mr805newbie 
I'm checking out an example in a book I'm reading and I have a question regarding initialization.
DDRB |= 1<<2|1<<3;//Declare as outputs
From what I've read the
|=
What I don't understand is why use:
1<<2|1<<3
Won't both of these conditions
1<<2
1<<3
If they are always true why not simply declare DDRB using the following:
DDRB = 1;
Thanks for any help.
clawson 
And to answer you specific question:
DDRB |= 1<<2|1<<3;
1<<2 is 0x04 and 1<<3 is 0x08.
0x04 OR 0x08 is 0x0C
|= takes the existing contents and OR's the new value
Let's assume DDRB already held 0xF1 before this operation (bits7 to 4 and 1 are set).
DDRB |= 0x0C;
is therefore
DDRB = 0xF1 | 0x0C;
which is
DDRB = 0xFD;
So nowt only are bits 7 to 4 and 1 set but bits 2 and 3 are set too. That is the significance of the <<2 and <<3 in the original values.
Koshchi Won't both of these conditions
Quote:1<<2
and
Quote:1<<3
always be true?
1<<2 || 1<<3
then you would have been correct.
theusch 
Also, do you remember the relative precedences of your operators |, >>, and << ? I don't; therefore I put each phrase in parentheses.
DDRB |= (1<<2) | (1<<3);//Declare as outputs
Simonetta You are experiencing a common problem that is a result of a structural defect in the C language. C is a low level language with high level data structures. C uses symbols in the same manner that math equations do. However that is completely different from how natural language uses symbols. This problem results in people writing source code as complex math formulas instead of sentences. C also has the problem that its symbols can be placed anywhere in the source line and usually -something- will compile. Some natural languages share this and others don't. English does, and most of the other European languages don't. You can put any word unchanged anywhere into an English sentence and it will be grammarically correct.
C allows source lines to be absurdly complex, which defeats the wholde purpose of source code. It is a defect in the language. What this line of code does is set bits 2 and 3 while leaving the other bits of the data entity unchanged.
A serious advanced programming language would allow you to write in your source code " Set bits 2 and 3 of ddrb" It would compile correctly instead of forcing you to use weird quasi -mate expressions. Source code is not a mate equation: it's a list of instruction to a machine. C forces you to write code as math expressions, which is why C sucks. As you are begging to find out.
clawson
You can put any word unchanged anywhere into an English sentence and it will be grammatically correct.
BTW did you have a nasty experience with a C compiler as a child? There has to be SOME reason it's almost certainly the most popular programming language on planet earth?
Koshchi You are experiencing a common problem that is a result of a structural defect in the C language. C is a low level language with high level data structures. C uses symbols in the same manner that math equations do. However that is completely different from how natural language uses symbols.
You can put any word unchanged anywhere into an English sentence and it will be grammatically correct.
Simonetta I used Turbo C on the PC in the 1990-1995 era. I was able to make a few highly interactive, useful, and focused programs. I've learned C and and have come to appreciate its strengths and beauties. But I've had nothing but bad luck and hair-wrenching frustration when using C (that is the free GCC complier) on the AVR. I suspected at first that it might be because of the insane so-called optimizer that destroys the code that you write, and instead substitutes code that it thinks that you wanted to write. Having been able to learn AVR assembler with an ICE200 in-circuit emulator, I simply don't see the need or any advantage to use C on any platform as limited as an AVR microcontroller.
For me, a most difficult aspect about C is its assumption that a binary logic condition
(TRUE and FALSE) is the same thing as a numeric value (zero and not-zero). Then so-called
advanced C users invoke this mistaken equivalence throughout their code, even in hidden ways
where the user has to have an advanced knowledge of the underlying inner structure of the C
language in order to understand what is happening. For example, sending a text string to
an output with getchar. Something like: do while c=getchar(infile) printchar(c); This
assumes that the string ends with a byte value of 00. Assumes that the function will return
the value FALSE when it processes a data unit equal to zero.
The absolute most irritating aspect about C is the way that students are taught that the
more cryptic and difficult the code is to understand, the more 'elegant' and professional it is.
This is self-defeating and crazy. The clearer a language is in its ability to communicate
complex activities, the better it is. So while you can use x|=1<<2|1<<3 to set bits 2 and 3
in variable X, it would be more advanced in cyborg-human linguistics to use "set bits 2 and 3 in X"
to do the same thing. Because it is more understandable and the user doesn't need to know the
details of the computing machine's structure.
As for as English, I should have said that English is one of the only languages in the world where
any word can be any part of speech (a noun, a verb, adjective, or adverb) unchanged in a sentence and its
meaning will depend on its position in the sentence. C is like this: almost anything will compile.
Computer languages reflect the native spoken language of the people who design them. PASCAL, developed
by native German speakers, is very structured while C, written by native English speakers, is free form.
So I remain steadfast in my conclusion that C sucks.
...The absolute most irritating aspect about C is the way that students are taught that the more cryptic and difficult the code is to understand, the more 'elegant' and professional it is...
tubecut Keep in mind the OP question seems to
spawn from his reading of a book.
So, that may explain his assumptions and questions. The OP might not even have access
to programming tools and perhaps hardware to test.
from OP:
I'm checking out an example in a book I'm reading and I have a question regarding initialization.
Also, I just don't think C sucks :roll:
It has been around for a long time and from what I can tell, it is still the most popular language for embedded control projects based on micro's (?).
bobgardner All the 'procedural' languages like c fortran pascal and basic are about the same. They all have an if then else, a loop that tests at the top, a loop that tests at the bottom, about the same math and logic operators (but maybe different symbols). The syntax of setting and resetting bits in a byte in a register by using the shift operator is SUPPOSED to make program maintenance easier by expressing the bit names that are set and reset rather than their 'bit mask'. If you want to set bit 3 from the right in the uart register, you sort of know that that is the same as ORing whats in the port with 8, which is 1 << 3, and if bit 3 (c dudes always start counting at 0) is the UART READY bit, that is readable and understandable by the carbon based units. But it is also 3 levels deep in abstraction. PORTX = 0x69 is very understandable if you have the data sheet open in front of you and can look up every bit. 6 months from now you will forget what the bits in each position do, and might start liking the 1 << 3 notation.
Koshchi C is like this: almost anything will compile.
Something like: do while c=getchar(infile) printchar(c);
For me, a most difficult aspect about C is its assumption that a binary logic condition (TRUE and FALSE) is the same thing as a numeric value (zero and not-zero).
Having been able to learn AVR assembler with an ICE200 in-circuit emulator, I simply don't see the need or any advantage to use C on any platform as limited as an AVR microcontroller.
But above all, you have failed to show anything to support your original statement that C is somehow "defective".
abcminiuser 
Anyway, back on topic. mr805newbie - you're already showing a great ability to question *why* things work and why we do them rather than just copy-paste learning, which is absolutely commendable. Keep that up, don't ever be satisfied until you understand how it all works.
In your specific case, the C language has two types of "OR" operator, one that operates on all the bits and produces a single bit output if any of the bits in either expression are 1:
0b00000000 || 0b000000001 (result TRUE) 0b00000001 || 0b000000001 (result TRUE) 0b11111000 || 0b100000001 (result TRUE) 0b00000000 || 0b000000000 (result FALSE)
This is called the "logic" OR operator, and is used to produce standard true/false boolean logic. There's also a second OR operator called the "bitwise" OR, which performs a logical OR on each bit of the two elements in the expression:
0b00000000 | 0b00000001 (result 0b00000001) 0b00000001 | 0b00000001 (result 0b00000001) 0b10001111 | 0b10000001 (result 0b10001111)
This is the version used in the code sample you are confused about - the code is bitwise ORing the individual bits to get a final mask, and not just checking if any of the bits in the expression are set.
- Dean :twisted:
mr805newbie Thank you everyone. I truly appreciate the information and opinions.
I also found this which supports what is being explained here.
I'm sure this won't be the last time I post, but thank you for the great community support.
theusch
There has to be SOME reason it's almost certainly the most popular programming language on planet earth?
First, the metrics as in the pointless debates over the most popular/most used AVR C compiler brand:
-- Most lines of code? Or number of programmers?
-- Most applications? Or most programmed CPUs?
clawson
-- Most lines of code? Or number of programmers?
-- Most applications? Or most programmed CPUs?
I'm going with all four. Now how does one find evidence to back this?
(oh an do I include C++ under the "C" umbrella - I'll keep that in reserve if the other figures look borderline ;-))
JohanEkdahl 
oh an do I include C++ under the "C" umbrella
What's next? Java under the Smalltalk umbrella? COBOL under Fortran? :wink:
mr805newbie Is it safe to word this functionality like so?
In order to "always" initiate a byte with the same value, for example "1" (independent of memory, flash state, brown outs and blackouts) the following method is used. This will guarantee the "OR" from the following initialization:
DDRB |= 1<<2|1<<3;
IS ALWAYS:
0x04 OR 0x08 is 0x0C
0000 0001 */shift LEFT two places 0000 0100 */shifted left two places 0000 0001 */shift LEFT 3 places 0000 1000 */shifted left 3 places 0000 0100 */shifted left two places 0000 1000 */shifted left three places 0000 1100 */OR'd together is decmal-10, hex- C */hence, DDRB = 0x0C */can also be written DDRB= 0000 1100 *// can it ???
theusch
Is it safe to word this functionality like so?
For some reason, many posters on this site have a love affair with |=. There must be a sale on "|" in full-reel quantities.
JohanEkdahl There must be a sale on "|" in full-reel quantities.
(Sorry - it was irresistible..)
theusch
(Sorry - it was irresistible..)
Even a wider part search gives no hits:
http://www.findchips.com/avail?p...|
http://octopart.com/partsearch#s...|
Those operators must be made of unobtanium.
I don't know what "independent of memory" means, but for an advanced topic OP could really be confused if the target I/O register is TIFRn. (Hint: the results can be different depending on the original contents, and = and |= may not give the same results.)
ChaunceyGardiner Seeing how your program is stored in flash, there is no way to guarantee anything independent of flash state.
mr805newbie Gotcha, Next step: Take a look at how the compiler converts this into assembly.
Please forgive me if my head explodes and I abandon this thread.
OK, religion aside - why don't people just write
DDRB = 0x0C; instead of this weird DDRB |= 1<<2|1<<3;
I'm missing something
valusoft 
And you are doubling up on the same question so I will lock this thread.
https://www.avrfreaks.net/forum/w...
Moderator.
