Linux toolchains, debugging and IDEs

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I'm considering a switch to Linux, due to Windows 10. The one major bit of software I'm unable to run on Linux is Atmel Studio 7, so I'm looking for alternatives.

 

I'm mainly doing 8 bit AVRs, tiny/mega/xmega. What I'm looking for is a reasonably nice IDE with source level debugging capability (AtmelICE). I will need to integrate some ASF code, and import projects created with Atmel Studio 7.

 

Is there anything like this for Linux? All I can see is a few IDEs with basic GCC integration, but no real debugging capability, and manually extracting stuff from the ASF archive.

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Usual suspects are Code::Blocks, Eclipse, Netbeans, etc - all the well known C/C++ development IDEs for Linux. Most have a "plugin" to add AVR awareness to them.

 

The debugging is done using avr-gdb. These IDEs know how to interact with GDB so at the high level side of things it's all sorted. However avr-gdb needs to "talk" to Atmel debuggers like JTAGICEmkII, Dragon, Atmel-ICE etc and for that the "pipeline" is provided by "avarice". It runs as a separate process and provides a TCP port that can be connected to by GDB. At the debug side of things the avr-gdb is told to connect to that TCP port (usually on "localhost" because it's all on the one PC) and the dialog starts.

 

The thing I miss more than anything is actually the simluator. There is a software simulator for Linux (or Windows for that matter) called SimulAVR that can be run alongside and "connected to" by avr-gdb in the same way it connects to avraice and a real ICE but it's very limited compared to the one in AS7.

 

Personally I keep a Win10 laptop almost solely for the purpose of still being able to use Win7.

 

How I wish Atmel had followed the original AVR32 Studio approach and used something Eclipse based that would have worked equally well for Windows and Linux! But Microsoft are the ones laughing all the way to the bank. By doing the VS deal with Atmel to create Studio they have got their $80 Windows license fee (or whatever it is) after all!

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Thanks, that's really helpful. I'll investigate further. The set up with avr-gdb and avarice seems to be similar to how Atmel Studio works anyway - the program/debug backend is a separate process which communicates via TCP/IP.

 

Visual Studio Code seems to be available for Linux now. Maybe a Linux version of AS7 is possible... And maybe once they get ASF4 supporting XMEGA properly that will be an option.

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mojo-chan wrote:
seems to be similar to how Atmel Studio works anyway
Indeed it is - what Atmel call "the backend" is effectively the same as avarice.

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mojo-chan wrote:
Visual Studio Code seems to be available for Linux now. Maybe a Linux version of AS7 is possible...

Probably not. As I understand it the Visual Studio Isolated Shell, that Atmel Studio builds on, is implemented with .NET as the platform to run on. (It's probably mostly written in C#, but that is somewhat beyond the point.) Visual Studio, and Atmel Studio, needs a .NET platform installed in order to run.

 

Visual Studio Code is mostly written in TypeScript [1]. TypeScript [2][3] is compiled (actually, a slightly different term, "transpiled" is used) into plain JavaScript. So Visual Studio Code needs a JavaScript interpreter to run, but not necessarily a .NET platform. Any web browser or web browser "component" could theoretically be used.

 

Bottom line: It seems to me that Visual Studio Code and Visual Studio (Isolated Shell) are quite different beasts. Visual Studio Code being cross-platform does not imply that Visual Studio Isolated Shell (and thus Atmel Studio) will be cross platform any time soon. Unless you want to try out Mono.

 

On a strategic level I speculate that Visual Studio Code is

 

- Either something Microsoft allows some of their skilled developers to do because they really wanted to do it (and make it Open Source) or else would possibly leave

- Or a strategic move by Microsoft to be in on coding and debugging on the web client side (and also some server side stuff implemented in JavaScript, like "node.js")

 

...or possibly both of those.

 

I would not be surprised if MS newest browser(s) have intrinsic support for TypeScript, and possibly uses parts of Visual Studio Code for its developer features. I really don't know since I am on my hopefully last Windows version and that is Windows 7... ;-)

 

Add to the puzzle that Microsoft is (one of?) the driving forces behind TypeScript, and you might see a pattern re MS here..

 


 

[1] Get the source code for Visual Studio Code here if you want to double-check me. At almost top right, click "Clone or Download" and then "Download ZIP". Or actually do a Git clone if you like that better... ;-)

[2] TypeScript can be thought of as "a better JavaScript". TypeScript home: http://www.typescriptlang.org/

[3] Re TypeScript on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ty...

As of January 15, 2018, Site fix-up work has begun! Now do your part and report any bugs or deficiencies here

No guarantees, but if we don't report problems they won't get much of  a chance to be fixed! Details/discussions at link given just above.

 

"Some questions have no answers."[C Baird] "There comes a point where the spoon-feeding has to stop and the independent thinking has to start." [C Lawson] "There are always ways to disagree, without being disagreeable."[E Weddington] "Words represent concepts. Use the wrong words, communicate the wrong concept." [J Morin] "Persistence only goes so far if you set yourself up for failure." [Kartman]

Last Edited: Wed. May 10, 2017 - 11:45 AM
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I've tried Mono, it seems quite good.

 

I think they are supporting Linux and Mac because they see that there is a big market beyond just Windows development.

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Well, time for a complete self-plug: https://github.com/xoriath/vscode-atmel-debug. Still a bit early to use (i.e unfriendly but functional...). 

 

Note that it attaches to atbackend, so its limited to that... (I would of course never admit that I ran a demo with this on Linux just the other week...)

:: Morten

 

(yes, I work for Atmel, yes, I do this in my spare time, now stop sending PMs)

Last Edited: Wed. May 10, 2017 - 12:46 PM
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Very nice! Thanks.

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meolsen wrote:
(I would of course never admit that I ran a demo with this on Linux just the other week...
So there's a binary of atbackend.exe built for Linux is there? Or was this possible with wine?

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clawson wrote:
So there's a binary of atbackend.exe built for Linux is there?

Inside Atmel/Microchip there seems to be.

 

The $10K question is: Can/will it be released to the public?

As of January 15, 2018, Site fix-up work has begun! Now do your part and report any bugs or deficiencies here

No guarantees, but if we don't report problems they won't get much of  a chance to be fixed! Details/discussions at link given just above.

 

"Some questions have no answers."[C Baird] "There comes a point where the spoon-feeding has to stop and the independent thinking has to start." [C Lawson] "There are always ways to disagree, without being disagreeable."[E Weddington] "Words represent concepts. Use the wrong words, communicate the wrong concept." [J Morin] "Persistence only goes so far if you set yourself up for failure." [Kartman]

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Atmel Studio is literally the only thing keeping me on Windows at this point.

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The $10K question is: Can/will it be released to the public?

How many beers would that be?

 

I honestly don't know, unfortunately... 

:: Morten

 

(yes, I work for Atmel, yes, I do this in my spare time, now stop sending PMs)

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Meolsen, so you think that Atmel/Microchip is interesting in porting Atmel Studio to Linux? I mean, is it a goal or a project or is it going to be Windows only for the foreseeable future?

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Atmel Studio (based on Visual Studio) is locked to whatever Visual Studio supports. So no forseeable future :) 

:: Morten

 

(yes, I work for Atmel, yes, I do this in my spare time, now stop sending PMs)

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meolsen wrote:
How many beers would that be?
Really it's how many kegs would that be wink

for that's a significant effort.

 

Have you considered a DLL and shared object approach?

Reasons :

  • Texas Instruments MSP Debug Stack
  • macOS installations may be trending up

Likely there would be a blob for the proprietary portion so wouldn't be distributed with an OS.

An assumption is this would ease third parties adding AVR debugging.

 


TI.com

MSPDS MSP Debug Stack

http://www.ti.com/tool/mspds

Weighted OS usage, Windows, macOS, other

via

InfoWorld

Windows 10 usage inches up—but gap with Android widens

by

May 1, 2017

http://www.infoworld.com/article/3193469/microsoft-windows/windows-10-usage-inches-up-but-gap-with-android-is-widening.html

 

"Dare to be naïve." - Buckminster Fuller

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mojo-chan wrote:
Meolsen, so you think that Atmel/Microchip is interesting in porting Atmel Studio to Linux? I mean, is it a goal or a project or is it going to be Windows only for the foreseeable future?
atbackend is just another version of avarice (effectively) but differs in several important ways:

 

1) it's maintained by Atmel, the same people who make the debuggers

2) because of that it will support (I hope) all "up to date" Atmel debugggers

3) avarice's interface to the debuggers has traditionally been based on some amount of reverse engineering - it may have missed things or simply be wong

4) equally it knows all the protocols (up to date): JTAG, dW, PDI, TPI, anything else they think up in the next 5 minutes, etc.

5) I guess the tool has knowledge of the devices (certainly for "programming" it presumably needs to know SPM pages sizes etc). Being Atmel it will know all the latest ones.

 

So it's not really the full Studio that Linux requires but a properly maintained avarice and a Linux build of atbackend would appear to be that very thing.

 

It would make IDEs (some actually "better" than Visual Studio!) viable for all AVR work. Assuming it's broken out in Windows too (maybe this is already possible?) then it could be used with Windows builds of IDEs like Code::Blocks and Eclipse too. So it's not just of benefit to Linux users.

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Really it's how many kegs would that be 

Not in Norway... 

 

Have you considered a DLL and shared object approach?

Yes, we have, but ... well... The interface to atbackend is surprisingly open. The one used between Atmel Studio, atprogram and atbackend is TCF (from the Eclipse foundation). If you run atbackend /h you'll also see that it does TCF over websocket (which I use in the Code plugin), and GDB RSP (or MI, I tend to mix them up). Note that the GDB protocol is completely experimental and undocumented, and relies on some custom target commands to do device, tool ++ configurations. 

 

So, for now the TCF layer has served pretty well and as you can see in the extension code, it's not difficult to drive... 

 

 I guess the tool has knowledge of the devices

Nope... Or, indirectly. atbackend queries the system for installed DFPs using the atpackmanager (in the atpackmanager folder in the Studio installation). The DFPs contains the needed information about devices.

 

Assuming it's broken out in Windows too

As I said, I would never admit to it. Currently, there's too many plans in the air for me to say if it ever will etc. (But guess what I push for... smiley)

:: Morten

 

(yes, I work for Atmel, yes, I do this in my spare time, now stop sending PMs)

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meolsen wrote:
How many beers would that be?

Easily so many that you would have a 102% concentration of alcohol in your blood. Honestly. If it's just about the beers I will start a crowdfunding project tomorrow which will keep you drunk until youre six feet under ;-) .

 

If there's one thing that will drive me away from AVRs it is when my Windows7 machine can not be a base for my AVR hobby anymore. Be that because the machine gives up, or because Atmel Studio eventually requires a newer VSIS and/or .NET platform that requires Windows > 7. But I have (99.9% ;-) )resolved that I will not run another Windows on another private PC. I can happily do most AVR work from the command line, or fix stuff in some IDE to make the hobby a wee bit more pleasant. What I have a hard time living without is on-chip debugging. I have, over the years, acquired 10 or so Atmel debuggers of multiple sorts and have become reliant upon them. That, and only that, keeps me on Windows. Nothing else. Just Atmel Studio, and just for debugging. Nothing else.

 

I could do a stunt here that would get me expelled faster than the last guy, but I like the place and the people so I'll refrain. ;-) I am just sooo sad that someone made that decision back then when AVR Studio 5 was to be done. And then it was Eric Weddington when Studio 6 was about to be born going "There's some really wonderful news about the upcoming 6.0 guys!" and we asked "Cross platform?" and he answered (as if he was topping our hopes with something even better): "Nooo, cross target!". That situation should be given as the definition of the word "disappointment" in Websters or Oxfords.

 

I am still  baffled that someone thought this Visual Studio thing was a wise decision.

 

Don't get me wrong. I have nothing against Visual Studio. I think it's a fine IDE. I have worked with it, and its predecessor (Programmers Workbench) since about 1990. What I don't like is that in order to do AVR on-chip debugging, using the only reasonably priced and reliable tools there are (i.e. those from Atmel themselves) I am forced to use Windows as an operating system. And this is for all the reasons you see again and again, worse with every new Windows version. Automatic updates of things you don't want updated. Silently turning on tracking etc wiht a new "security update" when you've explicitly turned it off earlier. Getting a UI that is targeted for a completely different use than software development and "classical PC activities" (browse the web, handle email, word processing and spreading sheets).

 

(Notice how companies get a "free out of jail" ticket regarding this. They would go through the roof if MS put them through the same sh*t that they put upon privateers. So as a professional I get straight-forward Windows machines from my employers, but as a privateer I must run the variant where Microsoft more or less gets to do what they want in a cloaked way. I recent being treated that way. And that is putting it very mildly, but again I'd like not to be banned.. ;-) )

 

Atmel Studio, and only Atmel Studio (again a very fine IDE!), is forcing me to have this monster that is called Windows as my operating system. Only Atmel Studio. For driving Atmels debuggers.

 

Please release something that can be integrated with GDB and your debuggers and e.g. Eclipse with a reasonably simple procedure! Put all the Caveat Emptors on it "Use at own risk. No support. Just because we are nice guys." Etc.) But please...

 

Aside: Eventually that will of-course lead to enough people, serious privateers/hobbyists but more importantly professionals, to crave a full cross-platform environment, but that's another story, and a devious plan that actually more or less forms itself. Remember this, and then call me the "Lawrence Krauss of AVR IDEs". I'll write the book "A Cross-platform AVR IDE out of nothing".. [Joke good only for the ones with an interest in popular physics.]

 

Addendum: It just struck me. Again.. Atmel got at least a very good base for the AVR-GCC compiler for free, in large thanks to people with their roots in open source development and the GNU/Linux community. AVR-GCC in turn is one of the things that paved the way for the Arduino movement, something that must have a multi-million marketing value for Atmel but cost them more or less nothing. It would be quite honorable to Atmel/Microchip if they "paid the debt" by releasing a crucial piece of cross-platform software to the AVR community out there..

As of January 15, 2018, Site fix-up work has begun! Now do your part and report any bugs or deficiencies here

No guarantees, but if we don't report problems they won't get much of  a chance to be fixed! Details/discussions at link given just above.

 

"Some questions have no answers."[C Baird] "There comes a point where the spoon-feeding has to stop and the independent thinking has to start." [C Lawson] "There are always ways to disagree, without being disagreeable."[E Weddington] "Words represent concepts. Use the wrong words, communicate the wrong concept." [J Morin] "Persistence only goes so far if you set yourself up for failure." [Kartman]

Last Edited: Wed. May 10, 2017 - 03:42 PM
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I don't expect much free software support now that Microchip has taken over. They will sell you a copy of GCC and try their best to hide the source so you don't just download and build it yourself.

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mojo-chan wrote:
and try their best to hide the source
Then thank goodness it is GPL and they cannot do that then!

 

Anything they add will be "derived work" and must also be published

Last Edited: Wed. May 10, 2017 - 04:18 PM
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"Lawrence Krauss of AVR IDEs". I'll write the book "A Cross-platform AVR IDE out of nothing"

He'll be speaking in Toronto this summer...

"Experience is what enables you to recognise a mistake the second time you make it."

"Good judgement comes from experience.  Experience comes from bad judgement."

"Wisdom is always wont to arrive late, and to be a little approximate on first possession."

"When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not unicorns."

"Fast.  Cheap.  Good.  Pick two."

"We see a lot of arses on handlebars around here." - [J Ekdahl]

 

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OT: I'm not sure he's the best physicist. And I'm not sure he's the best speaker or writer. But it seems to me that if you want the product of those two, he sure is among the tops. Will you be going, Joey?

 

(And BTW didn't he "nick" the idea of "something out of nothing"? Hawkings radiation, huh?)

 

As of January 15, 2018, Site fix-up work has begun! Now do your part and report any bugs or deficiencies here

No guarantees, but if we don't report problems they won't get much of  a chance to be fixed! Details/discussions at link given just above.

 

"Some questions have no answers."[C Baird] "There comes a point where the spoon-feeding has to stop and the independent thinking has to start." [C Lawson] "There are always ways to disagree, without being disagreeable."[E Weddington] "Words represent concepts. Use the wrong words, communicate the wrong concept." [J Morin] "Persistence only goes so far if you set yourself up for failure." [Kartman]

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meolsen wrote:
The one used between Atmel Studio, atprogram and atbackend is TCF (from the Eclipse foundation). If you run atbackend /h you'll also see that it does TCF over websocket (which I use in the Code plugin), and GDB RSP (or MI, I tend to mix them up).
Thanks for I was not aware of that until your posts today.

A work-around is to run atprogram and atbackend on an inexpensive Windows 10 SBC.

Better is the headless and zero price Windows 10 (Windows 10 IoT Core) though atprogram and atbackend would have an additional port to Universal Windows Platform (UWP)

wrt to a competitor, Texas Instruments MSP430 is in the multi-OS PlatformIO Unified Debugger in addition to ARM Cortex-M.

 

P.S.

meolsen wrote:
Not in Norway...
I now recall the posts on why.

Another why :

YouTube

Keg tapping goes horribly wrong.

by FlowBull

Apr 23, 2017

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlF4uLPQX7w

1m9s

 


UP Community

Up Community

https://up-community.org/

LattePanda

A Windows 10 SBC with integrated Arduino

http://www.lattepanda.com/

Microsoft

Microsoft

Windows 10 IoT Core

Official Site - Windows IoT

https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/iot

Microsoft

Microsoft

Intro to the Universal Windows Platform

2017-2-8

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/get-started/universal-application-platform-guide

PlatformIO 3.4.0b2 documentation

PIO Unified Debugger

http://docs.platformio.org/en/latest/plus/debugging.html

 

"Dare to be naïve." - Buckminster Fuller

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JohanEkdahl wrote:
If there's one thing that will drive me away from AVRs it is when my Windows7 machine can not be a base for my AVR hobby anymore. Be that because the machine gives up, or because Atmel Studio eventually requires a newer VSIS and/or .NET platform that requires Windows > 7.
It's amazing that there's impressive new PC being created that can still run Windows 7.

Microsoft did push onto the manufacturers the burden of Windows 7 driver maintenance for new hardware; on that, some manufacturers have stepped up to the plate likely due to the demand.

But, some PC are Windows 10 only.

Some do like Windows 8.1, especially after a change of shells, and Windows 8.1 has several significant advantages over Windows 7.

Moving to Windows 8.1 would kick the can a few years further down the road.

JohanEkdahl wrote:
Automatic updates of things you don't want updated.
That problem can be solved.

The Windows 10 driver update issue has a reasonable solution (Group Policy Editor) in Windows 10 Anniversary Update (1607) with a solution in Windows 10 Creators Update (1703)

Moving a Windows 10 Pro from Current Branch (CB) to Current Branch for Business (CBB) will reduce the update frequency.

A growing concern is the quality of Windows updates; best wait a month or three before applying an update.

JohanEkdahl wrote:
Silently turning on tracking etc wiht a new "security update" when you've explicitly turned it off earlier.
The Microsoft Customer Experience Improvement Program (CEIP) can be disabled, by specific actions, in Windows 7 and Windows 8.1; that's not an option in any Windows 10.

JohanEkdahl wrote:
Getting a UI that is targeted for a completely different use than software development and "classical PC activities" (browse the web, handle email, word processing and spreading sheets).
Replace the shell, web browser, and maybe file explorer?

There are several competitors to Microsoft Office 365.

JohanEkdahl wrote:
(Notice how companies get a "free out of jail" ticket regarding this. They would go through the roof if MS put them through the same sh*t that they put upon privateers. So as a professional I get straight-forward Windows machines from my employers, but as a privateer I must run the variant where Microsoft more or less gets to do what they want in a cloaked way.
Even large operators are cringing at Windows 10 due to the 18 month forced upgrade cycle other than the 10 year cycle for Windows 10 Enterprise Long-Term Servicing Branch (LTSB) (but, when a PC dies the LTSB on it must be upgraded)

Windows 10 Enterprise can be easily purchased, rented, or leased.

Windows 10 Enterprise LTSB cannot be easily purchased (volume license, 5 units of any software in the bundle); for LTSB it's easier to run the evaluation and put up with the watermark, nag, and the 9 months (IIRC) between re-installs (an alternative is Windows to Go on USB)

Telemetry can be minimized in Windows 10 Enterprise and almost zero-ed in Windows 10 Enterprise LTSB.

A mid-size operator may find there's value in a MSDN or Visual Studio subscription (all Windows versions are available for install)

Small operators are more likely to deal with Windows 10 Pro ideally on CBB.

 


Microsoft

MSDN

Visual Studio Isolated Shell

https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb685691.aspx

http://www8.hp.com/h20195/v2/GetDocument.aspx?docname=c05262508 

(page 15)

Operating Systems

...

Windows 7 Professional 64 (available through downgrade rights from Windows 10 Pro 64)

...

via

HP® Official Store

HP Z2 Mini Workstation

http://store.hp.com/us/en/mdp/business-solutions/hp-z2-mini-workstation--1

InfoWorld

Get ready for Patch Tuesday: Block Windows Update and ignore KB 3008923

by

May 8, 2017

http://www.infoworld.com/article/3195252/patch-management/get-ready-for-patch-tuesday-block-windows-update-and-ignore-kb-3008923.html

A long-obsolete December 2014-era IE update is again on offer in an apparent breakdown of the supersedence chain

...

In Windows 7 click Start > Control Panel. In Win 8.1, press Win-X and choose Control Panel. Click System and Security. Under Windows Update, click the link marked "Turn automatic updating on or off." Make sure Windows Update is set to "Never check for updates (not recommended)."

In Windows 10 1507 (which gets its last patches this month), 1511, and 1607, the situation's a bit more complex, but I have full details in the InfoWorld article ...

 

If you're already using Win10 Pro Creators Update, version 1703, delaying cumulative updates is easier. In Win10 1703 Pro, click Start > Settings > Windows Update. Click the link for Advanced options. In the Advanced options pane (see the screenshot below), run the "quality updates" slider up to 30, which is the maximum.

...

With Win10 version 1703 Home, you're stuck in the same rut as the earlier versions of Win10: Set your internet connection to Metered if it's Wi-Fi. Otherwise, follow the steps outlined in the article to throttle the update service. And remember that "Windows 10 Home" is synonymous with "Windows 10 unpaid beta tester."

...

 

Lock down Windows Update. The machine you save may be your own.

Windows

Announcing Windows 10 Insider Preview Build 15002 for PC

by / Software Engineer, Windows and Devices Group

January 9, 2017

https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2017/01/09/announcing-windows-10-insider-preview-build-15002-pc/#QUpHj9UWbple2KHj.97 

...

 

Improving your update experience

...

We’ve added an option that will now allow you to decide whether or not to include driver updates when you update Windows. This capability will be available on Professional, Education, and Enterprise editions of Windows.

...

Microsoft Customer Experience Improvement Program

https://www.microsoft.com/products/ceip/en-US/default.mspx

Microsoft

Microsoft

TechNet Evaluation Center

Windows 10 Enterprise

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/evalcenter/evaluate-windows-10-enterprise

 

Edit : quality

 

"Dare to be naïve." - Buckminster Fuller

Last Edited: Wed. May 10, 2017 - 07:33 PM
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mojo-chan wrote:
I don't expect much free software support now that Microchip has taken over.
fyi, about 1USD per day for an XC8, XC16, or XC32 subscription; the dongle form might be a concern.

Thank you!!!!!  Atmel nee Microchip for y'alls take on AVR GCC.

One less exclamation mark for Atmel Studio wink

There's some Microchip on GitHub (OpenOCD, SAMA5, SAM V, SAM-BA)

mojo-chan wrote:
They will sell you a copy of GCC and try their best to hide the source so you don't just download and build it yourself.
I've dropped the ball for I've lost the links to my post (legacy AVR Freaks) on C30 (C toolchain for PIC24 and dsPIC) and to that C30 itself.

There's GCC for PIC32.

The debugger interface is what's missing though there's some MIPS in OpenOCD; might consider SEGGER for PIC32.

 


http://new.microchipdirect.com/ProductSearch.aspx?keywords=SW006021-SUB (XC8)

http://new.microchipdirect.com/ProductSearch.aspx?keywords=SW006022-SUB (XC16)

http://new.microchipdirect.com/ProductSearch.aspx?keywords=SW006023-SUB (XC32)

http://new.microchipdirect.com/ProductSearch.aspx?keywords=SW006022-DGL,SW006023-DGL,SW006021-DGL&utm_campaign=mplabxcdongle

http://platformio.org/platforms/microchippic32

https://www.segger.com/pr-jlink-pic32.html

https://www.segger.com/jlink_supported_devices.html

https://github.com/MicrochipTech

https://github.com/atmelcorp

 

Edit : GitHub

 

"Dare to be naïve." - Buckminster Fuller

Last Edited: Wed. May 10, 2017 - 07:42 PM
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gchapman wrote:
It's amazing that there's impressive new PC being created that can still run Windows 7.

I dunno the age of the laptop I'm typing on now, but perhaps 5 y.o.? I got it used perhaps 4 years ago, and it came with a Windows 7 installer on the HDD. Dell Latitude E6330, which rather quickly got a SSD.

 

Serves me excellently.

 

Re all those things that can be fixed in Windows, I just don't want to be bothered with that. And I don't trust MS not to sneak in another devious scheme which I need to reveal, learn about and fix. And you have to be selective because you really want the actual security updates and bugfixes.

 

My plan is to make my next PC one that has Debian, Ubuntu or Mint as it's main OS. If I get a Windoze with it then fine. I'll convert it into a virtual machine and run that in VirtualBox if I really need to.

 

Yes, I know about the alternatives to other MS "staple software". I run Libre Office, for example. That is why the only thing that forces me to have Windows as an OS is Atmel Studio. (Last time I checked on Mono it's reputed quality was "dubious".)

 

I'll stop ranting now...

 

gchapman wrote:
mojo-chan wrote: I don't expect much free software support now that Microchip has taken over.

 

fyi, about 1USD per day for an XC8, XC16, or XC32 subscription

$365 per year might be a small thing for a business, but for all the hobbyists out there it would be highly preventive.

 

I'll put the  jokes about Beer For Morten aside, but if Microchip start to play tricks with dodging the GPL license on GCC then we need to start a crowdfunding project to pay for the lawyers. I'd be willing to toss in. Seriously.

As of January 15, 2018, Site fix-up work has begun! Now do your part and report any bugs or deficiencies here

No guarantees, but if we don't report problems they won't get much of  a chance to be fixed! Details/discussions at link given just above.

 

"Some questions have no answers."[C Baird] "There comes a point where the spoon-feeding has to stop and the independent thinking has to start." [C Lawson] "There are always ways to disagree, without being disagreeable."[E Weddington] "Words represent concepts. Use the wrong words, communicate the wrong concept." [J Morin] "Persistence only goes so far if you set yourself up for failure." [Kartman]

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I switched over to Ubuntu after my I stupidly let Windows upgrade my machine first to 8.1 then to 10. Win10 is stunning in its f*ck you attitude. I'd be working and a screen would pop up saying it was going to update in reboot in 14 minutes and I had no choice in the matter. Also, it was running a bunch of MS spyware in the background, that even though I turned them off, they kept coming back on.

 

But I'm lucky to belong to a maker space (Knox Makers) with a hack rack that somebody dropped off a stack of 'dead' laptops. From that stack I managed to piece together a Core i5 laptop with SSD that uses Ubuntu and is now my main system.

 

After getting a query about writing something for Atmel Studio, I resurrected a laptop that had been running Windows 7 before it died and I put Win10 on it exclusively to run Atmel Studio. There is no way I'd pay money for a machine to run Win10. Frankly, I don't even want to consider using Win10 and Atmel Studion in VirtualBox on my Ubuntu machine for the same reason I'm not going to pick up a hooker. Lord only knows what sort of STD I might get and I feel the same about Win10. [BTW I've been away for a while so if that last statement might get me banned, please tell me quick enough so I can delete it.]

 

So the point being, I'm all in for a workable Linux based work-flow that would be reasonably close to Atmel Studio in ease of use - if such a thing can be found. Cliff seems to think the only thing lacking is support for a simulator, but I rarely use those nowadays.

 

I guess I'm wondering if using Eclipse and the avr-gcc toolchain is really as time and brain efficient as keeping the Win10 machine and using Atmel Studio?

 

Last Edited: Wed. May 10, 2017 - 09:23 PM
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JohanEkdahl wrote:
... but if Microchip start to play tricks with dodging the GPL license on GCC then we need to start a crowdfunding project to pay for the lawyers. I'd be willing to toss in. Seriously.
... and seriously not for me (attorneys and such)

Am in for funding construction to offset destruction ... or for beer wink

May one not shoot the goose.

“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.”

R. Buckminster Fuller

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/13119-you-never-change-things-by-fighting-the-existing-reality-to

 


https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/downloads/virtual-machines

 

"Dare to be naïve." - Buckminster Fuller

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I for one have found that studio 4.19 does most of what I need to do.  As long as I can keep the XP machines running.   I did get 4.19 to work under windows 8.  For some reason I could never upgrade the win 8 to win 10.

 

Interesting enough to run some old compiled visual basic code on the win 8 machine I learned about DOSBOX.  This is a software emulator for running old DOS games. (It might even run Windows 3.1)  DOSBOX runs on the *nix oses too like BSD an Linux.  With the emulation of the serial port DOSBOX runs the old compiled basic codes on my mac, better than XP did.

This leaves Studio as the only Windows app that I must have.  And that only for the debugger.  Since a lot of my code is legacy  I rarely have to use the debugger.

Arduino also changed a bit on how I code, rather than program these days.   Last month I took some C code, wrapped it into an Arduino sketch and solved a problem that had been bothering me for years.

 

In other areas I have moved on to ARM,  STM32 and raspberry pi.  This has it's own issues.  I spend a lot of my time writing scripts to make eclipse when I use it palatable.  With the pi I am probably going to need to hang up the tab key and learn more python.

 

Most of the coding I do is in postscript anyway. Postscript runs on the pi ...

 

Atmel/Microchip runs a great risk of being left by the wayside. At least for new and innovative systems.

 

 

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OT: I'm not sure he's the best physicist. And I'm not sure he's the best speaker or writer. But it seems to me that if you want the product of those two, he sure is among the tops. Will you be going, Joey?

I was considering it, but it is likely that I will be out of town that day for family matters.  If I'm unable to make it out of town, it is likely the reason will be unavoidable work.  So the chances are slim that I'll be able to attend.

"Experience is what enables you to recognise a mistake the second time you make it."

"Good judgement comes from experience.  Experience comes from bad judgement."

"Wisdom is always wont to arrive late, and to be a little approximate on first possession."

"When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not unicorns."

"Fast.  Cheap.  Good.  Pick two."

"We see a lot of arses on handlebars around here." - [J Ekdahl]

 

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hmm I vaguely remember being chastised by someone for not liking Win8 and refusing to get the free update for my new laptop. devil

 

And the battle continued with Win10 as M$ sneakily managed to "update" another laptop to win 10 and took me ages to revert back to win7, fortunately M$ seems to have given up on forcing people to their new O/S. Yep I would also be interested getting rid of windows altogether but I'm too old and lazy to do so.

 

Once win7 is no longer supported I'll just unplug my computer from the internet and continue to use whatever I can, I can use Android for banking and other stuff like mail and web browsing.

John Samperi

Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.

www.ampertronics.com.au

* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly

Last Edited: Thu. May 11, 2017 - 02:56 AM
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js wrote:

Once win7 is no longer supported I'll just unplug my computer from the internet and continue to use whatever I can, I can use Android for banking and other stuff like mail and web browsing.

 

That is what I do with my XP machines.   They run offline and I sneaker net to them.

 

There really is not any reason to use M$ products for any sort of browsing mail, or banking.   They missed the boat on that as soon as the anti-virus industry was created.

 

Eventually someone will write an emulator system, so that classic games tweaked for XP can be run in a suitable environment.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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clawson wrote:

Then thank goodness it is GPL and they cannot do that then!

 

In theory yes, but in practice there are some older versions built for Linux and nothing for Windows. They have managed to make it difficult to build something that works with MPLAB for free, so that you have to pay just to enable -Os.

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A bit late to the party, but...

clawson wrote:

The thing I miss more than anything is actually the simluator. There is a software simulator for Linux (or Windows for that matter) called SimulAVR that can be run alongside and "connected to" by avr-gdb in the same way it connects to avraice and a real ICE but it's very limited compared to the one in AS7.

 

We do have this: https://github.com/avrsimulator/...

This is a cross-platform gdbproxy able to run the Atmel Studio simulator models. Basically you get the same simulator capabilities in the wrapping of GDB. Actually, you get more, because GDB can support Python scripts which gives you much better scripting capabilities for doing stimuli and stuff. The simulator models, the .so files, can be found in the part packs on http://packs.download.atmel.com/, parallel to the .dll's.

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I've dropped the ball for I've lost the links to my post (legacy AVR Freaks) on C30 (C toolchain for PIC24 and dsPIC) and to that C30 itself.

Microchip XC16 compiler

https://wiki.kewl.org/dokuwiki/tools:xc16

This is a C compiler for the dsPIC and PIC24 24-bit address word PICMicros.

...

 

Free edition

...

The free edition has no limitations and does not require a license for optimisations.

...

 

tools/xc16.txt · Last modified: 2017/01/18 19:05 by darron


https://www.avrfreaks.net/forum/future-xmega#comment-1785081 

 

"Dare to be naïve." - Buckminster Fuller

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It doesn't build with cygwin... Any ideas how to build a Windows version?

 

I thought that they were supposed to release a buildable version of the code according to the GPL. Do they only cross-compile from Linux or something?

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mojo-chan wrote:
It doesn't build with cygwin... Any ideas how to build a Windows version?
MinGW?

Sysprogs

Sysprogs

Building your own GNU toolchains

http://gnutoolchains.com/building/

 

"Dare to be naïve." - Buckminster Fuller

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+1 @gchapman:
IMO cygwin is relative crap. I would opt for MinGW at all times possible.

As of January 15, 2018, Site fix-up work has begun! Now do your part and report any bugs or deficiencies here

No guarantees, but if we don't report problems they won't get much of  a chance to be fixed! Details/discussions at link given just above.

 

"Some questions have no answers."[C Baird] "There comes a point where the spoon-feeding has to stop and the independent thinking has to start." [C Lawson] "There are always ways to disagree, without being disagreeable."[E Weddington] "Words represent concepts. Use the wrong words, communicate the wrong concept." [J Morin] "Persistence only goes so far if you set yourself up for failure." [Kartman]