Old and Dusty chips

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So I found some old and dusty AT90S2313's

Thought I would use them up (only 2 left).

I recently obtained an AVRISP mkii (cuzz no parallel port on my new computer.)

So time to toss my home brew parallel programming dongle. (Good thing I didn't)

I know that the Atmel Studio 6 does not wish to support the old chips..
(Thats fine..)

So I loaded the older 4.19 (works in Windows 7 64 bit) sweet !!

Thing is.. when I go to "Flash" the old chip

The AT90S2313 is not listed to be flashed. (using the AVRISP mkii)
still only lists the new ATtiny and Atmega chips..

??????

----

I assume that the reason is the AVRISP mkii only has the "New Chip" info in it now ??

Is there Any way.. to make it legacy again ?? (so I could use those dusty chips.)

Or how is this controlled as to what can be flashed. ??

"We look for things.. Things that make us go."

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Just use avrdude.

Note that you need to install libusb before avrdude can talk to Atmel USB programmers.
You can use libusb and Jungo drivers on the same PC. e.g. avrdude and Studio.

David.

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BTW you have attached a crystal (and caps) haven't you? The 90S models didn't have internal RC so you have to provide a clock before you can program them. (seems like too much pain to me!)

Alternatively provide a clock to the XTAL1 pin. The techniques in my "recovering a locked out AVR" for providing a clock would work. That includes using a second AVR either toggling pins or with the CLKOUT signal activated.

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david.prentice wrote:
Just use avrdude.

Note that you need to install libusb before avrdude can talk to Atmel USB programmers.
You can use libusb and Jungo drivers on the same PC. e.g. avrdude and Studio.

David.

Well I was just trying to stay away from command line
stuff..

May as well continue with using my home brew parallel programmer.. (and fire up the old computer)

less hastle..

I need a crystal and caps. ????

Thought the (SCK)/pin took care of that signal.

Funny that AVRdude can run the AVRISP mkii but AVR studio can't..

near one in the same you would think.

"We look for things.. Things that make us go."

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Quote:

Thought the (SCK)/pin took care of that signal.

No.

(High voltage parallel programming is synchronous but attaching a crystal or other clock source is easier than that!)

Quote:
near one in the same you would think.

Clearly avrdude shows that technically Studio could support 90S chips. It's a deliberate choice on Atmel's part not to support them. Why should they encourage you to use chips you cannot actually buy any more - there's nothing in it for them!

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AVRProg which comes with Studio (top line under tools) will program them HOWEVER you will need an older AVR910 type serial port programmer.

John Samperi

Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.

www.ampertronics.com.au

* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly

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Well I don't need any xtal when using my home brew "Parallel" programmer dongle.
(even with the AT90s series)

Don't think it can be a "high voltage" programmer
as it is all 5 volt driven from the LPT port.

I thought High Voltage programming was when a 12v
source was (switching) connected to the reset pin.
in some way..

----

No benefit to ATMEL to support old chips.
No benefit to me either

(But would be nice)

Thought it was the "Studio" software that controlled
the "Flash" support aspect.

Not that the ISP mkii restricted it.

this is why I loaded up avr studio 4.19
to use them 90's up

Oh well (Back to version 6) same old same old

"We look for things.. Things that make us go."

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Quote:
Well I don't need any xtal when using my home brew "Parallel" programmer dongle.
But you WILL need a crystal to run the chip as they don't have any internal clock like newer chips.

John Samperi

Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.

www.ampertronics.com.au

* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly

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I am confused. You can use regular SPI from 2.5V - 5V in-circuit-serial-programming. This takes 6 lines: RST, SCK, MISO, MOSI, GND, VCC.

If you add a 7th line, you can supply an external clock to XTAL1 pin. You are still doing "low-voltage ICSP".

As far as I know, HVPP, HVSP, require +12V on the RESET line. In the case of HVPP, you also need about 16 more lines.

I admire your courage to persevere with the 90S2313 chips. They are really SLOW to program and are about a tenth as clever as the Tiny2313.

I find it difficult to understand the reluctance to use a command line with the enthusiasm to use obsolete chips. However, you only need to write a .BAT file once, and then you can click on it.

David.

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js wrote:
But you WILL need a crystal to run the chip as they don't have any internal clock like newer chips.

Oh ya.. I know..

Thought you ment when programming. (with the dongle)

---------

david wrote:
I find it difficult to understand the reluctance to use a command line with the enthusiasm to use obsolete chips. However, you only need to write a .BAT file once, and then you can click on it.

David.

Just more software... and I'll mess it up for sure.. :D

Just wanted to use up my last 2 old and dusty chips.
wasn't saying New isn't better.

I hate thowing out a working chip.

Just wanted to know if there was a way to revert
the AVRISP mkii (back) to a point where it would flash the old AT90's (using avr studio 4.19)

Like an off line (down grade) file then upgrade it again after flashing the old ones.

but if not no problem (have the old dongle)
I'm trying to get away from the old chips.

"We look for things.. Things that make us go."

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Quote:

Just wanted to know if there was a way to revert
the AVRISP mkii (back) to a point where it would flash the old AT90's (using avr studio 4.19)

It is most likely a question of host software, i.e. AVR Studio, supporting or not supporting that chip. Have you tried an older 4.x version? (It still might want to downgrade the firmware of your mk II, though.)

As of January 15, 2018, Site fix-up work has begun! Now do your part and report any bugs or deficiencies here

No guarantees, but if we don't report problems they won't get much of  a chance to be fixed! Details/discussions at link given just above.

 

"Some questions have no answers."[C Baird] "There comes a point where the spoon-feeding has to stop and the independent thinking has to start." [C Lawson] "There are always ways to disagree, without being disagreeable."[E Weddington] "Words represent concepts. Use the wrong words, communicate the wrong concept." [J Morin] "Persistence only goes so far if you set yourself up for failure." [Kartman]

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JohanEkdahl wrote:
Quote:

Just wanted to know if there was a way to revert
the AVRISP mkii (back) to a point where it would flash the old AT90's (using avr studio 4.19)

It is most likely a question of host software, i.e. AVR Studio, supporting or not supporting that chip. Have you tried an older 4.x version? (It still might want to downgrade the firmware of your mk II, though.)

When I had the 4.19 version loaded and the AVRISP mkii
connected ready to flash.. I was not able to find the "at90s2313" in the device list..

Only the same list that I seen when using Version 6
(listing ATtiny and ATmega) and the few standard others

(Automatic) Down grade did not happen.. "Didn't try clicking" look fo updates..

But would that Work ?? (my guess is not)

"We look for things.. Things that make us go."

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Quote:
But would that Work ??
No, because the xml file for the chip doesn't show the AVRISP mkii as a programmer.

I think a while ago there was some attempts to modify the files so that some older chip like the Mega8 could be programmed.

But it's really a lot of uncertain work for very little.

This old AVR910 programmer can do the chips https://www.avrfreaks.net/index.p...

However you need a programmer to start off with to program the 90S2313 with the programmer code.

John Samperi

Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.

www.ampertronics.com.au

* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly

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Quote:
Just wanted to use up my last 2 old and dusty chips.

I see that Farnell are charging quite a lot of money for a Tiny2313A and even a Tiny4313. All the same, it seems a lot of trouble to use the obsolete chips.

If you are obsessed with not using avrdude, you could download an obsolete Studio3 or early Studio4 version.

Personally, I would guess that you could write a suitable XML for the 90Sxxx chip to work with current AVRISP-2 firmware. However the 90Sxxx algorithms are very different to the modern paged devices. Obviously this depends on how good the Studio XML parsing works.

David.

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Quote:

When I had the 4.19 version loaded and the AVRISP mkii
connected ready to flash.. I was not able to find the "at90s2313" in the device list..

So, have you tried an older 4.x version, then?

As of January 15, 2018, Site fix-up work has begun! Now do your part and report any bugs or deficiencies here

No guarantees, but if we don't report problems they won't get much of  a chance to be fixed! Details/discussions at link given just above.

 

"Some questions have no answers."[C Baird] "There comes a point where the spoon-feeding has to stop and the independent thinking has to start." [C Lawson] "There are always ways to disagree, without being disagreeable."[E Weddington] "Words represent concepts. Use the wrong words, communicate the wrong concept." [J Morin] "Persistence only goes so far if you set yourself up for failure." [Kartman]

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My Studio 4 is a 4.19 Build 528 (at least on this computer :) ) and there I can select a at90s2313.
It's nice to know that I need to keep it! (I think I have 20 of the old 2313 :) )

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sparrow2 wrote:
My Studio 4 is a 4.19 Build 528 (at least on this computer :) ) and there I can select a at90s2313.
It's nice to know that I need to keep it! (I think I have 20 of the old 2313 :) )

Wow ... I guess you didn't let Atmel update your Programmer..

Or by "Can Select" you mean when you start a project..

So can I... (I can make and compile code for one)

But not to "Flash"... Not listed.

"We look for things.. Things that make us go."

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js wrote:
Quote:
But would that Work ??
No, because the xml file for the chip doesn't show the AVRISP mkii as a programmer.

I think a while ago there was some attempts to modify the files so that some older chip like the Mega8 could be programmed.

But it's really a lot of uncertain work for very little.

This old AVR910 programmer can do the chips https://www.avrfreaks.net/index.p...

However you need a programmer to start off with to program the 90S2313 with the programmer code.

Well don't have one of the AVR910 programmers..
avr studio 4.19 does detect the AVRISP mkii.
no problem

just no 90's chips listed in the (usable) device list.
when flashing.

But any way.. I'll just use the Parallel pgm'er
and use "ICprog" that I know worked in the past.

SO thanks guys..

Would have been nice to use AVR studio (alone).. not needing
all the other diff types of software..

"We look for things.. Things that make us go."

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Quote:
and there I can select a at90s2313.
Is this with a REAL Atmel AVRISP Mk2?

I don't have one so I can't check with the hardware, I can select it in Disconnect mode with AS4.18 SP3 but that means nothing.

edit so you have been using the programmer with AS6 and then plugged it into AS4.19? That could be the reason why it doesn't work, you can force an AS4 "upgrade" if it doesn't happen automatically because the firmware number is higher than what AS4 expects.

John Samperi

Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.

www.ampertronics.com.au

* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly

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Quote:

I can select it in Disconnect mode with AS4.18 SP3 but that means nothing.

I believe it means everything. It is my firm belief that AVRISP mkII in itself does not contain any list of supported devices. The list is either coded into AS4 or (more likely) created by AS4 when it runs (from e.g. AVR part files).

I have a nagging feeling/memory that some devices supported earlier was removed in the 4.19 release.

Three times is the absolute limit for me so this is the last time I'll ask/tip about this (but will, for once, resort to screaming to see if "kds" actually takes note of anything here:

Have you tried an older 4.x version?

As of January 15, 2018, Site fix-up work has begun! Now do your part and report any bugs or deficiencies here

No guarantees, but if we don't report problems they won't get much of  a chance to be fixed! Details/discussions at link given just above.

 

"Some questions have no answers."[C Baird] "There comes a point where the spoon-feeding has to stop and the independent thinking has to start." [C Lawson] "There are always ways to disagree, without being disagreeable."[E Weddington] "Words represent concepts. Use the wrong words, communicate the wrong concept." [J Morin] "Persistence only goes so far if you set yourself up for failure." [Kartman]

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JohanEkdahl wrote:

Have you tried an older 4.x version?

No

All I can find for download is 4.19.730 or newer.

What data file in AVR studio holds the
(Flashable) parts list data

"We look for things.. Things that make us go."

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UPDATE:

Found em...
http://www.atmel.ca/tools/STUDIO...

How Old of a version (That would work) in Windows 7 64 bit ??

and contain the "Flashing" data for AT90s series

"We look for things.. Things that make us go."

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Are you SURE your copy of 4.19 does not support 90S2313 for AVRISPmkII? Mine does...

Attachment(s): 

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Cliff,

I think that "updating" a Studio4 just writes new XML files. I added several AT89Sxxx chips and they continue to appear with "later" Studio4 installations.

I can probably dig out a 90Sxxxx XML file if I try hard enough.

I still reckon it is simpler to just use avrdude.

Incidentally, CodeVision.v2.60 can compile for a
AT90S2313 but can't find the header file for AT90S4414. Since I no longer possess a 90S2313, I have not tried using the CodeVision programmer. However, I think that CV uses Atmel's atprogram.exe with Atmel branded programmers. I suspect it will use its own software for the many non-Atmel programmers that it supports.

I still reckon it is simpler to just use avrdude.

David.

Oops. Just looked at my Studio4 "PartDescriptionFiles" directory. The AS4 installer must have removed my AT89Sxxx descriptions (or they were on a different PC). Yes, AT90S2313.xml is dated 25/08/2011 just like all the other XML files.

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clawson wrote:
Are you SURE your copy of 4.19 does not support 90S2313 for AVRISPmkII? Mine does...

Humm.. (Yes I am sure)

I looked a few time.. just in case I was having one
of those days.. (when you can't see something)
right under your nose..

The version of 4.19 I have was not downloaded from
ATMEL's archive site..

I think I am going to swap it.. (for the file at ATMEL)

(Perhaps) a file is missing in mine.

"We look for things.. Things that make us go."

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Well Thought I had it for a bit

But:

AT90s2313 (For Example) will show in "Disconnected Mode"

But not in "Connected Mode" for the AVRISP mkii

So the AVRISP mkii firmware has something to do with it

Attachment(s): 

"We look for things.. Things that make us go."

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kds12345 wrote:
Well Thought I had it for a bit

But:

AT90s2313 (For Example) will show in "Disconnected Mode"

But not in "Connected Mode" for the AVRISP mkii

So the AVRISP mkii firmware has something to do with it

Which leads to an obvious question :

Why do Atmel not show the firmware version needed, next to the possible candidates list ?

Telling the user nothing, and simply removing a part from the list, is a very Microsoft-like fumble.

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hmmm didn't some wise person say

Quote:
I can select it in Disconnect mode with AS4.18 SP3 but that means nothing.
:wink:

John Samperi

Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.

www.ampertronics.com.au

* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly

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I no longer own an AT90S2313. I have never owned an AVRISP-2.
If I did, then I would:

1. try historic AS4 / CodeVision / Bascom ...
2. force firmware downgrade on the AVRISP-2
3. try AS4 etc again

I am fairly sure that this process will succeed (after a lot of effort)

I am also fairly sure that you could simply use avrdude without any changes of software or firmware.

Let's face it. You have two obsolete chips. You can only run very simple programs on these chips. The Tiny2313 or Tiny2313A has much better capabilities.

For the sake of typing the avrdude command into a BAT file as a one-off job, you are suffering a lot of grief. Once you have created your BAT file, you can click away to your heart's content.

Likewise, I could play a 78rpm phonograph disk or wax cylinder if I really wanted. (and a lot of effort)
I could also download a digitised version of many 78rpm disks and play immediately on my PC. (with zero effort)

David.

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Quote:
You can only run very simple programs on these chips

Thats because you don't do ASM programming ;)

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No, it is because I would use the hardware of a modern chip.

I will admit to spending a lot of time and effort doing something that is better done with a $1 chip.

I would guess that the OP could make use of his obsolete chips with "simple" code. Why go to great lengths when you could use "complex" code with a Tiny2313?

Ok, the 90S2313 is a lot better endowed than the 90S1200. (where you have to bit-bang almost everything)

David.