introducing Objective-C around 1985. (I'm trying to find my copy.) It's too bad he didn't hype the idea more as ObjC actually achieved that with just a few simple extensions to C you could pick up in an afternoon.

I would be a big fan of fixing the avr-gcc objective-C runtime library. I bet it would greatly simply AVRtool. Consider how Apple has used it to great effect in Nextstep/Cocoa.

- John

Last Edited: Fri. Mar 5, 2010 - 10:01 PM
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why use "sign language", if i am able to speak what i mean, and the AVR is able to listen?

if the AVR would be deaf or if i would be dumb.. ok.. :-)

Carsten,
with greetings from Berlin

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Quote:

if i am able to speak what i mean

Do you express all your communication in spoken (or written) words? You never draw a picture to explain or specify something?

Extrapolating your argument we should get rid of schematics too.

As of January 15, 2018, Site fix-up work has begun! Now do your part and report any bugs or deficiencies here

No guarantees, but if we don't report problems they won't get much of  a chance to be fixed! Details/discussions at link given just above.

 

"Some questions have no answers."[C Baird] "There comes a point where the spoon-feeding has to stop and the independent thinking has to start." [C Lawson] "There are always ways to disagree, without being disagreeable."[E Weddington] "Words represent concepts. Use the wrong words, communicate the wrong concept." [J Morin] "Persistence only goes so far if you set yourself up for failure." [Kartman]

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papa_of_t wrote:
why use "sign language", if i am able to speak what i mean, and the AVR is able to listen
Because people with feeble memories like myself will have forgotten what they have said five days or perhaps even five seconds ago. The poor, listening AVR, however, will have remembered everything, exactly, and get confused when I contradict myself.

When I draw an idea on one part of a sheet I can see what I have "said" as I connect and relate it to the next idea, next to it. I rarely finish a good, challenging design in one sitting. Later when I return to it, I can glance at my sheet of text and symbols, recall where I was and what I was thinking, and continue where I left off. As can a co-designer if I am thorough enough.

Does that answer your question?

- John

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i don't like this heavy abstraction level. First: The "picture program" is less precise and less granular as source code. Second: I have to learn the painting of the pictures as well. Third: I am depending from the picture software manufacturer. Fourth: I can only guess what really happens and what about the precise timing in uS or nS of my "Application".

If i forgot what i programmed yesterday, i have my comments and my backups. Enjoy this stuff if you like - i dont.

Carsten,
with greetings from Berlin

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papa_of_t wrote:
i don't like this heavy abstraction level. First: The "picture program" is less precise and less granular as source code. Second: I have to learn the painting of the pictures as well. Third: I am depending from the picture software manufacturer. Fourth: I can only guess what really happens and what about the precise timing in uS or nS of my "Application".
I sympathize and agree with your later points. Your first point, however, is why I want to use CASE tools, but the ones I have looked at have proved to be more like CASE toys unless a project requires and can support a lot of verification.

I'll look at Atmel's work when it appears. (Hope springs eternal.)

- John

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jfiresto wrote:
I'll look at Atmel's work when it appears. (Hope springs eternal.)
Even if AVRtools come from Norway namely Trondheim, I doubt they are directly related to Atmel.

JW

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Quite right. Thanks for pointing that out!

- John

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Quote:
Even if AVRtools come from Norway namely Trondheim, I doubt they are directly related to Atmel.

But it has AVR in the name, so if it doesn't come from Atmel, then they will have to change the name.

Regards,
Steve A.

The Board helps those that help themselves.

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Koshchi wrote:
Quote:
Even if AVRtools come from Norway namely Trondheim, I doubt they are directly related to Atmel.

But it has AVR in the name, so if it doesn't come from Atmel, then they will have to change the name.
Something like that happened to the BMW Car Club of America. To avoid any possible confusion, BMW's corporate counsel insisted the club add a space to their name so that they were the BMW CCA rather than the BMWCCA. And BMW did that to a fan club that was adding many millions of dollars to their bottom line.

- John

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Now just add voice recognition and we can just yell at the IC until it becomes what we want. No more ugly C or assembly to worry about! I hate thinking anyhow.

"Damn you AVR, you WILL become a high definition video output device mister. Now hook yourself up to an SDRAM chip now!!"

....SkyNet becomes self aware.

Brad

I Like to Build Stuff : http://www.AtomicZombie.com

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All I want as source for every project:

just do it

As intermediate step someone might invent the DWIMNWIW compiler.

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These tools are useful, but pretending there isn't a line of code behind it is obnoxious. This is called a state machine generator, and looks pretty much the same as VisualSTATE does from IAR.

http://www.iar.com/website1/1.0....

Essentially you define some states and relationships between them graphically, and the IDE takes care of writing ANSI C for it.

These tools are invaluable to design large and complex state machines from the bottom up, it does save a lot of time, but IMHO are useless if they don't output semi-decent code.

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Snake Oil. Programmers are the bane of managers. You cant see software. You cant measure their progress. You ask em 'How's it going?' and its 'Two more edits!' and this goes on for months. And the ones that can actually write programs that work all want $60 an hour. And you cant hire three new compsci grads at $20 an hour and get anything done. A program that would generate object code from a spec is the Holy Grail of project managers. They will be willing to pay for it like it was water from the Fountain of Youth. Never mind that if the generated program follows a spec with conflicting requirements, it will try to tun on the light and turn off the light at the same time, so some poor doofus will need to debug the spec, but maybe he'll only be getting a tech writer's salary.

Imagecraft compiler user

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While I still cannot access the website for this new tool I have a feeling it sounds quite a lot like the "Flowcode" thing that's been available for a while and was discussed back here:

https://www.avrfreaks.net/index.p...

A fun "toy" but not sure if it's really of much use in real world solutions.

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Uncle Bob!

Have I already told you that from time to time you are hilariously funny - as above! LOL!

As of January 15, 2018, Site fix-up work has begun! Now do your part and report any bugs or deficiencies here

No guarantees, but if we don't report problems they won't get much of  a chance to be fixed! Details/discussions at link given just above.

 

"Some questions have no answers."[C Baird] "There comes a point where the spoon-feeding has to stop and the independent thinking has to start." [C Lawson] "There are always ways to disagree, without being disagreeable."[E Weddington] "Words represent concepts. Use the wrong words, communicate the wrong concept." [J Morin] "Persistence only goes so far if you set yourself up for failure." [Kartman]

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Yeah, but I was dead serious. The wages for programmers and musicians just aint fair. I betcha they price that programmer replacer program at half a manyear's salary... abour $25k.

Imagecraft compiler user

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I've seen Visual code-generating programs come and go. Like the newest language, they are all touted as being the perfect panacea for all programmatic problems. And like the newest language, the hype is higher than the result.

Maybe a code-generating flowchart program that has layers, along with plugins for different micros can be a beginning.

--Rich

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bobgardner wrote:
Yeah, but I was dead serious. The wages for programmers and musicians just aint fair. I betcha they price that programmer replacer program at half a manyear's salary... abour $25k.

Order online subpage wrote:
USB licensing dongle. Neded to download the application to the AVR chip € 98.00

http://www.avrtools.no/Main.asp?...

JW

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Koshchi wrote:
But it has AVR in the name, so if it doesn't come from Atmel, then they will have to change the name.
Na, Atmel only beats up the small guys. This is going to be so big , Atmel won't be able to hit them with the lawyer stick.

Stealing Proteus doesn't make you an engineer.

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I would guess that the "ERROR"-message in the program is because the code is wrong. Perhaps that AMP-Gain which only has one input and is therefore colored red?

But I am not convinced this is the next program I will be using for programming AVRs. :)

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Hello everyone!

Some facts about AVRtools

AVRtools has nothing to do with Atmel Trondheim, Norway to do.

I'm just a simple guy in from Trondheim, Norway that just want to share my experiences with others.

AVRtool not intended to replace C, assembly or other languages.

AVRtools is intended as a supplement to these, and to help lower the threshold for using AVR's.

AVRtools should be as easy to use that beginners will quickly be able to use it, but at the same time so advanced, that the pros will find it interesting to use.

I am satisfied if AVRtools can help more people start using AVR processors (and ATMEL too I believe), and that they later learn both C and other languages.

And finally, I'm so old that I have worked with IBM punch cards, Motorola 6800 and Intel 8080, (if anyone remembers those) at the Norwegian University of Science and Technology (NTNU) in the 70s. And started back then with the Object-oriented programming

But a certain person, named Bill Gates, came in ahead of us.

Mike Olsen

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Quote:

And started back then with the Object-oriented programming

Sorry for the OT, but gotta ask this: Simula?

As of January 15, 2018, Site fix-up work has begun! Now do your part and report any bugs or deficiencies here

No guarantees, but if we don't report problems they won't get much of  a chance to be fixed! Details/discussions at link given just above.

 

"Some questions have no answers."[C Baird] "There comes a point where the spoon-feeding has to stop and the independent thinking has to start." [C Lawson] "There are always ways to disagree, without being disagreeable."[E Weddington] "Words represent concepts. Use the wrong words, communicate the wrong concept." [J Morin] "Persistence only goes so far if you set yourself up for failure." [Kartman]

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Simula Yes, and a successor for Simula, called BETA.
And we used Forth for then 6800
Mike Olsen

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mikeolsen wrote:

And finally, I'm so old that I have worked with IBM punch cards, Motorola 6800 and Intel 8080, (if anyone remembers those) at the Norwegian University of Science and Technology (NTNU) in the 70s. And started back then with the Object-oriented programming

But a certain person, named Bill Gates, came in ahead of us.

I think you meant to write behind us judging by the technology Microsoft used.

- John

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...

- John

Last Edited: Fri. Oct 2, 2009 - 06:52 AM
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Microsoft was founded in 1976 and I will assume that their first product "BASIC interpreter" was the object-oriented

Later, in 1980 came the PC-DOS

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mikeolsen wrote:
AVRtool not intended to replace C, assembly or other languages.

AVRtools is intended as a supplement to these, and to help lower the threshold for using AVR's.

(emphasis JW)
Well, then, why the "...without a single program line !"?

I see you want to capture the mass of youngsters with a hype, but isn't it a pity to deter immediately the experienced programmers?

Of course the marketing decisions are all yours. Just rest assured that your product will be subjected to a very deep and thorough criticism at this very forum... ;-)

Looking forward to the program.

JW

PS. Maybe time to get rid of the "ERROR" from that picture, even if it is just a picture...

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bobgardner: you made my day! very funny!

Or if you really meant what you wrote: Even more funny!

Thank goodness that good programmers are expensive. But we need also some "tools" and users of them to build malfunctioning software - that keeps more people employed, and at the end the "Managers" have to pay both 1x for the tools and the 20$ guys, then after malfunctioning the 60$ guys.

Live is beautiful! :-)

Think about why they are expensive. A powerpoint-presentation can hardly control a machine - and we are depending from machines.. much more than from power-pint slides.. :-)

Carsten,
with greetings from Berlin

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Quote:

AVRtools has nothing to do with Atmel Trondheim, Norway to do.

You do know what happened to AVR-USB don't you (now V-USB) ? Atmel almost certainly WILL protect their registered trademark.

This thread and the early confusion of whether this was an Atmel designed/sanctioned product or not rather proves their point ;-)

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