WAS: i apologize to all guys [now: Codevision user comments]

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$ Thread split from https://www.avrfreaks.net/index.p... - JS $

js wrote:
You can make it good by buying the reasonable license if you want the FULL package. :)

Hi #MAAM#,

John has given you a good idea. However if you cannot purchase the license, you can always use Atmel Studio to develop your programs. It is free and you will get a lot of support here if you need it.

Insha'Allah you will do what is right and good.

If you use CVAVR you skip a lot of required early learning, that is not a good idea, eventually you will have to do the required learning to live without CVAVR and wish you had never gone there to waste your time and money.

Much better not to use CVAVR in the first place, take the time to learn to do things yourself in AS6, slower to start with but leaves you much better prepared in the long term.

Just my opinion, the fee is not reasonable, then on top of that there is the yearly fee just to get bug fixes and obtain what you thought you already paid for many times over but what you get is buggy or simply has things missing which you wont get unless you keep paying yearly edited, everyone happy now.

Last Edited: Sat. May 26, 2012 - 08:25 AM
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jabram wrote:

Just my opinion, the fee is not reasonable, then on top of that there is the yearly fee just to get bug fixes and obtain what you thought you already paid for many times over but what you get is buggy or simply has things missing which you wont get unless you keep paying yearly, Pavel has perfected the art of milking CVAVR for all it is not worth.

This should not be tolerated on this forum.

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stevech wrote:
jabram wrote:

Just my opinion, the fee is not reasonable, then on top of that there is the yearly fee just to get bug fixes and obtain what you thought you already paid for many times over but what you get is buggy or simply has things missing which you wont get unless you keep paying yearly, Pavel has perfected the art of milking CVAVR for all it is not worth.

This should not be tolerated on this forum.

I think it is a ridiculous attitude, especially coming from a software developer.

I also think it should be tolerated. Most of use are capable of making up our own minds.

Sid

Life... is a state of mind

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stevech wrote:
jabram wrote:

Just my opinion, the fee is not reasonable, then on top of that there is the yearly fee just to get bug fixes and obtain what you thought you already paid for many times over but what you get is buggy or simply has things missing which you wont get unless you keep paying yearly, Pavel has perfected the art of milking CVAVR for all it is not worth.

This should not be tolerated on this forum.


Why not? have you paid for CVAVR ? have you tried to deal with Pavel? I have, not a pleasent experience.

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Jabram

That is a very very unfair condemnation of an excellent product and its creator.

Stephen

Codevisionavr & Avrstudio 4.18
Easyavr5A-Jtagicemk1

Call me Pedantic, But not after 9.

if Milk_Brilliant
else Codevision_Avrs==Better

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jabram wrote:

Just my opinion...

Opinions are fine but ought to be backed up with some facts.

#1 This forum helps those that help themselves

#2 All grounds are not created equal

#3 How have you proved that your chip is running at xxMHz?

#4 "If you think you need floating point to solve the problem then you don't understand the problem. If you really do need floating point then you have a problem you do not understand." - Heater's ex-boss

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MR BLONDE wrote:
Jabram

That is a very very unfair condemnation of an excellent product and its creator.

Stephen


Just want to clarify, I did not say it was OK to steal CVAVR by using the cracked copy.

What I did say it that it is not worth buying, use what is available free, learn the basics and you are in a much better position.

You are better off doing the initial hard work and learning all the imporatnat basic things that CVAVR lets you skip.

It makes you lazy, later on you move to AVR32 or ARM and then you have to learn what really is not that difficult to learn in the first place and then you dont need CVAVR.

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Brian Fairchild wrote:
jabram wrote:

Just my opinion...

Opinions are fine but ought to be backed up with some facts.

Which facts would you like ? happy to supply them.

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Quote:

Which facts would you like ? happy to supply them.

As a long-time CV user and long-time 'Freak, I'll weigh in on this.

CV cost: Reasonable to very reasonable as far as pay-for tools go, AVR or otherwise. I'd guess that jabram is too young to remember what micro tools used to cost for Moto, TI, etc.

I'd also say reasonable for any repeated AVR development. Amortize an average of say $100/year over 10000 units and the compiler is a penny per unit.

Quote:

what you get is buggy

I've done way over 100 AVR production apps over the past 12 years. Volumes are modest but total yearly AVR usage, various models, is into five figures. In the past 10 years I've rarely run into a "compiler bug". I also follow the GCC forum some. There are things that crop up with that compiler as well. I'd say both tool sets are "reliable" and call it a wash.

Quote:

have you tried to deal with Pavel? I have, not a pleasent experience.


I'll bring up a related item that jabram only alluded to. When a problem >>does<< crop up, a fixed version of CV is usually posted in days, if not hours. Similar with support for new AVR models. AFAIK you just don't get that with GCC and the core of peple knowledgeable enough to make the change after finding the time.

So, let's just say I have pleasant-enough experiences.

Quote:

You are better off doing the initial hard work and learning all the imporatnat basic things that CVAVR lets you skip.


??? What does CV "let you skip"? Arcane makefile incantations? [editorial comment lol]

Quote:

simply has things missing ... which you wont get unless you keep paying yearly

??? What is "missing"? Or is "missing" only related to the next part, such as new model support?

===================
I've opined here before: Pavel has to eat, too. What business are you in, jabram? When we do a controller design for a local company and the customer comes back each year or two with requests for new firmware features, it isn't free updates forever. I have to eat, too.

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

I've never met a pig I didn't like, as long as you have some salt and pepper.

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Quote:

Which facts would you like ? happy to supply them

Well some factual justifcation of your attack would be good. Pavel, as far as I know, makes his sole living by the compilers he writes and supports so you could seriously affect his livelihood making unfounded comments about CodevVision. As far as I know most users writing here seem extremely satisfied with it and consider it great value for money.

Having seen the output of it's code generation model I think if I were looking for a paid for compiler in order to gain access to some support (which you don't get with "free" avr-gcc) then Codevision would be my first choice.

But like yours this is purely the personal opinion of one potential user.

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If Pavel made his living welding bicycles together, and Jabram lived next door to him, and saw some of the bicycles leaning against the fence waiting to be sold, and 'borrowed one for evaluation' for 10 years, then went back and wanted 'support' (tighten the chain?) I'd be surprised if he got the free support. Now we are getting into the 1% vs the 99% argument that Pavel is an Evil Capitalist and is exploiting the poor unemployed microcontroller programmers of the world, and his wealth must be reditributed fairly to all compilerless programmers around the world like government cheese and free health care. Its an interesting economic philoshophy that was tried for about 50 years by various economists like Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin, Castro, Mao. These are all wildly successful examples of econominc growth that surpassed Karl's wildest expectations. I like the simpler pay as you go plan.

Imagecraft compiler user

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Quote:
Quote:
You are better off doing the initial hard work and learning all the imporatnat basic things that CVAVR lets you skip.

??? What does CV "let you skip"? Arcane makefile incantations? [editorial comment lol]
I can see how it does "let you skip" figuring out how to initialize a timer or ADC. But the argument has no value unless it forces you to skip these things. And it does not hide what it is doing, it just produces code that you can examine to see how it works.

Regards,
Steve A.

The Board helps those that help themselves.

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I'm sorry, but I see that the honesty and serious nature of this most humbling post has been hijacked by the follow on arguments. I think the debate portion should be split off.

"I may make you feel but I can't make you think" - Jethro Tull - Thick As A Brick

"void transmigratus(void) {transmigratus();} // recursio infinitus" - larryvc

"It's much more practical to rely on the processing powers of the real debugger, i.e. the one between the keyboard and chair." - JW wek3

"When you arise in the morning think of what a privilege it is to be alive: to breathe, to think, to enjoy, to love." -  Marcus Aurelius

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Quote:

If you like I can split the utter garbage being spouted about CodeVision out of this thread?

Well, y'all know my leanings. But jabram may have had experiences that aren't "utter garbage" to him/hr. Personally, I'm waiting for the sun to come 'round to hear
Quote:

Which facts would you like ? happy to supply them

Reading between the lines, I get the impression that the upset stems from a lack of perpetual free updates. The "important basic things" that are "skipped" could be the conventional makefile/OBJ/linker of more traditional models. Perhaps jabram feels that this pain should be suffered by all.

[When I started college in 1969, the university had just dropped the mandatory "slide rule" course but still had the mandatory "engineering drawing" course. Looks kind of ridiculous now, doesn't it?]

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

I've never met a pig I didn't like, as long as you have some salt and pepper.

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Splitting the thread and locking the 1st post would be good, if I do it I'll probably kill the lot accidentally. :oops:

And for the record I think that the CV "price is right" and the same goes for Imagecraft.

Almost purchased Imagecraft when it had the Studio add on but then the new version dropped it and I don't use C that much anyway, the OLD AS4/winAvr works for me :) for as long as it last anyway.

John Samperi

Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.

www.ampertronics.com.au

* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly

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I did all my EE101 on a Post Versalog 22 scale slide rule that had a leather scabbard that hung from the EEs belts like scimitars. I could add phasors by bouncing off the sin and cos scales. If you waved a crisp $100 bill under my nose today, I couldn't even begin. I've still got it.

Imagecraft compiler user

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Do you still have a valid license for your slide rule or you lost it automatically when upgraded to a calculator? :lol:

Warning: Grumpy Old Chuff. Reading this post may severely damage your mental health.

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Quote:

Do you still have a valid license for your slide rule or you lost it automatically when upgraded to a calculator?

No, you are missing the point. Once you purchase the slide rule, then you are entitled to use it forever. However, a purchase of a slide rule doesn't mean that you are entitled to a free calculator when the new devices become available with advantageous functionality.

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

I've never met a pig I didn't like, as long as you have some salt and pepper.

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this debate is so, so pointless.

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I think lots of folks wonder how anyone makes any money from free software. I think Linus Torvalds is a brilliant programmer, but I sure don't understand the free software business model. I'm almost 99.99% certain that is DOESNOT apply to small compiler companies like HP Infotech and Imagecraft. IAR is a larger company with lots of employees, and we know that payroll is the largest expense in any company. Lets say they have 10 programmers on staff that are making $50K a year. They need to sell a half million dollars worth of compilers to keep the lights on and the paychecks coming. At $3000 per seat, they need to sell 166 of them a year. I have no idea how many compilers are sold by IAR, HP Infotech or Imagecraft, but how does this business model apply to linux or gcc? If you were a World Class compiler writer, and not a World Class anything else, it seems the most likely way to pay your bills would be to exploit your World Class talent rather than being an hourly guy somewhere. Why would you package up a product and give it away? Help me out here.

Imagecraft compiler user

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@Bob,

Do you play your bass guitar for free ?
You could make millions of dollars selling out Stadiums on a World Tour.

Everyone has their own different objectives in life.
A lot of public domain software has been written and developed by generous authors.

Before FSF and the internet, it was assumed that everyone sought riches. It is staggering how much software was / is developed for free.

If Richard or Pavel can make a living from ImageCraft or HPInfotech, then good luck to them.
Others live from their paid employment and do other things as a hobby.

Incidentally, if you hit the right software product, you can make a fortune. These tend to be those products that sell by the 100 million copies. You probably only make a few cents, but it all adds up.

If your product only sells by the 100, however much mark-up you make it is unlikely to make you rich.

As a customer, you decide yourself on whether the product is value for money. The selling price must suit both the company and the customer. If jabrams does not like a product, he need not buy it. Mind you, if he chooses to be disparaging, it is only fair for him to give some justification.

David.

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You sell consulting service for the 'free' software. How much do you think it would cost for you to get an hour of Linus Thorvald's time?

You sell advertising - how much did you pay to use Google or Facebook

You give away the razor and sell the blades.

etc. see:
http://hbr.org/2011/06/competing...
http://www.wired.com/techbiz/it/...
http://www.amazon.com/Free-The-F...

Smiley

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Get a printer for $35 and ribbons for $70? I don't like that model much do you? get a $400 phone for free and have to sign a contract to pay for 2 years? I don't like that model either. I try to get paid for sound gigs whenever possible. Some are gratis for benefits for folks with big bills and bad luck. If I get a playing gig, we usually split it equally. True Communism. Ain't that open minded of me?

Imagecraft compiler user

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Bob,

You contradict yourself. True Capitalism means you can devise whatever business model you like. e.g. give away the mobile phone and charge for the contract.

It is up to the punter to choose which contract to go for. Likewise with the inkjet printer.

If you don't like it, don't buy it.
Similarly, I will forgive you for your Communism if your band plays well.

David.

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There are people making money on supporting open source software (example: Redhat).

There are people making money on combining OSS with proprietary software (at least one ARM IDE maker comes to mind).

There are people using OSS for no money at all. Some of them contribute back to the community. And in a sense they market the stuff. (If someone says "we plan to buy an IDE that uses GCC as the compiler", I have substantial knowledge to perhaps give them some advice).

The model clearly works, at least for some cases, or else we would not have:
- Linux
- GCC
- Everything else GNU

Then there are the cases where the initiative at least partly was funded by a company. If I know the history correctly this goes for all of the following very well spread softwares:
- Eclipse
- NetBeans
- Subversion
- OpenOffice
and many more.

I have personally been part of making money on Subversion - by teaching/helping others to use it. I have returned to the community mainly by helping others (no code contributions) on the net. A few posts on Subversion actually ended up here at AVRfreaks.

As of January 15, 2018, Site fix-up work has begun! Now do your part and report any bugs or deficiencies here

No guarantees, but if we don't report problems they won't get much of  a chance to be fixed! Details/discussions at link given just above.

 

"Some questions have no answers."[C Baird] "There comes a point where the spoon-feeding has to stop and the independent thinking has to start." [C Lawson] "There are always ways to disagree, without being disagreeable."[E Weddington] "Words represent concepts. Use the wrong words, communicate the wrong concept." [J Morin] "Persistence only goes so far if you set yourself up for failure." [Kartman]

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I am disapointed with at least one moderator on this forum setting himself up as judge jury and executioner openly posting his plans to deal with my 'garbage'. I assume he meant my garbage, not clear.

I did not hijack this thread, I did not post something not relevant.

The OP was apologising for using a cracked copy of CVAVR, another poster suggested he buy it, another poster suggested he can learn to use AS6, I also suggested he use AS6 and not buy CVAVR.

I am starting to understand why new people on this forum are too scared to post anything.

I am 67 years old, I started working with MCUs back in the 1970s, I am well aware of what things used to cost and what a bargain todays's prices really are.

It is not a about the CVAVR price, it is about being FAIR, it is about a protection scheme that clearly does not protect CVAVR yet seriously affects those who have paid for it.

We are suposed to trust Pavel but he cannot trust us.

It is about hiding libraries, better fully documented code is available free on the net.

It is about doing things very differently and hiding how it is done.

CVAVR makes it easy to start writing code without reading the AVR data sheet and becoming familiar with the MCU you are using - not a good idea unlees you factor in going back and learning all that. It is a quick start but not good for YOU in the long term.

If you get used to using CVAVR you may incorrectly imagine you know a fair bit about AVR and programming in C - wrong!

Take your working CVAVR source and try to compile it with any other AVR C compiler and you will get a lot of errors, you can solve most of them easily but a lot will require you to go back and learn a lot more about C programming before your code will ever work again with more Standard C compilers.

It isn't just about make files and register definitions, there is a lot more involved.

For most people AVR isn't the only MCU they will use and CVAVR will not help them with those other MCU and the easy to use non standard C they have become used to using leaves them unprepared.

CVAVR is useful, just be aware of the gotchas and the extra work you will need to do when you eventually move on.

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jabram,

I agree that some of the behavior of at least one moderator, in general, is highly questionable. There is also some attitude from the "establishment" that does not make people feel welcome, regardless of skill level.

Speaking for myself, as a rather new figure around here, I get the sense that those people act like there's a shortage of questions and they have to fight for their right to be the one that supplies the answer. If you happen to supply an answer while those people are asleep, they will attack it as soon as they wake up. If you have supplied a correct answer that nobody can argue with, they will demand more information - even in the case where the one asking the question has reduced their source to the smallest code that will reproduce the problem behavior, you have posted a solution and the one asking the question has expressed that he's happy with it.

Others will throw out claims that they are "professional" developers, the implication being that you are not. At the same time their answers will reveal - to the real professionals - that they don't have a clue what they're talking about.

But...

The rest of your complaints don't make much sense. You initially went on a rant about how much money some supplier was able to make, as if it is wrong for somebody to make money from their work or make more money from their work than you claim you would want to. I strongly disagree with that. If you don't like the price structure, use something else. It really is as simple as that.

Now you've changed your complaints into worries about what using a tool will do to the users when they want to do something not covered by the tool. That's just plain stupid. A hammer is not intended to be used for screws, and anybody that has used a hammer for a little while knows that. Using slightly more advanced tools, most people get used to reading specs before they acquire a new tool, too.

Get the right tool for the job. When you face a new job, you may need a different tool. What's the problem with that ?

Sid

Life... is a state of mind

Last Edited: Mon. May 28, 2012 - 02:07 AM
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Quote:

If you have supplied a correct answer that nobody can argue with, they will demand more information - even in the case where the one asking the question has reduced their source to the smallest code that will reproduce the problem behavior, you have posted a solution and the one asking the question has expressed that he's happy with it.

OK, I'll bite:

1) [full disclosure] I don't read all threads.
2) This situation obviously grabbed you.
3) Give me a pointer or two, so that I might share your outrage.

I trust you will be able to do so.

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

I've never met a pig I didn't like, as long as you have some salt and pepper.

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Quote:

It is not a about the CVAVR price, it is about being FAIR, it is about a protection scheme that clearly does not protect CVAVR yet seriously affects those who have paid for it.

You are way losing me.
what part is not "FAIR"? How is it any less "fair" than any other scheme. You now say it is >>not<< about the price; but earlier didn't you say it wasn't worth it?

Let me back up. Earlier you said

Quote:

Which facts would you like ? happy to supply them

I just read and re-read your latest post. I see no "facts".

Earlier you claimed "buggy". Facts, please.
Earlier you claimed "things missing". Facts, please.
What libraries are "hidden"? Facts, please. The only ones that I know of are some of the recent "advanced" drivers for GCLD. [BTW, one of my pet peeves with Atmel re AVRs is that some of the "free" libraries/stacks aren't available as source code and only for selected compiler brands.]

Quote:

Take your working CVAVR source and try to compile it with any other AVR C compiler and you will get a lot of errors,

Examples, pleas, with a program written with such transport in mind.

If your examples are chip include file syntax and ISR syntax, wouldn't the same be said for any of the AVR brands to CV or to any other?
If your examples are EEPROM and flash access: ditto.
If your examples are inline ASM: ditto.

If your examples are standard C then list some of these "lots of errors".

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

I've never met a pig I didn't like, as long as you have some salt and pepper.

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Quote:
Take your working CVAVR source and try to compile it with any other AVR C compiler and you will get a lot of errors, you can solve most of them easily but a lot will require you to go back and learn a lot more about C programming before your code will ever work again with more Standard C compilers.

garbage

Even if one sticks to C99 and is careful, lots of changes are needed to go between ANY two C compiler/libraries. But a tiny few compared to cross-language ports.
And that was the intent.

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theusch wrote:
Quote:

If you have supplied a correct answer that nobody can argue with, they will demand more information - even in the case where the one asking the question has reduced their source to the smallest code that will reproduce the problem behavior, you have posted a solution and the one asking the question has expressed that he's happy with it.

OK, I'll bite:

1) [full disclosure] I don't read all threads.
2) This situation obviously grabbed you.
3) Give me a pointer or two, so that I might share your outrage.

I trust you will be able to do so.

I don't hold grudges, so I don't know if you're one of them.

It's also a little bit hard to find evidence as the moderator in question not only deletes posts that explicitly adresses his behavior - he'll even go in and stealthily edit not only his own posts, he'll even stealthily edit other people's quotes of his posts.

I also think that you, if you are one of the "establishment", should consider my feedback about the skilled newbie experience for what it is rather than trying to prove me wrong.

But I'll try to find some examples of what I'm talking about. I'll post back here if I find something relevant, if these posts still exist at that point in time.

EDIT: This thread, to some extent, is an example of the problem : https://www.avrfreaks.net/index.p...

It would have been more obvious if the moderator behaved more like a man of honor.

Sid

Life... is a state of mind

Last Edited: Mon. May 28, 2012 - 03:19 AM
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Quote:
It is a quick start but not good for YOU in the long term.
Is C good for anyone anyway? :-)
Quote:
be aware of the gotchas and the extra work you will need to do when you eventually move on.
The compiler would ONLY be part of the "issues" when one moves on other tools and/or controller.

And for ANYONE levelling slander towards any moderator REMEMBER: The job is yours, at least mine can be. I'm sure anyone can do a better job.

John Samperi

Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.

www.ampertronics.com.au

* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly

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js wrote:
And for ANYONE levelling slander towards any moderator REMEMBER: The job is yours, at least mine can be. I'm sure anyone can do a better job.

You as far as I know are not a part of the problem. But what you are saying is that no matter how a moderator abuses his privileges, stealthily or not, the outsider should just keep his big mouth shut if he knows what's good for him.

Sid

Life... is a state of mind

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ChaunceyGardiner wrote:
It's also a little bit hard to find evidence as the moderator in question not only deletes posts that explicitly adresses his behavior - he'll even go in and stealthily edit not only his own posts, he'll even stealthily edit other people's quotes of his posts.
Examples of this would be...???

ChaunceyGardiner wrote:
But what you are saying is that no matter how a moderator abuses his privileges, stealthily or not, the outsider should just keep his big mouth shut if he knows what's good for him.
I think I'm a fair observer and have been here a very long time and not seen this. So again - examples?

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smileymicros wrote:
ChaunceyGardiner wrote:
It's also a little bit hard to find evidence as the moderator in question not only deletes posts that explicitly adresses his behavior - he'll even go in and stealthily edit not only his own posts, he'll even stealthily edit other people's quotes of his posts.
Examples of this would be...???

I already posted an example of this. Obviously, it's hard to post examples of what exact changes the moderator did, as he did it using his stealth privilege.

If you want an example of where this power is used in the open, just look at this thread: https://www.avrfreaks.net/index.p...

smileymicros wrote:
ChaunceyGardiner wrote:
But what you are saying is that no matter how a moderator abuses his privileges, stealthily or not, the outsider should just keep his big mouth shut if he knows what's good for him.
I think I'm a fair observer and have been here a very long time and not seen this. So again - examples?

Why don't you just look at the post that was a response to ? He labels my expression of frustration as "slander".

I don't have any problems with js whatsoever, although his labelling my concern as "slander" raises another issue - moderators are beyond criticism no matter what they do. I'll just take that as a deposit to the "he didn't understand what i was saying" account.

Sid

Life... is a state of mind

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Quote:
his labelling my concern as "slander" raises another issue - moderators are beyond criticism no matter what they do
Moderators are beyond UNFAIR criticism. If Johan had any problem with Cliff editing his post then he would have complained loudly as he has done in the past.

One reason why I and other moderators sign our changes to some posts is so that everyone can see who has done what, if Cliff or anyone else wanted to do things in "stealth" then one would do changes without pointing out the changes or being the one who has done the changes.

As I said above anyone who feels that he/she will do a better job, and that quite easily be so, is free to apply to be a moderator. If there are no spots left they can have mine. :)

John Samperi

Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.

www.ampertronics.com.au

* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly

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Quote:

If you want an example of where this power is used in the open, just look at this thread: https://www.avrfreaks.net/index.p... ... ht=#954537

I might be blind, but I can not see where any moderator edited someone elses post in that thread. Could you point to the exact post? (Right-click the small document icon at the post to get to the specific URL for that post.)

So, I'm not sure if "Johan" refers to me or to SprinterSB (Johann). I'll assume it is me: Yes, I think mods should be very careful editing other peoples posts. I also think they should do so in some specific cases:

Examples:
No: Spelling and other textual corrections.
Border case: Adding CODE tags (I'm leaning towards "yes").
Yes: Removing spam, removing links to cracked software, removing foul language or outright slander etc.

In the end I should be responsible for what I post. There is an emphasis on both the first and second "I" in there. Any editing that risks altering the semantics ever so slightly - even if the semantics implied is not the intended ones - should not be edited by anyone by the poster.

Such a principle protects both the poster and the moderator.

As of January 15, 2018, Site fix-up work has begun! Now do your part and report any bugs or deficiencies here

No guarantees, but if we don't report problems they won't get much of  a chance to be fixed! Details/discussions at link given just above.

 

"Some questions have no answers."[C Baird] "There comes a point where the spoon-feeding has to stop and the independent thinking has to start." [C Lawson] "There are always ways to disagree, without being disagreeable."[E Weddington] "Words represent concepts. Use the wrong words, communicate the wrong concept." [J Morin] "Persistence only goes so far if you set yourself up for failure." [Kartman]

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I think the post in question is https://www.avrfreaks.net/index.p...

John Samperi

Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.

www.ampertronics.com.au

* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly

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Ah!

Thank you. I missed that one. (Because the forum software has a life on it's own when it comes to if it will add a "Last edited by..." note or not.)

In that case it was really quite benign, though a quote in a separate post would have been slightly clearer.

Not wanting to make a great fuzz about it, but IMO editing of other users posts should be kept to an absolute minimum.

As of January 15, 2018, Site fix-up work has begun! Now do your part and report any bugs or deficiencies here

No guarantees, but if we don't report problems they won't get much of  a chance to be fixed! Details/discussions at link given just above.

 

"Some questions have no answers."[C Baird] "There comes a point where the spoon-feeding has to stop and the independent thinking has to start." [C Lawson] "There are always ways to disagree, without being disagreeable."[E Weddington] "Words represent concepts. Use the wrong words, communicate the wrong concept." [J Morin] "Persistence only goes so far if you set yourself up for failure." [Kartman]

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Quote:
It is not a about the CVAVR price, it is about being FAIR, it is about a protection scheme that clearly does not protect CVAVR yet seriously affects those who have paid for it.

In an ideal world, programs would not get cracked. The vendors would make a better living.

Quote:
We are suposed to trust Pavel but he cannot trust us.

In my experience, HPInfotech will help their license holders through any difficulties.

Quote:
It is about hiding libraries, better fully documented code is available free on the net.

You can read the ASM code if you want. Or as with any C compiler, use your own libraries. You may need to avoid certain names.

One of the attractions of CV is that the library code works, has documentation and examples.

Yes, there are other sources of code that require trawling the internet. And quite often need some correction.

It is up to a vendor to choose his business terms. Pavel's model seems to provide 'added features' at regular intervals. So if you want the latest GLCD libraries or Xmega Wizard, you need to keep up to date.
OTOH, you can compile many mega32 projects with an ancient version.

David.

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Quote:

I don't hold grudges, so I don't know if you're one of them.

I'm one of what? Your grudges? ???

Quote:

It's also a little bit hard to find evidence as the moderator in question not only deletes posts that explicitly adresses his behavior - he'll even go in and stealthily edit not only his own posts, he'll even stealthily edit other people's quotes of his posts.

Wow--is this like in the main forum? I keep up with that pretty well. It is strange that I wouldn't notice context changes, and quotes being different, and similar. This is VERY sinister behaviour, and obviously has touched you deeply.

I looked at your linked thread and it must be real stealthy 'cause I don't see it.

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

I've never met a pig I didn't like, as long as you have some salt and pepper.

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Quote:

And for ANYONE levelling slander towards any moderator REMEMBER: The job is yours, at least mine can be. I'm sure anyone can do a better job.

Wow.

-- As I remember, "slander" is spoken and "libel" is written. Does that get blurred on an online forum?
-- As I remember, "slander" and "libel" only refer to falsities.

I'm losing the rest of it after the "slander" mentions and referrals to prior mentions. A Forum search uncovers no recent uses of that word.

But that is even more evidence of re-written history, eh? 1984 and Big Brother and all that?

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

I've never met a pig I didn't like, as long as you have some salt and pepper.

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js wrote:
Quote:
his labelling my concern as "slander" raises another issue - moderators are beyond criticism no matter what they do
Moderators are beyond UNFAIR criticism. If Johan had any problem with Cliff editing his post then he would have complained loudly as he has done in the past.

How can you tell it's unfair when you are not even trying to understand what I'm saying ?

Johan's post was just an example of completely unnecessary use of moderator privileges. As you can see, Johan himself had trouble seeing that his own post had in fact been edited - even when he was looking for a post that was supposed to have been "openly" edited by a moderator.

In that particular case it is not a huge problem because the moderator owns up to it, but it is a problem that he will use his privilege when it's not called for - and I'm telling you that he has also used it to cover up his own mistakes by stealthily modifying his own post as well as other people's quote of that post.

js wrote:
One reason why I and other moderators sign our changes to some posts is so that everyone can see who has done what, if Cliff or anyone else wanted to do things in "stealth" then one would do changes without pointing out the changes or being the one who has done the changes.

That is exactly the issue I'm bringing to your attention. It is not always "signed" and there is no way to see that a post has been edited by the moderator when he decides to abuse his powers.

js wrote:
As I said above anyone who feels that he/she will do a better job, and that quite easily be so, is free to apply to be a moderator. If there are no spots left they can have mine. :)

I'm not after your "jobs" here. I would like to see the moderators behave ethically, though.

theusch wrote:
This is VERY sinister behaviour, and obviously has touched you deeply.

I looked at your linked thread and it must be real stealthy 'cause I don't see it.


Of course you can't see it. That's what I was saying - he abused his privileges to make untrackable changes. And when I posted about it, he deleted my posts.

Anyway, this is just one symptom of the attitude new people face around here. It's a little bit more extreme, but otherwise fits with the general "message" the new guy usually gets if he dares to answer a question (and sometimes even for having the nerve to ask one).

Sid

Life... is a state of mind

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Quote:

Of course you can't see it. That's what I was saying - he abused his privileges to make untrackable changes.

But usually the context changes. Indirect references and such.

Gotta dig out that copy of '1984'...

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

I've never met a pig I didn't like, as long as you have some salt and pepper.

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Quote:

Johan himself had trouble seeing that his own post had in fact been edited - even when he was looking for a post that was supposed to have been "openly" edited by a moderator.

Wrong. Just as bad, or even worse, than being edited is having words put in ones mouth.

I said I could not find it. Not that I could not spot it once I was looking at the post - at that time it was obvious where the edit was.

When I was looking I simply followed the link, and then told my browser to look for "Last edited" in that page. Nothing came out that looked like a post of mine that had been edited.

You don't like Cliff. Fine. But don't spin things I wrote to support your case.

As of January 15, 2018, Site fix-up work has begun! Now do your part and report any bugs or deficiencies here

No guarantees, but if we don't report problems they won't get much of  a chance to be fixed! Details/discussions at link given just above.

 

"Some questions have no answers."[C Baird] "There comes a point where the spoon-feeding has to stop and the independent thinking has to start." [C Lawson] "There are always ways to disagree, without being disagreeable."[E Weddington] "Words represent concepts. Use the wrong words, communicate the wrong concept." [J Morin] "Persistence only goes so far if you set yourself up for failure." [Kartman]

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JohanEkdahl wrote:
Quote:

Johan himself had trouble seeing that his own post had in fact been edited - even when he was looking for a post that was supposed to have been "openly" edited by a moderator.

Wrong. Just as bad, or even worse, than being edited is having words put in ones mouth.

I said I could not find it. Not that I could not spot it once I was looking at the post - at that time it was obvious where the edit was.


I misunderstood what you wrote, then, when you wrote
JohanEkdahl wrote:
I might be blind, but I can not see where any moderator edited someone elses post in that thread.

I certainly didn't mean to claim you said something you didn't say. Why on earth would I want to do that ? Anybody can see what you said anyway.

JohanEkdahl wrote:
When I was looking I simply followed the link, and then told my browser to look for "Last edited" in that page. Nothing came out that looked like a post of mine that had been edited.

That is a good illustration of that part of the problem.

JohanEkdahl wrote:
You don't like Cliff.

Now you're putting words in my mouth. I don't dislike Cliff. He is very skilled and he gives good advice a lot of the time.

I do have a problem with a small part of his behavior, though, and I have stated what the problem is. He doesn't have to apologize or anything, but I think he should stop this highly unethical behavior.

I also think a bigger part of the "establishment" here should think about how their behavior may be experienced by newcomers. The community doesn't gain anything when people are discouraged from asking or answering questions.

JohanEkdahl wrote:
Fine. But don't spin things I wrote to support your case.

I didn't mean to do that, I don't see that I did that, and I generally don't operate like that.

It actually seems like you are trying to spin around my misunderstanding to support some other case.

Sid

Life... is a state of mind

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Ok now, can we please move on with the rest of our lives? :-)

John Samperi

Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.

www.ampertronics.com.au

* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly

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Boy see what happens when you go away for a few days holiday/work in Ireland! I should have felt my ears burning I guess but thankfully they are pretty good at filtering pointless noise ;-)

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The thread has been split from the original post https://www.avrfreaks.net/index.p...

For various reasons I got the short straw of doing the dirty hack. :) Not very confident but I don't think I deleted any posts, if I did I apologise.

John Samperi

Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.

www.ampertronics.com.au

* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly

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Quote:
Ok now, can we please move on with the rest of our lives?
+1

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jabram wrote:
Just my opinion, the fee is not reasonable, then on top of that there is the yearly fee just to get bug fixes and obtain what you thought you already paid for many times over but what you get is buggy or simply has things missing which you wont get unless you keep paying yearly edited, everyone happy now.

Well, if you will look at the compiler's revision history: http://www.hpinfotech.ro/html/cv... , you will nottice, that in each version there are mostly additions of new libraries (graphic LCDs, etc.), support for new chips released by Atmel and improvements to the code optimizer.
If you don't want to pay an yearly support fee for this, it is no problem.
You can write these libraries by yourself or search the net, maybe you can find some free ones, of good quality, with no bugs and 24 hour tech. support from their authors.

Regarding the unpleasant problems that you had, as a licensed user, with CodeVisionAVR or tech support, please provide some concrete facts.

Pavel Haiduc
HP InfoTech