DIP parts Market status for ATMEL ATmega MCU's

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#1
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Dear all, it looks like the user friendly DIP ATmega MCU's are becoming obsolete here in Europe. Not considering the ones produced in China, which I never have used so far and it takes forever to get them shipped. I think everyone will agree that plugging anything in DIP into good quality breadboard is a great feeling. I mean that soldering the TQFP and MQFP 44-60 pin MCU's are still "okay" with sweating, but still it is something to avoid if there is a chance, because, one needs to purchase a suitable adapter board, then good soldering tools are highly needed.

 

So i found a retailer here, who sells still original ATMEL parts in DIP and for reasonable /nice price. Is it worth to stack-up for unknown future and buy some DIP chips in case end of the world is near?

 

work in progress...

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THats entirely up to you.  I am at the point where I have a certain set of chips that I use for various levels of projects.  All available in SMD and I simply have my board vendor build my boards as its cheaper for me in the long run as they have the tools to do it better than I can.

 

If you feel the need to use DIP at all costs then I would stock up if the opportunity presents itself. YMMV

 

JIm

I would rather attempt something great and fail, than attempt nothing and succeed - Fortune Cookie

 

"The critical shortage here is not stuff, but time." - Johan Ekdahl

 

"Step N is required before you can do step N+1!" - ka7ehk

 

"If you want a career with a known path - become an undertaker. Dead people don't sue!" - Kartman

"Why is there a "Highway to Hell" and only a "Stairway to Heaven"? A prediction of the expected traffic load?"  - Lee "theusch"

 

Speak sweetly. It makes your words easier to digest when at a later date you have to eat them ;-)  - Source Unknown

Please Read: Code-of-Conduct

Atmel Studio6.2/AS7, DipTrace, Quartus, MPLAB, RSLogix user

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Or do your prototyping with Ardino nano or pro-micro which are on dip friendly carrier boards.   DIP is dead and has been for some time.

 

Jim

Click Link: Get Free Stock: Retire early! PM for strategy

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Dave_Zeb. wrote:
it looks like the user friendly DIP ATmega MCU's are becoming obsolete here in Europe
Eh?

 

Apart from the fact that the old dinosaurs like mega8, mega16, mega32 may be as old as the hills I don't see any likelihood that they'll actually stop making / selling those. But after that you have the more modern chips like mega48/88/168/328 and mega164/324/644/1284 all in 28 or 40 pin DIP. Why do you think they would "die out". Again I think they'll still be around for years, (decades?)

 

What is maybe true is that Atmel-Chips recent push is into these AVR-0 and AVR-1 families (the Xtiny alikes) and perhaps they won't be offered in DIP. But a bit like Mark Twain's death I think you may be calling the death of DIP far too prematurely.

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clawson wrote:
But a bit like Mark Twain's death I think you may be calling the death of DIP far too prematurely.

 

Unlike PLCC...wink

I have some Mega8535's in PLCC sitting in my stores waiting for a resurrection.

 

Jim

I would rather attempt something great and fail, than attempt nothing and succeed - Fortune Cookie

 

"The critical shortage here is not stuff, but time." - Johan Ekdahl

 

"Step N is required before you can do step N+1!" - ka7ehk

 

"If you want a career with a known path - become an undertaker. Dead people don't sue!" - Kartman

"Why is there a "Highway to Hell" and only a "Stairway to Heaven"? A prediction of the expected traffic load?"  - Lee "theusch"

 

Speak sweetly. It makes your words easier to digest when at a later date you have to eat them ;-)  - Source Unknown

Please Read: Code-of-Conduct

Atmel Studio6.2/AS7, DipTrace, Quartus, MPLAB, RSLogix user

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well I mean obsolete for purchasing them as a private person, not on a behalf of company. I know that Digikey or Farnell/Element14, and others have tons of DIP parts for next 700 years. But they do not sell them to private people. It is only corporate merchandising.

Then the local shops like Conrad here, have almost nothing. That's where my worries are sourcing. I remember trying to purchase something from Digikey, I was not employed that time and ordering through purchase department was offline. So after a month telephone calls and correspondence  they ended up rejecting me.  I am not calling the death of DIP by no means. It would be really undemocratic if semiconductor companies stop making DIPs. Not everywhere is needed those SMT parts  IMO

work in progress...

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Dave_Zeb. wrote:
they do not sell them to private people. It is only corporate merchandising.

I buy from Digikey and Mouser all the time, never a problem, very easy.   Perhaps its the overseas shipping, have you tried Farnel?

 

Jim

 

Click Link: Get Free Stock: Retire early! PM for strategy

share.robinhood.com/jamesc3274
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Farnell I haven't tried so far. Was curious about this local retailer which seems to be really fast and easy, also they have the range clawson mentioned for 5.49 per part price.

But after that you have the more modern chips like mega48/88/168/328 and mega164/324/644/1284 all in 28 or 40 pin DIP.

work in progress...

Last Edited: Mon. Oct 29, 2018 - 01:36 PM
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Dave_Zeb. wrote:
I know that Digikey or Farnell/Element14, and others have tons of DIP parts for next 700 years. But they do not sell them to private people. It is only corporate merchandising.

Utter NONSENSE!

 

I had been purchasing from Digikey and Mouser as a hobbyist way before I stupidly made a career out of electronics.  Several friends of mine who are hobbyists buy from Digikey and Mouser the same way I did back in the day.

 

Jim

I would rather attempt something great and fail, than attempt nothing and succeed - Fortune Cookie

 

"The critical shortage here is not stuff, but time." - Johan Ekdahl

 

"Step N is required before you can do step N+1!" - ka7ehk

 

"If you want a career with a known path - become an undertaker. Dead people don't sue!" - Kartman

"Why is there a "Highway to Hell" and only a "Stairway to Heaven"? A prediction of the expected traffic load?"  - Lee "theusch"

 

Speak sweetly. It makes your words easier to digest when at a later date you have to eat them ;-)  - Source Unknown

Please Read: Code-of-Conduct

Atmel Studio6.2/AS7, DipTrace, Quartus, MPLAB, RSLogix user

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I am a hobbyist.   I have bought from Farnell, RSWWW, Mouser,  ..., Microchip, ...

As long as your credit card is good,  they are all happy  to sell to private individuals.

 

I bought from Digikey once.   Never again.    But that was only because they use DHL.

 

Why do you want DIP controllers?   It is a lot more convenient to prototype with a ready made Arduino or dev board.

 

Let's face it.   The only Mega chips would be mega328P and mega1284P.     Even if your eventual target is mega48 or mega164 you would never use the DIP versions in any completed project.

 

You can put any Tiny chip onto an Adapter pcb but an XMINI-tiny817 is a lot more convenient for development.

Likewise,  the mega-0 series can be developed on an XPRO-4809

 

I confess.   I own a 90S2313 dev board,   a 90S8535 dev board, mega32 dev board,  ... all with MAX232 Serial.

Very occasionally I dig one of these boards out e.g. for Beta test MPLABX and Pickit4.

Yes,   they have DIP sockets.    Yes,   the 2313 board now holds Tiny4313.   32 board has probably got a mega1284P. 

 

But mostly I use Uno clones,  Zero or STM32 Nucleo.    Sometimes XPRO or XMINI.    Any external hardware can be mounted on Protoshields.    A single USB cable provides power, CDC Serial, debugging, ...

 

Woo-hoo.   I have just noticed.   We have got [Preview] button at last !!!

 

David.

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I suspect that now Microchip own the AVR range, that the long-term availability of specific chips, in specific packages, is more likely to continue.

#1 This forum helps those that help themselves

#2 All grounds are not created equal

#3 How have you proved that your chip is running at xxMHz?

#4 "If you think you need floating point to solve the problem then you don't understand the problem. If you really do need floating point then you have a problem you do not understand." - Heater's ex-boss

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I have more confidence in Microchip than Atmel.

 

However,  they could easily restrict the range.   e.g. there is little point in 48P, 88P, 168P, 328P when a single 328P would keep everyone happy.

I am amazed at the stocks of "obsolete" parts at Distributors.    Especially when they have been superseded by bigger, faster, better CHEAPER models.

 

They have shown that they do not want to package new models in DIP.

 

David.

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but why?, isn't DIP better for broad scope prototyping?. I can understand if the setup/device whatever aka prototype needs to be small for integration into human body, or phone, or in aircraft avionics, But whats the purpose of not using this packaging everywhere else where no one cares, no where size is not relevant. There are millions of places, for example a Audiofoolery/Audiofile market, where amplifiers are of 1/2 meter tall and weight 20KG. Why the hell SMT parts are needed to be used in assembly.?

 

I suspect that it might be related to hindering somehow the Hacker/Maker and everyone else non.commercial or against freedom of individuals in creating and making things. Although it is a speculation but could be true.

work in progress...

Last Edited: Mon. Oct 29, 2018 - 05:06 PM
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Vacuum tubes went from octal to B9A / B7G.   Germanium Transistors became available.    Silicon Transistors.   The first integrated circuits were bipolar.    NMOS, PMOS, CMOS integrated circuits.    CERDIP, DIP, PLCC all preceded the modern SMD packages.

 

You just have to move with times.    The hobbyist market is measured in thousands.    Popular chips sell by the millions and more.

 

If you think about it,   the hobbyist microcontroller market (with DIP) is limited to smaller AVR and PIC.    Not many classic 40-pin 8051 in the West.

 

NXP, Silab, TI, ST, Renesas, ... do not have DIP packages for microcontrollers.

 

David.

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For anything produced in a commercial manufacturing environment, SMT is preferred because if ease of pick-and-place . It makes a cheaper (oops, less costly) product. Yes, there are component inserters for leaded parts (resistors, for example) but SMT is faster and easier for machines to handle.

 

Also, for modern chips, you will find that DIP costs more from the manufacturer OR distributor. One reason for this is that there is more material (more epoxy, more metal in the pins, and such). The volume for SMT parts is so much higher, driving SMT prices down. Would not be surprised if the manufacturers are also trying to discourage DIP use.

 

Now, prototyping is a whole different ball game. You make, at most, a few. The individual parts cost and size is not so important (you buy only 10, not 10,000). DIY very similar.

 

Jim

Jim Wagner Oregon Research Electronics, Consulting Div. Tangent, OR, USA http://www.orelectronics.net

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ka7ehk wrote:
Now, prototyping is a whole different ball game. You make, at most, a few.

Well, yeah--I guess that is the definition of "prototyping".  I'd guess that the comment about prototyping was made about using solderless breadboards".  How many threads have we had over the years where "my AVR 'doesn't work'!" are traced to dodgy breadboard connections?  Tell more about what will be on these prototypes -- are the interesting parts available in DIP?  For most work, we'll have a board house run a small batch of boards from what we hope will be the end layout.

 

But perhaps the biggest vote is for the inexpensive complete dev boards.  Arduino clones can be delivered to your door, complete with all needed parts for the micro as well as niceties such as headers and LEDs, for less than you can buy the individual micro.

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

I've never met a pig I didn't like, as long as you have some salt and pepper.

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Agree.

 

I was commenting on the lament concerning apparent lack of DIP parts available for prototyping or DIY. I tried to assert that:

 

1. The source manufacturing volume is in SMT parts because end-product manufacturing costs are lower with SMT.

 

2. Lower volume for DIP parts, plus larger physical size, leads to higher component costs. In some cases, this is paired with lower availability.

 

I expect that we will see further erosion of price and availability of DIP/through-hole parts. DIY folks, especially, will have to resort to breakout boards and there will be an increasing number of "specialty" houses that produce and sell populated breakout boards for almost any IC one might need. BUT, this will come at a price and increased difficulty in finding them UNLESS the DigiKeys of the world decide stock such items. Under current component market conditions, it is sort of inevitable.

 

Jim

Jim Wagner Oregon Research Electronics, Consulting Div. Tangent, OR, USA http://www.orelectronics.net

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You will find that acquiring the tools and skills to do hot air soldering very useful and actually fun to do, it is easier/quicker to build an SMD board then a through hole board.

For bread board building, use a nano or similar clone for what ever processor your playing with.

One of these cost about as much as any good soldering iron alone: 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/3-in-1-...

 

Save up or mow some lawns and get one, and start having fun!

 

Jim

 

Click Link: Get Free Stock: Retire early! PM for strategy

share.robinhood.com/jamesc3274
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For tqfp parts just a normal soldering iron is sufficient. The secret is flux gell. The first AVR i used was tqfp back in 1999.

With high speed and higher power parts, the wires in the dip packages can be too long so the motivation is more technical than some Greek invention.

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The source of my frustration is below. I ended up using 5-6 different adapter to plug them into my breadboard. The most painful part was to make the wiring for the ADC's because the dip adapter HAHA is not suitable for standard breadboard. Indeed very useful DIP adapter from MQFP44>>DIP 44. So I have now all those ADC wires hanging around. Basically I did double mounting from MQFP44 to DIP 44 then to DIP44.

 

 

work in progress...

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Dave_Zeb. wrote:
Not considering the ones produced in China, which I never have used so far and it takes forever to get them shipped.
Microchip is adding AVR in DIP final fab or final test into Philippines and Thailand; so, the ones at Microchip may be seeing and resolving a production rate issue with DIP.

https://www.microchip.com/mymicrochip/Reports.aspx?type=cpn&filter=ATmega328P-PN

https://www.microchip.com/mymicrochip/Reports.aspx?type=cpn&filter=ATmega1284P-PU

both via PCN/EOL | Microchip Technology (Notification, 'Search by' pull-down menu, CPN, enter the part number, Search)

CPN = Catalog Part Number

didn't search for other megaAVR in DIP.

Dave_Zeb. wrote:
... then good soldering tools are highly needed.
somewhat so as it's more one's method by education, training, mentoring, and practicing.

flux

education - QFP methods: 1. sweep (bevel or hoof tip), 2. point-to-point (chisel tip), 3. drag (bevel or hoof tip) :

Professional SMT Soldering: Hand Soldering Techniques - Surface Mount - YouTube (3m19s)

Drag soldering QFP :

Master Soldering: Surface Mount Fine-Pitch - Highly Recommended - YouTube (3m59s)

Solder bridges - excess solder moves towards heat (no desoldering braid, clean hot tip)

What's holding a QFP lead is epoxy (the IC's lead frame is more for IC's package fab); don't linger with the tip, don't over-torque the QFP's lead (iow limit tip force)

mentoring - Wow : https://wiki.hackerspaces.org/Berlin

 

P.S.

(pardon as this is US-centric)

practicing -

Hakko's least expensive soldering station is usually stocked locally or regionally :

Hakko 70-Watt Digital Soldering Station-FX888D-29BY/P - The Home Depot

RadioShack soldering station (is it made by Hakko?) :

60-Watt Digital Soldering Station

 


HAKKO | Soldering iron | HAKKO FX-888D

on-sale :

https://www.radioshack.com/collections/soldering-tools/products/soldering-station-bundle

 

"Dare to be naïve." - Buckminster Fuller

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Dave_Zeb. wrote:

 

 I ended up using 5-6 different adapter to plug them into my breadboard.

C'mon -- it is 2018 and you are complaining on a general AVR8 forum about the difficulty putting external ADCs on a breadboard, of all things!  Yes, you are making a neat job of it; what is the capacitance of each of your connections?

 

Perhaps a General Electronics question?

 

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

I've never met a pig I didn't like, as long as you have some salt and pepper.

Last Edited: Mon. Oct 29, 2018 - 09:06 PM
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wrt Atmel's products in PLCC, the product changes appear to be mostly sPLD, the 8051s, mega8515, mega8535.

https://www.microchip.com/mymicrochip/Reports.aspx?type=subject&filter=PLCC

 

 

"Dare to be naïve." - Buckminster Fuller

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gchapman wrote:
wrt Atmel's products in PLCC,

It was a different story back when I was your age.  My 1951 Chevy pickup truck had vacuum-driven windshield wipers.

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

I've never met a pig I didn't like, as long as you have some salt and pepper.

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Dave_Zeb. wrote:
It would be really undemocratic if semiconductor companies stop making DIPs.
A corporation is not a democracy; at best, a benevolent dictatorship.

I somewhat jest; the best companies can be akin to a doubly extended family.

 

"Dare to be naïve." - Buckminster Fuller

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Dave_Zeb. wrote:
Indeed very useful DIP adapter from MQFP44>>DIP 44.

Actually, it's not DIP, but SIP...

 

I found these adapters in Aliexpress/Ebay:

They have a lack of holes, but I suppose one could solder bent pins to those pads. Alignment might be tricky and probably I would reinforce them with epoxy, I wouldn't trust something like that mechanically...

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You think it will work=?. I am quite skeptical, tried to measure capacitance but it seems that my multi meter is not capable to measure down to lower values. It does not show any value.

work in progress...

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david.prentice wrote:
Likewise,  the mega-0 series can be developed on an XPRO-4809
or ATmega4809 Curiosity Nano

more: 

https://www.avrfreaks.net/forum/megaavr-0-series?page=2#comment-2574606

 

"Dare to be naïve." - Buckminster Fuller

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Dave_Zeb. wrote:
... or against freedom of individuals in creating and making things.
Against an individual's liberty when one is not at liberty due to lack of cash.

Some PCBA fabs recognize that issue (small SMT) and will solve the issue given BOM, PnP, and layout in addition to "cash" cheeky

MacroFab | Redefining Electronics Manufacturing & Assembly

 

SMT liberty will partially arrive when PCB fab is akin to the current mass scale production of 3D printers.

(the ones at Ford 3D printed the metal intake manifold for Ken Block's Gymkhana 10 truck)

 

Edit: PnP

 

"Dare to be naïve." - Buckminster Fuller

Last Edited: Mon. Oct 29, 2018 - 09:44 PM
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that fabrication on the other hand, needs layouts and pcb generation files to be ready, then time and ze'Cash of course. It is quite nice to be able to print your own pcbs in fab, while playing DOOM at home, I agree, but it is still not as fast and flexible as rapid prototyping on breadboard, and changing 50 times parts and connections if its needed. Try to do it via fab.. hehe ^:^)

work in progress...

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Am envious as that's an excellent breadboard.

The metal back provides the ground plane for low impedance current loops (most digital, transistor drives, etc)

IIRC, AtomicZombie places his breadboards onto thin plate aluminum.

 

3M 300 Series Solderless Breadboards | DigiKey Electronics

How can I judge the quality of a breadboard? | BusBoard Prototype Systems

https://www.avrfreaks.net/users/atomiczombie

 

"Dare to be naïve." - Buckminster Fuller

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El Tangas wrote:
Alignment might be tricky and ...
Proto Advantage supplies a spacer with an adapter and its pins.

Surface Mount Pin Soldering of SMT to DIP Adapters - YouTube (52s)

Pin Assembly Instructions for Proto Advantage Adapters

Proto Advantage -

 

"Dare to be naïve." - Buckminster Fuller

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I do all hand assembly and agree with all the arguments concerning the ease of working with DIP.  However, I've switched to Arduino Nano (and occasionally Arduino Pro-Mini) development boards.  They have a row of 0.1" (0.254 cm) holes that match those on a "sea-of-holes" common prototyping board.  There is a host of support components on the board and a USB interface IC on the Nano. The Nano clones cost about $3 USD each on eBay and the ProMinis (no USB interface IC) cost about $2 each.  I have never had any problem with eBay seller's quality on Nano clones.  Plus the clones come with a working bootloader program installed.

 

  If you have a good lighted 5x or 10x magnifier, a fine-tipped low-wattage soldering pencil or iron, and 30AWG gauge wire-wrap wire, you can solder the thin stripped 30 gauge wire directly onto a quad-flat-pack pin.  It's not impossible.  Often, after several solders to the plated-thru Via hole, the trace burns up between the via hole and IC pin's pad.  The 30 gauge wire is the same thickness as the IC pin and can be soldered onto the top of the pin.  "Super Glue" the wire to the board so that it doesn't wiggle around and break the fragile solder connection between the pin and the wire.

 

I don't recommend "stocking up" on DIP parts as they might get expensive as they get used only in non-factory (non robot) production facilities (i.e. our little home work benches).   Plus in the next few years, there might be a general shift from AVR to ARM as the ARM eBay development boards begin to cost the same as AVRs [but have 10x the computer power],  and the ARM Arduino development tools get better.

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Some time ago I bought a lump of bismuth (500g) from Aliexpress. It's pretty, a well crystallized metal. Mixing the correct ratio of bismuth, lead and tin/lead solder, I made a bit of Rose's metal, which can be used as solder, but has a very low melting point (less than 100ºC).

I found it's very useful for prototyping because you don't need to be afraid of overheating components while soldering (you need an iron which can be set for a suitable temperature, like 150ºC or less). So, even if the component is taking to long to solder (SMT can be tricky) it's OK.

The drawback is that stuff that is contaminated with bismuth should no longer be used for tin/lead solder (it weakens joints subjected to thermal stress) so I keep separate tips for bismuth solder. Also the solder is home made, so it's not in convenient wires with flux core. I use a home-made water soluble flux.

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"Dare to be naïve." - Buckminster Fuller

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Yeah, but indium is a lot more costly.

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theusch wrote:

... what is the capacitance of each of your connections?

 

Some figures from a cheapo eBay breadboard...

 

residual capacitance of my tester's leads 1.2pF

2 adjacent 'signal' strips 4.0pF

2 adjacent (long) power strips 24.8pF

#1 This forum helps those that help themselves

#2 All grounds are not created equal

#3 How have you proved that your chip is running at xxMHz?

#4 "If you think you need floating point to solve the problem then you don't understand the problem. If you really do need floating point then you have a problem you do not understand." - Heater's ex-boss

Last Edited: Tue. Oct 30, 2018 - 09:23 AM
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I am utterly gobsmacked by #20.    Surely you would choose an MCU that has sufficient ADC and GPIO pins.    It is likely to be TQFP-64, TQFP-100, TQFP-144, ...

 

A 40-pin DIP package is about as big as anyone can handle.    There are plenty of simple SMD adapter pcbs.   But a ready-made module is a lot more convenient.

 

Everyone has their own personal opinions and choices.    There are plenty of audiophiles that are convinced that vacuum tubes on octal bases are better than modern semiconductors.

 

I am sure that you will always be able to obtain obsolete AVRs in DIP packages on the Ebay market.    Definitely long after I have gone up the chimney.

It is unlikely that new devices will be made in these packages.

 

David.

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For anyone who struggles with SMT...

 

https://schmartboard.com/surface...

 

Note: these are not your average SMT adaptors. They have a clever feature to make soldering a lot easier.

#1 This forum helps those that help themselves

#2 All grounds are not created equal

#3 How have you proved that your chip is running at xxMHz?

#4 "If you think you need floating point to solve the problem then you don't understand the problem. If you really do need floating point then you have a problem you do not understand." - Heater's ex-boss

Last Edited: Tue. Oct 30, 2018 - 10:07 AM
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Just to note that in a previous life we used several million ATmega16 in DIP packaging. We actually chose DIP so that a single sided, wave flow solder board could be used. The amount of copper we saved (several million times) made this cost effective. So DIP is not necessarily verbotten in high volume commercial use.

 

Note the reason for not just shrinking everything onto a small SMD board with a surface mount package was that the board was a "front panel" and all the LEDs and buttons had to be spaced out so the board was bound to be big (long and thing in fact) so the copper area really mattered. It was behind the front of this:

Image result for sky+ front panel circuit board

behind the scenes something like: