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How's it going? What's new with you?

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Quote:
How's it going?

So-so, I guess..
Quote:
What's new with you?

Good: Got the last of the newly delivered firewood under roof today. Bad: It's more or less soaking wet - won't be usable this winter.

But I'm sure you'd rather have some thoughts on the resurrection of WinAVR. I'm wondering: Wasn't Atmel going to do this, albeit under a different name? What am I missing? (Did you get sacked? :shock:) Personally I don't care much if it's WinAVR or same-same-but-different-name. I like the straight-forward, no-nonsense install structure of WinAVR.

OTOH, if the RSN(?) AVR Studio 5 will be cross-platform it would be nice with a a setup of avr-gcc that was as identical as it can possibly/practically be between different platforms (the ones that interest me are Windoze and GNU/Linux - specifically Debian-based distis, primarily Ubuntu). If you do WinAVR and some totally different freak/geek does "DebAVR" then the chance of them being similar lessens - assuming Atmel would make them more similar (rules out the French crew that barfed up FLIP if I understand things correctly, and that framework thing if my suspicions are correct).

EDIT: To make it clear, I cast one of the "other" votes.

As of January 15, 2018, Site fix-up work has begun! Now do your part and report any bugs or deficiencies here

No guarantees, but if we don't report problems they won't get much of  a chance to be fixed! Details/discussions at link given just above.

 

"Some questions have no answers."[C Baird] "There comes a point where the spoon-feeding has to stop and the independent thinking has to start." [C Lawson] "There are always ways to disagree, without being disagreeable."[E Weddington] "Words represent concepts. Use the wrong words, communicate the wrong concept." [J Morin] "Persistence only goes so far if you set yourself up for failure." [Kartman]

Last Edited: Sun. Oct 17, 2010 - 08:05 AM
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Am I really the only one who's voted "Yes" so far? Gadzooks!

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Eric,

You've surely read my post-WinAVR rants series, especially the latest sequel..

To sum it up, I don't care about the name, if the toolchain is up to the expectations. IMHO, it is not at the moment. It works, but it is not as clean and smooth as it should be, and as it used to be. As an aside, it is simply stup^H^H^H^Hunwise not to call it WinAVR.

JW

PS There is a sticky post on top of this forum, which among others leads to this ;-) Or did you want to avoid attention of somebody else reading this forum :-?

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WOW 6 votes so far. I think it's pretty much unanimous.

Do we want new releases just to be new releases? It usually means new bugs. The only annoying thing I find (apart from C....) is lack of brace matching but that's not winAvr as such.

John Samperi

Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.

www.ampertronics.com.au

* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly

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Like most, so far, I could care less what the name is.

But, something with that minimum functionality that keeps up with new device releases is really important.

Personally, I really like Eclipse, EXCEPT for debugging. Admitting that I have no good idea how to run the gcc debugging tools, I have to fall back on WinAVR to debug. Since the two compilers are essentially the same (different makes, from what I can tell), there is no difficulty, so far, recompiling under WinAVR and proceeding with a debug session, there. HOWEVER, its a pain to switch from MacOS to VMWare/WinXP just to do this. The Eclipse editor is soooo superior to WinAVR's that that single feature, alone, justifies the pain.

Eric, hope you are doing well and that this does not mean that you are no longer associated with Atmel's AVR support software effort.

Jim

Jim Wagner Oregon Research Electronics, Consulting Div. Tangent, OR, USA http://www.orelectronics.net

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Eric,

This scares me a little. I've been anticipating the AVRStudio 5 with WinAVR built in. Am I waiting in vain? If Atmel has dropped the ball on AVRStudio 5, then yes it would be nice to see WinAVR kept up. If AVRStudio 5 is imminent and has WinAVR built in, then I'm not as interested.

So will AVRStudio 5 have WinAVR and will it arrive soon?

Smiley

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Quote:
The Eclipse editor is soooo superior to WinAVR's
But winAvr does not have an editor as such (see my comments above about braces), it uses whatever the user wants. In Studio it's editor is used otherwise one could use PN or whatever.

It would be nice to have a better editor built into Studio but that could mean "Studio 5" ...whatever that is... not necessarily a different version of the compiler. UNLESS winAvr goes the Codevision or Imagecraft way and Eric becomes rich in the process. :) Why not? If I had the brains to do that I would.

John Samperi

Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.

www.ampertronics.com.au

* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly

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Quote:

If Atmel has dropped the ball on AVRStudio 5

A lot of thoughts/speculations went through my mind when reading Erics post, but this actually wasn't one of them.

If this is the case then this is really sad. "poooof" goes the cross platform expectations. And as I understand it, there can be no community initiative as Atmel has decided to keep their debugging protocols secret.

EDIT: What I really don't like here is the question posed by Eric in a way that leads to all these speculations. I am a bit surprised as it is not at all like him.

Why does the question not start "While the Atmel release of Studio 5 and the official toolchain package is still on, we wonder if there is interest in a lightweight...."?

Or, if that is the case, why does it not start "The french team behind FLIP, who lately has been working on AVR Studio 5, proved to be inferior Java programmers. For financial reasons Atmel can not re-start the project with the team that has proven (with Studio32) that the project is indeed feasible. Instead the whole Studio 5 project has been scrapped. We therefore ask you if there is interest in..."?

If the latter situation is at hand then I'd be happy with a return of WinAVR and Atmel supplying enough binaries for different platform so that we ourselves can set up and run eg a Dragon debug session on eg Ubuntu.

As of January 15, 2018, Site fix-up work has begun! Now do your part and report any bugs or deficiencies here

No guarantees, but if we don't report problems they won't get much of  a chance to be fixed! Details/discussions at link given just above.

 

"Some questions have no answers."[C Baird] "There comes a point where the spoon-feeding has to stop and the independent thinking has to start." [C Lawson] "There are always ways to disagree, without being disagreeable."[E Weddington] "Words represent concepts. Use the wrong words, communicate the wrong concept." [J Morin] "Persistence only goes so far if you set yourself up for failure." [Kartman]

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Quote:

EDIT: What I really don't like here is the question posed by Eric in a way that leads to all these speculations.

Perhaps this EW guy is just a troll? :lol:

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Personally I am quite happy with avr-gcc as it is. The compiler is fairly solid. It produces respectable code.

OTOH, the Studio debugger is a real pain. Especially with trying to Watch local variables that are in registers.

Th COFF files produced by CodeVision show local register variables. And the UBROF-8 files produced by IAR also show them.

Whether this is the fault of avr-gcc not creating the correct debug info in the ELF file, or Studio not parsing a valid ELF file.

This issue is VERY important. Whosoever responsibility it is, this needs fixing.

If I was Atmel, I would pay IAR, Rowley, Eric ... immediately to get it fixed.

In the longer term, most of the manufacturers seem to be providing similar debugging support. They may all look fairly familiar. This means that punters will choose the silicon that best suits their needs, not the manufacturer with the best tools.

However, if the tools do not keep up, Atmel will suffer.

David.

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Quote:

PS There is a sticky post on top of this forum, which among others leads to this Wink Or did you want to avoid attention of somebody else reading this forum

Seconded. Indeed a strange title and wording from EW.

But Atmel does not endorse any compiler brands.
https://www.avrfreaks.net/index.p...
Yet the app notes are generally written with one flavour; another flavour is being discussed here; some libraries (e.g. touch) are provided for those two flavours--and ONLY those two flavours.

No wonder I seem confused--I am.

Lee

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

I've never met a pig I didn't like, as long as you have some salt and pepper.

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I agree that the companion "message" is out of character for EW.

The "poll" HAS been modified since I took it. There was no "Don't Care" option. So, the poster has been back.

Confused, also.

Jim

Jim Wagner Oregon Research Electronics, Consulting Div. Tangent, OR, USA http://www.orelectronics.net

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Quote:

There was no "Don't Care" option.

I still see that option..

As of January 15, 2018, Site fix-up work has begun! Now do your part and report any bugs or deficiencies here

No guarantees, but if we don't report problems they won't get much of  a chance to be fixed! Details/discussions at link given just above.

 

"Some questions have no answers."[C Baird] "There comes a point where the spoon-feeding has to stop and the independent thinking has to start." [C Lawson] "There are always ways to disagree, without being disagreeable."[E Weddington] "Words represent concepts. Use the wrong words, communicate the wrong concept." [J Morin] "Persistence only goes so far if you set yourself up for failure." [Kartman]

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Hi Again,

Sorry for being flippant. I blame it on travel fatigue. I'm currently waiting for the last flight of an overseas itinerary now. Although I liked some of the responses above, especially the ones about being a troll and asking questions the smart way. ;)

I'm sorry that I can't be more detailed at the moment about what's going on with me. No, I didn't get sacked. I really do want to know what's on your mind, whether AVR tools related or otherwise. Let me know what's frustrating to you about your software development tools. What else would you like to see? (That's reasonable...) Please try and keep the speculation to a minimum, though. Most of the time, the speculations I see here are only half-right (and the other half terribly wrong).

John, I can't help you with your C troubles. You're just going to have to bite the bullet on that one and learn it. ;)

Thanks,
Eric

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ka7ehk wrote:
I agree that the companion "message" is out of character for EW.

The "poll" HAS been modified since I took it. There was no "Don't Care" option. So, the poster has been back.

Confused, also.

Jim

Hi Jim,

Just so you know, I did put the "Don't Care" option in the original post. I was trying to imagine what options people might want to choose, and just perhaps there might be people that really don't care one way or the other... :)

Eric

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JohanEkdahl wrote:

Quote:
What's new with you?

Good: Got the last of the newly delivered firewood under roof today. Bad: It's more or less soaking wet - won't be usable this winter.

Well, that's a bummer. We've an amazing extended summer this year. Very unseasonably warm. We just had our first snow last week (a month later than normal) and even then it melted as it hit the ground. The good side is that we've been able to keep cutting wood to try and stock up for some type of eventual snow.

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Quote:
I really do want to know what's on your mind, whether AVR tools related or otherwise. Let me know what's frustrating to you about your software development tools.

So the question is much more open than just the resurrection of WinAVR then?

As of January 15, 2018, Site fix-up work has begun! Now do your part and report any bugs or deficiencies here

No guarantees, but if we don't report problems they won't get much of  a chance to be fixed! Details/discussions at link given just above.

 

"Some questions have no answers."[C Baird] "There comes a point where the spoon-feeding has to stop and the independent thinking has to start." [C Lawson] "There are always ways to disagree, without being disagreeable."[E Weddington] "Words represent concepts. Use the wrong words, communicate the wrong concept." [J Morin] "Persistence only goes so far if you set yourself up for failure." [Kartman]

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Despite the appearance of an odd tone I struck, the questions I asked in the OP weren't rhetorical. :)

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wek wrote:
Eric,

You've surely read my post-WinAVR rants series, especially the latest sequel..

Yes, very much so. Even if I haven't responded to that thread recently, I have been keeping track of it. :|

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EW wrote:
Let me know what's frustrating to you about your software development tools. What else would you like to see? (That's reasonable...)
I would like to see a plug-in for AVRStudio that makes it Arduino-easy for novices. I could even write such a plug-in if I had any certainty of what AVRStudo will be next year. I'd hate to write a plug-in for AVRStudio 4 only to find it obsoleted the day I finish it by AVRStudio 5 written for Eclipse. So in the mean-time I'm building toys like ArdUp and ButterUp to bridge the gap. I know there is an attempt at building an AVR Eclipse, but again, I'm not willing to work on that since it may just start to get usable and Atmel could release a killer alternative.

So for me the real weakness is the intrigue, the willful uncertainty that seems to intentionally surround the future direction of AVRStudio and other tools for the 8-bit AVR.

I don't understand why Atmel doesn't just open the Kimono and announce that they will make the next version of AVRStudio open source. Doing this Atmel can get the expanded viewpoint and the free labor from all us AVR users. Maybe I'm overestimating the amount of support such an initiative would get? Or maybe Atmel is afraid of getting bogged down with 'advice'?

At a minimum, it seems to me that it would be very reasonable to convene a small group of folks with non-disclosure agreements (I have one) to hear what Atmel is working on and offer advice on directions and testing of alpha releases.

Smiley

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You bring up a lot of good points, Joe. Unfortunately, they're not my decisions. All I can do at the moment is pass along comments to the appropriate people.

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Quote:
You're just going to have to bite the bullet on that one and learn it.
What do you mean by that? :) https://www.avrfreaks.net/index.p...

Quote:
why Atmel doesn't just open the Kimono
I hope that's not like lifting up the kilt for a Scot...don't really like the picture. :shock:

John Samperi

Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.

www.ampertronics.com.au

* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly

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I was the second person to vote dont care.

What I have noticed over the years goes something like this. In the early days of open source there were projects like WINE and DOSEMU to try to make commercial aplications run on open source installations but now it is the other way around. A lot of effort is being put into making open source aplications run on one particular commercial system.
My own feeling is that this is only helping to prop up that system.

So while I dont care what happens to WinAVR I hope avr-gcc and avrlibc continue to develope.

John

If all else fails, read the instructions.

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JohnWalton wrote:

I hope avr-gcc and avrlibc continue to develope.
John

I agree with the above.

As i see the compiler as a separate tool , and only use the IDE for editing. I haven't used studio for making a single program yet , but use it for programming and debugging.
I use CodeBlocks (for both win & linux) , but always uses external makefiles.
So a working compiler is the most important for me.

At the moment i'm toying around with NXP Arm's , especially the LPC-Xpresso boards.
There is a lot of fustrations with the "CodeRed" tools for linux , because they only support a "few" linux os'es , and people using ie. mandriva. just gets a "unsupported os" reply from CodeRed , when ie. their debugger sessions fails.

This indicates to me that a "Basic" toolchain & debugger (Ie. GDB support for the "debuggers") , would be a nice thing to release.

Then people running "unsupported os'es" could add their own "IDE". And Atmel could provide the "Full IDE" for just a few OS'es , that they select to support 100%.

So i hope the "Free BSD" repos or whatever repos , keeps to get updated. And that Atmel would atleast release some linkable GDB libs/DLL's.

Edit: Btw.. I also find Erics initial wording strange , and the lack of his old avatar.

/Bingo

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Bingo600,

Eric's original question (which he removed meantime)[EDIT] NO it is in the POLL rather in the POST, my bad! sorry Eric [/EDIT] was, whether we want a new issue of WinAVR. That's roughly the equivalent of Bingo's scripts(TM), not the IDE as such.

JW

Last Edited: Mon. Oct 18, 2010 - 11:00 AM
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Quote:

Eric's original question (which he removed meantime)

What is this with the question and/or some alternative being removed? I'm on a machine I've not used for 'freaks for over a week, and I see the poll and all alternatives. Am I in a parallell universe, communicating with you through a wormhole???

As of January 15, 2018, Site fix-up work has begun! Now do your part and report any bugs or deficiencies here

No guarantees, but if we don't report problems they won't get much of  a chance to be fixed! Details/discussions at link given just above.

 

"Some questions have no answers."[C Baird] "There comes a point where the spoon-feeding has to stop and the independent thinking has to start." [C Lawson] "There are always ways to disagree, without being disagreeable."[E Weddington] "Words represent concepts. Use the wrong words, communicate the wrong concept." [J Morin] "Persistence only goes so far if you set yourself up for failure." [Kartman]

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Bingo600 wrote:
JohnWalton wrote:

I hope avr-gcc and avrlibc continue to develope.
John

I agree with the above.

*That*, I can guarantee. :)

Bingo600 wrote:

Edit: Btw.. I also find Erics initial wording strange , and the lack of his old avatar.

I got tired of the spinner... Suggestions welcome.

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JohanEkdahl wrote:
Quote:

Eric's original question (which he removed meantime)

What is this with the question and/or some alternative being removed?
Sorry I did not realize it was in the POLL not in the POST. Sorry again for adding noise, see [EDIT] above.

JW

PS. Would http://winavr.sourceforge.net/Wi... as avatar be too provocative a suggestion?

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Quote:

I got tired of the spinner...

Thank you.

As of January 15, 2018, Site fix-up work has begun! Now do your part and report any bugs or deficiencies here

No guarantees, but if we don't report problems they won't get much of  a chance to be fixed! Details/discussions at link given just above.

 

"Some questions have no answers."[C Baird] "There comes a point where the spoon-feeding has to stop and the independent thinking has to start." [C Lawson] "There are always ways to disagree, without being disagreeable."[E Weddington] "Words represent concepts. Use the wrong words, communicate the wrong concept." [J Morin] "Persistence only goes so far if you set yourself up for failure." [Kartman]

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As usual, I'm late to this party. Here's my take.

I have (had, see below*) three programmers on different AVR projects. One (myself) used AVR Studio as the primary edit and debug tool. One chose SlickEdit as the editing tool (since he was used to it) and use AVR Studio as the debugging tool. The final one tended toward my solution, but also worked with SlickEdit.

If the AVR toolset is integrated into AVR Studio, that tends to disenfranchise ("p***-off") the guys who want as little to do with the editor in AVR Studio as possible. I personally am not a fan of Eclipse; I find Code::Blocks a much better solution.

----

* - Answering one of the OP questions as as a side note, I will be unemployed as of the end of this week (company is shutting down) so I expect all of my AVR work will become hobby work. I'm collecting the tools from here that I can afford to take with me (JTAGICE mkII, STK500/501/503, power supplies :D) and leaving that which I cannot afford (Agilent 54622D - * :cry: *). I will be interviewing this week with another company in the same building so I hope that I will not be unemployed long, if at all.

I am hoping to do more work as a volunteer for the AVR-GCC effort now that copyright issues with my employer are no longer an issue. So this may be a good thing. :D

At any rate, I will be around this week. After this week, I hope to continue to post but the schedule will inevitably be different.

So that how it's going.

Stu

Engineering seems to boil down to: Cheap. Fast. Good. Choose two. Sometimes choose only one.

Newbie? Be sure to read the thread Newbie? Start here!

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Stu,

I'm very sorry to hear that but I'm guessing you'll have no problem finding another position.

(if nothing else you could probably author books about AVR programming ;-))

Cliff

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clawson wrote:
(if nothing else you could probably author books about AVR programming ;-))
'...if nothing else...' So that is the low-end default position?

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Stu,

I'm really very sorry to hear this. :( My sincere hope that you will be re-employed very, very quickly. You've always been a great help to me.

Eric

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well, at the momment no against voters yet......

My profession is hardware, not software. I like to and am still learning how to write good firmware.

Personally in this process I do not want to have to bother about how to install stuff. If it is included in studio 5 and you then only have to install the studio and can get to work then that is fine for me. Also like it is today, first installing studio and then installing the winavr package and get to work right away is also fine.

but for the moment there is no studio 5, it is not known when it will arive, but in the mean time winavr bugs are being solved.

Keep winavr up to date as long as possible and oinly stop when there is an actual studio 5 release that we can convert to I personally think that the studio 5 release is not comming soon and I have seen a number of threads here that bugs are being solved, but that you need to do your onw compiling to get it running. To me that is way over my head and reading a large number of posts where people even do not get an LEd to light up in a decent way , I think there are alot more people with this problem.

Also we do not know what is actually inside the toolchain, that you again have to register for, it is not decribed on the atmel website, so it is a gamble what will happen if I install it.

keep making updates until all atmel stuff is done as it might take some time for them to get it all right.

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Stu,

Sad to hear you are getting un-employed. Hope you find a new job real soon.

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"Hi!" also.

I wonder, why a people with 4254 posts was unable to name an informative topic :?: :? :?:

Peter

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Ummm. Because I felt like it?

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Thought I might add a small addendum to my earlier post. Plus good vibes to Stu - being out of work can be a bummer if you like working!

Anyway, like meslomp, I am really a hardware guy. I program partially because its necessary and partially because I enjoy it. For me, tool upgrades, dealing with OS peculiarities, environment variables and file paths, make files, and such are a pain. I'd rather that it "just works" and the less time fiddling with the tool stuff, the better.

AVRStudio + WinAVR is sort of the "minimum acceptable functionality " for me using a Mac. It pretty much works with the requirement that you know (more than I would like to) about 2 OSs. Eclipse is NOT the answer due to ineffective simulation and debugging and due to the fact that I have never been able to get it installed on one of two (Mac) machines that I use.

Thus, I am not genuinely "happy" with the tools I have. But, they work, at a sufficient level, and I hope it stays at least that good.

Cheers,
Jim

Jim Wagner Oregon Research Electronics, Consulting Div. Tangent, OR, USA http://www.orelectronics.net

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EW wrote:
Ummm. Because I felt like it?
Is it some kind of new rules/guidelines when you get over some k posts?

Is it only newbies that isn't allowed to use stupid subjects?

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Quote:

Is it some kind of new rules/guidelines when you get over some k posts?

That and (a) make one of the most significant contributions to AVR software development in its entire history, (b) be a member of Freaks.net from about the 2nd week (a little bird told me recently ;-)) and (c) be an Atmel employee (this is THEIR website after all)

If the moderators can't make a thread title exception for Eric (who's also a mod. of this forum - so make that (d) !) then I don't know who an exception could be made for? :lol:

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Yes, I've understood that Eric is an important person. And I think it's a serious question he's asking in the poll. So I don't understand why he use a subject that most look like spam. With that question I thought he wanted to have as many as possible here to read the thread and give a serious answer. If it wasn't a poll I wouldn't have read the thread at all. (Like anyone cares about that ;-))

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Thanks for all the best wishes -- I think I have an interview tomorrow, so keep your fingers crossed.

smileymicros wrote:
clawson wrote:
(if nothing else you could probably author books about AVR programming ;-))
'...if nothing else...' So that is the low-end default position?
:lol: No wars, please!

I might write my own book. Or I might give Smiley a hand. We shall see...

Stu

Engineering seems to boil down to: Cheap. Fast. Good. Choose two. Sometimes choose only one.

Newbie? Be sure to read the thread Newbie? Start here!

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snigelen wrote:
Is it some kind of new rules/guidelines when you get over some k posts?

Speaking if which... You are about to cross a boundary yourself!

:D

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"Some questions have no answers."[C Baird] "There comes a point where the spoon-feeding has to stop and the independent thinking has to start." [C Lawson] "There are always ways to disagree, without being disagreeable."[E Weddington] "Words represent concepts. Use the wrong words, communicate the wrong concept." [J Morin] "Persistence only goes so far if you set yourself up for failure." [Kartman]

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Well here we go then. One hundred! And you just did 10100!!! (a hundred in the last week or so, after you became a SuperFreak! But you know know what snigelen means (if spelled correctly), so I'll never be able to keep up with your post frequency.

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Quote:
why a people with 4254 posts was unable to name an informative topic
His previous psychedelic avatar messed with his mind. The doctors have forced him to get rid of it. :lol:

John Samperi

Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.

www.ampertronics.com.au

* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly

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snigelen wrote:
Yes, I've understood that Eric is an important person. And I think it's a serious question he's asking in the poll. So I don't understand why he use a subject that most look like spam. With that question I thought he wanted to have as many as possible here to read the thread and give a serious answer. If it wasn't a poll I wouldn't have read the thread at all. (Like anyone cares about that ;-))
It is an in-joke among the cognescenti who thought it was funny. It is like the difference between parody and stupidity.

Smiley

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I go for stupidity......

just because it is a post from Erik, the subject does not matter ;) read it anyway, just because he is that important :)

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Actually, yes. I can tell you that I’ve read many posts, just because of their author. Some people just have something interesting to say, no matter what the title is.

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js wrote:
His previous psychedelic avatar messed with his mind. The doctors have forced him to get rid of it. :lol:

:lol:

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Call the thread title what you will: stupid, annoying, funny, ironic, whatever... But please allow me a slight bit of humor about it. Hey, I couldn't think of anything more appropriate at the time. I was in the middle of overseas international travel. I was tired. (As I've mentioned now for the second time.)

I find it ironic that there is more debate about the inanity of the thread title, then there is real discussion about anything else. Which I think really says something about how the level of discussion around here has sunk to new lows. :(

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