25A wire

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Hi
I am looking for 3 meters of 25A/125VAC wire which can be soldered. I searched digikey but there are several options I do not know what they mean. Could you please guide me where I can get it?
Thanks

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This chart says 8 gauge or 10 gauge http://www.cerrowire.com/ampacit...

Imagecraft compiler user

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Both of which will be difficult to solder.

The copper wire will pull the heat away from the splice / joint very quickly, making it difficult to do.

With a high wattage soldering iron it is doable, however.

JC

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bobgardner wrote:
This chart says 8 gauge or 10 gauge http://www.cerrowire.com/ampacit...

Thanks. I had no idea to look for gauge keyword.

DocJC wrote:

The copper wire will pull the heat away from the splice / joint very quickly, making it difficult to do.

If I want to transfer 2200VAR in 110 VAC, Do I need to assume the peak current for the wire?

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Quote:
Could you please guide me where I can get it?
You would normally get this size wire from a store such as Home Depot or Lowes. You might want to make sure your life insurance policy is paid up as well.

Don

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Generally wire that size is crimped either with an electrical screw clamp(like what is in the circuit breaker). Or a ring connector. To solder wire that big you would need a propane torch and that will melt the insulation.

Out of curiosity what will this cable be supplying power to?

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jgmdesign wrote:
Generally wire that size is crimped either with an electrical screw clamp(like what is in the circuit breaker). Or a ring connector. To solder wire that big you would need a propane torch and that will melt the insulation.

Out of curiosity what will this cable be supplying power to?


The cable is supply the compensated reactive power in the lines with voltage sags. Probably happens in 3-phase faults which will lead to voltage collapse so it needs to have a high current.BTW, is the capacity for direct current? What about pulsed sinuous current with variable on-off intervals?

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Just a few comments. If you're connecting to 120 v electrical circuits, there are various safety codes to deal with. The levels that you are discussing start to fall into the area of electrical power engineering.

There will be local electrical codes regarding wire sizes and legal methods of connection if the power grid is involved. If this is a product, it will almost certainly require UL approval.

The wire itself can be obtained at places like Home Depot unless large quantities are required. They carry wire with all of the appropriate safety ratings.

This will normally be solid copper wire with very good insulation. It can be soldered with the a high wattage iron and a good tip -- a propane torch is not usually required. Various legal splice methods are also available.

The ratings are based on RMS AC current which is equivalent to dc. (actually dc will be slightly better because there is no skin effect). As for the duty cycle questions -- you will be liable if something burns down.

I would strongly suggest that you look for some experts in this area. That's a lot of power and some very nasty things can happen.

best wishes,

hj

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Quote:
The cable is supply the compensated reactive power in the lines with voltage sags.

Mmmm... sounds interesting! Tell us more!

Charles Darwin, Lord Kelvin & Murphy are always lurking about!
Lee -.-
Riddle me this...How did the serpent move around before the fall?

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ereihani,

I echo the warnings of prior posters. You can get yourself in a lot of trouble messing with this level of power. Possibly putting others in harm's way too.

If you don't know where to buy the appropriate wire, there's probably a lot of other things you don't know about safe wiring practices as well.

If I am not mistaken the National Electrical Code prohibits soldering of conductors. All connections are to be made with UL approved connection gizmos.

Please seek professional help or in-person guidance with this project.

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ereihani wrote:
bobgardner wrote:
This chart says 8 gauge or 10 gauge http://www.cerrowire.com/ampacit...

Thanks. I had no idea to look for gauge keyword.

DocJC wrote:

The copper wire will pull the heat away from the splice / joint very quickly, making it difficult to do.

If I want to transfer 2200VAR in 110 VAC, Do I need to assume the peak current for the wire?

"gauge" probably implies AWG to American readers.
Brits might assume SWG.

Nowadays, modern civilisation use cross-sectional area of copper wire.

25A is not very high current. It all depends on how much voltage loss is acceptable and how much temperature rise.

For example, many MOSFETs or transistors are rated for 25A. Cut open the can / plastic case and you will see fairly delicate bonding wires.

In Europe, regular domestic outlets are 13A @ 220V.
The equivalent 110V outlets must be ~25A.

So I would guess that an American electric kettle will be ~25A. Cut open a 25A fuse. Your wire must be thicker than this.

In other words, choose your requirements. Then look up the relevant wire tables.

David.

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Quote:

25A is not very high current.

Quote:

So I would guess that an American electric kettle will be ~25A.

I wouldn't think so.

In my [limited] experience, I don't think I've seen a household single circuit breaker (or fuse) on a 120VAC line over 20A.

I've been on the edges of PFC (Power Factor Corrector/Compensation) projects. But as mentioned, I don't think I've ever seen directly soldered conductors. If nothing else, it makes installation and maintenance harder.

And I was working with experienced electrical engineers qualified for power (mains) work. From the tone of the OP, it is indeed scary...

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

I've never met a pig I didn't like, as long as you have some salt and pepper.

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European kettles are mostly 2kW. i.e. 9A @ 220V
Domestic Fan heaters, electric fires may be up to 3kW. i.e. 13A @ 220V
Domestic 3-pin socket outlets are rated at 13A.

Obviously domestic cookers, immersion heaters are always hard-wired and have separate wiring.

I presume that American domestic appliances that plug into socket outlets would have a similar power consumption. e.g. 3kW. 3kW would be 26A @ 110V. 2kW = 18A @ 110V.

Pure speculation. I have not consulted Wikipedia.

Most American appliances are bigger and better than European equivalents. Just look at your native cars, fridges etc.

David.

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Here in Canada, every house has at least 2 or more 120v circuits for lighting and outlets, and at least one 240v circuit for the heating, clothes dryer, and electric stove. None of them are hardwired. The main into the house is actually 240V 100A, which is split into two 120V circuits at the breaker panel. I think the maximum allowed amperage per 120v circuit is 20A. A regular 120v circuit is usually on a 15A breaker. Each 240V circuit is usually on a 30A breaker.

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Just looked at my Breaker box.

The Main Breaker at the top, for the entire house, is 150 A.

The majority of the circuits are 10 A.

There are a few breakers that were replaced with 2-in-1 breakers, and those are 15 and 20 A, in each 1/2 breaker.

One could make a lot of smoke with 25 A @ 125 V!

JC

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Yep, here the standard (*) is either a 20A or 15A branch on 120v circuits. In fact, for appliances, it is rare to even require a 20A branch, as 20A distribution is not guaranteed. As such, consumer type items max out at 1800W.

Martin Jay McKee

(*) In some places this is precisely written out it the building codes and in others it is a result of what is available. "Standard" is used here to mean both reasons, a result of codes and a result of availability.

As with most things in engineering, the answer is an unabashed, "It depends."

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david.prentice wrote:
European kettles are mostly ...
I presume that American domestic appliances that plug into socket outlets would have a similar power consumption. e.g. 3kW. 3kW would be 26A @ 110V. 2kW = 18A @ 110V.
...

David.

I'm from England but live in the US, one of my pet peeves over here in the US is that the normal electrical outlets can only provide about 17A maximum. So the power rating of small appliances such as toasters and kettles is limited to about 1500W as opposed to the 2-3kW in UK. It takes ages to boil the kettle for my tea and toast gets dried out because it toasts slower.

kevin

I'll admit that the small plug is convenient for electronic devices, USB chargers, TVs stereos etc.

kevin

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The blade pattern is different for 120V 30 amp. One is rotated 90 deg to one side. I cant remember if its the hot or the neutral. RVs use these.

Imagecraft compiler user

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Thing is Kevin, you blokes had your entire electrical infrastructure constructed so that you could boil a quick cup of tea, here only senior citizens drink tea. Real men drink beer, and a fridge compressor doesn't need 3KW... ;)

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Out of curiosity, Here in Redmond I pay approximately $0.10 per kWh including taxes and wind energy charges/credits for electricity. In Italy I pay much more, although my bills are managed there so I don't have the figures to post here.

What are the rates in the rest of Europe?

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Last Edited: Tue. Dec 31, 2013 - 06:11 PM
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Quote:

RVs use these.

I see it now, on the Wikipedia page...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEM...

But I'll repeat that I've never seen in house or farm a 120V bigger than 20A.

I thought there was a mention of "generator". Indeed, I've seen some interesting plug configurations on PTO-driven generators used for farm backup power. But the electrician has always wired up that type of thing, along with the approved cross-over switch to prevent the generator from powering the lines from the power grid.

OP mentions "3 phase". Again, I'm just going by limited experience doing firmware for this type of device...

From this page, it echoes what I recall:
http://www.ccontrolsys.com/w/Ele...

Quote:
The most common commercial building electric service in North America is 120/208 volt wye, which is used to power 120 volt plug loads, lighting, and smaller HVAC systems.

From the diagram we see that the phase-to-neutral voltages are 120VAC, and phase-to-phase is 208VAC. To me, that would be a monster 3-phase motor. Certainly there are large electric motors up to hundreds of horsepower, and it is this type of device that may have PFC. But those huge [to me] industrial motors wouldn't be using a low-voltage 220VAC mains circuitry, but would use a 277/480 system--so 120VAC wire sizing is irrelevant.

Take a look at this chart http://www.hvacwebtech.com/motor...

From that, a 3-phase 110V is a puny 2HP. The listed "220V" indicates about 10HP to get to the current draws that OP mentioned.

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

I've never met a pig I didn't like, as long as you have some salt and pepper.

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Regular supplies are 220V 3-phase for most businesses.

This means you have 440V delta for electric motors.

If you are on a remote farm, you might be stuck with single phase. i.e. a nightmare. Motors are 5 times the size and weight and about 10 times the price.

I had never considered that Americans would have smaller kettles! Mind you, they don't know how to make tea, so it does not matter.

David.

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I know that you asked about Europe Larry, but in Oz, but it is about $0.32/KWH peak & many homes have off-peak 11PM-7PM for water heating which is $0.16. (Price includes tax + Carbon tax). As well there is a $1.00/day demand charge whether you use any power or not.
Mostly our power comes from coal and gas. No nukes!
Because we utilize 240V single phase, we have a very much more simplified home switchboards. Only two wires are used to connect to the grid active & neutral and we use a MEN (multiple earth neutral) (each consumer has a local earth connected to the neutral.
The street distribution is 3 phase Y distribution (four wires).
IIRC, there is a world-wide plan to convert all mains distribution to 232V for standardization & interconnection. Won't that be fun!
Having said that, most electronic equipment now uses universal power supplies and they run about 6% more efficient at 232 volts than at 110 V. When you consider that just about everything runs on SMPS, it is estimated that the world saving by those countries on 110V switching to 232V will be about 11% of the total output of the Three Gorges hydroelectric dam in China.

Charles Darwin, Lord Kelvin & Murphy are always lurking about!
Lee -.-
Riddle me this...How did the serpent move around before the fall?

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The dude that asked about the 25A wire says he is in Hawaii. I haven't been there, but I betcha the wall sockets have 120V 60 Hz like the rest of the continental US.

Imagecraft compiler user

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Quote:
...Americans would have smaller kettles! Mind you, they don't know how to make tea, so it does not matter.

Everyone knows this is how one makes tea, and the tea comes in little plastic cups, not those soggy leaky little bags!

JC

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Yuck!

Ross McKenzie ValuSoft Melbourne Australia

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Most of the power here (~96%) comes from loads and loads of Hydro dams in the north (about 60 of them). The first 30 kWh per month are 0.0541$/kWh, rest is 0.0778$/kWh. There is also a surcharge of 6.21$ for each kW over 50kW of peak power per month during the winter months. Even though it seems cheap, it should really be half of that, stupid Hydro-Quebec exports most of our cheap energy to the US for a huge profit, and sells us the expensive stuff from wind farms, coal, gas, oil and nuclear plants instead... The big industry (aluminium) gets the rest of the cheap stuff.

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kevin_white wrote:
I'm from England but live in the US, one of my pet peeves over here in the US is that the normal electrical outlets can only provide about 17A maximum. So the power rating of small appliances such as toasters and kettles is limited to about 1500W as opposed to the 2-3kW in UK. It takes ages to boil the kettle for my tea and toast gets dried out because it toasts slower.

kevin

Over here we have microwave ovens, haven't you noticed? They will boil a cup of water in 2 minutes or less I think. No kettle required.

When I make tea I use a tea bag and 1:22 will get the water hot enough. Maybe you blokes use loose tea and need hotter water.

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DocJC wrote:

The majority of the circuits are 10 A.
JC
I don't think I've ever seen 10 A branch circuits. Only 15 or 20 A. I wonder what gauge wire is used. Hopefully at least 14 gauge.

Maybe they were special circuits that fed things like garbage disposals.

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Quote:
Over here we have microwave ovens, haven't you noticed? They will boil a cup of water in 2 minutes or less I think. No kettle required.
I think you just proved David's point.

Don

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Yo Boss: How much does an EV recharge cost in CA?

Imagecraft compiler user

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No kettle? That's part of the ceremony.

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Quote:
I don't think I've ever seen 10 A branch circuits. Only 15 or 20 A. I wonder what gauge wire is used. Hopefully at least 14 gauge.

Maybe they were special circuits that fed things like garbage disposals.


Oh man, a bad week, I've made several mistakes...
Fortunately all here, not at work!

I just went back down to the basement to re-check the box.

In the photo the poorly observant individual will see the big, white on black, clearly legible "10" on the labels on the breakers.

The astute observer will see the embossed 15 and 20 on the end of most of the breakers.

Soooo, Steve, good call. They are 15 and 20 Amp circuits. Don't know what the big "10" is on the label.

, I hate it when I make a mistake.

JC

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Lets settle this. When was Doc's house built? What time period was Steve talking about about 15 and 20 amp breakers? 10 years later? Let's shake and have a pint. You know Doc, I was wrong once when I thought I'd made a mistake, but I didn't.

Imagecraft compiler user

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The 10 is probably the kA rating. This is the maximum interruptible current. Any more and the breaker will melt.

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bobgardner wrote:
Yo Boss: How much does an EV recharge cost in CA?

Hydro Quebec has a charging stations network around the metro areas in the province, you get a membership smartcard for 10$, then it's a 2.50$ per charge flat rate no matter if you leave it plugged in 2 hours or overnight.

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That's 46kWh at the .0541 rate. How many amps can the station hump out?

Imagecraft compiler user

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Kartman wrote:
The 10 is probably the kA rating. This is the maximum interruptible current. Any more and the breaker will melt.
10000 amps is the maximum it can interrupt. And Square D is the brand name.

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bobgardner wrote:
Lets settle this. When was Doc's house built? What time period was Steve talking about.
When I was young most houses had fuses. Circuit breakers are a modern invention. They often had knob and tube wiring too. I've still never seen less than 15 amp circuits.

http://www.pillarposthomeinspect...

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bobgardner wrote:
That's 46kWh at the .0541 rate. How many amps can the station hump out?

Look at the attached pic. The Level 1 chargers are the small ones you can get installed at home on a 120v circuit. The public ones are either Level 2 240v (which you can also get installed at home for around 3K$) or CHAdeMO (400V DC fast charger; I think those are mostly for the city buses, around 25% of which are fully electric). All chargers have the same rate.

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UK approximately £0.15 per KWh

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OK, interesting discussion about EV chargers. Mr Erihani: we see lots of enthusiastic electronicsdesigners/programmers start a project without any up front design. They go right to processor selection... not based on how much ram and rom and io their project will need, but on what type of avr their buddy used, even if it doesn't have an a/d or a uart or something else they need. You have talked about wire size, three phase, inverter. You can buy these things of course, but maybe you have an idea/feature that none of the commercial units have , other than costing half as much. You also mentioned ARB/AWG, pwm, and some other stuff that maybe you don't need to build a three phase inverter. So if you just post the numbers: how many volts, amps, watts, controls, etc, you might get some suggestions from some guys with 20 or 30 years of design background.

Imagecraft compiler user

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bobgardner wrote:
So if you just post the numbers: how many volts, amps, watts, controls, etc, you might get some suggestions from some guys with 20 or 30 years of design background.

Thank you Bob for your help.
The inverter is 2200VA and the control of PWM gates is sinewave pwm which I think is DDS. Current is 20 amps as freaks here said it will not exceed that amount. Voltage is 110 VAC.
Parts:
Mosfet: FDPF045N10A
Gate driver: I think I would not need that so I used a high speed optocoupler H11N1SR2M
uc: Not sure what to use(Atmel/NXP/TI), probably Atmel's ARM M3 but I think TI might win because of expansion of the project and TI's available kits for power line communication.

First of all, I am trying to make a sinewave with H-Bridge using the above mosfets. That seems routine but I am not sure of the problems I will face. The project is a part of smart grid platform supported by different fundings and I need to make a prototype for the my supervisor to test the control strategies to reduce the fluctuations caused by the renewable energy sources(PV,WIND,etc).

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Disclaimer: I've never done what you are attempting to do.

That said:

Quote:
Gate driver: I think I would not need that
That catches my attention.

There are quite a few prior Threads that have discussed H-Bridge circuitry, and it seems that in many cases the discussion boils down to the rather large gate capacitance of the power Mosfets, and the high, albeit transient, currents to turn the gates On and Off.

It seems that often the conclusion is that it is much easier to purchase an H-Bridge driver IC which is designed for this very purpose, than it is to design and debug one's own design from scratch. Design errors tend to be catastrophic errors at the voltages and currents you are discussing.

I'll just throw that thought out there.

Others with real world experience might either agree or say an opto driving a 20 A power MosFet will be fine.

JC

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DocJC wrote:
Disclaimer: I've never done what you are attempting to do.

That said:

Quote:
Gate driver: I think I would not need that
That catches my attention.

There are quite a few prior Threads that have discussed H-Bridge circuitry, and it seems that in many cases the discussion boils down to the rather large gate capacitance of the power Mosfets, and the high, albeit transient, currents to turn the gates On and Off.

It seems that often the conclusion is that it is much easier to purchase an H-Bridge driver IC which is designed for this very purpose, than it is to design and debug one's own design from scratch. Design errors tend to be catastrophic errors at the voltages and currents you are discussing.

I'll just throw that thought out there.

Others with real world experience might either agree or say an opto driving a 20 A power MosFet will be fine.

JC


A sinewave of 60Hz has period of 16.7e-3. If i want to have 256 pwm cycles at each period, the period of pwm is 16.67e-3/256 which is 65us. Considering pulse width of 1% of period, the pulse would go up and down in 651ns. So considering the capacitance of the the mosfet(attached), do I still need a gate driver?

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I don't know the answer to your question.
If I did, I'd tell you.

I just wanted to raise the question, and be sure that you'd thought long and hard about this aspect of your design.

Perhaps some Power MosFet guru's will assist.

JC

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DocJC wrote:
I don't know the answer to your question.
If I did, I'd tell you.

I just wanted to raise the question, and be sure that you'd thought long and hard about this aspect of your design.

Perhaps some Power MosFet guru's will assist.

JC

Thanks. That is a good point you mentioned. I try to google and see if I can learn what to do.

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So far I it looks like a 120V 60Hz sinewave inverter capable of 20 amps and about 2400 VA. I'm an audio guy and recently I dled the schematics for a crown ce4000 amp that has about these specs. Its all opamps an mosfets. No gate driver ICs, and there is a Great Deal of current sensing and fault sensing, but it might be interesting to stare at for a while.

Imagecraft compiler user

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bobgardner wrote:
So far I it looks like a 120V 60Hz sinewave inverter capable of 20 amps and about 2400 VA. I'm an audio guy and recently I dled the schematics for a crown ce4000 amp that has about these specs. Its all opamps an mosfets. No gate driver ICs, and there is a Great Deal of current sensing and fault sensing, but it might be interesting to stare at for a while.

That sounds intersting. Is that what you mean?
http://forum.speakerplans.com/up...

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That looks like 1 page of about 20. They show the triangle wave generators and comparators that drive the gates and the LC circuits on the hbridge outputs. Since its an amp, there isn't a sinewave generator in it, but if you run a sinewave into it, out comes a couple of KW about +-100 peak to peak. You want +-170V peak to peak (120V RMS), or 340V on the bridge, and one side goes up and the other down, so the output sort of floats at 170V. I have no idea how they keep these things from roasting you if you grab a speaker wire.

Imagecraft compiler user

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Microchip have some app notes on inverters that might give some insights on the h bridge drive.

Alternately, get yourself a pv inverter and modify it to suit your needs. It will be cheaper than building your own.

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