Things I dislike in AS5 after a week

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Been using AS5 for a week or so now. Here are some things I've come to dislike:

1) The editor is slow intermittently. I can easily out-type it sometimes, leading to a very unpleasant experience when you feel that you typed wrong, do a few backspaces and then look up..

2) It takes 80 seconds to start.

3) Stepping with the Dragon in debugWire mode is extremely slow. Example: This line
if ((SWITCHES_PIN & (1<<SWITCH_PIN_NUMBER)) != previousState)
takes about 7 seconds to execute (step over). Stepping a "really trivial" line of code (eg something that should generate more or less a single instruction, takes a second or so! That is just plain ridicolous. I can not recall that doing debugWire in AS4 was that sluggish.

4) In the AVR Programming dialogue, in the Fuses page, in the combo box for SUT_CKSEL - instead of a proper readout of the options as in AS4 there are some gobledygook that I will have to turn to the data sheet to decode. And the combo-box closed is not wide enough to show a complete selection (where everything is more or less significant) while there is ample space in the dialogue for it to be wide enough (that is just sloppy UI design. Designing UIs should be left to UI experts, not application programmers).

5) Try resizing the whole AS5 window. Extremely sluggish - I'm talking seconds to react, resize and repaint.

6) Perhaps not AS5-related: I just experienced one hour of hell when I tried to get my ATmega88 (actually sitting on an STK-500, but the STK-500 ISP header attached to a Dragon) out of debugWire. I know of the mess with having to remove the STK-500 Reset strap for debugWire, but needing it in place for ISP. And I know how to get out of debugWire the proper way (by selecting to disable it in the Debug menu). It just wouldn't bite. I needed to get out of debugWire to look at the clock selection fuses, but for two hours I failed repeatedly. Then suddenly, when disabling debugWire, I got four or five cycles of USB-disconnect and -connect sounds, and it suddenly worked. It is truly sad that there is no way to handle fuses in debugWire.

7) There is no shortcut to the AVR Programming dialogue, and when you get to it you have to Apply the Tool selection every time. In AS4 the programing dialogue could be left open, so after re-building it was a one-click job to program the device. In this respect AS5 is "a regression".

One thing I like: The ability to type in a filter for the device selection listing for a project.

One other thing I like: AnkhSVN works in AS5. :)

As of January 15, 2018, Site fix-up work has begun! Now do your part and report any bugs or deficiencies here

No guarantees, but if we don't report problems they won't get much of  a chance to be fixed! Details/discussions at link given just above.

 

"Some questions have no answers."[C Baird] "There comes a point where the spoon-feeding has to stop and the independent thinking has to start." [C Lawson] "There are always ways to disagree, without being disagreeable."[E Weddington] "Words represent concepts. Use the wrong words, communicate the wrong concept." [J Morin] "Persistence only goes so far if you set yourself up for failure." [Kartman]

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Quote:
Then suddenly, when disabling debugWire, I got four or five cycles of USB-disconnect and -connect sounds, and it suddenly worked.

If you can tell us how you achieved this, it would be very useful.

It is this feature of AS5 that is the most frightening. Enabling / disabling debugWire with a JTAGICE-mkII works beautifully. IME it does not work at all with a Dragon.

I could live with the upgrade / downgrade of the Dragon if only you could use a command line tool. I would have thought that any AS5 development that changes firmware should have command line tools released at the same time.

Yes. We could easily gain some experience with AS5 if we were inclined to use it. Meanwhile it is up to newbies to discover all the 'features'.

David.

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Quote:

We could easily gain some experience with AS5 if we were inclined to use it.

Since I can not run AS4 with success any more (it crashes violently whenever I stop debugging) I have been more or less forced to adopt AS5. All in all it is a less than pleasant experience, especially when I am forced to it.

It's been months since we heard anytrhing from the AS5 team. My current conspiracy theory is that AS6 is in the makings... :evil:

As of January 15, 2018, Site fix-up work has begun! Now do your part and report any bugs or deficiencies here

No guarantees, but if we don't report problems they won't get much of  a chance to be fixed! Details/discussions at link given just above.

 

"Some questions have no answers."[C Baird] "There comes a point where the spoon-feeding has to stop and the independent thinking has to start." [C Lawson] "There are always ways to disagree, without being disagreeable."[E Weddington] "Words represent concepts. Use the wrong words, communicate the wrong concept." [J Morin] "Persistence only goes so far if you set yourself up for failure." [Kartman]

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(3) what happens if you mix C+Asm and step the opcodes?

BTW could you not run XP VM or something and install a fresh AS4 into it?

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Quote:

BTW could you not run XP VM or something

I've reinstalled my whole machine for several times (or rather, returned it to the state right after the original install by rolling in a disk image) and that does not help. I suspect my problems are connected to something like drivers or some such.

Apart from that, no - I can not run XP in a VM. I have no license/key for XP. My HP came with Vista, but w/o install media. Instead it was one of those "install to hard disk from hard disk" arrangements.

I will never again buy a PC w/o getting Windows install media with it, if at all possible.

Quote:
what happens if you mix C+Asm and step the opcodes?

I just can not roster the energy right now to try that out. Honestly, if it weren't for you guys, and all the stuff in the drawers and cupboards, I'd be off into Xpresso-land faster than you could say "platform independence" or "working OCD" or "open boilerplate IDE"... :wink:

As of January 15, 2018, Site fix-up work has begun! Now do your part and report any bugs or deficiencies here

No guarantees, but if we don't report problems they won't get much of  a chance to be fixed! Details/discussions at link given just above.

 

"Some questions have no answers."[C Baird] "There comes a point where the spoon-feeding has to stop and the independent thinking has to start." [C Lawson] "There are always ways to disagree, without being disagreeable."[E Weddington] "Words represent concepts. Use the wrong words, communicate the wrong concept." [J Morin] "Persistence only goes so far if you set yourself up for failure." [Kartman]

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Quote:

I suspect my problems are connected to something like drivers or some such.

Hence my suggestion to use a VM - so the Windows installation starts "clean".

I thought Vista (maybe only Pro?) had a built in XP VM mode?

EDIT: I'm wrong - it's "7" not Vista that has the XP VM:

http://www.microsoft.com/windows...

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Now you've got me scared. I'm still using AS4, but I downloaded AS5 and haven't yet used it. Am I to read this as using AS5 will permanently break AS4?

I really wanted AS5 to work because I use C# and .NET and thought I'd be able to add stuff to it, but I'm afraid to even run it. Not good folks.

Smiley

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Were you not given the option to make a backup on DVD of your OS during install? Or, am I misunderstanding....

[quote="JohanEkdahl.

Apart from that, no - I can not run XP in a VM. I have no license/key for XP. My HP came with Vista, but w/o install media. Instead it was one of those "install to hard disk from hard disk" arrangements.

I will never again buy a PC w/o getting Windows install media with it, if at all possible.
:

Gary - W4GNS
Tel: BR549

In my many years I have come to a conclusion that one useless man is a shame, two is a law firm and three or more is a congress. -- John Adams

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Quote:

Now you've got me scared. I'm still using AS4, but I downloaded AS5 and haven't yet used it. Am I to read this as using AS5 will permanently break AS4?

No, you are not. My AS4 was broken before I installed AS5. It was the broken AS4 that forced me to move to AS5 in the first place.

Quote:

Were you not given the option to make a backup on DVD of your OS during install? Or, am I misunderstanding....

No, I got that option and used it. I also used a 3rd party s/w for disk imaging that I had access to at that time. It is that image (on a DVD) that I roll in whenever my Windoze install gets thrashed, or just so bloated with stuff that just gets left after uninstall that I need a cleanup.

But I can not redo the install per se, selecting other options. The image is not of the install media, but of the media where Windows was installed.

As of January 15, 2018, Site fix-up work has begun! Now do your part and report any bugs or deficiencies here

No guarantees, but if we don't report problems they won't get much of  a chance to be fixed! Details/discussions at link given just above.

 

"Some questions have no answers."[C Baird] "There comes a point where the spoon-feeding has to stop and the independent thinking has to start." [C Lawson] "There are always ways to disagree, without being disagreeable."[E Weddington] "Words represent concepts. Use the wrong words, communicate the wrong concept." [J Morin] "Persistence only goes so far if you set yourself up for failure." [Kartman]

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I have had a very bad evening with AS5 + Dragon. Things have been far from stable re enabling/disabling debugWire. The "best" thing happened just two minutes ago. I had these two messages appearing on the screen at virtually the same time w/o me touching anything.:

Attachment(s): 

As of January 15, 2018, Site fix-up work has begun! Now do your part and report any bugs or deficiencies here

No guarantees, but if we don't report problems they won't get much of  a chance to be fixed! Details/discussions at link given just above.

 

"Some questions have no answers."[C Baird] "There comes a point where the spoon-feeding has to stop and the independent thinking has to start." [C Lawson] "There are always ways to disagree, without being disagreeable."[E Weddington] "Words represent concepts. Use the wrong words, communicate the wrong concept." [J Morin] "Persistence only goes so far if you set yourself up for failure." [Kartman]

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Maybe I should rethink about downloading AS5 after 12 months of release, I'll try in 24 months. :-)

Quote:
It was the broken AS4 that forced me to move to AS5 in the first place.
IT DOES NOT COMPUTE!! MAIN COMPUTER BLOWING SMOKE....ALL BRAIN CELL EXPLODED... :lol:

John Samperi

Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.

www.ampertronics.com.au

* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly

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Quote:

IT DOES NOT COMPUTE!!

Just to be clear. I am not saying that AS4 is generally broken. It just stopped working for me on the laptop where I do AVR work. AS4 has served me well for many years. It just suddenly stopped working, crashing violently every time I stopped debugging. I have tried to fix this by rolling back my Windoze install to it's original state (and then spending half a day running Windows update), but it does not help. AS4 just stopped working. For me. So I had to get some other solution for running the AVR Simulator and using my Dragon. The only reasonable option I had was to go to AS5.

-----

Re the sluggishness of the editor: If one turns off Visual Assist X the editor starts acting as any editor, rather than mimicking an old teletype.

-----

Here's another thing I dislike: Every time I start AS5 it nags me (in the system tray area) that I can install some new version of Windows Automation API. I don't want to do that right now, but can not for my life make Studio shut up about this. I do not get an option in the nag message to not get nagged again. Grrrrrr... I suppose that this is actually not Atmel but MS doing the nagging, but I still dislike it.

-----

Guess what: A lot of the sluggishness when resizing the AS5 window also goes away when disabling Visual Assist X. :(

As of January 15, 2018, Site fix-up work has begun! Now do your part and report any bugs or deficiencies here

No guarantees, but if we don't report problems they won't get much of  a chance to be fixed! Details/discussions at link given just above.

 

"Some questions have no answers."[C Baird] "There comes a point where the spoon-feeding has to stop and the independent thinking has to start." [C Lawson] "There are always ways to disagree, without being disagreeable."[E Weddington] "Words represent concepts. Use the wrong words, communicate the wrong concept." [J Morin] "Persistence only goes so far if you set yourself up for failure." [Kartman]

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Quote:

If one turns off Visual Assist X

AFAICS that was the only reason for Atmel licensing MS VS in the first place - so that's a bit sad :-(

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Quote:

AFAICS that was the only reason for Atmel licensing MS VS in the first place

Really? VA is by no means the only solution for doing such stuff. The alternatives are on cross-platform IDEs though, and those are prohibited at Atmel for some reason...

As of January 15, 2018, Site fix-up work has begun! Now do your part and report any bugs or deficiencies here

No guarantees, but if we don't report problems they won't get much of  a chance to be fixed! Details/discussions at link given just above.

 

"Some questions have no answers."[C Baird] "There comes a point where the spoon-feeding has to stop and the independent thinking has to start." [C Lawson] "There are always ways to disagree, without being disagreeable."[E Weddington] "Words represent concepts. Use the wrong words, communicate the wrong concept." [J Morin] "Persistence only goes so far if you set yourself up for failure." [Kartman]

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Oh I agree but what else can you think of in MS VS that sets it apart from other IDEs? In fact I find Intellisense to be far inferior to SourceInsight so if they just wanted a decent source browsing editor they could have gone to many other places.

In fact the more I think about it the more I can only assume someone at Amtel has a good golf handicap ;-)

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Try to update your video drivers. Someone from AS5 team said that VS2010 depends on video card performance to display correctly. It may help on the sluggishness.

Felipe Maimon

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Quote:
In fact I find Intellisense to be far inferior
I find such things EXTREMELY ANNOYING and the best feature would be for it to be turned off.

It usually second guesses WRONGLY what I'm trying to do, an insult to MY Intellisense.

John Samperi

Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.

www.ampertronics.com.au

* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly

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I have just the opposite experience, John. The thing I am after is often available in the list after typing just a few characters.

I also like refactoring functionality in modern IDEs, stuff like renaming something, breaing out to function etc.

And context searches like "Go to definition" and "Find all references" are extremely useful.

It's just sad that Visual Assist hogs AVR Studio 5 down so much that it becomes a PITA.

As of January 15, 2018, Site fix-up work has begun! Now do your part and report any bugs or deficiencies here

No guarantees, but if we don't report problems they won't get much of  a chance to be fixed! Details/discussions at link given just above.

 

"Some questions have no answers."[C Baird] "There comes a point where the spoon-feeding has to stop and the independent thinking has to start." [C Lawson] "There are always ways to disagree, without being disagreeable."[E Weddington] "Words represent concepts. Use the wrong words, communicate the wrong concept." [J Morin] "Persistence only goes so far if you set yourself up for failure." [Kartman]

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Quote:

Here's another thing I dislike: Every time I start AS5 it nags me (in the system tray area) that I can install some new version of Windows Automation API. I don't want to do that right now, but can not for my life make Studio shut up about this.

The reason Visual Studio is complaining about that is that the Automation API fixes performance issues on some systems with Intellisense (see http://support.microsoft.com/kb/...). If Visual Assist uses the editor's native Intellisense APIs, you might fix your issues with it by installing it.

- Dean :twisted:

Make Atmel Studio better with my free extensions. Open source and feedback welcome!

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I've given in and cloned one of my XP VMs with a view to installing AS5 - only problem now is "56 minutes until download completes" - hope it's worth it!

(I had an install file but it's beta2 and I guess I need to use the final release)

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Quote:

only problem now is "56 minutes until download completes" - hope it's worth it!

Of yoy plan to use AS5 with WinAVR-20100110 there is an AS5 download sans the AVR Toolchain. Half the d/l time approximately, I wager.

As of January 15, 2018, Site fix-up work has begun! Now do your part and report any bugs or deficiencies here

No guarantees, but if we don't report problems they won't get much of  a chance to be fixed! Details/discussions at link given just above.

 

"Some questions have no answers."[C Baird] "There comes a point where the spoon-feeding has to stop and the independent thinking has to start." [C Lawson] "There are always ways to disagree, without being disagreeable."[E Weddington] "Words represent concepts. Use the wrong words, communicate the wrong concept." [J Morin] "Persistence only goes so far if you set yourself up for failure." [Kartman]

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I didn't see that option here:

http://www.atmel.com/dyn/product...

Besides which as this will be isolated in a VM I think I want to get the "full experience" even if that means using the questionable toolchain.

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abcminiuser wrote:
Quote:

Here's another thing I dislike: Every time I start AS5 it nags me (in the system tray area) that I can install some new version of Windows Automation API. I don't want to do that right now, but can not for my life make Studio shut up about this.

:


There's a hint about changing an entry in the registry in the same article, this stops it from nagging every time http://support.microsoft.com/kb/...
[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\VisualStudio\10.0\General] "UIAOverride"=dword:00000001
Another nag - one should be able to configure the debug so that it only writes the code to flash if the image file was changed since the last write.
At the moment it always runs make before debugging.
Anyone know when the next release of AVR Studio 5 will come?

Jerry

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Quote:
Anyone know when the next release of AVR Studio 5 will come?

Atmel has learned that one should not give anticipated release dates (for hardware or software), when the ability to fulfill them is low. They seem to have a policy to keep quiet more or less until the actual release.

We've heard nothing about any next major or minor version of AVR Studio, AFAIK.

As of January 15, 2018, Site fix-up work has begun! Now do your part and report any bugs or deficiencies here

No guarantees, but if we don't report problems they won't get much of  a chance to be fixed! Details/discussions at link given just above.

 

"Some questions have no answers."[C Baird] "There comes a point where the spoon-feeding has to stop and the independent thinking has to start." [C Lawson] "There are always ways to disagree, without being disagreeable."[E Weddington] "Words represent concepts. Use the wrong words, communicate the wrong concept." [J Morin] "Persistence only goes so far if you set yourself up for failure." [Kartman]

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Oh sweet mother of God...

(though after OKing that it seems to be continuing - so no worries then?!?)

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OK, I'm almost embarrassed to admit this but what am I doing wrong here? I want to put the mouse on a symbol in a program, right click and "Go to Definition" or "Go To Declaration". It's simply there when I edit C/C++ for Win32 in VS2008. But AS5 just doesn't have this on its right click context menu?!?

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clawson wrote:
OK, I'm almost embarrassed to admit this but what am I doing wrong here? I want to put the mouse on a symbol in a program, right click and "Go to Definition" or "Go To Declaration". It's simply there when I edit C/C++ for Win32 in VS2008. But AS5 just doesn't have this on its right click context menu?!?

Your error is in assuming that if the function is not in right click menu, it doesn't exist. :P The shortcut is alt G; it is in the VAssistX menu.

Now, does somebody know how to make it jump directly to implementation?

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For completeness the following is the context menu in "vanilla" VS2010. So it does look like AS5 has "lost" possibly the most important options in the entire program?!?

EDIT: ah, just read the reply above which appeared while I was grabbing this screen shot. Wonder how, as a new user, I'm supposed to know to use Alt-G - surely you put the "important things" on the right-click context menu to make a program self-documenting - it's the first place a user is going to look isn't it? As you say the VA menu has "Goto implementation" but not the equivalent "Goto declaration"?

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As a user i found that having the 'Go to Definition' and 'Go to declaration' in right click is far better than any other shortcuts.

-Krishna Balan S

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Heroes are ordinary people with extraordinary commitment"

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JohanEkdahl wrote:
Quote:

We could easily gain some experience with AS5 if we were inclined to use it.

Since I can not run AS4 with success any more (it crashes violently whenever I stop debugging) I have been more or less forced to adopt AS5. All in all it is a less than pleasant experience, especially when I am forced to it.

It's been months since we heard anytrhing from the AS5 team. My current conspiracy theory is that AS6 is in the makings... :evil:

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Quote:

As you say the VA menu has "Goto implementation" but not the equivalent "Goto declaration"?

It has some kind of "find all", which will include the definition.

I haven't run Visual Studio 2010, so I assumed that MS had opted not to have C/C++ support for these kinds of tasks, and that Whole Tomato Software jumped in and offered Visual Assist. Now that you seem to point out that VS1020 has that stuff built in, I am even more flabbergasted over AVR Studio 5 - why on earth would you want to exchange the stuff built into Visual Studio for something inferior. Is there someone at Atmel that is on the hidden payroll of Whole Tomato? (I thought the descision makers where on the payroll of M$. Oh, they are palying double-fould and are on the payroll of both...? :wink:)

Cliff: In Visual Studio 2010, do you have refactoring support also (like "Rename" and "Break out to function" and stuff?)

I have got to say that while I was somewhat positively surprised for the first few days, AS5 is sinking like a rock for me.

Perhaps the most irritating is the extremely sluggish single stepping when debugging with a Dragon. The amount of traffic that seems to be generated when stepping over a not-to-complex if-statement is ridicolous - and it takes several seconds making single-stepping more or less useless. (AVR Dragon connected to an STK-500 with an ATmega88 running on an 8 MHz clock.)

I'll take a deep breath and install the Automation API some evenng to see if that helps with the sluggishness in the editor.

As of January 15, 2018, Site fix-up work has begun! Now do your part and report any bugs or deficiencies here

No guarantees, but if we don't report problems they won't get much of  a chance to be fixed! Details/discussions at link given just above.

 

"Some questions have no answers."[C Baird] "There comes a point where the spoon-feeding has to stop and the independent thinking has to start." [C Lawson] "There are always ways to disagree, without being disagreeable."[E Weddington] "Words represent concepts. Use the wrong words, communicate the wrong concept." [J Morin] "Persistence only goes so far if you set yourself up for failure." [Kartman]

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Quote:

wy on earth would you want to exchange the stuff built into Visual Studio for something inferior

But it's like the colour highlighting (so that #if disabled blocks are grey). As I've just verified, if I "#if 0" a block in AS5 it does not change colour and reading threads here tells me I need some add-on to get this FUNDAMENTAL feature back. Which again, kind of makes you wonder, if AS5 is all about eye-candy, why they took some of the most important of the eye-candy features in VS2008/2010 and discard them? I think Dean confirmed that these things are not part of the generic VS code (which Atmel have licensed) but are in specific language parsers which is not part of what Atmel have access to which does make you ask "so what DID they buy?!?"

Now I've started using it rather than glancing over the surface then my experience with VS2008/2010 (mainly 2008) is tainting my experience of AS5. I thought it would have all that those had (in fact being 2010 not 2008 - hopefully "more") but it seems the baby has been thrown out with the bath water.

I'm not straying beyond the simulator for the time being - I don't want firmware in things like my Dragon, STK500's, JTAGICEmkII being changed just yet!

EDIT: and another thing. In VS2008 (and 2010) if I right click the file named in a #include I can "Open Document xxx.h" - that's missing from the context menu in AS5 too?

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[rant] And more or less all of this they could have gotten "for free" with e.g. Eclipse or NetBeans... [/rant]

As of January 15, 2018, Site fix-up work has begun! Now do your part and report any bugs or deficiencies here

No guarantees, but if we don't report problems they won't get much of  a chance to be fixed! Details/discussions at link given just above.

 

"Some questions have no answers."[C Baird] "There comes a point where the spoon-feeding has to stop and the independent thinking has to start." [C Lawson] "There are always ways to disagree, without being disagreeable."[E Weddington] "Words represent concepts. Use the wrong words, communicate the wrong concept." [J Morin] "Persistence only goes so far if you set yourself up for failure." [Kartman]

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JohanEkdahl wrote:
[rant] And more or less all of this they could have gotten "for free" with e.g. Eclipse or NetBeans... [/rant]
So why are we dealing with this and not moving to Eclipse? Honest question.

Smiley

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In the past I've pointed at Eclipse as a reasonable all-purpose IDE. Last year I was convinced to give NetBeans another try, and compared to the ancient versions it really has grown IMO, to the pointy that this is what I'm slowly trying to switch to.

It is less "convoluted" than Eclipse. The only sad part is that they dropped Ruby support in the latest major version. The collection of available "plugins" might be smaller than for Eclipse.

My problem, re both Eclipse and NetBeans for AVR development, is that I do not know enough about what debugging solutions are possible. I've dropped some baits here in the past re what is possible, but had no real bites. To make this a worthwhile effort, we'd have to get somewhere near "Press Alt-Ctrl-F5 and your Dragon OCD session starts". It should support all "modern" source-code level debugging treats like "yellow arrow", breakpoints, watchpoints etc.

Is this at all possible? Does this require reverse-engineering Atmels proprietary debugging protocols? There is something called AVaRice, but I really never penetrated the info on it.

Someone would have to write a plugin to get an AVR-specific CPU registers view, an IO registers view etc.

(Last time I had a serious look I concluded that I could manage to write a programming plugin, tops (e.g. based on AVRdude code). Anything beyond that would not be feasible unless I win the lottery so I can tell the boss I'm leaving - and I don't buy any tickets..)

I'd appreciate any further light spread on the debugging scenario by anyone in the know!

If you just want an IDE for editing your sources, managing your build projects going from sources to the ELF and HEX etc, then this is not far away with either Eclipse or NetBeans. I tested an AVR plugin for the latter half a year ago or so, and IIRC it did the job. It just doesn't make sense to then switch over to any AVR Studio to do flash-programming/debugging.

And, as a hobbyist there is also the option to jump ship to another uC that offers all this and more from the start. LPCXpresso comes to mind. The flips side of that coin is the knowledge I have on AVRs, and my STKs, Dragons, USBKeys etc being shelved.

EDIT: My memory is weak re Netbeans+AVR, it seems. It was probably the C/C++ plugin I tested..

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Last Edited: Tue. Aug 30, 2011 - 08:05 PM
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Quote:

s that I do not know enough about what debugging solutions are possible.

Which is pretty much the whole issue - if Atmel would only make their JTAG/dW debugging protocols "open" then we could see some really good debuggers/IDEs. Something Dean said suggests that in AS5 there is a "break" between the front end and the backend - if that were anything like the GDB serial protocol (the one that's actually used mainly over TCP/IP) then it suggests the back end could be ued with other front ends - but only if Atmel cross compiled it to Linux .so files.

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I was sorely disappointed in all the stuff I've been hearing about AS5. I've got a lot of experience with C# and .NET and I thought it would be possible for me to consider making a plugin for AS5 to Arduino-ize it with a simple upload and reset via DTR. Now I don't think it is even worth further investigation.

It has been several years since I needed to use a debugger. All the code I've written lately has bootloader and a serial port and I insert output statements to bracket problems and so far I've been able to identify any glitch with this method. What with the extremely low cost of the this bootloader/serial-debug system, I'm beginning to wonder if it is ever likely that I'll even do another project where using a debugger makes sense. Is this just me or are do others have a valid need for a debugger?

Smiley

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Quote:

Is this just me or are do others have a valid need for a debugger?

Well JTAG/dW is always going to be "better" than serial/LEDs/LCD/whatever which relies on you putting in statements to show the right thing at the right moment as you can "sniff" any thing at any moment. But in the limited complexity of an AVR app maybe this doesn't matter.

It's certainly the case that once you have multiple, interacting threads of execution a JTAG becomes a virtual necessity but we often argue here that very little on an AVR ever reaches the level of complexity where a pre-emptive RTOS is unavoidable.

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Quote:

Is this just me or are do others have a valid need for a debugger?

I am a vivid user of debuggers, be it for e.g. work on Windows (C/C++/Win32/MFC or just console apps) or for e.g AVRs. Not only do I use it for actual debugging, but also very often just to ensure that my code "flows and acts" as I wanted. I'll admit that many colleagues has sighed when pair-programming with me.

Although I also user your method with "instrumentation" of the code, and output to anything from a LED, over an LCD to USARTs, I often find this awkward. When I work my way towards a problem I move breakpoints along, and just restart the app and let it run free up to the currently "farthest point of verified good behaviour" and then step from there. With "instrumentation" I will have to mess around in the code, rebuild, and for AVRs also re-flash.

I also love that I can watch a lot of variables at the same time in a debugger. Aside: In e.g. Visual Studio, I am a vivid user of "Set next instruction" - you gotta know what you're doing to get something useful out of that, though.. :wink:

Yes, my life would be poorer without debuggers. I know others think/function differently.

As of January 15, 2018, Site fix-up work has begun! Now do your part and report any bugs or deficiencies here

No guarantees, but if we don't report problems they won't get much of  a chance to be fixed! Details/discussions at link given just above.

 

"Some questions have no answers."[C Baird] "There comes a point where the spoon-feeding has to stop and the independent thinking has to start." [C Lawson] "There are always ways to disagree, without being disagreeable."[E Weddington] "Words represent concepts. Use the wrong words, communicate the wrong concept." [J Morin] "Persistence only goes so far if you set yourself up for failure." [Kartman]

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So Johan would you then say that the BS associated with AS5 is worth it so that you get access to the debuggers?

Smiley

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I see my frustration on the slow download and other 'crankies' as I call them are shared by others. Some of the stuff that was easy to find in AS4 has been hidden or phased out. I cannot find the checkbox for viewing external SRAM in the watch windows in the simulator or debug.

Jim

I would rather attempt something great and fail, than attempt nothing and succeed - Fortune Cookie

 

"The critical shortage here is not stuff, but time." - Johan Ekdahl

 

"Step N is required before you can do step N+1!" - ka7ehk

 

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Speak sweetly. It makes your words easier to digest when at a later date you have to eat them ;-)  - Source Unknown

Please Read: Code-of-Conduct

Atmel Studio6.2/AS7, DipTrace, Quartus, MPLAB, RSLogix user

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Quote:
So Johan would you then say that the BS associated with AS5 is worth it so that you get access to the debuggers?

After AS4 started crashing on me constantly as soon as I ended a debugging/Simulator session I had no other option than to move on to AS5. Someone from Trondheim showed some interest in my AS4 troubles but went MIA.

Would I say it was worth it? Between a rock and a hard place, I'd say that the jury is still out.

What is so frustrating is that AS4 worked for years for me, and then suddenly went belly-up and I can't understand why. I have rolled back to my original installation several times, but it ends up the same every time. I can't dare to run my XP w/o applying the hundreds of Windows Update things that has come out since, so whether it is such an update or something that happened in or around AS 4.17 or 4.18 is hard to tell.

I might be in the process of buying a new laptop, and if I do and get AS4 working on that one, I will definitively move back to AS4 until AS5 grows up.

Or preferably until AS6, based on NetBeans, running on more platforms than Windoze, surfaces. :wink:

As of January 15, 2018, Site fix-up work has begun! Now do your part and report any bugs or deficiencies here

No guarantees, but if we don't report problems they won't get much of  a chance to be fixed! Details/discussions at link given just above.

 

"Some questions have no answers."[C Baird] "There comes a point where the spoon-feeding has to stop and the independent thinking has to start." [C Lawson] "There are always ways to disagree, without being disagreeable."[E Weddington] "Words represent concepts. Use the wrong words, communicate the wrong concept." [J Morin] "Persistence only goes so far if you set yourself up for failure." [Kartman]

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clawson wrote:
OK, I'm almost embarrassed to admit this but what am I doing wrong here? I want to put the mouse on a symbol in a program, right click and "Go to Definition" or "Go To Declaration". It's simply there when I edit C/C++ for Win32 in VS2008. But AS5 just doesn't have this on its right click context menu?!?

You might be interested in that you can put Goto to Ctrl-Left-Click in the Virtual Assist X options under Advanced->General.

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Quote:

You might be interested in that you can put Goto to Ctrl-Left-Click in the Virtual Assist X options under Advanced->General.

Which to me seems to be another drawback of Visual Assist. What if there are two things you want to be able to do with e g an identifier in an editor window. This is exactly what context menues are made for.

As of January 15, 2018, Site fix-up work has begun! Now do your part and report any bugs or deficiencies here

No guarantees, but if we don't report problems they won't get much of  a chance to be fixed! Details/discussions at link given just above.

 

"Some questions have no answers."[C Baird] "There comes a point where the spoon-feeding has to stop and the independent thinking has to start." [C Lawson] "There are always ways to disagree, without being disagreeable."[E Weddington] "Words represent concepts. Use the wrong words, communicate the wrong concept." [J Morin] "Persistence only goes so far if you set yourself up for failure." [Kartman]

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JohanEkdahl wrote:
Which to me seems to be another drawback of Visual Assist. What if there are two things you want to be able to do with e g an identifier in an editor window. This is exactly what context menues are made for.

Isn't that a little bit far fetched to describe it as a drawback when you can enable that behavior in an option menu?

Yes, sure it would be better if I could additionally put it in the editor context menu. But I can live with Ctrl-Click.

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Quote:

Isn't that a little bit far fetched

No, I do not think so. In any environment supporting context menues, I'd like every such menu to have the ability to be customized so that I can opt in or out any operation I want to see. Or the other way around, for every possible operation I'd like to be able to control which context menue(s) it should occur in. For this to be useable this implies some kind of class hierarchy of object types.

And yes, this extreme is utopic.

For something in between see e.g. TortoiseSVN - where you can select what occurs in the top context menue and what occurs in the TortoiseSVN sub-menu of the context menu.

As of January 15, 2018, Site fix-up work has begun! Now do your part and report any bugs or deficiencies here

No guarantees, but if we don't report problems they won't get much of  a chance to be fixed! Details/discussions at link given just above.

 

"Some questions have no answers."[C Baird] "There comes a point where the spoon-feeding has to stop and the independent thinking has to start." [C Lawson] "There are always ways to disagree, without being disagreeable."[E Weddington] "Words represent concepts. Use the wrong words, communicate the wrong concept." [J Morin] "Persistence only goes so far if you set yourself up for failure." [Kartman]

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PeteAVR wrote:
But I can live with Ctrl-Click.

Alt+G is even faster :)

Regards

Senthil

 

blog | website

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Ok, sincwe this is the ranting thread:

-How do I get char arrays to show the contents in chars?

-Why don't I get all the compilation errors on one go? I'm very sure I used to compile less often but get longer error lists on AVR32 Studio.

-It does not continue on a breakpoint, the breakpoint often needs to be disabled. I want reusable breakpoints.

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jkuusama wrote:
Ok, sincwe this is the ranting thread:

-How do I get char arrays to show the contents in chars?

If your code is

int main(void)
{
	char arr[] = "AVR Studio 5";
    while(1)
    {
        int x = 2;
	char *p = arr;
	return x;
    }
}

The following expression in the Watch window
(char *)arr, s
will evaluate to "AVR Studio 5"

Regards

Senthil

 

blog | website

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Thank you! Now, it looks that there are more gems in that mine. Where is that information, I'd like to learn more.

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Continuing from a breakpoint: I think this has to do with interrupts, and this may be what happens: It is stopped on a breakpoint. At continue, there is an interrupt pending, so the processor runs the interrupt service routine, returns to the original statement and the breakpoint is still active, so it gets stuck.

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