New ATtiny10 - the first ever 6-pin AVR

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mcollas wrote:
I'd assumed that avr-gcc's register usage would be an issue. For example, r0 as a temp register, r1 as a zero register and pairs down to r9:r8 used for function calls. Maybe I'm wrong about that, and it could already handle the reduced core. Now that I think about it, avr-gcc will probably be updated well before the tiny10 is actually available.

You're probably right - the removal of r0 through r15 would likely require significant effort in the GCC back-end, not to mention the work that would be needed in the libraries.

Heck, something as fundamental as initializing global RAM variables in the startup routine would have to be rewritten to remove LPM and add awareness of the progmem-to-data address remapping.

I haven't seen any mention of any reduced core devices in any of the CVS history in avr-libc, and I only found one passing reference to the "new" ATtiny10 in the mailing lists, so at the very least there's no publicly visible evidence of movement on that front yet.

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theusch wrote:

Tell more about the types of apps where you might use this. I could make a function generator, or a small one-output industrial timer with two pots for on/off duration setting, but I'm not really saving anything unless I make a zillion of them. I'd guess it would only be a few cents less than a Tiny25 in low quantities.

One application I an see is switch debouncing. Another would be as a push on push off controller using a momentary switch, similar to the ATX power switch on your PC. As a replacement for tiny-logic circuits. 555 replacement. Basically any application where I need something simple, but it isn't cost, or space, effective to throw down a larger micro.

Writing code is like having sex.... make one little mistake, and you're supporting it for life.

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Quote:
It's nice to see that Atmel has documented the new programming interface (TPI) - it would have been disappointing if they'd introduced another undocumented one like DebugWIRE.
I'd be happier if they'd stuck with one freakin' interface, instead of having FOUR different ones for one series of ICs (not mentioning the HVPP methods). I hope they'll release a version of dragon software that'll support it.

theusch: Blinkies, single switch on/off stuff, supervisors, watchdogs, and the ton of little stuff you'd normally wouldn't use a processor to do (like simple frequency generation - where you'd put a 555, or some logic or ...)

There are pointy haired bald people.
Time flies when you have a bad prescaler selected.

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I guess I just don't have those kinds of apps. Switch debounce--software on the input pin to the "main" AVR. Frequency generation--only part of a "main" AVR app--do it there. The 16-bit timer is a nice touch, though--but that is about the only thing that beats a Tiny25. I'd have to be making a zillion of them for the cost difference to matter.

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

I've never met a pig I didn't like, as long as you have some salt and pepper.

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glitch:

Quote:

sparrow2 wrote:
And I have to add that this datasheet is the first for a non x mega where the instruction set show the correct flag handling (so the errors form 1996 is removed! ) Goooood news.

What flag handling errors are you referring to?


all old datasheet tell that ADD change ZCNVH and now it's changed to ZCNVSH

About the old data books does anyone have the 1996 AVR book ?
Thats before the 1200, when it was a 1300 (more eeprom).

I don't know why some RET should take 5 CLK, but I think that is a copy error form the XMEGA datasheet!

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I was thinking of a "one-wire" like serial interface that could report on the status of an encoder, such that one could string several together on a single wire to service a couple of encoders. The idea is to off-load state change detection and state management from the host.

Lets see:
Two pins for power and ground.
Two pins for quadrature encoder inputs
One pin for serial I/O.
One analog pin with a resistor divider to set the device bus address (ouch)
or allow only two addresses set by (hi/lo) logic state of this pin

Jim

Jim Wagner Oregon Research Electronics, Consulting Div. Tangent, OR, USA http://www.orelectronics.net

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I like to make my encoders "smart", with "reset count" and similar commands. I guess you could do that over the "1-wire".

Maybe a high-res encoder with very high "tick" rates--but then you ain't gonna get the counts count down the wire anyway.

I still don't see it. Again, compare to Tiny25 with a higher max clock rate. If a zillion of them, maybe. For a few or modest amount I don't have the app(s) in my mind.

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

I've never met a pig I didn't like, as long as you have some salt and pepper.

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Quote:
Two pins for power and ground.

We had a battery with two plus poles in a thread the other day. You just might get away with only the power pin... :)

As of January 15, 2018, Site fix-up work has begun! Now do your part and report any bugs or deficiencies here

No guarantees, but if we don't report problems they won't get much of  a chance to be fixed! Details/discussions at link given just above.

 

"Some questions have no answers."[C Baird] "There comes a point where the spoon-feeding has to stop and the independent thinking has to start." [C Lawson] "There are always ways to disagree, without being disagreeable."[E Weddington] "Words represent concepts. Use the wrong words, communicate the wrong concept." [J Morin] "Persistence only goes so far if you set yourself up for failure." [Kartman]

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Yea, right (with sarcasm)! There is also this bridge in Brooklyn, NY.....

Jim

Jim Wagner Oregon Research Electronics, Consulting Div. Tangent, OR, USA http://www.orelectronics.net

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sparrow2 wrote:
glitch:
Quote:

sparrow2 wrote:
And I have to add that this datasheet is the first for a non x mega where the instruction set show the correct flag handling (so the errors form 1996 is removed! ) Goooood news.

What flag handling errors are you referring to?


all old datasheet tell that ADD change ZCNVH and now it's changed to ZCNVSH

Ah... well it has been correct in the instruction-set reference since at least REV B (06/99) Hence my confusion. I never look at the tables at the back of the datasheet except to see what instructions are actually supported by a particular model. For an operational reference I'm always referring to the instruction set reference.

Writing code is like having sex.... make one little mistake, and you're supporting it for life.

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theusch wrote:
I guess I just don't have those kinds of apps. Switch debounce--software on the input pin to the "main" AVR. Frequency generation--only part of a "main" AVR app--do it there. The 16-bit timer is a nice touch, though--but that is about the only thing that beats a Tiny25. I'd have to be making a zillion of them for the cost difference to matter.

I'm referring to applications where I don't necessarily have a "main" AVR. Or applications where I need to clean up the signal before passing it onto some other logic before it even gets to the host processor.

Sure in a single use/single application I may not save much over a larger AVR. But having this single chip around where I can use it in multiple places for multiple functions on the same board for logic, and circuit replacements, the cost savings begin to add up.

Writing code is like having sex.... make one little mistake, and you're supporting it for life.

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Quote:

I'm referring to applications where I don't necessarily have a "main" AVR. Or applications where I need to clean up the signal before passing it onto some other logic before it even gets to the host processor.

I don't have any of those--I'm full-time 100% AVR.

But now that y'all have gotten me going I'm sketching out the "world's smallest function generator". I've got an automatic pencil "lead" container that is 5mm x 10mm x 60mm inside dimension. I'm also sizing up butane lighter cases, or Tictac case, or similar.

So I have my Tiny10 driving a MOSFET off OC0A, going to a 2.5mm or 3.5mm stereo audio jack. Two pots for setting frequency and either amplitude or duty cycle. A power switch, perhaps, or a timeout to go to deep sleep. A button on /RESET -- every reset it changes modes, like a string of holiday lights.

Square wave with no filtering. Some filtering on the PWM for sawtooth, triangle, sine.

Button cell & holder, like 3V/3.6V, for AVR power. To get 5+V signal out, another button cell or provisions for an external applied voltage. TBD to have positive-only signals w.r.t. AVR's Gnd, or bipolar. Perhaps an LED or two multiplexed/charlieplexed with the pots?

Once I've got it what good is it?

Lee

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

I've never met a pig I didn't like, as long as you have some salt and pepper.

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The Sigi ad showed a RR crossing arm and control box and a young lady who was a tech writer at the time. The box was supposed to be the memory. One pin device that anticipated the Dallas scheme.

The ATTiny10 might be aimed at remote sensor encoding in a very small space.

"It's easier to ask forgiveness than it is to get permission" - Admiral "Amazing" Grace Hopper.

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theusch: Are you saying that there's no application for it, or that you don't have an application for it?

There are pointy haired bald people.
Time flies when you have a bad prescaler selected.

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daqq--I cannot think of one where it would be advantageous for adding it to one of my AVR apps. Re the "control box" mention above--space (compared to say a Tiny25) is the least of one's worries; the power source is much much bigger. The only feature that it beats the Tiny25 is in 16-bit timer. The Tiny25 kicks it in all other respects. For example, if I'm going to use the single timer on the Tiny10 for PWM then I have to use watchdog interrupt for any other timing.

Only if you have a tiny (pun intended) device and you are making a zillion--say, batches of a "reel" of Tiny10s probably 2k or 3k--then the price may be 50% or 75% of the Tiny25.

What app would you propose where the Tiny10 is "better" than the Tiny25? There was the on/off switch above; that would be nice. How are you going to power it (when the device is "off"? A button cell I suppose.
http://www.goldmine-elec-product...
So if you do that for low-volume the price isn't going to matter much. Size? 3mm x 3mm tip-to-tip for the SOT23. 5mm x 8mm for the Tiny25 in SOIC.

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

I've never met a pig I didn't like, as long as you have some salt and pepper.

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How about a "personal intimate care" product? ;)
http://www.goldmine-elec-product...
http://www.goldmine-elec-product...

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

I've never met a pig I didn't like, as long as you have some salt and pepper.

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theusch wrote:
There was the on/off switch above; that would be nice. How are you going to power it (when the device is "off"? A button cell I suppose.

The standby supply of course. Whatever that might entail... a simple parasitic supply off of a raw AC or DC input, a coin-cell, or even a supercap would work.

Writing code is like having sex.... make one little mistake, and you're supporting it for life.

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The value of the ATtiny10 will depend on how expensive that it is. And how much it costs for a programmer to handle the new code-writing algorythm. Hopefully, the ATtiny10 will be available in a DIP package. I have high hopes for cheap and small microcontrollers.

I remember reading the write up of the Write-Only Memory as an electronics student. I was very confused as I was not able at that time to recognize a hoax.

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Price is already announced at $0.35 in 10K quantities. Only announced package is SOT23-6.

Writing code is like having sex.... make one little mistake, and you're supporting it for life.

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I will not look at this as a micro, but more like a component that can replace some opamp,comperators,logic,reset chip etc.
and I only have to stock one part.

Jens

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glitch wrote:
Price is already announced at $0.35 in 10K quantities. Only announced package is SOT23-6.

Anywhere to check the 10k price for ATtiny13A and ATtiny25 to compare with ATtiny10 prices?
I believe ATtiny13A is the cheapest AVR with 6 I/O-pins and ATtiny25 the second cheapest.

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theusch wrote:
Size? 3mm x 3mm tip-to-tip for the SOT23. 5mm x 8mm for the Tiny25 in SOIC.

AVR's with 6 I/O pins like ATtiny13A and ATtiny25/45/85 are also available in MLF-10 packages. MLF-10 pratically has the same small external dimensions as SOT23-6 if you include the pin leads.

10-pin MLF: 3 x 3 mm (nom) (has no external leads)
6-pin SOT-23: 2.9 x 2.8 mm (nom) (including leads)

The MLF-10 package is max 1 mm high while the SOT23 package is max 1.45 mm high.

So the reason to come out with this new ATtiny10 must be to cut price so that they can compete with PIC10F2xx, and even be fully pin-compatible to PIC10F2xx to make it easier to steal exsisting PIC10F2xx customers, as they do no have to make a new PCB and can always go back to using PIC again for one reason or another.
It's not to get a smaller package, as ATtiny already offer MLF-10 pacakges.

As mentioned the ATtiny10 is fully pin-compatible with PIC10F2xx and Atmel also made sure to point this out in their marketing material.
Atmel even introduced the new 3-pin Tiny Programming Interface (TPI) for ATtiny10 that's pin-comapatible with PIC10F2xx's 3-pin ICSP-programming interface.
So there's no question they are targeting exsisting PIC10F2xx customers with ATtiny10 as customers can switch to ATtiny10 without making a new PCB revision, even if they also have an ICSP-connector at the PCB.
So here's your answer why Atmel decided to come out with the new 3-pin TPI programming interface for ATtiny10. It's no coincidence Atmel made ATtiny10 fully pin-compatible with PIC10F2xx - even down to the same pin connections for serial programming.

3-pin serial programming interface (6-pin SOT-23 package) for PIC10F2xx ICSP and ATtiny10 TPI:
Pin 1: Data
Pin 3: Clock
Pin 6: Program voltage/enable
Pin 2: GND
Pin 5: VCC

Attachment(s): 

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Hmmm,

I think Atmel is walking into a ambush with this micro. :?
Look at this patent Microchip have:

[url]
http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo....
[/url]

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Quote:
I think Atmel is walking into a ambush with this micro.

Nope, they'll be fine.

This type of patent is easily broken. In fact, nearly all microprocessors now days implement multiple funtions for their I/O (including Atmel). The patent describes the use of a control register with multiple function blocks to change pin functions. The easy way to break this patent is to have multiple control registers, or a control register for each function block.

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That patent isn't relevant to PIC10s or ATtiny10s. I think it refers to devices like the latest 16-bit PICs which have a "Peripheral Pin Select" capability, allowing peripheral I/Os like ADC inputs to be assigned to any pin:

http://www.microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=2529&param=en531603

It can be very useful.

Leon

Leon Heller G1HSM

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I like the Von-Neuman architecture of the ATtiny10 (code space mapped into data space).
I hope, that also all other ATtiny/ATmega would be improved in this way.
Since then we can forget the nightmare of PROGMEM on AVR-GCC.

Peter

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sparrow2 wrote:
About the old data books does anyone have the 1996 AVR book ?
Thats before the 1200, when it was a 1300 (more eeprom).

Never head of AT90S1300. Wasn't AT90S1200 the first AVR to be released?
Was AT90S1300 just a paper release?

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ok people, great news. I'm sur you all know what does that mean to an avrfreak( samples,samples and samples). those who can get samples very fast, test the new kid and tell us more.

thanks for updating us.

Analog + Digital= 21 century technology and beyond. digital is easy, analog is professional!!!!!!!!!!

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Quote:

those who can get samples very fast, test the new kid and tell us more.

Why? Are you expecting it to do something it doesn't already say on the tin? (or, rather, in this case in the datasheet)

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you know when something is new usually there are lot of praises.when we start using it we will be able to tell its advantages and disadvantages. really its not about proving the datasheet wrong or right.

Analog + Digital= 21 century technology and beyond. digital is easy, analog is professional!!!!!!!!!!

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An AVR is an AVR is an AVR. On the whole the UARTs and the SPIs and and I2C's. If Atmel output a new combination of core+support blocks then would anyone expect those things to work in some different way? IN fact the hope would be that it would work the same as all the existing devices to make it easier to port between devices.

Now it's true that this one has some new goodies not seen on previous chips (like a crippled 16 register core, run time clock selection, "easier" access to flash data) so I guess there are new things to be explored but even without the chip we can all see exactly how those things work (assuming they DO work as the datasheet promises)

So the most exciting thing (perhaps as we've all found with Xmega too) is access to the datasheet not the silicon itself.

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an AVR is an AVR for sure. For us to understand the new chip is reading the datasheet as well as having the in hand( for some of us we learn better while doing it).

Analog + Digital= 21 century technology and beyond. digital is easy, analog is professional!!!!!!!!!!

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Quote:

for some of us we learn better while doing it

But surely that'd only be the case if it did something that wasn't documented in the datasheet? In the case of Atmel AVR this would appear to be a pretty rare occurence.

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my point is let explore the chip. i know its packed with a lot of goodies.

Analog + Digital= 21 century technology and beyond. digital is easy, analog is professional!!!!!!!!!!

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Quote:

i know its packed with a lot of goodies.

[editorial] It is actually "packed" with very little except limitations.

Lee

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

I've never met a pig I didn't like, as long as you have some salt and pepper.

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theusch wrote:
Quote:

i know its packed with a lot of goodies.

[editorial] It is actually "packed" with very little except limitations.

Lee

I guess we know who the optimist and who the pessimist in the crowd are. ;)

So tell me, is that cup half empty, or half full? :P

Writing code is like having sex.... make one little mistake, and you're supporting it for life.

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glitch wrote:
So tell me, is that cup half empty, or half full? :P
Is register set on tiny10 half empty or half full? ;)

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Quote:

Is register set on tiny10 half empty or half full?

Half-arsed?

(I'm not sure if that colloquialism is England only or whether it travels?)

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clawson wrote:
Quote:

Is register set on tiny10 half empty or half full?

Half-arsed?

(I'm not sure if that colloquialism is England only or whether it travels?)

LOL... half-arsed works here... at least in Canada.

Writing code is like having sex.... make one little mistake, and you're supporting it for life.

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Quote:

So tell me, is that cup half empty, or half full?

The cup is too big. (or "too small" in this case)

Unless you are doing a kazillion of extremely cheap and extremely simple thingies (like these air-freshener thingies?) I see no great advantage(s).

The price in a kazillion may (or may not) be about half that of a Tiny25, and in all probability will compare with the PIC and the Freescale.

But how many of us will do a kazillion of anything?

Tinyness? Again, rarely a problem unless you are making "motes". And how many of us are in that baliwick? (And the ones I have looked at have like a Mega88 and commo etc.--more power.)

Now, let's get on to the great internal features. Every mini-generation of AVR has new toyz, e.g. write to PINx to toggle. Memory-mapped flash? Interesting and maybe saves a couple of cycles dumping bitmaps to a graphics display. With a tiny flash & no chance for any bulk peripherals the only app I can think of is mini-DDS waveform generation. Nothing to get excited about.

No parameter storage? Big minus to me.

No low registers? OK; but then give me a GPIOR0 down low.

The cup is cracked. :twisted: There must be a reason that Atmel decided to put the effort into creating a PIC10F2-killer. I wonder what those apps are. Or is it just to complete the product line for competitive purposes?

Lee

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

I've never met a pig I didn't like, as long as you have some salt and pepper.

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Quote:

There must be a reason that Atmel decided to put the effort into creating a PIC10F2-killer.

Dont rule out the possibility that Atmel simply got a request for a gazillion of T10s from someone using the P10F2s today.

As of January 15, 2018, Site fix-up work has begun! Now do your part and report any bugs or deficiencies here

No guarantees, but if we don't report problems they won't get much of  a chance to be fixed! Details/discussions at link given just above.

 

"Some questions have no answers."[C Baird] "There comes a point where the spoon-feeding has to stop and the independent thinking has to start." [C Lawson] "There are always ways to disagree, without being disagreeable."[E Weddington] "Words represent concepts. Use the wrong words, communicate the wrong concept." [J Morin] "Persistence only goes so far if you set yourself up for failure." [Kartman]

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Imho, the main advantage of tiny10/pic10 is that it doesn't look like a microcontroller. Funny way to confuse smb who wants to understand what your device is consist of.

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Quote:

Atmel simply got a request for a gazillion of T10s

Quote:

I wonder what those apps are.

I am still trying to envision these apps. It's gotta be like a consumer product like those plug-in air fresheners, right?

Lee

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

I've never met a pig I didn't like, as long as you have some salt and pepper.

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Someday when I have "free time", I will make the ATiny10 do a pong game. It's the perfect chip to squeeze like that to see if it can actually be done. I say, YES it can.. including sound, and with nothing connected but a few resistors.

The Goal...
- A Pong style game that connects to any TV.
- Stable NTSC video with basic sound
- 2 colors will be possible at 14.318 MHz
- 1 Player "paddle" style joystick

Next time I order from Digikey, I will get a few to mess around with.

Brad

I Like to Build Stuff : http://www.AtomicZombie.com

Last Edited: Wed. Apr 22, 2009 - 08:24 PM
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One inspiration for our imagination here is to think of applications with just one push button (or other input) controlling "one thing", eg: Electric toothbrushes? Remotes for car locks? LED Torches or LED bike lights? Water boilers? Dimmers? Thermostats on radiators? Door bells? Fan controllers? ...

Aside, somewhat: Right now I need a small AVR with a lot of flash for a prank thing I will most probaly never build (but I am giggling several times every day when I am in the situation where it would fit). One input and one output would do, but I need maybe 64 K flash.. A Mega/Tiny bastard, say ATtega64 or maybe ATminy128. As it's a one-or-few-off, if I ever do it it will prolly end up with a mega48/88/168, as those are what I have at home most often, and a memory card of some sort.

As of January 15, 2018, Site fix-up work has begun! Now do your part and report any bugs or deficiencies here

No guarantees, but if we don't report problems they won't get much of  a chance to be fixed! Details/discussions at link given just above.

 

"Some questions have no answers."[C Baird] "There comes a point where the spoon-feeding has to stop and the independent thinking has to start." [C Lawson] "There are always ways to disagree, without being disagreeable."[E Weddington] "Words represent concepts. Use the wrong words, communicate the wrong concept." [J Morin] "Persistence only goes so far if you set yourself up for failure." [Kartman]

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Quote:
One analog pin with a resistor divider to set the device bus address (ouch)

That IS doable, if you limit yourself to using the first 3 or 4 MSBs, or just use that extra pin as a chip select, kinda defeats the purpose of one-wire, but it's an option.

I could have used one of these in a project a few months ago, granted I wouldn't have two extra pins to debug with, but ohwell.

As far as hobbyist applications go, it really is a bit limited, except maybe to off load simple, but processor intensive tasks (like the encoders or devices that require polling). I kinda doubt that I'll be using it in any of my projects.

Bear in mind, AVRfreaks are probably not Atmel's biggest customer. I know that this community is very important to support and promote their products, but we are not the reason they do business.

Free cookie to the first guy to squeeze USB 1.1 out of one of these!

"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools."
-- Douglas Adams

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Quote:

One inspiration for our imagination here is to think of applications with just one push button (or other input) controlling "one thing", eg: Electric toothbrushes? Remotes for car locks? LED Torches or LED bike lights? Water boilers? Dimmers? Thermostats on radiators? Door bells? Fan controllers? ...

Not bad. Most/all size matters. Most/all high-volume so cost matters.

Quote:

Someday when I have "free time", I will make the ATiny10 do a pong game. It's the perfect chip to squeeze like that to see if it can actually be done. I say, YES it can.. including sound, and with nothing connected but a few resistors.

The Goal...
- A Pong style game that connects to any TV.
- Stable NTSC video with basic sound
- 2 colors will be possible at 14.318 MHz
- 1 Player "paddle" style joystick


If anyone can do that, you can. No external components? (where a bigger AVR might be substituted)

Quote:
Next time I order from Digikey, I will get a few ...

... if the next time you order from DigiKey is next year.

Quote:
- 2 colors will be possible at 14.318 MHz

Quote:
• Speed Grade
– 0 - 4 MHz @ 1.8 - 5.5V
– 0 - 8 MHz @ 2.7 - 5.5V
– 0 - 12 MHz @ 4.5 - 5.5V

Speed limits are advisory. :lol: (Compare to Tiny25 where you can get that MHz at the supply voltage of a button cell. 5V of supply will dwarf (pun intended) any size advantages and cost advantages.)

Lee

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

I've never met a pig I didn't like, as long as you have some salt and pepper.

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Bummer, next year before I can get an AT10!

Oh well, maybe I will try it with the ATiny13 first, as Digikey has those. As long as I keep the ATiny10 memory size in mind, it will port 100% later. I guess to be fair and keep with the device constraints, overclocking should be avoided. The internal 8Mhz clock could still push out a 200x200 monochrome video signal though, not mention sparing up another IO pin to make it a 2 player game!

Thanks, "theusch"!

Brad

I Like to Build Stuff : http://www.AtomicZombie.com

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I still think it is an April's fool, the data sheet clearly show the T10 to be an 8 pin device not 6pin. :roll:

Attachment(s): 

John Samperi

Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.

www.ampertronics.com.au

* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly

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One could always reduce the pin count of a larger AVR like this...


A home brew 4-pin AVR.

... there may be IO contention though!

Brad

I Like to Build Stuff : http://www.AtomicZombie.com

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