WWVB receiver

Log in or register to post comments
Go To Last Post
25 posts / 0 new
Author
Message
ki0bk
ki0bk's picture
Level: Raving Lunatic
Joined: Mon. Sep 8, 2014
Posts: 8424 View posts
Location: Olathe KS
#1
Posted by ki0bk: Tue. Oct 27, 2020 - 07:54 PM
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Total votes: 0

Hey guys, I've been playing with a WWVB clock receiver and so far have not been able to correctly receive the time code.

I'm ~500mi as the crow flies from Ft Collins so I would think I should be able to receive day or night, although night should be better.

 

I have two of the receivers, one with the long stick loop, and one with the short stick loop antenna, both have fairly short leads to the receiver board.

Has anyone here tried one of these with success?

If so which sketch did you use?   I've tried 3 or 4 I've found on github, but so far no dice.

 

Jim

edit: https://www.amazon.com/CANADUINO...

this is the short stick receiver I have, the long stick is similar and I think is made by the same company.

This topic has a solution.

 

(Possum Lodge oath) Quando omni flunkus, moritati.

"I thought growing old would take longer"

 

Tags:

Tools, Arduino, solved, WWVB, EverSet Technologies, MSF, DCF77, Canada
Last Edited: Thu. Oct 29, 2020 - 12:57 AM
Top
gchapman
gchapman's picture
Level: 10k+ Postman
Joined: Tue. Jan 9, 2007
Posts: 13214 View posts
Location: Clay County, Texas, u.S.A.
Posted by gchapman: Tue. Oct 27, 2020 - 08:18 PM
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Total votes: 0

Atomic Clock Receiver 60kHz, 77.5kHz for North America, Europe, Japan | UNIVERSAL-SOLDER

 

IIRC, EverSet has EMI suppression.

 

edit :

The New Atomic Clock Signal | EverSet®

 

 

"Dare to be naïve." - Buckminster Fuller

Last Edited: Tue. Oct 27, 2020 - 08:22 PM
Top
ki0bk
ki0bk's picture
Level: Raving Lunatic
Joined: Mon. Sep 8, 2014
Posts: 8424 View posts
Location: Olathe KS
Posted by ki0bk: Tue. Oct 27, 2020 - 08:22 PM
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Total votes: 0

Yea I have two of the Universal-Solder receivers.

edit: but they are not the everset rcvr's!   Thanks for the heads up.

 

Jim

 

 

(Possum Lodge oath) Quando omni flunkus, moritati.

"I thought growing old would take longer"

 

Last Edited: Tue. Oct 27, 2020 - 08:45 PM
Top
steve17
steve17's picture
Level: Raving Lunatic
Joined: Tue. Sep 7, 2004
Posts: 6704 View posts
Location: New York State
Posted by steve17: Tue. Oct 27, 2020 - 09:33 PM
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Total votes: 0

I guess you know those antennas are directional and have to be oriented correctly, broadside facing Fort Collins, approximately.  RF noise might prevent it from getting a signal.  

 

I have a LaCross "atomic" clock.  It gets the signal most nights.  It starts looking at midnight, assuming it knows the time of day.  I'm in New York state. 

 

Mine is sitting on a shelf just above my monitors.  I don't know it it can get the signal if my monitors and computer are on, but midnight is usually past my bedtime.

Top
meslomp
meslomp's picture
Level: Raving Lunatic
Joined: Wed. May 2, 2007
Posts: 6301 View posts
Location: Nieuwegein, Netherlands
Posted by meslomp: Wed. Oct 28, 2020 - 07:03 AM
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Total votes: 0

did you have to actually solder the 32KHz xtal? and how did you bend the legs? I know that these crystals are a very fragile thing and thus accidentally you could have damaged them.

If you have a scope you can try to see if they are running. If they are and are about 32KHz ( your scope will give them an offset due to the changing of the load capacitance ) if they are not running that could be the problem.

 

I would have expected them to mount the crystal and fix it to the board with a kit glue.

 

Also from what I see on the description is that the antenna seems to be very directional and you need to keep it at right angle from the clock source.

Top
gchapman
gchapman's picture
Level: 10k+ Postman
Joined: Tue. Jan 9, 2007
Posts: 13214 View posts
Location: Clay County, Texas, u.S.A.
This reply has been marked as the solution. 
Posted by gchapman: Wed. Oct 28, 2020 - 11:00 AM (Reply to #4)
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Total votes: 0

steve17 wrote:
I don't know it it can get the signal if my monitors and computer are on, ...
Have became aware that video monitor horizontal frequency has increased.

steve17 wrote:
... but midnight is usually past my bedtime.
smiley

 

Help with WWVB Radio Controlled Clocks | NIST

[2/3 page]

What to Do When They Don't Work

...

My clock doesn't synchronize at all

...

  • Locate the clock at least 1 or 2 meters away from any computer monitors, which can cause interference (some monitors have a scan frequency at or near the WWVB carrier frequency of 60 kHz).

...

 

"Dare to be naïve." - Buckminster Fuller

Top
ki0bk
ki0bk's picture
Level: Raving Lunatic
Joined: Mon. Sep 8, 2014
Posts: 8424 View posts
Location: Olathe KS
Posted by ki0bk: Wed. Oct 28, 2020 - 12:50 PM
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Total votes: 0

meslomp wrote:
did you have to actually solder the 32KHz xtal?

Actually its a 60kHz xtal, the receiver can be used for other similar services that operate on other frequencies(different xtal is supplied) in other parts of the world, there is a cut out in the pcb so the leads do not need to be bent, but just tack soldered to the board.   The receiver seems to work, and I can see the data with a scope, but it is just noisy enough to not sync.  

I have had the antenna taped to a NW facing window, but at my location it should be oriented more westerly.

I'll try extending the antenna leads and tape it to a west facing wall and see if that helps.  BTW I have a radio clock on the South facing wall in the same room that syncs just fine. 

I was curious if anyone else had tried a similar project and what program or sketch they used.    Thanks for all the suggestions, I'll keep at it until it works.

 

Jim

 

 

(Possum Lodge oath) Quando omni flunkus, moritati.

"I thought growing old would take longer"

 

Last Edited: Wed. Oct 28, 2020 - 12:51 PM
Top
avrcandies
avrcandies's picture
Level: Raving Lunatic
Joined: Wed. Jun 30, 2004
Posts: 6252 View posts
Location: Cincinnati Oh
Posted by avrcandies: Wed. Oct 28, 2020 - 03:49 PM
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Total votes: 0

Try dialing 1-303-499-7111 (yes, no fake)...I used to call WWV all the time & listen to it.

When in the dark remember-the future looks brighter than ever.   I look forward to being able to predict the future!

Top
ka7ehk
ka7ehk's picture
Level: 10k+ Postman
Joined: Fri. Nov 22, 2002
Posts: 21821 View posts
Location: Tangent, OR, USA
Posted by ka7ehk: Wed. Oct 28, 2020 - 07:57 PM
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Total votes: 0

What "tunes" the receive frequency on those boards in the first message?

 

Never mind. Reading more reveals crystal. That board is really strange. I don't even see any smt pads! Must be the back side with the source logo.

 

Jim

 

Until Black Lives Matter, we do not have "All Lives Matter"!

 

 

Last Edited: Wed. Oct 28, 2020 - 08:14 PM
Top
ron_sutherland
ron_sutherland's picture
Level: Resident
Joined: Mon. Nov 12, 2018
Posts: 776 View posts
Location: Tempe, AZ, USA
Posted by ron_sutherland: Wed. Oct 28, 2020 - 07:59 PM
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Total votes: 0

avrcandies wrote:
I used to call WWV all the time & listen to it.

 

Hello

Is John Wall there?

Are any Walls there?

Hmm... What is holding up the roof?

my projects: https://github.com/epccs

Top
ki0bk
ki0bk's picture
Level: Raving Lunatic
Joined: Mon. Sep 8, 2014
Posts: 8424 View posts
Location: Olathe KS
Posted by ki0bk: Wed. Oct 28, 2020 - 08:31 PM
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Total votes: 0

 

ka7ehk wrote:

What "tunes" the receive frequency on those boards in the first message?

 

Never mind. Reading more reveals crystal. That board is really strange. I don't even see any smt pads! Must be the back side with the source logo.

 

Jim

Yea, you order the board with what freq. you want and they supply the xtal for that freq.  I think there is only two or three to choose from.

Here is the back side of the board with all the goodies:

Jim

 

 

(Possum Lodge oath) Quando omni flunkus, moritati.

"I thought growing old would take longer"

 

Last Edited: Wed. Oct 28, 2020 - 08:33 PM
Top
ka7ehk
ka7ehk's picture
Level: 10k+ Postman
Joined: Fri. Nov 22, 2002
Posts: 21821 View posts
Location: Tangent, OR, USA
Posted by ka7ehk: Wed. Oct 28, 2020 - 08:34 PM
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Total votes: 0

I want to hear how you make out with those things. I have an upcoming precision clock calibration requirement.

 

Jim

 

Until Black Lives Matter, we do not have "All Lives Matter"!

 

 

Top
ki0bk
ki0bk's picture
Level: Raving Lunatic
Joined: Mon. Sep 8, 2014
Posts: 8424 View posts
Location: Olathe KS
Posted by ki0bk: Thu. Oct 29, 2020 - 12:57 AM
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Total votes: 1

Wooho! It works!

i found a usb extension cable so I could place the receiver about half way across the room on top my book shelf and it started working. So the key was getting it off the work bench away from the monitor and computer stuff with the antenna rod pointed N/S so it is broadside to Ft Collins now.

 

thanks everyone for your help.

 

jim

 

 

(Possum Lodge oath) Quando omni flunkus, moritati.

"I thought growing old would take longer"

 

Top
ka7ehk
ka7ehk's picture
Level: 10k+ Postman
Joined: Fri. Nov 22, 2002
Posts: 21821 View posts
Location: Tangent, OR, USA
Posted by ka7ehk: Thu. Oct 29, 2020 - 05:37 AM
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Total votes: 0

How far do you have to separate it? Is a reference signal derived from the received decoding (such as 1PPS) available?

 

Thanks

West Coast Jim

 

Until Black Lives Matter, we do not have "All Lives Matter"!

 

 

Top
Bronze Markdavid.prentice
david.prentice's picture
Level: 10k+ Postman
Joined: Sat. Feb 12, 2005
Posts: 30469 View posts
Location: Wormshill, England
Posted by david.prentice: Thu. Oct 29, 2020 - 07:48 AM
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Total votes: 0

What software do you use? In my experience you will never get perfect reception of every data packet.
I suggest that you free run a regular quartz timer. When you receive a packet, check integrity thoroughly before using it to synchronise your quartz.
.
I am pretty sure that kitchen clocks work this way. It is too expensive to run the radio 24 hours. Sleep long and wake up periodically to check for a good signal.
.
David.

Last Edited: Thu. Oct 29, 2020 - 11:02 AM
Top
scdoubleu
scdoubleu's picture
Level: Hangaround
Joined: Wed. Nov 7, 2007
Posts: 178 View posts
Location: Leicestershire, UK
Posted by scdoubleu: Thu. Oct 29, 2020 - 10:53 AM
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Total votes: 0

I've used one of those modules (Universal Solder Canaduino) with the UK's MSF time signal. They're ok for setting the time, but there's a lot of jitter (10s of mS) on the output compared to a receiver I liberated years ago from an old alarm clock.

 

Steve

Maverick Embedded Technologies Ltd. Home of Maven and wAVR.

Maven: WiFi ARM Cortex-M Debugger/Programmer

wAVR: WiFi AVR ISP/PDI/uPDI Programmer

https://www.maverick-embedded.co...

Top
gchapman
gchapman's picture
Level: 10k+ Postman
Joined: Tue. Jan 9, 2007
Posts: 13214 View posts
Location: Clay County, Texas, u.S.A.
Posted by gchapman: Thu. Oct 29, 2020 - 11:16 AM (Reply to #3)
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Total votes: 0

EverSet PCBA are being restocked.

EverSet ES100-MOD WWVB BPSK Phase Modulation Receiver Module

...

NOTE: Single orders of this product can ship immediately. Orders of multiple items can have shipping delays of some days due to the ongoing test of 3000+ receiver modules.

...

edit 7-Nov'20 :

Orders including these modules can be delayed by 1-3 days due to the complex test procedure. 

 

"Dare to be naïve." - Buckminster Fuller

Last Edited: Sat. Nov 7, 2020 - 06:04 PM
Top
ki0bk
ki0bk's picture
Level: Raving Lunatic
Joined: Mon. Sep 8, 2014
Posts: 8424 View posts
Location: Olathe KS
Posted by ki0bk: Thu. Oct 29, 2020 - 12:40 PM
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Total votes: 0

david.prentice wrote:
What software do you use? In my experience you will never get perfect reception of every data packet.

No I have been a ham long enough to know RF is not reliable, and did not expect to find perfect reception, the current sketch I'm running now runs a software clock timed off the 16MHz resonator on the UNO, and updates it when ever a good radio packet is received.   Last night when it all started working the data was near perfect, I checked it again this morning, and it was hit or miss on the data.  I'll do some more research this weekend when I can watch it during the day. 

I have another sketch that uses a RT clock module from sparkfun and it updates it when ever a good packet is received, if needed.  I'll switch to it later this weekend as it also has an LED display support in it.

Thanks guys, it has been fun.

 

Jim

 

 

(Possum Lodge oath) Quando omni flunkus, moritati.

"I thought growing old would take longer"

 

Top
gchapman
gchapman's picture
Level: 10k+ Postman
Joined: Tue. Jan 9, 2007
Posts: 13214 View posts
Location: Clay County, Texas, u.S.A.
Posted by gchapman: Thu. Oct 29, 2020 - 02:33 PM (Reply to #16)
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Total votes: 0

scdoubleu wrote:
... but there's a lot of jitter (10s of mS) on the output compared to a receiver I liberated years ago from an old alarm clock.
A few orders of magnitude better synchronization by a dsPIC :

(PDF) Inexpensive SDR-based longwave radio controlled clock for time dissemination in industrial wireless sensor networks

...

In particular, the DCF77 transmitter is located close to Frankfurt/Main and it is managed by the Physikalisch Technische Bundesanstalt (PTB). Its transmission range is on the order of 2000 km, thus the LF signal covers most of central Europe. Interesting to notice, it uses both amplitude and phase modulation for maximizing time accuracy. For all these reasons, it has been considered as the reference time standard in this work.

...

 

CONCLUSIONS

[next to last sentence]

Experimental tests, carried out using a synthetic time reference signal, highlights that the use of phase modulation allows for an overall synchronization error on the order of tens of microseconds, despite the reduced available bandwidth.

...

 

"Dare to be naïve." - Buckminster Fuller

Top
ki0bk
ki0bk's picture
Level: Raving Lunatic
Joined: Mon. Sep 8, 2014
Posts: 8424 View posts
Location: Olathe KS
Posted by ki0bk: Thu. Oct 29, 2020 - 02:48 PM
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Total votes: 0

ka7ehk wrote:
Is a reference signal derived from the received decoding (such as 1PPS) available?

The WWVB signal codes the date/time info into BCD digits that take one minute to send, each digit is one second long PWM, so you may be able to derive a pulse output on the rising edge of each bit, not sure how well that would work for you.  The simple receiver used here works from the AM modulation (PWM), but the station also send phase modulation as well, and may provide better recovery under margin conditions over AM mode.

Attached is the NIST doc about the coding, I'll let you decide if it will work for you.

A GPS module may be a better solution and most have PPS output.

 

Attachment(s): 

PDF icon 105432.pdf

 

(Possum Lodge oath) Quando omni flunkus, moritati.

"I thought growing old would take longer"

 

Top
ka7ehk
ka7ehk's picture
Level: 10k+ Postman
Joined: Fri. Nov 22, 2002
Posts: 21821 View posts
Location: Tangent, OR, USA
Posted by ka7ehk: Thu. Oct 29, 2020 - 04:34 PM
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Total votes: 0

Will have to think about how to use something like that in my application. I need to time fairly long intervals (on the order of 24 hours). Phase jitter of 10s of milliseconds is not a big deal. Its the delta time over that long interval that is important (I think). Had a clock that used WWVB here (about 1200 mi from Ft. Collins) and it worked fine at night, most of the time. 

 

Jim

 

Until Black Lives Matter, we do not have "All Lives Matter"!

 

 

Top
ki0bk
ki0bk's picture
Level: Raving Lunatic
Joined: Mon. Sep 8, 2014
Posts: 8424 View posts
Location: Olathe KS
Posted by ki0bk: Thu. Oct 29, 2020 - 04:41 PM
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Total votes: 0

ka7ehk wrote:
Its the delta time over that long interval that is important

Then that may work for you, as the main clock of an uno is not that accurate, but by sync'ing with the radio, seems to hold time well, comparing with the voice announcements from WWV.

I'll update with what I find this weekend, that will give a few days to drift and sync a few times.

 

Jim

 

 

(Possum Lodge oath) Quando omni flunkus, moritati.

"I thought growing old would take longer"

 

Top
Bronze Markdavid.prentice
david.prentice's picture
Level: 10k+ Postman
Joined: Sat. Feb 12, 2005
Posts: 30469 View posts
Location: Wormshill, England
Posted by david.prentice: Thu. Oct 29, 2020 - 04:49 PM
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Total votes: 1

Genuine Unos are crap.   They use a ceramic resonator.

Most clone Unos use a proper HF XTAL.

 

If you are only interested in a 24 hour delta the HF XTAL will give you 50ppm accuracy.

For long term accuracy i.e. over weeks, months and years you need something better e.g. sync with WWV, MSF, DCF77 or just the internet.

 

David.

Top
gchapman
gchapman's picture
Level: 10k+ Postman
Joined: Tue. Jan 9, 2007
Posts: 13214 View posts
Location: Clay County, Texas, u.S.A.
Posted by gchapman: Fri. Nov 27, 2020 - 01:44 PM (Reply to #17)
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Total votes: 0

in 24-Nov'20 e-mail :

...

That means 25% discount on everything for all orders placed on November 27 and 28.

Most products can be backordered (like raincheck) if stock is not sufficient, and ship separately as soon as possible.

UNIVERSAL-SOLDER Electronics Ltd – Simply. Smarter. Electronics.

 

"Dare to be naïve." - Buckminster Fuller

Top
joeymorin
joeymorin's picture
Level: 10k+ Postman
Joined: Tue. Jul 17, 2012
Posts: 12051 View posts
Location: Location, Location
Posted by joeymorin: Fri. Nov 27, 2020 - 10:40 PM
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Total votes: 0

These pages tracks the status of the WWVB transmitter:

https://www.nist.gov/pml/time-and-frequency-division/radio-stations/wwvb/wwvb-station-outages

https://www.nist.gov/pml/time-and-frequency-division/radio-stations/radio-station-wwvb/wwvb-antenna-configuration-and

"Experience is what enables you to recognise a mistake the second time you make it."

"Good judgement comes from experience.  Experience comes from bad judgement."

"Wisdom is always wont to arrive late, and to be a little approximate on first possession."

"When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not unicorns."

"Fast.  Cheap.  Good.  Pick two."

"We see a lot of arses on handlebars around here." - [J Ekdahl]

 

Top