Pronunciation of char?

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Koshchi wrote:
Quote:
I once worked with a guy who pronounced char as in charcoal

Pretty much every programmer that I know pronounces it that way.

This is from another thread and now I'm wondering what's going on. I've always heard the C data type char pronounced as in character, not as in charcoal. Maybe something profound has happened since last I worked in a group of programmers.

Smiley

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char=KAR (or car)...unless you are barbequeing as in char grill steak. (or charcoal)...

But then again I'm not a real programmer...just an "unreal" one. :)

John Samperi

Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.

https://www.ampertronics.com.au

* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly

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everyone i know (here in New Zealand) uses >char

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"char" is better than "care", especially because char* becomes "char star".

Regards,
Steve A.

The Board helps those that help themselves.

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It's a character so... character.

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Sorry. care for character, not char for burnt. The Aussies and that lone Canadian are wrong.

Chuck Baird

"I wish I were dumber so I could be more certain about my opinions. It looks fun." -- Scott Adams

http://www.cbaird.org

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I now wonder
it is karakter in the pronounciation ans sjarcoal....

fro the same ch that start a word. Where do there differenses come from then????
you could say it should be sjaracter and sjarcoal or karacter and karcoal......

ps. I always pronouced it as the burned stuff :) and heve not yet mett anyone who pronounced it in the karacter way... ( but that might be my mistaje :)
......

rgds

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Quote:
char* becomes "char star".
But a charred star is a supernova... :?

John Samperi

Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.

https://www.ampertronics.com.au

* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly

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Why should a programmer even pronounce 'char' when he can just say 'character'? It's not that long a word.

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Quote:

Why should a programmer even pronounce 'char' when he can just say 'character'? It's not that long a word.

Extending that argument yields the question: Why is the word abbreviated in "C"? It's not that long a word.

---

Me, I'm a "karr" man, but many colleagues are "shaar" men/women.

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Quote:
care for character, not char for burnt.
Quote:
char=KAR (or car)...
Quote:
The Aussies ....are wrong
HUH? Or do you mean the NZ guy?

They don't spuk Englash thir enyway.. (with my bist NZ ekcent.. :lol: )

John Samperi

Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.

https://www.ampertronics.com.au

* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly

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char as in smoldering wood for me.

In fact in my professional career, where I must have interacted with several hundred software engineers (maybe more - I've probably interviewed thta many alone) I only have memory of one person I used to work with (in fact the person who helped me switch from Asm to C) who insisted on pronouncing it as in "character" to stress that very fact that it was a character. I guess the other 499(?) engineers knew this anyway and didn't need to pronounce it that way so just pronounced it in the way that (certainly in England) the letters C-H-A-R would be be phoenetically pronounced as it's what happens to wood when you warm it up (and hence charcoal)

Cliff

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I've always heard it pronounced as char(coal), never the other way.

Leon

Leon Heller G1HSM

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In slavic languages we have a sound for "ch" which is transcribed usually as "kh". If one knows how to properly pronounce greek letters rather than in that rather confusing English-ish way, it's the equivalent of χ. So we pronounce char as khar or χαρ.

Funnily enough, "ch" is seen as a single letter in Slovak/Czech, in alphabet it officially follows "h", making sorting quite a challenge... :-(

JW

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A portable cooler here in NZ is called a 'chilly bin'.
Across the ditch in Aus they call it an 'esky'.
What the hell are we gonna do about that one? Never mind 'char'.

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Char, the medium [tsjar, de midi jum]
What a character [wot uh kerrektur]
Her soul
as black
as charcoal

Nard

What about: Leicester pronounced as Lester ??
Oh, .... you Brittish

@Smiley: working on a talking book ?

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Nard, you know that British English has so many accents that you can tell where someone lives - almost down to street level - just by his or her accent? :)

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BritishAccents
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FakeBrit

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Quote:

What about: Leicester pronounced as Lester ??
Oh, .... you Brittish

Excuse me but it is OUR language! :lol:

It's others who've murdered it with their color, favorite, check (rather than cheque), etc. etc.

One of my all time favourites is StJohn Cholmondeley Featherstonehaugh - pronounced "Sin-Jin Chumley Fanshaw" :lol:

(actually the Irish have some great spellings/pronounciations too- my wife's Gaelic name is Siobhan - "Shivawn")

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Maybe we should start using programming languages based on more unambiguously pronounced human languages.

I just looked it up: "character" in Welsh is "cymeriad".

JW

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APL?

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Personally, I've always pronounced it 'KAR' (with a hard Atlantic Canadian 'R' - think "Talk like a pi-ARRR-ate day").

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English is a great language (unless you're learning it!).

"Have you read in the reading room in Reading library? I read there regularly."

How should you pronounce Sean Bean?
Seen Been? Shawn Bawn? Nope. Shawn Been.

Re: welsh language...
I once holidayed in a place called Eglwyswrw. Fortunately I didn't have to ask for directions.

Oh, and I pronounce it char as in charred.

OT (?!) What about "!".
I still call this 'pling', but that's probably because of my Acorn roots. Bang just seems wrong to me.

Nigel Batten
www.batsocks.co.uk

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Exclamation mark :P

I remember the usage by Acorn as peek/poke alternative

!&FFA0=&12345678

IIRC it could also be used as base+index somehow.

X=A!4

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I've always heard "!" called bang!

Leon

Leon Heller G1HSM

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While I generally just call it "exclamation" these days I guess "! = pling" must be restricted to those of us who owned an Acorn Atom then? See 7.3 here:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~fjkraan/co...

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Chr.

Go to Neospeech http://www.neospeech.com , select Paul and type Char.

"This is Paul from Neospeech, thank you for testing my voice: Char".

8)

RES

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Wonder how Professor Stephen Hawking would pronounce "char" ?

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Quote:
What about "!".

I had a math professor once who, with '!' as used for 'factorial', would call n! "excited n". He actually preferred an old notation for factorial which is an 'L' shape with the lower line extended below the number or symbol that is being "factorialized".

Regards,
Steve A.

The Board helps those that help themselves.

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Quote:

What about "!".

For stuff like

if (!something) ...

i pronounce it "not". Are you really reading this out as "if bang something"? If so, that is just weird. Or perhaps ot is just me having grown up with programming languages where there actually is a reserved word not, eg Pascal.

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"Some questions have no answers."[C Baird] "There comes a point where the spoon-feeding has to stop and the independent thinking has to start." [C Lawson] "There are always ways to disagree, without being disagreeable."[E Weddington] "Words represent concepts. Use the wrong words, communicate the wrong concept." [J Morin] "Persistence only goes so far if you set yourself up for failure." [Kartman]

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Is

+a

a signed char ? :lol:

/Bingo

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Plons wrote:
@Smiley: working on a talking book ?
No, I saw a recent thread where the OP didn't seem to realize that a char data type was intended for character manipulation. Then I remembered a guy who seemed to have a similar confusion and pronouced it as in charcoal. It really is a nit point, but when I see tortuous discussions about signed and unsigned char, especially when the questioner seems to be using it for numeric data, I often wonder why a novice would be asking about what is really IMHO a quite advanced subject that IMHO would only be used in some advanced string parsing algorithm.

Bottom line, I think some novices think the char data type is some sort of alternative to an 8-bit integer and while it can be used that way, it is IMHO confusing the intended use - IMHO the pronunciation as in charcoal divorces it from character so if it was pronounced 'care' as in character, then the novice might get a clue to use them for characters and not get crazy using them as 8-bit integers.

Anyway, looks like I'm in the minority as usual.

Smiley

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I could be wrong, and I can't be bothered to check with K&R, but I believe that C originally had a char and an unsigned char, and if you wanted to use only 8 bits these were your only options on most compilers. Ever since I discovered the uint8_t and uint16_t etc., I've tended to stick to those, as they are unambiguous.
But as to the original question, I pronounce char as in charcoal, I find it very difficult to say it as in character.

Four legs good, two legs bad, three legs stable.

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Everyone I know in Russia (including myself) tend to go with charcoal. The first time I ever heard the other way to pronounce it was few weeks ago when I watched YouTube lecture from UCLA.

NOTE: I no longer actively read this forum. Please ask your question on www.eevblog.com/forum if you want my answer.

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Char or Kar.... Rather like big-endian or little-endian

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Quote:
I could be wrong, and I can't be bothered to check with K&R, but I believe that C originally had a char and an unsigned char

Certainly not in the second edition. It clearly states that char can be signed or unsigned, depending on implementation. It is also clear that it might not be 8 bits (the original form of ASCII was 7 bit).

Regards,
Steve A.

The Board helps those that help themselves.

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A plain char, is stated to hold only a positive value, though the implementation may be as a signed or unsigned value. The implication of this is that a plain char, while requiring 8 bits of storage, has a (guaranteed) valid range of 0-127, anything beyond that is implementation defined. For signed, or unsigned, behavior you needed to declare the variable as being signed or unsigned.

Writing code is like having sex.... make one little mistake, and you're supporting it for life.

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Quote:
The implication of this is that a plain char, while requiring 8 bits of storage, has a (guaranteed) valid range of 0-127

But this assumes ASCII. I don't believe there is anything in the C standard that enforces ASCII.

I took a poll here at the office, and I got 10 out of 10 (11 if you include me) for char(coal).

Regards,
Steve A.

The Board helps those that help themselves.

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It doesn't assume ASCII, but happens to correspond with it. It does, however, imply 7-bit character encoding... whatever character table that may imply is left to the implementation/environment.

ANSI-C99 wrote:

6.2.5 Types
2) An object declared as type char is large enough to store any member of the basic execution character set. If a member of the basic execution character set is stored in a char object, its value is guaranteed to be nonnegative. If any other character is stored in a char object, the resulting value is implementation-defined but shall be within the range of values that can be represented by that type.

...

5) An object declared as type signed char occupies the same amount of storage as a "plain" char object. ...

14) The type char, the signed and unsigned integer types, and the floating types are collectively called the basic types. Even if the implementation defines two or more basic types to have the same representation, they are nevertheless different types.

15) The three types char, signed char, and unsigned char are collectively called the character types. The implementation shall define char to have the same range, representation, and behavior as either signed char or unsigned char.

ANSI-C99 wrote:

6.5.3.4 The sizeof operator
2) The sizeof operator yields the size (in bytes) of its operand, which may be an expression or the parenthesized name of a type. The size is determined from the type of the operand. The result is an integer. If the type of the operand is a variable length array type, the operand is evaluated; otherwise, the operand is not evaluated and the result is an integer constant.

3) When applied to an operand that has a type of char, unsigned char, or signed char, (or a qualified version thereof) the result is 1. When applied to an operand that has an array type, the result is the number of bytes in the array. When applied to an operand that has structure or union type, the result is the total number of bytes in such an object, including any internal and trailing padding.

Writing code is like having sex.... make one little mistake, and you're supporting it for life.

Last Edited: Mon. Sep 14, 2009 - 10:26 PM
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...one more reason !2LrnC...

John Samperi

Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.

https://www.ampertronics.com.au

* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly

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Online dictionaries pronounce: char. Probably this char doesn't come from character.

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Quote:
Online dictionaries pronounce: char

Which is not much help since the definitions related to programming say the pronunciation is:
Quote:
/keir/ or /char/; rarely, /kar/

But since we are winning handily, I don't really keir :)

Regards,
Steve A.

The Board helps those that help themselves.

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Koshchi wrote:
Which is not much help since the definitions related to programming say the pronunciation is:
Quote:
/keir/ or /char/; rarely, /kar/
You are right it doesn't help.

Most Spanish speaking people pronounce it like in charcoal. But, if char in C language comes from character then it should be pronounced kær

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Quote:
It doesn't assume ASCII, but happens to correspond with it. It does, however, imply 7-bit character encoding... whatever character table that may imply is left to the implementation/environment.

I still disagree. It only says that all characters that are used for the basic execution set are considered positive, not that the upper bit must be 0 or unused. If it did, it would be the same as forcing the implementation of char to be signed.

If whatever character mapping you use some of those characters are in the upper 128, then it may restrict the implementation from treating char as unsigned, but it wouldn't disallow the 8 bit character set. This restriction would be a result of the implementation, not the standard. And by the way, EBCDIC is 8 bit and there are plenty of characters needed by C in the upper 128.

Regards,
Steve A.

The Board helps those that help themselves.

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Quote:
But since we are winning handily, I don't really keir

Perhaps so, but you know in your hearts you're wrong.

You may be toasting our butts, but we don't char.

Chuck Baird

"I wish I were dumber so I could be more certain about my opinions. It looks fun." -- Scott Adams

http://www.cbaird.org

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'tjar' or 'shaar' like charcoal.
Never heard (or used) anything else.

/Jesper
http://www.yampp.com
The quick black AVR jumped over the lazy PIC.
What boots up, must come down.

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I frankly always considered it somewhat unpronounceable :D

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I could mention that int is pronounced as in integer which everybody seems to get, but char as in character, why not? Oh, wait, please tell me that you guys pronounce int as in integer and that I'm not MIA on that one too.

Smiley

Last Edited: Tue. Sep 15, 2009 - 03:03 AM
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Koshchi wrote:
I still disagree. It only says that all characters that are used for the basic execution set are considered positive, not that the upper bit must be 0 or unused. If it did, it would be the same as forcing the implementation of char to be signed.

Note that I was talking about a "guaranteed" range (across platforms), which is 0-127. I by no means meant that char was limited to that range. Certainly a char can express above, or below, that depending on the implementation... but the largest common positive range is 0-127. This is why a "plain" char should only ever be used for actual character data, and not as a integer variable. For an integer variable one should use the fully qualified signed, or unsigned versions.

Let's follow the rules.

6.5.3.4: char, signed char, and unsigned char all have a size of 1 byte. - This restricts us to the 8 bit range of representable values [0 - 255] or [-128 - 127]

6.2.5: "plain" char has the same implementation as either signed char, or unsigned char. A signed char occupies the same space as a "plain char". A (valid) character is guaranteed to be positive. - Thus we're stuck with 0-127 as the guaranteed, valid, range for a "plain" char object. <-1, and >128 can only be represented depending on the implementation, thus those values cannot be guaranteed by a "plain" char.

--

Specific implementations may move beyond this, in fact it may be necessary for certain character set implementations (as you pointed out). If the character set needs to go beyond 127, then the char implementation must be unsigned, as it is impossible to express anything over 127 in a signed form of char, and a valid character in the character set is guaranteed to be positive.

Writing code is like having sex.... make one little mistake, and you're supporting it for life.

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i pronounce int as integer and char as charcoal.

Why? because if you asked a non-programming person to pronounce "char", they would say char(coal)

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Quote:
i pronounce int as integer
ger as in George or get?
Why not spin off into another planet. It's all Smiley's fault as usual. :wink:

John Samperi

Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.

https://www.ampertronics.com.au

* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly

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j - soft - joe just jostled jerry's jelly jujubes with his can of worms about pronunciation.

(NUN-ciation, or NOUN-ciation?)

Chuck Baird

"I wish I were dumber so I could be more certain about my opinions. It looks fun." -- Scott Adams

http://www.cbaird.org

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