RSTDSBL

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#1
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Am I right in my understanding that the only way to disable the RST function on something like a TINY13/15 is with the RSTDSBL fuse, which prevents future serial programming and there is no way to do this at run time in software, making the reset pin available after a discrete pause?

Cheers,

Joey

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You use your ISP programmer (for the last time) to set RSTDISBL then the chip can never be ISP programmed again. Instead you use your STK500, Dragon or STK600 to high voltage program it. So leave the change of that fuse to the very least moment unless you have one of those 3 devices. During development do the work of that pin on a different pin or do the development on a larger AVr with more pins and later port it to the small device.

One thing you might want to consider (though it'll eat some flash) is to put a bootloader into the chip so it can be programmed (probably via serial) after RSTDISBL has been activated.

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You can read fuses from a running program (on later AVRs)
You can never write fuses from a running program.

If you want to use RSTDSBL, you must do this via ICSP or HVSP. You can then use the /RESET pin for alternate functions. Further ICSP is no longer possible.

Most users are determined to shoot themselves in their own feet.

David.

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Quote:
TINY13/15 is with the RSTDSBL fuse,

david.prentice wrote:
Most users are determined to shoot themselves in their own feet.

You are referring to tn13 or the RSTDSBL?

No RSTDISBL, no fun!

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Both. They all want to use RSTDSBL.

They select a Tiny13A (£1.80 from Farnell) instead of a Tiny25 (£1.87). These chips have very few pins.

David.

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Quote:
Most users are determined to shoot themselves in their own feet.

David,
Since you are from England shouldn't the above be:

Most users are determined to shoot themselves in their own metres. ;)

Just having a little phun

Jim

I would rather attempt something great and fail, than attempt nothing and succeed - Fortune Cookie

 

"The critical shortage here is not stuff, but time." - Johan Ekdahl

 

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Please Read: Code-of-Conduct

Atmel Studio6.2/AS7, DipTrace, Quartus, MPLAB, RSLogix user

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ATMega16 is about 2£ in here.
Unfortunately "No RSTDSBL, no fun".

No RSTDISBL, no fun!

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Quote:

Most users are determined to shoot themselves in their own metres.

Except that gentlemen of a certain age in the UK were brought up on a diet of inches/feet/yards as well as pounds/shillings/pence ;-)

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And we still by pints of milk and beer, not half litres! (Or, at least I do :) )

--greg
Still learning, don't shout at me, educate me.
Starting the fire is easy; the hardest part is learning how to keep the flame!

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Oh boy....I stepped in it again :)

Jim

Edit:
Now we need Mr. Baird, and the mighty samperi to roast me and I will be well done

I would rather attempt something great and fail, than attempt nothing and succeed - Fortune Cookie

 

"The critical shortage here is not stuff, but time." - Johan Ekdahl

 

"Step N is required before you can do step N+1!" - ka7ehk

 

"If you want a career with a known path - become an undertaker. Dead people don't sue!" - Kartman

"Why is there a "Highway to Hell" and only a "Stairway to Heaven"? A prediction of the expected traffic load?"  - Lee "theusch"

 

Speak sweetly. It makes your words easier to digest when at a later date you have to eat them ;-)  - Source Unknown

Please Read: Code-of-Conduct

Atmel Studio6.2/AS7, DipTrace, Quartus, MPLAB, RSLogix user

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did the UK go metric ???????
when......???????
I also still think of it as the country of miles, gallons (beer???), pints.
I have noticed that the weather services use Celsius degrees, don't know if in the past that was also Fahrenheit.

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Most businesses have dealt in metric for thirty years. I bought food by the tonne, sold milk by the litre, measured lengths by the metre.

This does not apply to the retail sector. Shops sell milk by the pint more often than by the litre. Pubs sell draught beer by the pint. Shops sell bottled beer by the litre.

There is a total mis-mash in the retail sector. Fruit and vegetables are supposed to be sold in metric quantities. Pre-packaged goods can by sold by 454g or other abortion.

Metric measures have been taught in schools for the last forty years. However since you have such a strange arrangement of retail quantities, children are neither familiar with metric or imperial.

I started thinking in metric when I was paid in metric. I struggle with LTY in gallons, even worse with lbs. Everyone understood pounds and cents within weeks of metric currency. There has never been a problem with pound weight and pound currency --- humans understand context!

The general public would be far better off with a single system. Quite honestly even imperial measures would be preferable to the current arrangement. Obviously Napoleon was a lot more intelligent than rods, poles and perches but hey-ho, the UK will probably continue as it is.

Greg likes his shillings and pence, pounds and ounces, feet and inches.

David.

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Quote:
Greg likes his shillings and pence, pounds and ounces, feet and inches.

:)

I (also) prefer to have 240 pennies in a pound, but that, sadly, has long gone :(

Can you imagine the thrill of getting 120 penny chews for 10 bob? My jaw is aching just thinkng back :) :) :)
If you were hard up, you could get 12 halfpenny chews for a tanner!

Ah, those were the days :)

--greg
Still learning, don't shout at me, educate me.
Starting the fire is easy; the hardest part is learning how to keep the flame!

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I came into a small pile of tiny13s for pence. I have the kind of mind that takes great pleasure in getting the max out of such a small device. It would pain me not to make good use of them.

For my purpose (a matchbox sized DDS audio test signal generator) I can get it working using PB5 as the LSB, once working program RSTDSBL and it will become 5-bit output. I could use HVP on my STK500, but I've not yet used this arcane approach and I prefer the simplicity of the AVRISPII.

As for metric and imperial I'm one of the bilingual generation, though I prefer inches (which means two sytems, fractional and 'thous').

Pernally they missed a big trick on metrication. If they had made 1"=25.6mm imagine how much more user friendly the world would have become. 1024 'metric thous' to the inch. Precise conversion from fractional
to metric and great simplification of measuring devices from electronic calipers and micrometers to mechanical handwheel dials.

Cheers,

Joey

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You have no problem. The AVRISP-2 can program your firmware. You just have make sure that you had fully debugged the firmware first.

You could have done all your development on a Tiny84 also with the mk2.

Regarding a metric inch, that is an interesting thought.

In practice, for agricultural purposes, a 50kg hundredweight was good enough. Likewise a ton and a tonne. Or 2.5 acres to a hectare.

Americans have their own bastardised imperial measurements. A 16oz pint! An 8lb gallon! A 2000lb 'short ton'!

At least Europeans (and the civilised world) know that a metre or kilogram are known quantities.

David.

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Quote:
I have the kind of mind that takes great pleasure in getting the max out of such a small device.

What about tn4? That would be fun with sot23!

IMHO these chips were made for hurting people. If you want to do something really pleasant, give them away to someone you dislike. Instant relief. What is more, the idea someone is f.. with those nasty chips just drives to ecstasy.

Can't you use a regular AVR and pretend you locked it?

Yes, I know:

Brutte wrote:
"No RSTDSBL, no fun".

No RSTDISBL, no fun!

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Quote:

A 16oz pint!

Expand on that one--I thought "A pint's a pound the world around...". Sigh--now you've gotten me off digging again. All I know of Britain/England/thereabouts is gleaned from watching BBC shows. The characters have been known to "nip down to the pub for a pint".

Aha! http://www.beagle-ears.com/lars/...

Quote:
Thus, we have the common American claim that "a pint is a pound the world around" pitted against the English statement that "a pint of water weighs a pound and a quarter".

So if you do any nipping then you get more than http://www.packworld.com/package...

Of course, you would not consider that "beer" in any case (or other container)[pun intended].

Lee

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

I've never met a pig I didn't like, as long as you have some salt and pepper.

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Quote:

sold milk by the litre,

Now, in a past life I sold my milk by the hundredweight--cwt--100 pounds.

When I was teaching (another past life that indeed overlapped the dairy farming somewhat) data processing basics, I'd ask: "If there are 1000 grams in a kilogram and 1000 meters in a kilometer, how many bytes are in a kilobyte?" The class answers in chorus '1000' and then on to 1024 and then depending on who is selling those bytes...

Similarly here: My cwt/hundredweight is 100 pounds. Now, how many pounds are in a hundredweight in England?
http://www.xcheque.com/xcheque-b...

Quote:
USA - $ per hundred weight. ($/cwt). Note that a US short hundred weight (100lb) shouldn?t be confused with a British Long hundred weight (112lb).

Sigh. No wonder old guys get confused. Miss any Mars landings? http://articles.cnn.com/1999-09-...

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

I've never met a pig I didn't like, as long as you have some salt and pepper.

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Sad though it may seem I collect pint glasses (from real ale beer festivals). I guess I'd feel a bit short changed if I brought them along to an American beer festival?

(do American's enjoy such pleasures anyway?)

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I did not realise that the U.S. did not have a proper hundredweight.
Do you have a stone? (1 stone = 14lbs, 1 cwt = 8 stones)

Quote:
Now, in a past life I sold my milk by the hundredweight--cwt--100 pounds.

And you still sell wheat by the bushel. My only association with a bushel was the size of an apple box. Nowadays apples go in big boxes.

I would guess that our colleagues from the civilised world must gasp in wonderment.

David.

Edit. I have corrected my description of 'stone'

For our American readers:
Brits are still happier with a human weight in stones rather than kg. e.g. 16st. 5lb.
Brits still think of human height in feet and inches.
Distance between cities in miles rather than km.

OTOH, most purchases e.g. petrol, paint, timber, steel, concrete are always metric.

Last Edited: Thu. Aug 18, 2011 - 09:52 AM
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In here we use Edison screw (E11 and E14) for bulbs, water pipes are still imperial. Same as tires, HDD or LCD screen sizes.

Quote:
Sigh. No wonder old guys get confused.

Mind a significant part of electronics and ee businesses still use imperial units. A design is definitely more challenging when both systems are involved.

I have a beer can which was made for our market on an imperial system production line. Its internal volume is a pint, but as it is forbidden to sell such odd quantity in here, the can has a rattling widget inside.. So the internal volume of beer is 0,5L.

No RSTDISBL, no fun!

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Have you not noticed the rather 'odd' dimensions of electronic components. i.e. they are drawn with metric measurements for what was obviously imperial.

The widget inside the beer can is to produce the head. A British 20oz pint is 567mL. An American 16oz pint is 453mL.

Nowadays English beer bottles that are sold in supermarkets are 500mL. I am not sure if pubs can sell bottled beer by the 283mL.

Although I prefer English beer, Polish beer is not bad (as lager goes).

David.

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Quote:

Brits still think of human height in feet and inches.

How tall are your horses?

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

I've never met a pig I didn't like, as long as you have some salt and pepper.

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15 Hands.

It would be interesting to hear how (civilised) Europeans measure horses.

I am not a horse person. You measure cows in cm and kg.

David.

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Quote:
The widget inside the beer can is to produce the head.

The widget is the size and weigh of a small ping-pong ball and sits inside, you cannot get it out nor feel its presence till you empty some beer. Made of some plastic. And it is also impossible to shake can and make the head, not spilling 3/4 of beer all around.
Unless you are completely drunk - how do you imagine making head with such thing?

Quote:
Nowadays English beer bottles that are sold in supermarkets are 500mL.

My pint can is perhaps 10 years old. And what about beer cans? Do/did n't you have a pint ones?

Quote:
Although I prefer English beer, Polish beer is not bad (as lager goes).

The one from pint can was horrible.

And I do not know any Polish beer brands. There are only Heinekens and SABMillers with various color logo brands in here. Well perhaps there are some small local breweries somewhere.

No RSTDISBL, no fun!

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Quote:

And I do not know any Polish beer brands.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bee...

On the same page:

Quote:
Beer in Poland has always been important for the Poles. There are 70 breweries in Poland (including 27 microbreweries).

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I went to Poland three years ago. There were many brands of Polish beer. Almost as many as there are types of vodka.

I have never come across a ping pong ball in a beer can. Canned Guinness has a special widget that releases nitrogen into the beer when you operate the ring-pull. This makes it taste 'similar' to draught Guinness. It works fairly well.

Bottled Guinness has regular carbon dioxide dissolved, like most beers. There are no widgets in bottles.

There are certain brands of canned English beer that have a nitrogen widget. e.g. Boddingtons (I think).
The beer is supposed to taste of soap suds. The widget creates the required taste of soap. It is a complete mystery how any human could enjoy this. OTOH, someone invented Heineken .... less soap, but still tasteless.

Years ago you could buy beer in 7-pint cans. It was vile. I think that all current cans are metric.

David.

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Quote:

Years ago you could buy beer in 7-pint cans.

I remember a party (almost 40 years ago) where one or more of those were thrown - probably why you don't see them these days ;-)

http://www.beercannews.com/BEER_...

Quote:
The next big innovation was the introduction of the “party” can. In December 1960, Ansells Brewery launched the first party can, Ansells Caskette Draught Beer, a seven pint can made by Metal Box at Perry Wood, Worcester. This was soon followed by a four pint can and, in 1972, a five pint can.

UNDER-SIZED In actual fact, even though many of these cans had brand names like Big Four Draught Bitter, Fullers Bitter 5 and Watneys Party Seven, they were all 2 or 4oz less than their names implied.

In 1978, government legislation was passed that made it ilegal to sell a can purporting to hold five pints when, in fact, it only held 4 pints, l8oz.

For some reason only the five pint can was singled out and the four and seven pint cans continued to be sold under measure! The party can survived for some 25 years, but has now been replaced by 2 and 3 litre PET bottles. Although some stocks still remain with one or two small breweries, production of these cans will soon cease.


(I think it's rather wonderful there is a www.beercannews.com in the first place!)

Last Edited: Thu. Aug 18, 2011 - 02:48 PM
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Quote:
This makes it taste 'similar' to draught Guinness. It works fairly well.
I beg to differ. Draught Guiness in a can tastes like shit because of the widget. If you're a Guiness drinker, only buy Guinness Original in a can!

--greg
Still learning, don't shout at me, educate me.
Starting the fire is easy; the hardest part is learning how to keep the flame!

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Quote:

I beg to differ. Draught Guiness in a can tastes like shit because of the widget. If you're a Guiness drinker, only buy Guinness Original in a can!

Ah but if you were a truly dedicated stout drinker you'd be drinking Murphy's not Guinness in the first place ;-)

(the Guinness brewery in Dublin is well worth the tour by the way!)

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I have been on Bitter for the last few years.
I went through a phase of drinking bottled Guinness.
Another phase of drinking draught Guinness.

Bottled Guinness must be > 6 months and warm.
Draught Guinness must be cold.

Canned 'Guinness Original' is bottled Guinness in a can. I do not like it.
Canned 'Guinness Draught' is the one with the widget. I agree that it is a poor imitation. IMHO, the result is better than the canned 'Original'

Just to confuse matters for our international readers, there is 'Guinness Export' in bottles. This is completely revolting.

Other opinions may exist, I do not share them.

David.

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Quote:
(the Guinness brewery in Dublin is well worth the tour by the way!)
It certainly is. Dublin Guiness is the TOPS!

--greg
Still learning, don't shout at me, educate me.
Starting the fire is easy; the hardest part is learning how to keep the flame!

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Quote:

Dublin Guiness is the TOPS!

Not just in Dublin but the Guinness all over Ireland is better than elsewhere as it's brewed with water from the Liffey while in other countries Guinness is brewed under licence - but even in Ireland Guinness is not as good as Murphys and Beamish is on a par with Guinness.

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Cliff,

Our opinions differ. I have never been fond of Newcastle Brown. Many people like it.

Murphy's is a nice drink. Beamish has few virtues. Smithwick's is on a par with Boddingtons.

David.

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Quote:

I have never been fond of Newcastle Brown.

I was born in Newcastle - what can I tell you? ;-)

I sank a fair quantity of the stuff while at Newcastle Uni though my preferred tipple then was actually cider and lager (snakebites). In following years I had an epiphany when my job involved drinking two or three pints of Greene King's Abbot every lunch time from which time I switched to mainly real ale such as Wadworths 6X, Old Speckled Hen, Fullers London Pride and so on.

I've yet to try:

Dr McGloo's Amber Enema
Strollop's Lobster Scrumpy
or
Blackadder's Bowel Basher

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clawson wrote:
On the same page:

On the same page:
Kompania Piwowarska is SABMiller - 45% of the market
Grupa Żywiec is Heineken's - 35% of the market
Carlsberg - 14% of the market
Łomża - Royal Unibrew

And there is ~1% left. And about that those I was talking about. Do you know Polish brands? I don't.

Quote:
Beer in Poland has always been important for the Poles.

That is for sure. Same as vodka. But we are discussing about brands and that was never important.

Quote:
There were many brands of Polish beer.

Here we go with the discussion about National Makes. Is it where the manufacturing plant is standing (then it is Polish, but then Heineken Beer is also Polish as it is brewed in here) or where the machines come from (then it is Taiwanese, for sure controlling computers). Or perhaps it is about people who make the decisions (then it is British/Dutch/Danish) or where the barley came from (then it is .. American?) and from all above arguments the strongest one is these are Polish because are drunk by Poles..

No RSTDISBL, no fun!

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I suppose that I have the wrong attitude.

If I like the taste of the beer, I really do not care who owns the company.

It happens that my two favourite brewers (Adnams and ShepherdNeame) are both British and independent.

The tenants of their pubs have terrible stories about business practices. That is not my problem. I like their beer.

If the breweries were owned by Libyan philanthropists, I would still like the beer.

If I heard that they used crap ingredients, I might feel uncomfortable. But I expect that the final product is what would determine my choice.

I can understand your nationalism. A multi-national brewer is less likely to have Polish taste as a priority. In England we have not lost everything to international recipes. We have lost many regional breweries, but gained new micro breweries, some of which are very good.

OTOH, I am not a lager drinker. People do not enjoy drinking lager. It is purely a means of getting drunk.

David.

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So is the point of all this that if you drink too much beer, your reset gets disabled? ;)

Regards,
Steve A.

The Board helps those that help themselves.

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Quote:

Ah but if you were a truly dedicated stout drinker you'd be drinking Murphy's not Guinness in the first place

A man of exquisite taste!

The cans with the nitro widget is what we get in Sweden, be it Guinness, Murphys or Caffreys. One day, I hope to travel to Ireland and see if the difference is as big as you claim.

Keep in mind that Sweden for decades had no beer culture at all - all lagers with so much CO2 that the stuff was quite un-drinkable.

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Quote:
I hope to travel to Ireland and see if the difference is as big as you claim.
You won't regret it! Thats a fact.

--greg
Still learning, don't shout at me, educate me.
Starting the fire is easy; the hardest part is learning how to keep the flame!

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david.prentice wrote:
I can understand your nationalism.

I just said Heineken is not a Polish beer.
IMHO a nationalism would be to not to drink a beer you like, just because it is not Polish.

Now I can write down I am not going to drink Heineken.
Not because I am a nationalist (I am not), but simply because I do not drink beer at all :)

david.prentice wrote:
It happens that my two favourite brewers (..)are both British

What a coincidence..

We must make a contest of the metrics of the topics.
The distance (in feet or metres) from head to tail in terms of how far from primary OP's question the thread can go.

EDIT: meters not metres.

No RSTDISBL, no fun!

Last Edited: Sat. Feb 23, 2013 - 04:58 PM
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Quote:
how far from primary OP's question the thread can go.
All the way ;)

To be fair, the question was answered fully in the first four replies. I'm sure Joey finds the beer discussion far more interesting anyhow :)

--greg
Still learning, don't shout at me, educate me.
Starting the fire is easy; the hardest part is learning how to keep the flame!

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Quote:

One day, I hope to travel to Ireland and see if the difference is as big as you claim.

Don't go to Dublin- go to Connemara or Kerry - the truly beautiful parts of the country (but then again you live in Sweden ;-))

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Quote:
Don't go to Dublin
When/if you do, don't your wife leave her purse on a seat in a bar, then walk away, think... 'I left my purse behind', return to the seat and cry... 'SOME B*ST*RDS STOLEN MY PURSE!!!'

:)

Women!

--greg
Still learning, don't shout at me, educate me.
Starting the fire is easy; the hardest part is learning how to keep the flame!

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clawson wrote:
You use your ISP programmer (for the last time) to set RSTDISBL then the chip can never be ISP programmed again. Instead you use your STK500, Dragon or STK600 to high voltage program it....

Hmmm...

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression after much reading that once the RSTDISBL fuse was set, you can use high voltage programming to reset it, making the AVR now ISP programmable again.

Am I incorrect in this assumption???

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No. That is correct. It can be recovered using high voltage programming. Which is exactly what it says in the quote you refered to :) (Perhaps the 'can never' may be a little misleading)

--greg
Still learning, don't shout at me, educate me.
Starting the fire is easy; the hardest part is learning how to keep the flame!

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Quote:

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression after much reading that once the RSTDISBL fuse was set, you can use high voltage programming to reset it, making the AVR now ISP programmable again.

Did you read what I wrote? You cut the second sentence at the "..." in your quote - it was as important as the first sentence. As I say with RSTDISBL active you can never do ISP. ISP is the low voltage serial programming mechanism. However as I then went on to say you use you HV programmer to do either HVPP or HVSP (depends how many pins the AVR has). HVPP/HVSP != ISP.

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gregsmithcts wrote:
No. That is correct. It can be recovered using high voltage programming. Which is exactly what it says in the quote you refered to :)

Not really... he said "the chip can never be ISP programmed again". If you reset the fuse with high-voltage programming, then it obviously CAN be programmed again using ISP. Not trying to be picky, but the way he worded it made it sound like once you blew the fuse, it was a permanent proposition.

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Quote:

Not trying to be picky,

:?

But if you want to be pedantic you are right - you can use HV to clear RSTDISBL then do ISP again.

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clawson wrote:
Quote:

Not trying to be picky,

:?

But if you want to be pedantic you are right - you can use HV to clear RSTDISBL then do ISP again.

Thanks. Just striving for clarity and accurate knowledge here.
I have a Dragon on the way, should be here tomorrow... probably half the reason I ordered it was to "fix" a few Tiny85's I blew the RSTDISBL fuse on before I knew better! ;)

When I read your OP, I was afraid I had made a mistake and that those chips would be HV-programmable-only for eternity!

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Did you miss the bit where I said...

Quote:
(Perhaps the 'can never' may be a little misleading)

?
One would normally set that fuse as the very last stage prior to production, therefore, using ISP further is moot, as the device will have shipped :) If it's programmed in error, then without HV/P you are pretty much stuck with whatever the last firmware was you loaded.
I would imagine that HV/P is very dangerous to attempt 'in circuit' anyhow!

Quote:
probably half the reason I ordered it was to "fix" a few Tiny85's I blew
I hope you have jumpers and a ZIF socket also :)

--greg
Still learning, don't shout at me, educate me.
Starting the fire is easy; the hardest part is learning how to keep the flame!

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