PCB Milling

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#1
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I posted some comments in another thread about pick and place machines and it was pointed out to me that I hijacked the thread, looking back I can't deny this but I really didn't mean it

 

I posted my comments hoping Cathy perhaps sold a machine and I was wanting the sales pitch but that didn't happen

 

I posted these comments

 

As an engineer I really fancy one of those milling machines, in fact I have colleagues that work in the chemistry department encouraging me to investigate these as they hate the chemicals for making PCB's, it causes them hassle

 

I have the backing, I have the funding but unfortunately when I look into milling machines it seems like its a lot of hassle and the results aren't that good

I do lots of PCB prototyping, I would never dream of a pick and place machine because I have no issues soldering and manufacturing boards, no issue at all, its not worth it for me

 

I can make pretty good PCB's, excellent PCB's in fact its just my colleagues who work in chemistry have extra work dealing with the chemicals hence I am being pushed to get rid of the chemicals but because the results will not be as good, its a compromise I am not willing to take and my colleagues agree

I was really wanting a Freak to correct me or recommend me a machine, I dream of making PCB's with no developing and no acid but I believe the results are not as good as the adverts make out and its actually a lot of hassle

 

There are a lot of machines, heres one

 

http://cirqoid.com/

 

It looks good, it seems too cheap if anything

 

Heres one of my rejects!, I have very high standards and I am seeking perfection which is hard to achieve, I would buy one today if I was confident but looking around and reading real peoples reviews the reality is the results are not as good as acid etched which is a shame

 

 

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Bignoob wrote:

... the reality is the results are not as good as acid etched which is a shame

 

I don't know about machines at the lower end of the market but more established brands like this....

 

http://www.lpkf.com/

 

...produce very good results. I suspect that like all things CNC (and life in general), the more you better the better the product.

#1 This forum helps those that help themselves

#2 All grounds are not created equal

#3 How have you proved that your chip is running at xxMHz?

#4 "If you think you need floating point to solve the problem then you don't understand the problem. If you really do need floating point then you have a problem you do not understand." - Heater's ex-boss

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As Brian says, when it comes to precision machining - which is what this is - you very much do get what you pay for!

 

I think that a professional machine such as LPKF would certainly give as good - probably better - results than etching your own.

 

Probably a more important question is whether it's really worth etching your own at all - especially in a work context with all the costs of Health & Safety, COSH, proper disposal, etc, etc, ...

 

There are plenty of vendors nowadays that will do 1-off or small-batch PCBs at very reasonable prices with very reasonable turnaround times - all at infinitely better quality than you can ever hope to achieve by hand. Including proper silk-screens, resist, plated-through holes, etc, etc,...

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I have an (older) LPKF.  I don't think I'd get another one. :-(

Tool cost is ... frightful, and they don't last long.  You can get cheap drills and cutters, but the etching bits are unusual enough not to have many low-cost alternatives.

In theory, you can do 0.2mm gaps between traces.  0.3mm to 0.4mm is more realistic, which isn't quite fine enough for modern SMT parts.

You don't get Plated holes, which is a major pain.  No soldermask, which adds to the difficulties with finer SMT pitch components.

 

Reasonably nice for single-sided 0.1 inch TH or SOIC parts.  Great for drilling and cutting PCBs into weird shapes.   When I bought mine, I was interested in making small (~1 x 1.5 inch) single sided PCBs, and the commercial alternatives were about $100 for 60 sq inches of double-sided board.  With the advent of batching services like OSHPark, I could get 3x of my boards for under $10, and it wouldn't be painful if they were wrong.  I could get a LOT of boards like that before I equal the price I paid for my used machine...

 

(now, there are cheaper milling machines coming out, and people claiming to be able to do pcb milling with cheaper general purpose mills.  I'm not convinced, when I look at the LPKF construction vs what they're using, and considering the difficulties I have.  And you still have the tool, plating, and masking issues.  And even the price of a cheap machine will get you a lot of OSHPark or Seeed boards.)

 

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Thanks Brian

 

Awneil

 

There is nothing like making your own PCB's, I actually quite enjoy it and I can achieve a lot in a short period of time, changes are easier so for prototyping nothing is faster, sure if I was making a product to sell I would get the boards made properley (like we do at work) but for me I make lots of prototypes, one offs, bespoke boards. I already have access to companies to make professional boards and the funds to just pay but wheres the fun in that!

 

I will always make PCB's for the rest of my life, IMO its really disappointing how few engineers that can actually do it, I must have made over 200 PCB's over the last three years and I want to up my game getting someone else to do it for me isn't an option

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westfw

 

Those comments are basically exactly what I read, the running cost doesn't bother me that much, I would pay the money to get the results its the minimum pitch that is the drawback, all that money all the learning curve and the minimum pitch isn't very good at all, apparently its hit and miss too

 

Through hole plating isn't something I have experience in but I believe theres a rivet type insert that looks really good, I have the equipment but I haven't tried yet

 

I always used the Harwin track pins to go through a layer but they are discontinued now and I wish I had known because I would of stocked up but that boat has sailed

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Bignoob wrote:
 http://cirqoid.com/ 

 

It looks good

Here's their example from that site:

 

Milled PCB board Milled PCB board

 

 

Bignoob wrote:
Heres one of my rejects!

 

 

 

Well, the cheap miller is certainly doing better than that - if their pictures are anything to go by.

 

As westfw suggests, the big issue with the milling machines is whether they can maintain their precision over a useful lifespan - and that is where the cheap stuff is really going to fall down.  

Also service & support.

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Awneil

 

That is a reject but theres no way I ever produced anything close to the other pic!, theres so many variables and for me its getting the board developed that is the hard bit, a good developed board gives a good etched board every time

 

I think the picture is like food adverts, it looks great on the advert but the product is nothing like it, even McDonalds burgwers look good on the advert!

 

I would love to see a picture of a milled board that a Freak has done, if it looks like that picture I will order one! call me cynical but I just don't trust companies adverts

 

the Cirqoid looks amazing but I think its too cheap to do that, I really hope I am wrong

Last Edited: Fri. May 15, 2015 - 08:39 AM
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How many boards are you producing?

 

What is your current failure rate?

 

Have you actually "done the maths" to see how much a board really costs to your employer? Have you compared that to PCB services?

 

It sounds like you may be working in a University or suchlike - is that right?

 

Have you visited exhibitions such as http://www.industrynorth.co.uk/ to speak to vendors and see the equipment in real life?

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Awneil

 

I make one of's usually

 

My failure rate is quite low, maybe one in three I reject

 

It doesn't matter how much it costs to make, the learning and experience is priceless and the company I work for are very rich in fact if saving money was priority then there is a lot of areas to start making PCB's doesn't even make it on the list

 

Its an enormous engineering corporation not a University

 

I haven't spoken to any companies as such, this is a recent area of interest for me, I will get some reps in I think because once they see the company name they trip over themselves trying to get in the door

 

I use companies to make PCB's and we get some amazing prices, open book policy but thats comes after all the prototyping etc, theres no way in the world am I willing to stop making my own because I really enjoy it and I want to improve the quality myself

 

Thanks for all the input guys, its appreciated

 

 

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Bignoob wrote:
I can make pretty good PCB's, excellent PCB's in fact its just my colleagues who work in chemistry have extra work dealing with the chemicals hence I am being pushed to get rid of the chemicals but ...
Chemical disposal varies by where the operation is.

"Think & Tinker, Ltd." has some good reads on its website; one part of it sells PCB milling bits.

Bignoob wrote:
Its an enormous engineering corporation not a University
Likewise but also at a university.

Really interesting to tour a small PCB etch and process line.


PreciseBits.com

Mechanical Fabrication of Printed Circuit Boards (PCB)

http://www.precisebits.com/tutorials/pcb_mech_etch.htm

...

The problem, of course, is that most of the chemicals involved are pretty nasty and are difficult to dispose of (unless you live in California, where they are impossible to dispose of). This is where mechanically etching PCBs comes in.

...

PCB mill machine list at http://www.precisebits.com/applications/pcbtools.htm

leads to

Other Machine Co.

Othermill

https://othermachine.co/othermill/features/

"Dare to be naïve." - Buckminster Fuller

Last Edited: Sat. May 16, 2015 - 02:46 AM
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Is it still legal to make things in California?

 

The largest known prime number: 282589933-1

Without adult supervision.

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I believe theres a rivet type insert that looks really good,

makes the achievable pitch even worse.

 

Here's their example from that site

Yeah, works great as long as you only need to connect SOME of the leads of an IC from one side of the IC to the other side of the IC, and don't need any traces between pins.   All those cute demo boards look nice, until you notice how far they are from being a useful circuit...   (now.  One of the frustrating thing about PCB services is (and even moreso WAS) that you don't get any price break because your board is especially simple and "easy.")

 

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I think we need to investigate laser ablation or electric spark discharge.

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I used to be the North American service tech for LPKF Laser & Electronics for about five years in the 1990s.    I would mention that their competition wasn't the two or three other companies that made the same type of CNC PCB machine, but instead it was SPICE simulation programs and the Hong Kong PCB etchers to whom you could e-mail your Gerber files and get your boards UPS'ed to you in a week for about $5 a square inch.   That's more true today.

 

CNC-PCB machines are OK for prototyping boards that need precision, or antennas, and/or have designs for defense contractors that shouldn't leave the shop, especially for China.  However, they are slow and expensive, both to buy initially and to operate.  We told customers to expect 2000 inches for a $15 milling tool bit.  And only about 300 inches for an end-mill bit, where the depth of copper cut could be precisely controlled and the sides of the trace were right-angled, not beveled.

 

I don't understand why you have rejected the etched PCB shown in the photograph.  All the visible traces appear to be complete.  The IC pads are good enough to accept tinning and to mount SOICs. The lettering is damaged, true. But the lettering would be covered in the board's documentation.

 

Another issue that I had with the CNC engineers was that these boards are for prototypes, not small runs of finished products.  In my humble opinion, it didn't matter if you could get three traces between two 0.1" IC pins.  Because you wouldn't be doing this with a prototype that more often than not would be subjected to rework to get the design finalized.  Being German engineers, they were all more impressed that they could produce a $50,000 machine (for the high end model LPKF in the Y2K era) could cut repeatable 8 mil traces than they were with making a $2000 machine that could inexpensively cut out traces for a SOIC with 0.05 inch pin spacing and be sold to colleges.

 

Anyway, LPKF fired me when I told them that I suspected that our customers weren't actually using our machines after buying them because most of our customers were only buying 10% of the milling tools in the second and third years of owning their machines than they did in the first year after buying our milling machine.  It was the dot-com boom era.  High tech companies were flush with cash and buying anything.  Our customers were using our machines 5-10 times and then just storing them in a closet.

 

When the dot-com crash came in 2001, LPKF's stock value went from 85 Euros a share to about 1,50 Euro a share.  It's now about 12-15 Euro, primarily due to their being the leading maker of laser stencil template cutting machines that sell in the $250,000 capital goods range.  

 

I was the only person in the entire company worldwide that actually designed and built electronic devices as a hobby.

Last Edited: Sat. May 16, 2015 - 11:49 PM
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I recognise the hallmarks of another company in an unrelated field; denying the realities of the marketplace.

 

Ross McKenzie ValuSoft Melbourne Australia

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Torby wrote:

Is it still legal to make things in California?

I'm not sure. They still have PCB companies, but a while back I ordered some boards from a California company and they arrived drop shipped to me from China, so perhaps not. There is, surprisingly, no place to get a PCB made in Nevada (that I know of).

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Torby wrote:

Is it still legal to make things in California?

 

There is still a market for the rumours that are being produced, especially in and around Beverly Hills.

 

Ross McKenzie ValuSoft Melbourne Australia

Last Edited: Sun. May 17, 2015 - 10:07 AM
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Some good comments in here

 

After I 'hijacked' that other thread awneil said start my own discussion and it will be lively!, I think he has a crystal ball!

 

makes the achievable pitch even worse.

Yeah I can appreciate that, but I think its no worse than those Harwin track pins that are now obsolete, I think its an improvement on them like I said I have the tools and inserts some time soon I will give them a run out!

 

I think we need to investigate laser ablation or electric spark discharge.

I am quite knowledgable on chemistry (not qualified) and I see on the chemistry forums they talk about electroetching (not for PCB's but it is still relevant) I don't know much about it but I think it just uses salt water

 

Heres one thread about it

 

http://www.sciencemadness.org/ta...

 

I am allowed to play around with stuff and one day I might investigate this but I know this isn't the solution for me, I think I would struggle to match the standard etching

 

 

Simonetta, thats a good post thanks

 

I don't understand why you have rejected the etched PCB shown in the photograph

It was rejected just because the writing looks crap, this is the main thing that I struggle with getting perfect most times. I normally use them if its only the writing but I am seeking perfection (if it exists) where everything is perfect, I have made what I would call perfect before its just really hard to repeat

 

I was the only person in the entire company worldwide that actually designed and built electronic devices as a hobby.

It sounds unbelievable but it isn't, I am always saddened at how few people there are that actually do practical work (theres lots on this site but...)

 

I don't know many people who have actually made a PCB before, they all give it the well I can buy them from China.. bla bla etc etc but they are robbing themselves of skills IMO

 

As a working engineer who also gets to go to Uni once a week its quite depressing how few students can actually design and build a circuit not on a breadboard and these are apparently some of the best students in the world! people think I am some sort of Guru just because I can do this and also write basic C programs, I have been given a lot of credit for my work from the academics apparently I have a massive advantage over other students which I need because having to work at the same time as study is a big disadvantage but I have commitments

 

Maybe I am strange but I actually enjoy the whole concept to board in a few days thing, I find it really satisfying

 

There is, surprisingly, no place to get a PCB made in Nevada

That doesn't surprise me, I believe Texas/Nevada/Arizona has some of the most backwards chemical laws in the world, I read on forums of kids getting the DEA around because they bought a simple distillation rig or suchlike, there are laws on equipment out there that don't exist anywhere else in the world. Thing is the meth cooks will always manage because they aren't renowned  for buying the best of equipment, any book on synthing drugs will actually tell you how to make your own equipment right at the start so the only people that suffer are the law abiding citizens

Last Edited: Sun. May 17, 2015 - 10:38 AM
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Bignoob wrote:

I don't know many people who have actually made a PCB before, they all give it the well I can buy them from China.. bla bla etc etc but they are robbing themselves of skills IMO

 

Jamie, I agree with the robbing of skills comment. I almost invariably make the first prototype pcb myself unless it is more than 2 layers. It not only saves time, but the embarrassment of the first time "blunders" that some crazy ideas produce. So feel free to add me to your list of pcb makers. And as a side comment, I was told a year after I was hired into my first engineering position ahead of more qualified graduates, that it was because I had far more practical experience; I had been etching pcbs in my bedroom for years while still at high school.

 

Cheers,

 

Ross

 

Ross McKenzie ValuSoft Melbourne Australia

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8< There is, surprisingly, no place to get a PCB made in Nevada (that I know of).

 

Using a well known search engine I found http://www.pcb-solutions.com/ based in Reno.

 

David

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Ross

 

It seems like not much has changed then!, I work with mechanical engineers and they consider just a bread board wizardry! so my PCB's get a lot of (undeserved) credit just because they have never seen anyone make one before

 

I am really impressed that you made them in your bedroom though, was the carpet still OK after you moved out? !

 

My academic supervisor used to make them back in his day and he always jokes about the acid tank in the kitchen, and how the Uni can  make boards but the only difference is the tank isn't in the kitchen! i.e hes saying its just acid etched

 

So I am well impressed you managed to negotiate the location you did, in my house I have had arguments with the Mrs over the mess, she always asks do I think this is normal! and a few times the nagging has ended up snowballing into a full blown argument but I also have a full lab in the dining room!, I refuse to be outcast to upstairs, spare bedroom or whatever because I spend so much time in here. I keep telling her me and all this stuff come as part of a package, its been like this for over 5 years now and the equipment is just growing and growing with no sign of letting up. I am the boss around here ha ha

 

I would guess a lot of the engineers on here make or have made their own boards before, its a really practical oriented site but Ross you are on my persons of interest list for a long time, I believe you were involved with Vaisala

 

I love science and I enjoy making or trying to make scientific instruments, I can think of a few discussions to have with you because I don't really know anyone else that has experience in this area times have changed too and I think its probably easier to build good instrumentation that performs better, the new Art of Electronics is rich in this area, its a lot better than the older editions which is something

 

Last Edited: Sun. May 17, 2015 - 12:25 PM
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Jamie,

 

I was in high school in the 60s and my parents were "flat out" keeping an eye on what my 3 younger brothers were up to. I was the poster boy apparently. I used ferric chloride in those days and a Dalo pen making guitar effects units for muso friends. Then graduated to Bishop Graphics tapes and pads and a mercury vapor lamp inside the metal box bread cupboard in my mother's kitchen cabinet. She was extremely tolerant of my "experiments". The carpet was fine when I left home to start life with my bride at age 23. And she has been very tolerant for the past 42 years of my ongoing activities. My first Chinese produced pcbs were in about 2004 for a small job for Intel Malaysia; all the previous boards were done at one of the ever diminishing list of Australian board houses. These days I make my prototypes using pre-sensitised boards, a home made ultraviolet exposure "affair" and etch with ammonium persulphate in the spare bathroom. Then, providing it fits all the specifications, the gerbers are sent to China for production.

 

But please don't think that I am some sort of one-off here. For example (if I may embarrass him) Jay Carter (DocJC) does his own pcbs also... when he isn't sewing up someone's wounds. And he does a great job at both! (Just browse the https://www.avrfreaks.net/forum/p... thread for some fine examples of his work). And there are many others.

 

And as for people working in the science field, there are some much greater examples here than me. Heavens I am an amateur by comparison.

 

Cheers,

 

Ross

 

Ross McKenzie ValuSoft Melbourne Australia

Last Edited: Sun. May 17, 2015 - 01:52 PM
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DocJC does seem to have PCB's down to a T

 

It looks like he is doing through hole plating I am interested in hearing about his process, there are some very fine projects in that thread I think I should add some of my own, got a few as it goes the next one I will add

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blush

To tell the truth I usually get my PCB's made these days.

I do recall taping transparency paper on a light table years ago, and a few other methods over the years.

For a while even Tandy Radio Shack, (may they rest in peace), sold PCB etching "kits", with blank boards and a couple bottles of chemicals.

These days I have to decide how I want to spend my time, and for me at least, I would rather be soldering the PCB's, or (re) writing their code, than actually etching the boards.

I do like laying out the boards, however,  that is always a fun challenge. 

Once laid out, however, off to some PCB maker they go, (board only, I do the assembly).

 

The majority of my stuff is for personal use, and sometimes some one-off prototypes for others.

 

Carl, (microcarl), sent a small CNC machine to Chuck, who subsequently sent it to me.

Chuck added two books on CNC machining to the package, which was much appreciated.

Unfortunately I've not had enough time to build a new USB interface for the motor drivers, (a weekend project!).

The goal was to be able to CNC my own prototype PCB's.

 

Except for "simple" PCBs I suspect the lack of plated through holes on home machined boards may be a limiting factor.

I don't know / have a good process for automating that task.

 

In spite of Ross's kind words, however, note that my projects are all pretty simple!

There are, however, some truly impressive projects to be found in the link above, and in various Threads.

And some truly outstanding enclosures!

(On a 1 to 10 scale my enclosures would rate about a minus 500!)

 

While talking about projects I might as well mention for JS and Tom and a few others that my programmer project has been sitting on the back burner.

I unfortunately have a very big / important (medical) deadline for later this fall and that project occupies most of my "free" time when there is a block of more than an hour or two.

Unfortunately, the programmer project requires rather large blocks of time to make any real progress.

Hopefully, it will be back to the top of the project list in 2016.

In the meantime its just a few minutes here and there on Freaks, and with some simple, quickie, projects.

 

JC

 

 

 

 

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Doc the Pcb's on the first page look really good, I would call them perfect

 

How did you do those through holes, they look good and am I right its a proper tin plating not just solder? I always tin plate because it looks so much better and it does a job too

 

when he isn't sewing up someone's wounds

 

unfortunately have a very big / important (medical) deadline

Hmm, are you a medical Dr? it seems strange that someone in medicine would make such good electronics, its even stranger that they would have knowledge up to your level I mean if your a medical professional then this isn't even close to your subject!

 

 

 

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If we are talking about the little DDS signal generator, (4 PCB project), then that little SMD PCB was actually my first SMD project, and IIRC, the first one with that PCB layout program.

(Lots of learning on that project...)

 

In any event, that board wasn't homemade, so I can't take credit for the plated through holes.

They were done for me.

 

<Way off topic>

I practice Emergency Medicine.

I work in the ER, and also spend a fair amount of time with several rescue squads and a couple of SWAT Teams.

I try to work a couple shifts a month on the Helicopter, (which is my favorite job!), but sometimes it is hard to fit that into my schedule.

Electronics is primarily a hobby.

 

Debugging human system failure and debugging PCB system failure have a lot in common, at least from an overall approach point of view.

Do

What's the failure?, What's it suppose to do?, What is it doing?, What are the possible causes?, Which one is the cause today?, What's the solution?

Loop Until End-Of-Shift

 

</Way off topic>

 

JC

 

 

 

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DocJC wrote:
Except for "simple" PCBs I suspect the lack of plated through holes on home machined boards may be a limiting factor.

I don't know / have a good process for automating that task.

PCB "Fab-In-A-Box" ... The 8min circuit board system

Plated-Thru Holes

http://www.pcbfx.com/main_site/pages/tech_support/plated_thru_holes.html

"Dare to be naïve." - Buckminster Fuller

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I simply use a short piece of wire (resistor offcuts are good) to link opposite sided tracks.

 

Ross McKenzie ValuSoft Melbourne Australia

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DAFlippers wrote:

Using a well known search engine I found http://www.pcb-solutions.com/ based in Reno.

I know of that company. I can get PCBs made in China too, and not have to pay the middle man.

 

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Not all PCBs are made in China:

 

Domestic: Prototypes Double Sided: 24-48 Hours + Transit (cut off 9:00 a.m. PST) Multilayer: 24-48 Hours + Transit (cut off 9:00 a.m. PST) Pre-Production Double Sided: 3-4 Days + Transit Multilayer: 4-5 Days + Transit

Off Shore: Prototypes Double Sided: 3 Days + 2 Day Transit Multilayer: 4 Days + 2 Day Transit Pre-Production Double Sided: 4-5 Days + 4 Day Transit Multilayer: 5-6 Days + 4 Day Transit

 

At least that's what they say on their website.

 

David

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I use elecfreaks.com for small quantity boards. Very nice quality, 10 copies for $16 on a small board, but slow. Usually they ship them a day or two after I order, but it takes 3 weeks to leave China Post. Then a couple days to get here. A couple times I've paid extra for DHL shipping: Then they shipped them 3 weeks after I ordered and were here in a couple days

 

For something simple when I don't want to wait, I etch a 1 sided board myself. Used to use Ferric Chloride, but Copper Chloride is much nicer. In the olden days I too drew the design with a marker, the moved to the black tape patterns and shapes. Now I toner transfer and get nice results, though sometimes it takes a couple tries to get a good transfer. I find my laminator needs to be on for like half an hour AFTER the ready light comes on.

 

Relax: I etch in the bathroom, not the kitchen

The largest known prime number: 282589933-1

Without adult supervision.

Last Edited: Mon. May 18, 2015 - 01:03 PM
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I simply use a short piece of wire (resistor offcuts are good) to link opposite sided tracks.

 The problem is mostly with signals that travel though a PT Hole that is a component lead of a component that can not be soldered on both sides of the board.  Like a header or IC socket.

Yes, you can design around this.   But it's a pain, decreases your board density, and make it harder to route the rest of the signals.

 

 

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DAFlippers wrote:

Not all PCBs are made in China:

My point is, they are not a PCB manufacturer. They're an agent for PCB manufacturers.

 

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For PTH that can't be soldered on both sides, I take 2 stands out of a 7x24 gauge stranded wire. I put the strands through the hole and solder the top strands to the top trace that leaves the component.. If there are several of these, for that component, I do the same for all connections. I then insert the component and solder a couple of component pins on the bottom side. Then I wrap the strands coming through the holes around the bottom pins and solder. Takes a little practice to make it easy and it is a little time consuming but it works. SMT ICs require a really flat solder connection on the top trace if the only trace is inside the IC pins. Otherwise you will have problems with the IC sitting too high for the pins to reach the pads.

 

That said, I only make prototype boards at home if I need a board NOW. I purchase negative photo resist dry film out of China. I use a laminator to apply the dry film to the blank board material. I have been doing this for the last 25 years. Before the internet and Ebay, I obtained the dry film from a local board house where I knew the owner.

 

If I can wait 3 weeks for the boards (which I can most of the time), I order the boards from Smart Prototyping out of China. I get 10 boards (10cm x 10cm) for $23 which includes shipping. For that price I am not going to waste my time making a board.

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bphillips wrote:

If I can wait 3 weeks for the boards (which I can most of the time), I order the boards from Smart Prototyping out of China. I get 10 boards (10cm x 10cm) for $23 which includes shipping. For that price I am not going to waste my time making a board.

 

Perhaps I'll try them next time.

The largest known prime number: 282589933-1

Without adult supervision.

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Bignoob wrote:
I believe Texas/Nevada/Arizona has some of the most backwards chemical laws in the world, ...

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