Universal Programming of Mega88P vs. Mega88V?

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Does anyone know if the programming profile is identical between the ATMega88P and Mega88V?

I'm going to start a project and as a good designer, won't use the (V) part as it is not recommended for new design.

My programmer has device support for the Mega88V, but not for the Mega88P.

I suppose I could just order some and try it. :?

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I remember that i had see an application note on Avr.com for the difference between ATEMGA88 and ATMEGA88V and P.

I don't know if it would help you but maybe well....

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Do the datasheets show any difference in the protocol?

Quote:
as a good designer
that might be the first place I looked.

[Hint: you can use them interchangeably. signatures are the same. there might be additional fuses but the datasheets and the migration note should cover that.]

Lee

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

I've never met a pig I didn't like, as long as you have some salt and pepper.

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theusch wrote:
Do the datasheets show any difference in the protocol?
Quote:
as a good designer
that might be the first place I looked.

[Hint: you can use them interchangeably. signatures are the same. there might be additional fuses but the datasheets and the migration note should cover that.]

Lee

Why bother answering a question with a question if you have no intention of being helpful?

Chances are, someone out there has used a universal programmer to program a Mega88P. If so, they either used a profile specific to that part or a compatible one.

There really is no harm in asking a simple straightforward question. If someone knows the answer, they can answer in a few words. If not, they can move on - no need to clutter the forum with mightier-than-thou drivel.

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Quote:

Why bother answering a question with a question if you have no intention of being helpful?

Why bother asking a question that we may/probably need to look up in the datasheet, and quote the chapter and verse, when you haven't bothered? Without the chapter and verse, would you just take the word of any respondent? OK, here goes: If you are now ISP programming a Mega88V and you switch to a Mega88P might as well toss your ISP equipment into the trash, 'cause P & V don't mix.

Lee

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

I've never met a pig I didn't like, as long as you have some salt and pepper.

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theusch wrote:
Why bother asking a question that we may/probably need to look up in the datasheet, and quote the chapter and verse, when you haven't bothered?

You miss the point. The point is, you are not the only game in town theusch. You have no business using the term "WE" as if when you don't know the answer, then noone does.

I don't remember asking if someone would please read the datasheet for me and give me a clip of the pertinent sections. I asked if anyone knew if the profiles are compatible. Why do you see it as so unlikely that someone would know the answer? It's because you can't fathom that someone would know something you don't. (I chuckle about that quietly to myself.)

theusch wrote:

would you just take the word of any respondent?

Of course I would. If someone said: "I've used the Needham's EMP-3000, with the profile for ATMEGA88V along with a ASM32QFP socket to program the Mega88P." I would believe it. Why would anyone lie about that?

Your reference to ISP programming in your example response indicates you have no idea what a universal programmer even is. Of course I would not give any credibility to such an obviously uninformed, and frankly, irrelevant response.

There is no law that you have to make a comment in every thread. If you don't have something constructive to share, don't share. Next time, just think to yourself, "will anyone on the planet see any value in my reply? or, will it just feed my post count?" It seems that is your objective because so many of the posts from you serve no other useful purpose - this based on my brief review of your recent "contributions" in the general forum.

Grow up or give up.

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Quote:

you have no idea what a universal programmer even is.

Right. So I'll just respond
Quote:
might as well toss your ISP equipment into the trash, 'cause P & V don't mix.

and from your side
Quote:
Of course I would.

Lee

[speaking of datasheets, you'd think if one were relying on the universal programmer as the keystone of operations then it would be the first stop to look at the supported-devices list, and/or go to the manuf. Web site/support. But I'm just an old bit jockey and have no clue, and am just bumping my post count.]

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

I've never met a pig I didn't like, as long as you have some salt and pepper.

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theusch wrote:
[speaking of datasheets, you'd think if one were relying on the universal programmer as the keystone of operations then it would be the first stop to look at the supported-devices list, and/or go to the manuf. Web site/support.]

That is exactly the problem. The ATMEGAx8P does not show up as a supported device (the Mega88V does though). If it did, there would be no point asking if an alternate profile could be used for that device. One would just choose the profile for the supported device. :D

Of course I can get support from the programmer MFG. But, they are experts on programmers. FREAKS are experts on AVRs. I picked the wrong way to skin the cat.

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Class88 wrote:
Does anyone know if the programming profile is identical between the ATMega88P and Mega88V?

I'm going to start a project and as a good designer, won't use the (V) part as it is not recommended for new design.


As a good designer you should know that ATmega88P is also a mature product not recommended for new designs!
Both ATmega88/88V and ATmega88P/88PV has been replaced by ATmega88PA: http://atmel.com/dyn/products/de...
Quote:
ATmega88 Not recommended for new designs. Replaced by ATmega88PA
ATmega88P Not recommended for new designs. Replaced by ATmega88PA

ATmega88PA covers the whole frequnecy and supply voltage range from 1.8V to 5.5V in once device, unlike 88/88V and 88P/88PV.

Read the AVR Migration Notes.
AVR512: Migration from ATmega48/88/168 to ATmega48P/88P/168P
AVR528: Migrating from ATmega48/88 and ATmega48P/88P to ATmega48PA/88PA

Last Edited: Thu. May 14, 2009 - 09:14 PM
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AndersAnd wrote:
As a good designer you should know that ATmega88P is also a mature product not recommended for new designs!
Both ATmega88/88V and ATmega88P/88PV has been replaced by ATmega88PA

I'm sure I'm probably wrong somehow, but it's starting to seem to me that my question should have been regarding the profiles of the Mega88PA and Mega88V.

While the Mega88PA is actually a unique part and has its own datasheet separate from the Mega88P, I had thought the "A" was just a die rev designator. Pretty dumb of me huh? :oops:

For anyone interested, the migration notes are completely silent as to any differences in the programming of FLASH, EE, or FUSE bits between the "P" and "PA" parts. I'm not saying that's proof that there are no differences, but it is one point to consider.

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88PA seems to be just a new die process with lower power consumption and covering the whole frequnecy and supply voltage range of 88P and 88PV combined in one device. There's should be no programming differencies between 88P, 88PV and 88PA, so you should be able to use the same program hex file for these 3 devices.

But from 88/88V to 88P/88PV + 88PA register bits has been added:
AVR512: Migration from ATmega48/88/168 to ATmega48P/88P/168P

Quote:
3 Register and bit names

Between ATmega48/88/168 and ATmega48P/88P/168P some register bits has been added, but none of the existing bits has been removed, nor moved to different locations.

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About the only thing that varies between ISP on different parts is the page size. As they are all 8K parts I'd be astonished if the datasheets told you that they had differing page sizes. The only other thing that might stop a programmer from programming one or other device is if it does a signature check at the start of the process (like avrdude). If it does then either quell this behaviour with a command line option or edit the avrdude.conf to change the part description (do similar in whatever other programming software you may use)

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Quote:

...I'd be astonished if the datasheets told you...

Tread very lightly, Cliff, in recommending referring to the datasheet(s).

Lee

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

I've never met a pig I didn't like, as long as you have some salt and pepper.

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theusch wrote:
Quote:

...I'd be astonished if the datasheets told you...

Tread very lightly, Cliff, in recommending referring to the datasheet(s).

Lee


theusch, if you do not recognize the difference between clawson's response/approach and yours, then you are even more clueless than even I suspected.

clawson's response was mature, respectful, and intent on being helpful.

Yours was the opposite (juvenile, insolent, and intent on being condescending).

Even with it spelled out, I doubt you can see the difference. Self absorption is a pretty effective muffler of criticism.

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Quote:

clawson's response was mature, respectful, and intent on being helpful

Is this the point where I get to say "Na na, ni, na na" at Lee ? :lol:

Actually I agree totally with Lee, these questions could be answered by reading the datasheet alone. Each gives a full algorithmic description of the ISP process (see "serial programming") all one (which could be OP, Lee or me) need do is read both and play one of those "spot the difference" competitions. If no differences are evident I think you could conclude that a programmer that could program one could also program the other with the proviso of the signature fuse check I mentioned. Sure the process of comparing datasheets may be a bit arduous which is, I guess, why neither Lee nor I would want to do it!

What's that phrase my physic's teacher always used to use? Ah yes, "LEER = Left as an Easy Exercise for the Reader"

Cliff

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What a tempest in a teapot. As the chips are readily available, toss a couple on the next order from a disti, or request a couple samples. In due time the chips are in-hand, and try it out. The mention of the universal programmer and similar implies an organization larger than a hobbyist working off a dresser top; thus I'd conclude established buying chains.

Lee

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

I've never met a pig I didn't like, as long as you have some salt and pepper.

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What I expected:

A stray MFG Engineer snooping on the design engineers, just to see how the other half lives wrote:
yep, we've programmed both parts. For some reason, nobody has deployed a profile for the Mega88PA, but the profile for the Megaxxx is equivalent logic level and speed wise, just ignore the signature warning, etc.

Or, maybe

Someone who's 'been there, done that wrote:
If you do it, you'll brick the part. You need to have BPMicrosystems send you a beta that has support for that device.

What I got:

clawson wrote:
these questions could be answered by reading the datasheet alone

. . .

What's that phrase my physic's teacher always used to use? Ah yes, "LEER = Left as an Easy Exercise for the Reader"

theusch wrote:
Do the datasheets show any difference in the protocol?

I don't object to those suggestions, just the tone. I now get that you are use to dealing with students, hobbyists, and the like. I see how years of that could cause some cynicism. But I don't see why you would do it if it makes you bitter. Unless of course you take joy in berating those you consider beneath you.

Do you realize that EVERY post to these forums could be answered that way? It could even be automated.

Have a bot, do the reply.

printf("Just read the ");
if (Post.Contains.IC_Part_Number) printf("datasheet, ");
if (Post.Contains.Code) printf("GCC documentation, ");
if (Post.Contains.Any_Other) printf("basic semiconductor textbook,  ");
printf( "MFG www site, app notes, and all erratas.");

That would free you up to do more important things (believe it or not, there are more important things.)

I know that I can get support elsewhere. This forum was suggested to me as a way to ask questions that might best be answered by those experienced with Atmel AVRs. I am more used to dealing with professionals for support. They generally do not have a lot of experience in truly "using" the products they support. I suppose every resource has its place. I tried to misapply this one. I'll give it a rest now.

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Class88, can you please give me the phone number of your Mom?

I want to call her to tell her that she forgot to pick you up from kindergarten where you happened to play with the computers.

Stealing Proteus doesn't make you an engineer.

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Rant on. What part of

Quote:
[Hint: you can use them interchangeably. signatures are the same. there might be additional fuses but the datasheets and the migration note should cover that.]

is any different than the "good" example answers you gave above?

If you'd given a hint that you'd actually done any datasheet digging such as comparing signatures and fuse maps, and then pose a particular question on an unclear detail,then Cliff and I and others here that like "puzzles" and have used/are using the models in question would have some impetus to do the datasheet digging ourselves on that particular point.

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

I've never met a pig I didn't like, as long as you have some salt and pepper.

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ArnoldB wrote:
Class88, can you please give me the phone number of your Mom?

I want to call her to tell her that she forgot to pick you up from kindergarten where you happened to play with the computers.

Call her if you want, she won't tell me to stop playing computer. She lets me do whatever I want. She always has. That is why I don't have any self control.

How did you know I teach kindergarten?

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theusch wrote:
Rant on. What part of
Quote:
[Hint: you can use them interchangeably. signatures are the same. there might be additional fuses but the datasheets and the migration note should cover that.]

is any different than the "good" example answers you gave above?

You are absolutely right theusch, that part of your original response is good in that although it doesn't go toward answering the question, it is a hint toward the possibility that they could be compatible. As I said, I objected to the tone. Had that quote been the only thing in the response, we wouldn't be here now.

Quote:
If you'd given a hint that you'd actually done any datasheet digging such as comparing signatures and fuse maps, and then pose a particular question on an unclear detail,then Cliff and I and others here that like "puzzles" and have used/are using the models in question would have some impetus to do the datasheet digging ourselves on that particular point.

I wouldn't dream of asking for someone to read or interpret the datasheet for me. Only to share any first hand experience that they might have.

I don't really feel too bad about burning this bridge. I've made it through a couple of AVR designs by reading datasheets. I'm sure I'll get through the next couple the same way. I don't get into the 8bit world very often and when I do it is generally pretty straightforward stuff.

Well, back to finger painting for me. I hope mom doesn't get mad that I got yellow all over the keyboard. I'm sure Arnold will tell on me. He's such a snitcher. I'll be glad when he grows up a bit.