Which oscilloscope would you recommend (Rigol)

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Hi

I am hesitating between these models:

1)Rigol DS1102E without logic analyzer
2)Rigol DS1052D with logic analyzer

or maybe 3) Rigol DS152E

Question now is:

Is it worth to spend more money to have scope with 16 digital channels?
What would you recommend? Do you use frequently logic analyzer. Is logic analyzer with scope practical?

My area of work is mainly 8 bit avr microcontrollers plus analouge electronics. Frequencies are not high. Recently I have designed 10 bit ADC converter.

In what kind of projects/ applications logic analyzer suits best? Do you have these models?

I can get

DS1052E for 374$
DS1102E for 674$
DS1102D for 1094$

Oscilloscope mainly for occasional projects applications. It won`t be used intensively.

Adam

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I'd buy a scope without a logic analyzer, and a separate USB logic analyzer. I personally use a DS1052E and a Saleae Logic, and I couldn't be happier.

Jeff Nichols

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Saelig (US) recently dropped the price of the DS1102E (100MHz, 2-channel) to $399. They also have the DS1064B (60MHz, 4-channel) for $945.

In the days when we were designing complex digital circuits the LA was very useful. But for general micro use I find a 2 or 4-channel scope adequate. There is always a tradeoff: sometime you may need more than 4 channels; sometime you may need higher bandwidth.

If you were designing with "microprocessors" rather than "microcontrollers" the LA might be more desirable so you could monitor address/data buses. But most (not all) microcontroller applications do not use external address/data buses.

I had a TEK2445 (analog, 200 MHz, 4-channel) for many years and it served me well. You could even view the trigger so effectively it was a 5-channel scope. But my DS1052E (50MHz, 2-channel) works for most everything I do now.

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lfryd wrote:
Is it worth to spend more money to have scope with 16 digital channels?
Yes if your lab space is very limited or your test equipment volume in the field is limited; otherwise, no.
lfryd wrote:
What would you recommend?
As much scope bandwidth as you can afford with at least 2 channels (prefer 4 + aux). You'll need growth; IIRC, an AVR32 UC3's SPI risetime is about 1ns or 2ns so 200MHz or 300MHz (approx.).
Alot some money for probes.
If the scope has 50ohm or 50ohm/1Megohm inputs then that opens up the probe possibilities (low price to extreme price).
For most digital the best setup is a 1K resistor, 50ohm coax cable, 50ohm input.
Though, the 1M/10M probe is wide-spread and usually adequate but can "lie" if don't account for its bandwidth.
System bandwidth is a function of scope bandwidth and probe bandwidth.
The logic analyzer -to- USB are good.
Usually verify signal integrity with a scope then signal validity with a scope for a few channels or a LA for a lot of channels.
lfryd wrote:
Do you use frequently logic analyzer.
No but when you need it you really need it. Much more often used are a Bus Pirate or Bus Ninja (serial bus capture and/or drive, LA, etc.).
lfryd wrote:
Is logic analyzer with scope practical?
Yes but may not be preferred. If the scope has a trigger out and a trigger in (aux.) then the LA can trigger the scope, or scope trigger the LA, or MCU trigger both.
lfryd wrote:
In what kind of projects/ applications logic analyzer suits best?
The likely/old-timer way was an execution trace capture or to diagnose MPU bus/device problems (races, contentions). But nowadays tracing is done with a hardware trace tool (AVR ONE! for AVR32, ARM EmbeddedICE). If using a FPGA or ASIC then a LA is commonly used.

"Dare to be naïve." - Buckminster Fuller

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Tektronix TDS2022C, 200MHz 2 channels, 1850USD.
Tektronix TDS2024C demonstration, 200MHz 4 channels, 1899USD (else 2095USD),
http://www.newark.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?SKU=14T6535&CMP=AFC-GB100000001
IIRC, Tektronix may have a promotion so search their website (I get roughly monthly e-mails from them).
If you're a student you may get a better promotion; contact your local Tektronix rep.
Consider a known brand demonstration, lightly used, or refurbished scope; the prices are good to excellent.
Please pardon my pushing of American test equipment ;-)

"Dare to be naïve." - Buckminster Fuller

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pixel2001n wrote:
I'd buy a scope without a logic analyzer, and a separate USB logic analyzer. I personally use a DS1052E and a Saleae Logic, and I couldn't be happier.

This is my exact setup too.

If I had to do it over again, I would still get the DS1052E but maybe get one of those open source LAs for around $50.

Rigol is the best value bar none, the question is which specific model is the best value.

There is value in having the LA integrated into the scope. When I am prototyping there are a zillion wires going each and every way, if the scope probes and the LA probes went into the same device then it would be slightly less messy looking. It also looks badass cool that your scope has LA inputs. There also might be some good synergy between the 2 functions in one device such as triggering an analog capture when certain logic patterns match some criteria and triggering LA capture when the an analog voltage/rise time/freq match some criteria, etc... I do not know the level of synergy between the LA function and the scope functions are on the Rigol.

For an LA, I find that screen real estate is very valuable, also being able to zoom and pan around quickly is also very valuable. Although those features are also very important in a scope, but with a scope you are typically looking at repeating waveforms and with an LA you typically are not, so it is more important for a LA IMHO. Getting a PC LA, give the screen real estate of you monitor, and with a mouse you can quickly pan and zoom, that is my experience with the saleae LA.

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Look at the Hantek DSO5000 series (in some countries branded as Tekway DST1102B). People who have tested them say they are much better than any of the Rigol's scopes.

Warning: Grumpy Old Chuff. Reading this post may severely damage your mental health.

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Thank you for your help :)

I think I will decide between DS1052E and DS1102E. If I need logic analyzer I have 4 channel 16 channels scope at my university.

If I take DS1052E and upgrade it I will lose 3 years warranty. :/ So this is not a good point for DS1052E.

Adam

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Quote:
Please pardon my pushing of American test equipment

Unfortunately most of the low end stuff comes from China. I have two Tek scopes, one from good 'ol US of A (2465) and a chinese one (tds210)

I did a review of the low end scopes recently and asMbedded reports, the hantek looks like it has the edge on paper - more memory vs the Rigol and similar price.there is the Atten brand units, but whilst cheaper, i'd be spending a little extra on the rigol or hantek. Rigol seem to be the Toyota of the low end and have had good reviews, so you wont do yourself a disservice getting one of these.

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Wow it is about time they put linux on a low end scope, Rigol is a sure bet for good value but my next scope will be a Hantek.

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Thank you George for a long explanation. I read your posts about Rigol and I see you are expert in the field of scopes :) Good to know Rigol is good price for value.

Some people complain that when using Rigol you have to switch channels to set vot/div of particular channel. I mean you don`t have two knobs for channal A and B. How it is solved in Hantek? I like design of these scopes.
One supplier recommended me Hameg scope.
And what would you recommend near 1000$?
It is hard to beat Rigol`s price.

Adam

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Hi,

I've got a Rigol 1022CD (series before the current D/E series) which is 25MHz and has the logic analyzer built in. I also have the DS1102E and a couple of separate logic analyzers.

After playing around with them I think the USB style logic analyzer is better because it has protocol analyzers and I don't think the Rigol does (unless they added it).

The DS1102E is an excellent tool especially for the $399 price (in the US). At the prices you listed, unless you absolutely need 100MHz, I'd go with the most bang for the buck - DS1052E. I'd start out not tweaking it for more speed unless you absolutely need it. Rigol scopes are an excellent tool for the money.

If you want a cheap logic analyzer iteadstudio has a knockoff/clone model that is only $50.

Good luck!!

Alan

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Once again thank you George for in-depth explanation. I was wandering where lies a trick and where they save money.

Quote:
The actual problem with these oscilloscopes is their acquisition stage, which usually has a bunch of interleaved cheap low speed ADCs instead of a single high speed ADC.

good to know this...

Thanks Alan for giving me your feedback about Rigol.

Hmm so I think that it is quite enough to take:

DS1102E or DS1052E and if one needs more DS4000/DS6000
I am almost decided to take DS1102E together with Rigol generator DG1022

Yuors

Adam

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I've had a DSO2090 for a year - hobby and light pro use. It's great for that. Bought direct from China, really cheap. Came marked as Tattoo Supplies!

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Giorgos_K wrote:
For example, the Rigol DS1000E/D has five 100MS/s ADCs per channel (ten ADCs in total) clocked in sequence by the on-board FPGA with 1.0ns phase shift, which produces vast amounts of jitter.

-George

Hi George,
I found and registered with this forum when I was searching for jitter on the Rigol oscilloscope and I found your comment in this thread.
Could you please explain in a little more detail - perhaps with an example or two - as to how this jitter impacts a typical measurement ? Lets say I am investigating high frequency noise riding on power supply lines or signal lines of an audio amplifier then how will and by how much will such jitter affect the measurement. Just trying to understand the impact of jitter on measurement.

Thanks!

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soundsgood wrote:
Giorgos_K wrote:
For example, the Rigol DS1000E/D has five 100MS/s ADCs per channel (ten ADCs in total) clocked in sequence by the on-board FPGA with 1.0ns phase shift, which produces vast amounts of jitter.

-George

Hi George,
I found and registered with this forum when I was searching for jitter on the Rigol oscilloscope and I found your comment in this thread.
Could you please explain in a little more detail - perhaps with an example or two - as to how this jitter impacts a typical measurement ? Lets say I am investigating high frequency noise riding on power supply lines or signal lines of an audio amplifier then how will and by how much will such jitter affect the measurement. Just trying to understand the impact of jitter on measurement.

Thanks!

Hi,
I found a great app note from Agilent related to this question. Hope it helps

cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-5732EN.pdf