How to detect water flow that comes into tap of house

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As you know in the big cities and villages water being sent to the houses by municipal supply. that water comes into the tap of our house. We have a very large tank in our municipality, whose water is sent to all houses in the village.

Municipal people can supply water for half an hour at any time There is no fixed time for water supply Which is why we have to see every time whether water is coming in the tap or not. When there is water coming in the tap then we use a water pump to fill the rooftop tank If there is no water coming out of the tap, the pump has to be closed. It is a difficult task to keep watching the tap 24 hours

 

I want a system that detects whether the water is coming from the tap and when the water is coming, the pump motor must start until the tank become full And the motor should stop when the tank is full. I do not understand how to solve my problem through technology

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Why post here? Surely this is a problem that has been solved last century?

 

Float valves/ switches are used to detect if your tank is full. As for detecting if there is water available, then have a small tank with a float switch and valve. If there is water available, it will fill the small tank. The float switch detects if there is water available AND if your main tank is empty, then pump runs. If there is no more water available OR your main tank is full, then the pump stops.

 

Think simple.

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As kartman said, you might need to think simple.

If you live in an area like that getting to complicated hardware might not be simple also. And what happens if things breakdown ( which eventually will)

 

All you might need is a couple of floats connected to switches that do all the work.

start with a schematic drawing of what you need and then think of every possible thing that you think could go wrong and add safety measures for that.

 

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Note that the little tank will prob be quickly pumped dry if the pump is sizable...so it will falsely stop/restart in a chattering manner (that might not be a big concern ,if it is a little bitty DC pump--wouldn't want a large AC pump to keep cycling/chattering.)

 

The issue is knowing whether there can be flow before there is flow.  Maybe a pressure sensor would show that...You can also add a timer (even to the first method)...so if it stops, it will wait 5 minutes before retrying to pump/

When in the dark remember-the future looks brighter than ever.   I look forward to being able to predict the future!

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Kartman wrote:

Why post here? Surely this is a problem that has been solved last century?

 

Float valves/ switches are used to detect if your tank is full. As for detecting if there is water available, then have a small tank with a float switch and valve. If there is water available, it will fill the small tank. The float switch detects if there is water available AND if your main tank is empty, then pump runs. If there is no more water available OR your main tank is full, then the pump stops.

 

Think simple.

It doesn't seem so easy I made a diagram which shows the problem. How to know water flow through the tap

 

Attachment(s): 

Last Edited: Thu. Jul 16, 2020 - 10:13 AM
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rahulk7 wrote:
It doesn't seem so easy

Then perhaps you need to find someone local who knows about these things, and get them to do it for you?

 

If it's a common problem in your location, there must be someone who's already done it ...

 

But what Kartman is suggesting is very simple:

 

  1. Have the "municipality" supply fill a small tank at (or near) ground level.
  2. Have a float switch in that tank, which activates the pump when there's water in the small tank.

 

Simples!

 

Is there sufficient head/pressure in the "municipality" supply to get any flow at all into your own roof tank?

If there is, then get a flow switch which will detect that flow, and activate the pump.

 

Google "flow switch"

 

This is common in this country for pumped - "power" - showers: the domestic supply gives only a small flow, so a flow switch detects this and activates the pump.

 

https://showerpowerbooster.co.uk/information/showerpowerbooster-flow-switch/

 

 

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avrcandies wrote:
Note that the little tank will prob be quickly pumped dry if the pump is sizable...so it will falsely stop/restart in a chattering manner

Indeed.

 

So may want to have two float switches:

  1. near the top of the tank - turns the pump on;
  2. near the bottom of the tank - turns the pump off.

 

EDIT

 

and you use a relay to keep the pump running when the "top" switch opens until the "bottom" switch opens ...

 

No electronics required!

 

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Last Edited: Thu. Jul 16, 2020 - 10:49 AM
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awneil wrote:

rahulk7 wrote:
It doesn't seem so easy

Then perhaps you need to find someone local who knows about these things, and get them to do it for you?

 

If it's a common problem in your location, there must be someone who's already done it ...

 

But what Kartman is suggesting is very simple:

 

  1. Have the "municipality" supply fill a small tank at (or near) ground level.
  2. Have a float switch in that tank, which activates the pump when there's water in the small tank.

 

Simples!

 

Is there sufficient head/pressure in the "municipality" supply to get any flow at all into your own roof tank?

If there is, then get a flow switch which will detect that flow, and activate the pump.

 There is no much force in municipal supply to fill the roof tank directly The water of this supply comes only to the household tap that why we use home water pump to fill roof tank 

 

We don't make the small tank in the ground so whenever water flow is detected people fill roof tank by the home water pump. if I build a small tank in my house, I will not get enough water because other peoples will suck water by the pump motor  

 

 

 

Last Edited: Thu. Jul 16, 2020 - 11:19 AM
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rahulk7 wrote:
 There is no much force in municipal supply to fill the roof tank directly

That wasn't the question!

 

I asked if you can get any flow at all. Even if it's just a trickle, that could be enough to activate a flow switch.

 

if I build a small tank in my house, I will not get enough water because other peoples will suck water by the pump motor  

 

If you really can't get any flow at all into the "main" tank, then you could just use the small tank to detect the flow, and have a motorised valve to switch a direct connection to the pump once you've detected that water is available.

 

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The 'tricky' part is how to determine that there is water available from the local water source. So how would you determine there is water available? Open up the tap and see if water flows out?

If water is available, at what pressure is it? Use a pressure switch?

 

If the pressue is low, that might not be a workable solution. That's why I suggested a small tank with a float switch. If the small tank gets full, a float valve stops the water. If your local tank level is low and there's water in the small tank - then the pump starts and the water level drops. Then the valve opens and fills the small tank again. If the small tank isn't refilled, then the pump stops.

 

If you want some programmable solution, then you'll need float sensors and solenoid valves. Now you've added a whole new level of complexity to the problem - what value does it add?

Besides, there's probably an 'off the shelf' solution already available. You need to ask yourself what is the problem you're wanting to solve, is there an existing solution to it and if you are going to do it yourself, what value are you adding?

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Kartman wrote:

The 'tricky' part is how to determine that there is water available from the local water source. So how would you determine there is water available? Open up the tap and see if water flows out?

If water is available, at what pressure is it? Use a pressure switch?

 

Kartman thank you, This means that I will need a pressure sensor that will detect the minimum water pressure when it is detected run the pump until the roof tank become full and when tank is full, stop the pump

 

Kartman wrote:
If you want some programmable solution, then you'll need float sensors and solenoid valves. Now you've added a whole new level of complexity to the problem - what value does it add?

Besides, there's probably an 'off the shelf' solution already available. You need to ask yourself what is the problem you're wanting to solve, is there an existing solution to it and if you are going to do it yourself, what value are you adding?

Yes, I want to build a programmable system because when water supply came in the morning and I could not get up from sleep, I do not get water that day.  its serious problem 

 

I have not found any product for this in the market. That's why I want to make it myself

 

short conclusion: list of component that will need 

 

pressure sensor: pressure sensor to detect water pressure 

float switch: float switch to detect the water level in a roof tank 

relay module: relay module to control the motor pump

Microcontroller 

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rahulk7 wrote:

pressure sensor: pressure sensor to detect water pressure 

float switch: float switch to detect the water level in a roof tank 

relay module: relay module to control the motor pump

Microcontroller 

Not sure what the microcontroller is for, just the pressure switch and tank float will do as you need.

Being cautious around water as I am, I would use redundant float switches to prevent spill over, but YMMV.

 

Jim

 

 

(Possum Lodge oath) Quando omni flunkus, moritati.

"I thought growing old would take longer"

 

Last Edited: Thu. Jul 16, 2020 - 01:57 PM
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Note that a Pressure sensor may well detect pressure before the water actually reaches your "household tap" - as there will be air in the empty pipe.

 

Be sure that your pump can cope with that!

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Same here - i fail to see how adding a microcontroller is going to make the system any better. If anything it will add unreliability.
If anything, if you can’t get the system working with simple devices, then you’ve got no hope using a microcontroller.

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So how reliable is your mains power source?

What happens if the water is on, but the power is out?

 

Jim

 

 

(Possum Lodge oath) Quando omni flunkus, moritati.

"I thought growing old would take longer"

 

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In addition to the suggestions already made, here are some of my thoughts:

 

1. You need to detect an increase in pressure, but it will be low, say less than 50 kPa (else you don't really need a pump, expect if the tank is located quite high up).  Can you get hold of a pressure switch that can activate at this low pressure (best bet is probably the water pump supplier)?  If not, think of alternatives such as the vacuum advancer on older car ignition systems, or build something with a rubber diaphragm where the water pressure can push the diaphragm against a mechanical switch. This will start the cycle, but I suspect the pressure will drop once the pump kicks in, so you will need some other logic to keep the pump running.  Also as previously mentioned if your pump is oversized for the supply, you may run into cavitation problems which will reduce the pump life. You can fix this to some degree by throttling the discharge valve to reduce the flowrate pulled from the supply.

 

2. The pump it will run dry if the supply is cut off.  One measure to detect this is so put a pressure switch on the discharge side of the pump that opens when the discharge pressure falls away, this should then switch off the pump. Should be a similar pressure switch to the inlet side, but it should switch at a higher pressure (a little below the normal discharge pressure when filling the tank).

 

3. You need to protect against overfilling the storage tank, so a high level switch (could be a simple float attached to an arm connected to a switch) should shut down the pump if activated.

 

You could implement the wiring of the switches in such a way that it implements the control logic and you don't need further fancy control.  I'm a bit skeptical about this, since there may be some time lag between switching on the pump and getting to the normal discharge pressure while the supply pressure is also falling away because of forward flow.  Important safety note: use low voltage for the sensing/logic part of the control and activate the mains to the pump via a switching element such as a relay.

 

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ki0bk wrote:

So how reliable is your mains power source?

What happens if the water is on, but the power is out?

it is an important point Electricity comes to my house from the electric grid. If the water is on and the power is off then I have to fill the water in the vessels, buckets manually but this happens rarely.

 

Can I get some kind of alert if the power goes out like buzzer started ringing? 

Last Edited: Fri. Jul 17, 2020 - 03:22 AM
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Can anyone help me to find a suitable pressure switch? I don't know which one would be suitable for the requirements

 

Water Pump 

Features:

  • Thermal Overload Protector 
  • Aluminium body + stainless steel motor shaft
  • Single Phase + Suction : 25 x 25 (1" x 1")
  • Discharge : 1400 Ltrs Per Hour + Max Current 5.8A + Voltage : 180 - 240V
  • Total Head : 25M + Works Upto 80 ft (In
  • cluding Suction 15 - 20 ft)
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rahulk7 wrote:
Can anyone help me to find a suitable pressure switch? I don't know which one would be suitable for the requirements

 

Dear me......

 

How is anyone here going to spec a pressure switch when no one...even you knows what the pressure at teh tap actually is?

 

 

Years ago I automated my pool filter.  i found an inexpensive pressure sensor on EBAY for a few dollars from China.  I Bought a couple of them so I have a few spares.  they have a 4 - 20ma output so depending on teh output current I can tell what the pressure of my pool filter is.

 

SO!  Using the pressure sensor >>Also called a pressure transducer<< and an AVR you could then measure teh pressure in teh pipe and when you know there is water in teh pipe take the pressure reading minus a few psi and use that as your reference point.  If the micro(avr) senses a higher pressure than the reference then turn on teh pump and fill your local tank unit a float switch in the tank indicates its full, then turn off the pump. 

 

Very simple.

 

Here! I found one thats PERFECT to connect directly to the ADC of a 5V AVR!!:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pressur...

 

0 - 100psi.  THIS should be perfect to sense your water pressure.

 

 

Hmmmm, might want to get one of these myself....

 

JIm

I would rather attempt something great and fail, than attempt nothing and succeed - Fortune Cookie

 

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rahulk7 wrote:
Can I get some kind of alert if the power goes out like buzzer started ringing? 
So what will power your buzzer? (I know the answer is a battery backup.)

Ross McKenzie ValuSoft Melbourne Australia

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Two float switches. Both in the tank that the water will flow into when it is available. One is high in the tank and will shut off the available water. The other is low in the tank and will turn on the pump to lift the water to the roof tank. Sorry no MCU or anything fancy needed, but maybe some blinking lights would help.

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Kartman thank you, This means that I will need a pressure sensor that will detect the minimum water pressure when it is detected run the pump until the roof tank become full and when tank is full, stop the pump

It sounds like the water is perhaps very limited, like a trickle of water, so even a pressure switch can be a problem....you might have some pressure built up, but if there isn't much water to back it up, or thin pipes, once you start pumping, it immediately gets sucked dry due to low delivery capacity.   You want your pump to operate steady for the longest time possible, which may mean it stays off for a while.  you don't want it  going ON.off.ON.off.ON.off.ON.off  you want  off.off.off.ON.ON.ON.ON.ON.ON.ON.off.off.off.off.off.off.off

 

If the flow is a dribble, then your best bet is to have a big tank on the ground & then pump it up to the roof.    Say the dribble takes 20 minutes to fill the lower tank, but your pump can empty it to the roof in 30 seconds.  You need a  latching float switch that gets set when the lower tank is full and resets when it is almost empty (you see these types on sump pumps)...then you have a working system (with addition oF an overflow detect float switch on the upper tank.

The bottom tank is sealed, so it can't overflow (and blocks any more incoming water).    Note you may be required to have a backflow/one-way valve to prevent your system from injecting stuff backwards into the community system.

    

https://www.landmsupply.com/vertical-float-switch-br-with-bracket-92010

Here the float rises to the top of the rod to turn on the pump, the pump stays on as the float goes down the rod.  At the bottom, the float pulls on the rod to turn off the pump switch.  The distance traveled is the hysteresis.

 

 

 

When in the dark remember-the future looks brighter than ever.   I look forward to being able to predict the future!

Last Edited: Fri. Jul 17, 2020 - 04:49 AM
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Yep, it does sound like limited water, and with that float switch, only one is needed. Send the roof overflow to the garden.

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rahulk7 wrote:
Can anyone help me to find a suitable pressure switch? I don't know which one would be suitable for the requirements

I would start experimenting with one ripped out of an old washing machine (or dishwasher etc).

 

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Maybe I'm missing something, but if this pic shows your situation: https://www.avrfreaks.net/sites/...

the head pressure from the taller tank would be ample to fill your tank without a pump.  This can be easily demoed using two buckets and hose (water flows down hill)!

A pump would be needed only if the city water tank was at ground level, or at least below your local tank level. 

Jim

 

 

 

 

(Possum Lodge oath) Quando omni flunkus, moritati.

"I thought growing old would take longer"

 

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ki0bk wrote:
the head pressure from the taller tank would be ample to fill your tank without a pump. 

The problem seems to be that other people are using pumps:

In #8, rahulk7 wrote:
We don't make the small tank in the ground so whenever water flow is detected people fill roof tank by the home water pump. if I build a small tank in my house, I will not get enough water because other peoples will suck water by the pump motor  

 

So what is really needed is for everyone to be more community spirited, and stop using pumps - then everyone would get their fair share.

 

frown

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awneil wrote:
So what is really needed is for everyone to be more community spirited, and stop using pumps - then everyone would get their fair share.

Or maybe the municipality needs to stop shutting the water off?  Odd they will do this.

 

Jim

I would rather attempt something great and fail, than attempt nothing and succeed - Fortune Cookie

 

"The critical shortage here is not stuff, but time." - Johan Ekdahl

 

"Step N is required before you can do step N+1!" - ka7ehk

 

"If you want a career with a known path - become an undertaker. Dead people don't sue!" - Kartman

"Why is there a "Highway to Hell" and only a "Stairway to Heaven"? A prediction of the expected traffic load?"  - Lee "theusch"

 

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jgmdesign wrote:
Odd they will do this.

I imagine that water is in short supply where the OP lives, and/or the infrastructure is inadequate.

 

This is, sadly, not uncommon in many parts of the world.

 

EDIT 

 

And, as  ki0bk noted in #15, the mains electricity supply may not be as reliable as we westerners have come to expect ...

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Last Edited: Fri. Jul 17, 2020 - 06:00 PM
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This is, sadly, not uncommon in many parts of the world.

VERY common when I was growing up in Italy and I think this is still the case in many places.

John Samperi

Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.

www.ampertronics.com.au

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