How to Programm tiny once bolded on board

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#1
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Hello to all!

 

I am tired of putting a clamp on a tiny when programming, so I am wondering how are you programming the tiny once soldered on board?

 

Best.

Bravo!!!

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Most AVR designs run the ISP pins out to some kind of easily accessible header. If not possible then you can at least bring them to a group of thru-hole vias then attach to that using "pogo pins"

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mu234 wrote:

Hello to all!

 

I am tired of putting a clamp on a tiny when programming, so I am wondering how are you programming the tiny once soldered on board?

 

Best.

 

which series ?

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x5 family!

 

Best.

Bravo!!!

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Thanks! Pogo pins seems promising, however, then I will have to hold down them ? Is there a way to attach them?

 

Best.

Bravo!!!

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They are spring loaded and are usually just held in contact with the vias for the few seconds that the programming takes. I imagine if there were a lot of boards to be done this could be done in a "jig" rather than just manually.

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You may find this tutorial from sparkfun about pogo pins interesting:  https://www.sparkfun.com/tutoria...

 

Jim

 

Click Link: Get Free Stock: Retire early! PM for strategy

share.robinhood.com/jamesc3274

 

 

 

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http://www.tag-connect.com/

 

TC2030 or whatever is suitable for you, the cable costs a little bit. however when designing your board you have to decide which footprint you are going to use depends on your target.

 

you mentioned "attaching and holding down", you can add a through hole via.

 

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cheers! 2030 MCP looks very promising, however, has any of you found a thiner version, maybe in one row all the pins and legs (eg. vertical layout of all pins and legs)? 

 

O

o

o

o

o

o

o

O

 

or 

 

O o o o o o o O

 

this

rather than 

this

 

O O

ooo

ooo

O O

 

Best.

 

http://www.tag-connect.com/Mater...

 

 

Bravo!!!

Last Edited: Thu. Jan 24, 2019 - 02:12 PM
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mu234 wrote:

cheers! 2030 MCP looks very promising, however, has any of you found a thiner version, maybe in one row all the pins and legs (eg. vertical layout of all pins and legs)? 

 

O

o

o

o

o

o

o

O

 

or 

 

O o o o o o o O

 

this

rather than 

this

 

O O

ooo

ooo

O O

 

Best.

 

http://www.tag-connect.com/Mater...

 

 

 

Not really, but maybe you can design one and then earn some $$

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Moe123 wrote:
O o o o o o o O

Why not just use a 0.1, or 0.050 header, similar to the above.

I just use the header holes on my pcb's, then either stick a header attached to the cable of the programmer into program or use pogo pins in a clamp fixture for production.

In some units, we used SMD pads with pogo pin fixture on our micro size boards (less then 1" square) pcb's.

Of course, the other alternative is use per-programmed micros, then there is no need for programming pads, (if your willing to trash them if later there is an update needed)

 

Jim

 

Click Link: Get Free Stock: Retire early! PM for strategy

share.robinhood.com/jamesc3274

 

 

 

Last Edited: Thu. Jan 24, 2019 - 02:47 PM
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ki0bk wrote:

Moe123 wrote:

O o o o o o o O

 

Why not just use a 0.1, or 0.050 header, similar to the above.

I just use the header holes on my pcb's, then either stick a header attached to the cable of the programmer into program or use pogo pins in a clamp fixture for production.

In some units, we used SMD pads with pogo pin fixture on our micro size boards (less then 1" square) pcb's.

Jim

 

 

Jim, you quoted me wrong, I never mentioned this "O o o o o o o O" thing. The OP himself wrote, now to the point:

 

We dont know if the OP wants to go to serial production thats why i think its irrelevant to mention the pogo pins IMO, However, for cheap solutions i mentioned Tag-connect solutions as a way of cost effective yet an easy interface between tiny x 5 "as they already implemented it" and the OP's PCB/prototype or whatever.

 

Regards,

Moe

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ki0bk wrote:
Of course, the other alternative is use per-programmed micros, then there is no need for programming pads, (if your willing to trash them if later there is an update needed)
tinyX5 can have a bootloader if there's enough pins or can multi-impedance.

GitHub - micronucleus/micronucleus: ATTiny usb bootloader with a strong emphasis on bootloader compactness.

 

tinyAVR 0-series may be a follow-on :

ATTINY807 - AVR Microcontrollers - Microcontrollers and Processors - Microcontrollers and Processors

AN2634 - Bootloader for tinyAVR 0- and 1-series, and megaAVR 0-series

 

"Dare to be naïve." - Buckminster Fuller

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gchapman wrote:
tinyX5 can have a bootloader if there's enough pins or can multi-impedance.

Also:
https://www.google.com/search?q=picoboot

"Experience is what enables you to recognise a mistake the second time you make it."

"Good judgement comes from experience.  Experience comes from bad judgement."

"Wisdom is always wont to arrive late, and to be a little approximate on first possession."

"When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not unicorns."

"Fast.  Cheap.  Good.  Pick two."

"We see a lot of arses on handlebars around here." - [J Ekdahl]

 

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Hi, I'll try to reply, there is not production in mind, of course for production I guess the best way is to have a programmed chip, but this is another story.

 

I require this programming only for prototyping :) and I do not have enough space, hence I was using the clamp before...

 

Best.

Bravo!!!

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Would you be so kind and please say more about the boot-loader thing you are talking about? Sorry, I am new to this :)

 

 

Best.

Bravo!!!

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To use a bootloader you will need one time ISP access to the chip. You then program some special software into it (that goes to the top of the flash instead the usual location at the bottom). You also change the fuses during the same session to say that "from now on, when powered on, run that software up at the top". What that software actually does is "listens" on some communication channel (I2C, UART, SPI, LIN, CAN, Ethernet, Wifi, etc etc) for contact from some other PC program. Usually it hears nothing so seconds (or less) after power on it just goes on and runs the "application" code that has already been programmed in at the usual low location. However, if it sees contact from the PC software it stops where it is and the AVR+PC have a "dialog" during which the PC software feeds it chunks of flash code. It then uses a special AVR opcode called SPM (Self Program Memory) to write what it receives into the lower application section of the AVR (erasing what was there previously as it goes). When complete a whole new application software is in the AVR which it then goes on to run (and does so on all the following power ons) until the next time it gets contacted by the PC software. In this way, you can reprogram the application whenever you like but this still needs access to SOME pins in the device that provide the I2C/SPI/UART/whatever interface you choose to use for communication.

 

EDIT: looking at the tiny25/45/85 datasheet it reminds me that like most Tiny it does not offer much in the way of a sensible communication peripheral. All it has is "USI" but that can be "faked" into acting as I2C or SPI or UART but it takes a bit more work than in a real AVR. All the USI interfaces will use the same pins: 5, 6 and 7

Last Edited: Fri. Jan 25, 2019 - 09:16 AM
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mu234 wrote:
I require this programming only for prototyping :) and I do not have enough space

For prototyping, you need to make enough space for ISP / debug connections!  Why are you so space limited?

After all, the main benefit of flash based micros, is the ease of "in circuit (re)programming!

 

Jim

 

Click Link: Get Free Stock: Retire early! PM for strategy

share.robinhood.com/jamesc3274

 

 

 

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Thank you for your excellent reply to mu234's question.

clawson wrote:
EDIT: looking at the tiny25/45/85 datasheet it reminds me that like most Tiny it does not offer much in the way of a sensible communication peripheral.
... and more pins is why the mention of tiny807 as a follow on to tiny85.

 

edit: typo

 

"Dare to be naïve." - Buckminster Fuller

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I am tired of putting a clamp on a tiny when programming

Why? You say you have no room for anything else! How much room do you have?

 

perhaps this castellated connector...requires "no" board space

http://www.tag-connect.com/EdgeConnectIntro

When in the dark remember-the future looks brighter than ever.   I look forward to being able to predict the future!

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if this is a large quantity production run, then why not simply have your AVR vendor pre program then for you?

 

JIm

I would rather attempt something great and fail, than attempt nothing and succeed - Fortune Cookie

 

"The critical shortage here is not stuff, but time." - Johan Ekdahl

 

"If you want a career with a known path - become an undertaker. Dead people don't sue!" - Kartman

"Why is there a "Highway to Hell" and only a "Stairway to Heaven"? A prediction of the expected traffic load?"  - Lee "theusch"

 

Speak sweetly. It makes your words easier to digest when at a later date you have to eat them ;-)  - Source Unknown

Please Read: Code-of-Conduct

Atmel Studio6.2/AS7, DipTrace, Quartus, MPLAB user

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Jim, he's prototyping, apparently on a production size board, which is his first mistake, he should be using a prototyping board that allows easy program loading and debugging!

Jim

 

Click Link: Get Free Stock: Retire early! PM for strategy

share.robinhood.com/jamesc3274

 

 

 

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ki0bk wrote:

Jim, he's prototyping, apparently on a production size board, which is his first mistake, he should be using a prototyping board that allows easy program loading and debugging!

Jim

 

 

Ahhh!  Yes, building it first then making it work is usually not a good idea.

 

JIm

I would rather attempt something great and fail, than attempt nothing and succeed - Fortune Cookie

 

"The critical shortage here is not stuff, but time." - Johan Ekdahl

 

"If you want a career with a known path - become an undertaker. Dead people don't sue!" - Kartman

"Why is there a "Highway to Hell" and only a "Stairway to Heaven"? A prediction of the expected traffic load?"  - Lee "theusch"

 

Speak sweetly. It makes your words easier to digest when at a later date you have to eat them ;-)  - Source Unknown

Please Read: Code-of-Conduct

Atmel Studio6.2/AS7, DipTrace, Quartus, MPLAB user

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Hello guys, sorry for my late reply, but been busy with programming tiny :) indeed, thank you for excellent explanation for the boot loader, btw is there a guide/book/web page where more can be read, sounds promissing... ?

When I say i do not have much space I mean it :) literaly my board is 82mm by 9mm. Anyway, I am going after pogo pins. These seems to be useful, however, I need another thing to hold down the whole nutzen as Germans says, a board that has several boards on it... english word would be welcome? Anyway, I would like to test only, for the moment, several (lets say 20 boards) that are on nutzen, atm I am thinking to program each individually, but have an idea how to program several via multiplexing, but this is another story, will first try individual piece with pogopins, but I would like to use somekind of a plastic holder, hook to hold down the whole notzen to the pogopins, to have it fixed... have you ever saw such a thing?

Best.

Bravo!!!

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You are probably right, I am working on 25€ Arduino dev board :) you wont believe it how much can be done with it, where there is a will anything goes and it serves my work! indeed, I am missing the debuging of avr, hence I am on arduino ;) To be honest I am quite happy about the flexibility of arduino, done some modification due to 3.3v design programming, etc. however, need to grow, what would you recomend to look at? btw atm I am on mac.

Best.

Bravo!!!

Last Edited: Tue. Jan 29, 2019 - 08:36 PM
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Indeed, once I go over 500 radar :) so far I am below 20 ...

Best.

Bravo!!!

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Thanks, looks promissing, but where can be bought? Cannot find a datasheet? Not much info about it?

Best,

Bravo!!!

Last Edited: Tue. Jan 29, 2019 - 08:47 PM
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Definitely, currently I have pads for MISO MOSI, however, this also takes space :) hence I am looking for upright version, see my question up above.

Best.

Bravo!!!

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mu234 wrote:
Definitely, currently I have pads for MISO MOSI, however, this also takes space :)

What is on the bottom of the board?  Space there for 6 pads?

 

Jim

 

Click Link: Get Free Stock: Retire early! PM for strategy

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What about the Edge of the board? Castellated holes?

#1 This forum helps those that help themselves

#2 All grounds are not created equal

#3 How have you proved that your chip is running at xxMHz?

#4 "If you think you need floating point to solve the problem then you don't understand the problem. If you really do need floating point then you have a problem you do not understand." - Heater's ex-boss

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What about the Edge of the board? Castellated holes?

 

yes, I brought that up --those "holes"

 

http://www.tag-connect.com/EdgeConnectIntro

When in the dark remember-the future looks brighter than ever.   I look forward to being able to predict the future!

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which house?

 

I would tool a small nylon block that allign with the house, and on that place pogo-pins that connect to the chippins/pads .

 

 

Remember not to connect anything on the board that will desturb the programming.

And if you can avoid using reset for anything other than reset :) 

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Bottom nothing , so, yes, so far I have the space for that, but no lags included yet :/

Best.

Bravo!!!

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In all this discussion I am trying to understand how using a block with pogo pins to connect for prototype programming is actually any better than:

mu234 wrote:
tired of putting a clamp on a tiny when programming

the clamp already used in #1 ?? If you have a working solution already why not stick with it?

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Why use a clamp at all?

 

You ought to be able to program 8k bytes in just over a quarter of a second (8k bytes of flash x 4 bytes per programming instruction x 8 bits per byte x 1us per bit). Doing and undoing a clamp will be much slower than that.

#1 This forum helps those that help themselves

#2 All grounds are not created equal

#3 How have you proved that your chip is running at xxMHz?

#4 "If you think you need floating point to solve the problem then you don't understand the problem. If you really do need floating point then you have a problem you do not understand." - Heater's ex-boss

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Thats all true, but believe me, it is much easier, at least for :) clamp is OK for one go, but not more :) indeed, it is working solution and I am still using it, but there is a better one with pogo pins at least it looks like that !

 

Best.

Bravo!!!

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I wonder if I'm misunderstanding what is meant by "clamp". I sort of envisaged something like this:

 

Image result for clamp for dip chip

 

It only takes a second or two to clamp on/off a chip when you want to reprogram. If it is like this I'm not really seeing how holding spring loaded pogo pins against pads on the PCB is actually any quicker/easier ?

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True, but I am looking for a solution that I can buy in store, like a clamp. It is ok, but several times used, it starts to fall off and becomes annoying... so pogo pins connector with legs is what I am looking at , but need to find the right size, so far it looks I will go after edge connector...

 

Best.

Bravo!!!

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That is the one, however, I have the one in blue collar as well, I guess this one is from 3M... works as well, however. I guess its a matter of preference :)

 

Best.

Bravo!!!

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This is on my plate atm, looking at it! 

 

Best.

Bravo!!!

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But even for Pogo pins (unless you are very lucky!) you are going to need to relay the PCB to make 6 pads available somewhere. So if you do that why not simply install the usual 2x3 headers that most designs use for ISP?

 

(and if your clamp is working loose then I'd be chasing your supplier - these things should be good for 1,000's of operations)

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I use these and they do not fall off.

 

 

The ones with a collar are not as good and do fall off.

#1 This forum helps those that help themselves

#2 All grounds are not created equal

#3 How have you proved that your chip is running at xxMHz?

#4 "If you think you need floating point to solve the problem then you don't understand the problem. If you really do need floating point then you have a problem you do not understand." - Heater's ex-boss

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Out of curiosity, what is the name, number of this thing, I have one of 3M, but it is different... more like the one above...

Best.

Bravo!!!

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Ok, what the usuall 2x3 header that most designs use for ISP ?

Best.

Bravo!!!

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mu234 wrote:
Ok, what the usuall 2x3 header that most designs use for ISP ?
Yes, that.

 

If you are relaying the board then just look at the Atmel manual:

 

https://www.microchip.com/webdoc...

 

and put down 0.1" pin header in that layout (any decent CAD program that knows about AVR will undoubtedly have this in the library).

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Whatever you prefer: