DB101 - The Butterfly's big brother

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Atmel just announced a new small AVR board in the style of the Butterfly, but bigger and meaner:
- Mega1281
- 128x65 graphical LCD
- Battery powered (short lifetime, though)

http://www.atmel.com/dyn/products/tools_card.asp?family_id=607&family_name=AVR+8-Bit+RISC+&tool_id=4221

Dean (abcminiuser) has a Review on his blog: http://fourwalledcubicle.com/blog/archives/43

I have not found any information about pricing and availability. At least digikey does not have the part yet.

Markus

Markus

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Yes, it's playing-time again :)

Nard

A GIF is worth a thousend words   They are called Rosa, Sylvia, Tessa and Tina, You can find them https://www.linuxmint.com/

Dragon broken ? http://aplomb.nl/TechStuff/Dragon/Dragon.html for how-to-fix tips

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Usual post, usual reason ;-)

(OK, I know this isn't the FIRST traffic about the DB101 but, still, we can live in hope)

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Well, just in case...

Perhaps it is time for a new t-shirt deal ;)

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Oh, yeah ! I didn't thought about T-shirts, what an oversight ! Me too !

Markus

Markus

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I was thinking about 'buy an avrfreaks tshirt and get a db101 for free' kind of things.

Edit: They should call it dragonfly or something.. DB101 doesn't sound so interesting compared to butterfly or dragon :)

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Don't know about your country but here DB has quite an "interesting" meaning. (also known as the "Mutt's Nuts" ;))

This thing certainly sounds like "the dogs ..." !

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Quote:

I have not found any information about pricing and availability.

AFAIK Atmel has not announced any pricing on this thing yet. With the exception of Deans prototype its still "vapourware".

As of January 15, 2018, Site fix-up work has begun! Now do your part and report any bugs or deficiencies here

No guarantees, but if we don't report problems they won't get much of  a chance to be fixed! Details/discussions at link given just above.

 

"Some questions have no answers."[C Baird] "There comes a point where the spoon-feeding has to stop and the independent thinking has to start." [C Lawson] "There are always ways to disagree, without being disagreeable."[E Weddington] "Words represent concepts. Use the wrong words, communicate the wrong concept." [J Morin] "Persistence only goes so far if you set yourself up for failure." [Kartman]

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I like Dragonfly, sounds meaner than Butterfly and is a real name. CountZero, you should depose a trademark and trade it with Atmel for a sample :-).

Johan, I hope you are planning for a 'carrier' like the ones for the Butterfly !

Markus

P.S. DB101 sounds like a train to me (DB=Deutsche Bahn). We get some of those venturing south over the border into Switzerland.

Markus

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Quote:

Johan, I hope you are planning for a 'carrier' like the ones for the Butterfly !

Huh? A mix-up here? I have not been involved in any Butterfly carrier boards.

Anyhow, I am not planning anything for a DB101 until I have one near me, or at least know where to buy and what the price will be.

As of January 15, 2018, Site fix-up work has begun! Now do your part and report any bugs or deficiencies here

No guarantees, but if we don't report problems they won't get much of  a chance to be fixed! Details/discussions at link given just above.

 

"Some questions have no answers."[C Baird] "There comes a point where the spoon-feeding has to stop and the independent thinking has to start." [C Lawson] "There are always ways to disagree, without being disagreeable."[E Weddington] "Words represent concepts. Use the wrong words, communicate the wrong concept." [J Morin] "Persistence only goes so far if you set yourself up for failure." [Kartman]

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Cliff, That one I had to google :)

Here in Sweden we don't usually associate (as far as I know anyway) any parts of dogs with positive things :)

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Oh, :oops:, my brain is mixed up ! Should have been Smiley, but he is still silent for now.

Markus (hiding under his desk...)

Markus

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The DB101 sounds like a great alternative to the Butterfly. Though, the Butterfly is a spiffy little machine.

I'm wondering if the cost will be below $50.00, Maybe Atmel got the graphic displays by the millions and at a really good price break.

But then too, $20.00 would be a terrific price but, well, it's a fantasy...

It would be nice to see some hard data on what this thing really is.

You can avoid reality, for a while.  But you can't avoid the consequences of reality! - C.W. Livingston

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Quote:
Usual post, usual reason
Yes, it looks cool, guess this time I need to post also :D
/Lars

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For a product just announced, withotu date and price the documentation is quite decent:
Software Users Guide: http://www.atmel.com/dyn/resources/prod_documents/doc8094.pdf
Hardware Users Guide: http://www.atmel.com/dyn/resources/prod_documents/doc8073.pdf

It looks like there will be a nice set of libraries to drive the features of the card in C. The type of compiler used is not mentioned, though.

I like it too that they list the unused ports upfront. With the butterfly I felt always uneasy using ports I was not sure they were used for something else because I misread the schematics.

Markus

Markus

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DB ... Deutsche Bahn indeed ... my first brainwave was Daimler Benz :)

A GIF is worth a thousend words   They are called Rosa, Sylvia, Tessa and Tina, You can find them https://www.linuxmint.com/

Dragon broken ? http://aplomb.nl/TechStuff/Dragon/Dragon.html for how-to-fix tips

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Quote:
It looks like there will be a nice set of libraries to drive the features of the card in C. The type of compiler used is not mentioned, though.

Software for IAR is available already (the disc icon):
http://www.atmel.com/dyn/products/tools_card.asp?family_id=607&family_name=AVR+8-Bit+RISC+&tool_id=4221
/Lars

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Nice! let's hope the price will be nice too... The LCD looks interesting as well, with both a serial and a parallel interface.

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Well, at least it doesn't look like AVR (by Another Vapourware Release). That would be fantastic for me two years before. I hope at least the price would be interesting, since graphic LCD (by the probable amount Atmel would buy) are not this expensive. 30€ would be really nice.

Guillem.

EDIT: DB101 sounds like powerful speaker? 101 dB huh?

Guillem.
"Common sense is the least common of the senses" Anonymous.

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Quote:
DB101

Sounds more like a really big connector :)

edit:
Dean is probably thinking "BigButtLoad" about now :roll:

Last Edited: Mon. Sep 24, 2007 - 02:15 PM
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Unlike the Dragon debugger, the DB101 even has a parts list.

It's a shame Atmel wont make the Dragon parts list available.

You can avoid reality, for a while.  But you can't avoid the consequences of reality! - C.W. Livingston

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COOOOL toy... Very droolable.

Oh...the LCD! It's so huge!

There are pointy haired bald people.
Time flies when you have a bad prescaler selected.

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DB = Dragon Bite :idea:

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Looks like a great entry point for experiments with graphics displays.

/Carsten L

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I'm not sure when the official price will be announced, but the number I got privately and can't repeat (sorry) was too high to interest me. You might be able to get a price from your Atmel sales rep.

Smiley

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Actually the meaning of "DB" is quite mundane: Display Board

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[when I saw that there was an EW post at the end of the thread, I eagerly opened it anticipating pricing and availability info ... ]

:(

Lee

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

I've never met a pig I didn't like, as long as you have some salt and pepper.

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smileymicros wrote:
I'm not sure when the official price will be announced, but the number I got privately and can't repeat (sorry) was too high to interest me.

Smiley

The Butterfly is $24, the DB101 is at least twice as good, so at least $50 :-).

It my well be that it is closer to $100, what makes it too expensive to just fool around.

It's probably plain stupid to discuss like this, we all will know in due time.

Markus

Markus

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See, that's the reaction I had to the name, too! "That's one bigazz plug there!"

But yeah, I saw Dean's review and immediately hit the Atmel site. Thar she ar! Then I went to Digikey and... nuthin'. Same with Mouser. Aaaah, Dean, you're killing me! It's like a kid who's got an in with a toy company flashing next year's coolest toy and saying, "Prototype... don't you wish you had one?" Waaah!

Seriously, that looks cool. I can't wait to play. Cripes, if the price is right that could make a number of my own vaporware projects way WAY more doable. (Of course that would mean I'd have to get off my butt and do them, too... Hmmm...)

Tom

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Just found the display for my 'next generation, all the performance for almost nothing' frequency standard.
(depending on whether the contrast is better or worse what Dean's photos)

Kasper

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I took a quick look at the hardware PDF. The first thing I notice was the lack of expansion headers on the front. More reading shows that the expansion is predominantly serial on the back. I also noticed that the clock is an external Xtal optimized for serial coms. I have not looked to see how easy this is to access and overclock. MIDI coms work best with an even cristal, 4,8,16MHz. The 8K Sram does solve a few issues. Ideally one would like 32K for buffering SD and other media type applications.

Still it looks like fun ...

-julie

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Quote:

Just found the display for my 'next generation, all the performance for almost nothing' frequency standard.
(depending on whether the contrast is better or worse what Dean's photos)

I'll try to take some higher quality ones tomorrow. The contrast is adjustable, from barely readable to pitch black - nothing to complain about. My prototype's missing the RGB backlight, but I'd say that would make it even nicer to read.

Quote:

The first thing I notice was the lack of expansion headers on the front.

There are through-hole connectors for all communication interfaces along both the bottom and the sides of the board. Only the side ones have pin-headers mounted, so if you wanted to make a "master" board for this to slot into you could arrange the pin headers on your bottom board, place the DB101 over it then solder the pin headers to the top of the DB101.

Again, I'll take better photos tomorrow.

- Dean :twisted:

Make Atmel Studio better with my free extensions. Open source and feedback welcome!

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Yep, I'm in again.

Ken

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Quote:
Looks like a great entry point for experiments with graphics displays.

I've been wanting to play with graphic displays for a while, but never gotten around to buying one. I would buy this in a heartbeat.

Regards,
Steve A.

The Board helps those that help themselves.

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Well, I found that this beast, also really susceptible to be used as Human Machine Interface, it lacks of conectivity. With this amount of pins that the uC has, only few are available, thus not many ampliations possible. OTOH, the level translators for all serial ports makes the thingie really interesting for this kind of issue, altough prevission for RS-485 and RS-232, even without phisical connection, would be a nice thingie.

Guillem.

Guillem.
"Common sense is the least common of the senses" Anonymous.

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I took a look at some datasheets for the LCD, and I didn't found any information about contrast ratio on them. Also DisplayTech have few different LCD sizes for 64 x 128 and RGB backlight, and I couldn't find the one used at DB101, just to compare to the LCD that I'm using in my current products.

Anyway, this tool can lead to many interesting tools (graphic datalogger, mini osciloscope probe, logic analyzer, TWI/SPI/USART analyzer) for hobbysts.

Guillem.

Guillem.
"Common sense is the least common of the senses" Anonymous.

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Ok, I managed to quickly snap a few high-resolution shots. Still a little shaky as I couldn't find the tripod for the camera (will have a look tomorrow as I originally planned) but it does give a lot more detail than my original cruddy shots.

Check out the pictures at: http://www.fourwalledcubicle.com...

Quote:

it lacks of conectivity.

The board's designed to be the interface to another, master board. It has I2C, SPI and USART communication channels already set up, which you can use to transfer UI information back to your main controller board. Still, you could always hang a few SPI or I2C port expanders off of it.

Having both logic and RS232 level serial is very nice, handy for both AVR and computer needs.

After MyUSB, I'll be re-writing the drivers for GCC I think - the code's only for IAR. Mucho fun to be had!

- Dean :twisted:

EDIT: Can't wait to see my site bandwidth graph tomorrow... ;)

Make Atmel Studio better with my free extensions. Open source and feedback welcome!

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Guillem Planisi wrote:
Well, at least it doesn't look like AVR (by Another Vapourware Release).

Hey Guillem, I own the copyright on that phrase! :lol:

Anyway, the board looks interesting, but I'm curious about the lack of expansion capability (i.e. ports).

Jim

Your message here - reasonable rates.

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DB can denote "database" so DB101 is a freshman course in database technology. You need a lot of resources to put SQL Server on uC! :P

C: i = "told you so";

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well you can get MySQL for arm9 linux targets, maybe also for the AVR32 linux distro. :)

/safari

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JimW52 wrote:
Anyway, the board looks interesting, but I'm curious about the lack of expansion capability (i.e. ports).

Et least compared to the butterfly I see no lack of ports. There is a list of 7 unused ports in the documentation and those are all brought to headers. If you need more, but don't need SPI, UART, etc you can always use those as well.

Yes, 7 ports is not much for a M128, but it is designed for graphics (DB=DisplayBoard), not I/O. You can always hang off a second AVR over SPI is you need more I/O.

Markus

Markus

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theusch wrote:
[when I saw that there was an EW post at the end of the thread, I eagerly opened it anticipating pricing and availability info ... ]

:(

Lee

Oh, I'm sorry Lee. In general, I try not to get to involved in pricing and availability. I've already got a lot on my plate rather than trying to keep track of that stuff.

... But I just did some checking around and the DB101 is launched, its on the website, so it should be available "real soon".

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Well, Markus, for a M128(1) and a graphical display, it could had more ports. Of course, there is always the possibility to use SPI/TWI/USART to increase theyr capabilites. I told that because I had developed another system with M128 and graphic LCD, USART, SPI, TWI and I still had more pins available, but, of course, I didn't had three PWM outputs for the backlight (it is always on), or two different SPI, or trhee analog inputs to measure batt voltage, current and external voltage.

Anyway, thanks to Dean for theyr posted pictures, that seem that this LCD has a pretty good contrast and readability even under flash light conditions. The whole board looks promising for many tools.

Perhaps for the future project that I would probably start at the beggining of next year, it could be helpful.

Guillem.

Guillem.
"Common sense is the least common of the senses" Anonymous.

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Quote:

Well, Markus, for a M128(1) and a graphical display, it could had more ports.

A glance at the schematic showed that nearly all the pins are "used up"--connected to the display, joystick, and other circuitry; brought out to the communications; or going to mysterious N.M. J102-J108.

Aaah--not so mysterious anymore after looking at Dean's pictures--those come to marked through-holes.

So J102-J108 is 7 pins, plus "spare" communications pins. The rest are used up.

Lee

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

I've never met a pig I didn't like, as long as you have some salt and pepper.

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Guillem Planisi wrote:
Well, Markus, for a M128(1) and a graphical display, it could had more ports.

It's alway a compromise. And as is happens with compromises you'll design for the minimum unhappiness of your customer base. You estimate what your target customer set needs and you design for that population.

What I fear is that the design will have too many unnecessary toys for the professionals (rgb backlight, etc), but be too expensive for the hobbyists. I can personally live well with the limited amount of ports, but not with an high price. This is true for many of us. If I need many ports I'll have to design a complete circuit around it anyway, so the DB101 is not useful option.

Markus

Markus

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Quote:

This is true for many of us.

Yes, the attraction will be if it has a "low ball" price like the Butterfly or USBkey--a price that we could not build them for that in low quantity.

Lessee--roughly, a $10 AVR and $25 LCD (Optrex F-51852), $2 joystick, $3 dataflash, $2 regulator, $3 battery/holder, 100 parts at $0.10 (mounted) = $10, circuit board $1. About $50-$60.

My guess: $100. [We could have a pool. I'll guess DigiKey qty. 1 listed at US$97.99. Hmmm--need a prize. How about closest without going over gets a slain Dragon? ;) ]

Lee

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

I've never met a pig I didn't like, as long as you have some salt and pepper.

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Lee,

But isn't your pricing based on one-off pricing? Surely things like the $10 AVR and $3 Dataflash will be more like $4 and $1 at "cost" price in quantity. If it's anything like the Butterfly then it seems they sell those at cost price as a "loss leader" to get more folks interested in the product range. So I'm going for $49.99 based (roughly) on your costing.

Cliff

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Quote:

But isn't your pricing based on one-off pricing? Surely things like the $10 AVR and $3 Dataflash will be more like $4 and $1 at "cost" price in quantity. If it's anything like the Butterfly then it seems they sell those at cost price as a "loss leader" to get more folks interested in the product range. So I'm going for $49.99 based (roughly) on your costing.

Correct about the one-off: It will be attractive to use if it is priced >>less<< that I could build one or a few of an equivalent device. If it is >>not<< priced at that "cost" price then it is not very attractive, as per the discussion compromises may be needed to do an app.

[I'm off on my display cost: cut that $25 in half
http://www.radionics.ie/cgi-bin/...@@@@1965719791.1190754076@@@@&BV_EngineID=ccdiaddmdhhhlfmcefeceeldgondhgj.0&cacheID=ienetscape&Nr=avl:ie
]
Lee

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

I've never met a pig I didn't like, as long as you have some salt and pepper.

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ok, so my guess is $34.43 :)

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Yes, that is exactly the way I feel. I've got a couple of butterfly's some of them never taken out of the box because it is cheap and simple to start a small project with them. Most of the time I use only 10% of its capability, but the savings for a custom circuit is not worth the loss in comfort. But if the savings start to approach a reasonable amount (maybe $50) I suddenly start to do a lot of work to avoid the spending. This is even quite rational, my time is more or less 'free' (hobby) and spending is real hard cash, so spending (and even sometime the final result) looses. The result is to 99% my personal satisfaction anyway. Most of the normal people don't see the significance of the microcontroller based lighting of my daughter's toy farm, even if it is the most advanced lighting in the entire house :-).

Markus

P.S. No Butterfly for the lighting app, a tiny is overkill enough...

Markus

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Well, lets see, €12.32 ($17.42) will buy me this 128x64 panel with a KS0108 on the back:

http://ledsee.com/index.php?page...

At the end of the day it seems the DB101 is just a 128x64 panel with an (admittedly slightly more intelligent!) controller on the back but by comparison I guess it can't really be much more than $25. Otherwise why don't I just pay $17.42 for this if I want some pretty pictures? Are the few extra IO and a serial interface to it really worth the $8+ difference. Or to put it another way, why don't I just spend $4 on a mega88 or something and stick that on the back of this LedSee panel to add a bit more intelligence/interfacing options?

Cliff

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CountZero wrote:
ok, so my guess is $34.43 :)

might as well take a position on this...how about US $39.99 at Digikey...wouldn't it be nice to be so cheap they give them away at seminars like the free Dragon and the Butterfly!!!

I probably missed it but does it come with source code in C?

Last Edited: Tue. Sep 25, 2007 - 11:56 PM
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Quote:

I probably missed it but does it come with source code in C?

Yes, IAR-only, which is a shame. And there is *mountains* of it - code for the display, code for the LCD driver, code for the high-level graphics routines, code for the UI widgets, code for the menus, code for the demos....

- Dean :twisted:

Make Atmel Studio better with my free extensions. Open source and feedback welcome!

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abcminiuser wrote:
Quote:

I probably missed it but does it come with source code in C?

Yes, IAR-only, which is a shame. And there is *mountains* of it - code for the display, code for the LCD driver, code for the high-level graphics routines, code for the UI widgets, code for the menus, code for the demos....

- Dean :twisted:

sounds cool Dean... thanks for the quick answer..maybe a CV or Imagecraft port of portions of the code would be worth the time...enjoyed my visit to your site this week!

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From the documentation it looks like the code is nicely structured and modular. Just use the routines you need, much easier than the Butterfly !

It's only a question of time until someone ports the code to gcc. I'd guess general availability +1 month or so. Those open source users are usually quite reactive and like new toys as everybody else ;-).

Markus

Markus

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Quote:

sounds cool Dean... thanks for the quick answer..maybe a CV or Imagecraft port of portions would be worth the time...enjoyed my visit to your site this week!

Cheers!

Yes, ports would be good - I was under the impression that Atmel had moved largely towards GCC code now rather than IAR, in order to open them up to a larger userbase. My version of the code is only a late SVN-dump from Atmel, but there's no mention of GCC.

My SVN dump contains 1.2MB of .c and .h files, 109 of them in total. Just to give a rough indication of just how MUCH source is in this thing.

Of course, the display code could be tightened up (which I'll do for GCC after my current projects) a bit, but since Atmel would have many engineers working on it at the same time, it's no surprise they went for making each feature a completely modularized code unit.

EDIT: And sadly, it seems as though the Atmel SVN server is hidden behind a firewall - no stealing of future board info from me! :lol:

- Dean :twisted:

Make Atmel Studio better with my free extensions. Open source and feedback welcome!

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Quote:

DB101 is just a 128x64 panel with an (admittedly slightly more intelligent!) controller on the back but by comparison I guess it can't really be much more than $25.

???
Quote:
Controller & LCD Driver S6B1713

I'm not familiar with the S6 controller, but I assume it is manageble given the product selection and the drivers from IAR.

So the display itself would be comparable to your noted display; the RS prices are about the same as what you quoted.

Quote:
why don't I just spend $4 on a mega88 or something and stick that on the back of this LedSee panel to add a bit more intelligence/interfacing options?

A very small bit--you are going to have barely enough pins to drive the display. Many fewer than with the DB101 setup.

It is all moot anyway--it will be priced at my predicted $100 or higher anyway and won't be attractive. ;)

Lee

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

I've never met a pig I didn't like, as long as you have some salt and pepper.

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But did they include the Dragon's ever-popular "Die Now, You SOB" touchy underside?

Chuck Baird

"I wish I were dumber so I could be more certain about my opinions. It looks fun." -- Scott Adams

http://www.cbaird.org

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Just a side note: M1281 is only supported by JTAGICE MKII, thus not the best choice for many hobbysts. M128 would fit exactly equal, and it is supported by many JTAGICE MKI clones.

Also, the huge amount of libaries looks like RTOS oriented (at least, that is what suggests me the memory allocation libraries), and M1281, with it's 8KBytes of RAM is really well suited for this.

And Optrex F-51852, B&W transflective, similar to the LCD used, but I bet with much better contrast ration and viewing angle, is quoted to about 14-15€ 1KUnit (not RGB backligh, only white LED, thought). I also bet that tne LCD used is cheaper. Thus all this thing could be sold for 39.99€/unit if they make many of them. Anyway, I still think that it would be priced to about 100$.

Guillem.

Guillem.
"Common sense is the least common of the senses" Anonymous.

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abcminiuser wrote:

Yes, ports would be good - I was under the impression that Atmel had moved largely towards GCC code now rather than IAR, in order to open them up to a larger userbase.

Well, there is movement to use both (IAR and GCC) really. But these things take time. Atmel is a big company.

Atmel is really agnostic when it comes to compilers. Whatever works for the end-user is best.

abcminiuser wrote:

My SVN dump contains 1.2MB of .c and .h files, 109 of them in total. Just to give a rough indication of just how MUCH source is in this thing.

Of course, the display code could be tightened up (which I'll do for GCC after my current projects) a bit, but since Atmel would have many engineers working on it at the same time, it's no surprise they went for making each feature a completely modularized code unit.

It's better software engineering to modularize it like that. It should make it a little bit easier to grok and to find what you're looking for.

abcminiuser wrote:

EDIT: And sadly, it seems as though the Atmel SVN server is hidden behind a firewall

Of course! :lol:

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Well, one day and a good 30 views of the picture set. I had to ask Gussy for a bandwidth upgrade - those pictures are big!

Quote:

It's better software engineering to modularize it like that. It should make it a little bit easier to grok and to find what you're looking for.

Oh yes, but it does result in trillions of redundant functions and more code overall. I'm just used to working alone - ButtLoad is quite compact due to having only myself developing it. MyUSB on the other hand is my first project that is leaning further towards the modular side of things.

Quote:

abcminiuser wrote:

EDIT: And sadly, it seems as though the Atmel SVN server is hidden behind a firewall

Of course! Laughing

Can't blame me for trying ;).

I've just emailed the Atmel engineer that sent me the prototype, asking for a cost/availability estimate. With any luck all shall be reveled soon :).

- Dean :twisted:

Make Atmel Studio better with my free extensions. Open source and feedback welcome!

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abcminiuser wrote:

Oh yes, but it does result in trillions of redundant functions and more code overall.

That sounds like quite an exaggeration...

abcminiuser wrote:

I've just emailed the Atmel engineer that sent me the prototype, asking for a cost/availability estimate. With any luck all shall be reveled soon :).

Who's your contact? (You can email me if you prefer...)

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Quote:

Who's your contact? (You can email me if you prefer...)

Email sent. Nothing mysterious, but since I don't know if it's appropriate to post Atmel employee names and emails to a public message board, I'm erring on the side of caution.

- Dean :twisted:

Make Atmel Studio better with my free extensions. Open source and feedback welcome!

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A response! Feel free to argue over whose estimate was closest ;).

Quote:
Hello Dean,
Yes, i have seen that post, and also i have seen your review. Which was
very good. Thanks for that.
The price is 79$.
The boards are available, order ATAVRDB101 through distributor.
You are hereby granted permission to post this at freaks.

I'll be able to post a review on the final board revision (with backlight) in a week or two when it arrives, so we can all get an idea of the contrast.

Also new is the "Getting Started" AVR483 document Which gives a rundown on creating your own NB101 firmware. I'm sure someone will port the IAR code over to GCC in due time, and I'll eventually be re-writing the drivers to fill in the time, much like I'm doing my MyUSB and the USBKEY.

Steinar also says in his reply that there is also a new battery-backup Atmel reference board that replaces the AVR450, which no one here has found yet: Atmel Entry Here.

- Dean :twisted:

Make Atmel Studio better with my free extensions. Open source and feedback welcome!

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Quote:

Email sent. Nothing mysterious, but since I don't know if it's appropriate to post Atmel employee names and emails to a public message board, I'm erring on the side of caution.

I am sure they appreciate that :-)

Are you going to make "BigGraphicButtLoad" now then Dean? ;-)

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Quote:

I am sure they appreciate that Smile

Are you going to make "BigGraphicButtLoad" now then Dean? Wink

Actually, I was toying with that. It's basically bang on perfect for the job (being a "better" version of the Butterfly" - I could add in all sorts of functionality. The real question is whether anyone will end up using it, as US$79 for it is more than even the Dragon costs, and this would be sans debugging abilities...

- Dean :twisted:

Make Atmel Studio better with my free extensions. Open source and feedback welcome!

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Unfortunately, $79 is too much. With the Butterfly I just 'bought some and find the project later'. The DB101 will need a worthy project first.

What I was not aware of is that you'll need a JTAGICE MKII ($320) to program it. That basically rules out all of us STK500/Dragon/AVRISP users and places the entry point much higher. There is probably a bootloader, though.

Markus

Markus

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Markus,

You don't need a JTAGICEmkII to PROGRAM it, you would need one of those to DEBUG it though.

It can be ISP programmed with an AVRISPmkII or a Dragon (or any cheap and cheerful ISP programmer)

From one of the DB101 manuals:

Quote:
ISP programming can be performed by connecting an ISP enabled AVR programming
tool to the 90 degrees pin header J100. AVR tools like STK500, AVRISP mkII, AVR
Dragon and JTAGICE mkII can be used for this.

BTW after previous Atmel "bargains" the $79 for this doesn't seem that mind blowing really. As I said previously if the idea of this is simply a "display board" that you bolt onto the front of something else then you could put something together to do similar 128x64 display far cheaper. Maybe the intention (and the "grunt" of the 1281) is there so it can be more than a display board but a complete, stand alone entity - but if that's the case why market it as just a DB=Display Board ?

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How about market it as a DB=Development Board then? :wink:

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I bet that all this could be done with an ATmega325(V), for a lower price and Dragon-debuggable, since screen data could be stored in the external DataFlash (1MByte if my memory serves me well). Graphic LCD routines, plus some modbus protocol would fit into it, if screen data (text, languages, menu structure, etc) is stored externally, and the gadget would be more profitable for many people and for less price.

And one has to think that if this is only a terminal, then you need to debug two programs, and probably two different boards/uC. Thus probably you need two JTAG debuggers at once (and better if you have a computer with double screen ;)).

Guillem.

Guillem.
"Common sense is the least common of the senses" Anonymous.

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Considering the price of a NGW100, and whats on that board for the price, $79 for a 1281 is in fact quite expensive !

Author of simavr - Follow me on twitter : @buserror

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Like I said earlier, this is too pricey for me. Several posters estimated the costs and then guessed prices much less than $79. Frankly, I think this could be cloned and sold at a profit for less than $79 which surprises me since historically Atmel has provided development tools at a price that simply cannot be beat.

Does Atmel seem to be increasing its development tools pricing?

Am I missing something?

Smiley

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It seems to me to recall that Atmels CEO had changed recently. Perhaps that is the first point that shows a different policy?

Sorry, but my morale is not too good right now due some policies with certain companies.

Guillem.

Guillem.
"Common sense is the least common of the senses" Anonymous.

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I'm not sure that nonsense has had a chance to trickle down yet. Besides both parties claim they want to emphasize microcontrollers and it seems to me that low cost development tools was mentioned by both as things that have helped the AVR succeed. Anyway, the new ISP programmer and the prices I'm hearing for the STK600 seem to indicate a significant price boost for Atmel, but I haven't been following it too close so I'm not certain.

Smiley

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Quote:

The boards are available, order ATAVRDB101 through distributor.

Attachment(s): 

As of January 15, 2018, Site fix-up work has begun! Now do your part and report any bugs or deficiencies here

No guarantees, but if we don't report problems they won't get much of  a chance to be fixed! Details/discussions at link given just above.

 

"Some questions have no answers."[C Baird] "There comes a point where the spoon-feeding has to stop and the independent thinking has to start." [C Lawson] "There are always ways to disagree, without being disagreeable."[E Weddington] "Words represent concepts. Use the wrong words, communicate the wrong concept." [J Morin] "Persistence only goes so far if you set yourself up for failure." [Kartman]

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$79 :shock: :shock:

maybe someone attending one of the sooner rather than later Atmel seminars in the USA can ask a marketing droid exactly what is the rationale behind this product? then share that with the freaks!
It sounds more like just a reference/demo design to drive demand for a "big" megaAvr (meaning profitable) and a graphic display solution with software provided to speed things up...isn't that what the origional idea behind the Butterfly was--to demo AVR driving lcd solution?

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US$79 is too expensive for something to play around with as a hobbyist, but it might make sense if I happen to need a basic switches + display + IO platform like the DB101 provides at work. The cost to buy a '1281 and have it shipped to me, buy an LCD and have it shipped, spend time designing a PCB, have it made, and spend time assembling it all would well exceed $79.

Michael

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OK, somebody has a clue as to what is going on here?

Quote:

The boards are available, order ATAVRDB101 through distributor.

Attachment(s): 

As of January 15, 2018, Site fix-up work has begun! Now do your part and report any bugs or deficiencies here

No guarantees, but if we don't report problems they won't get much of  a chance to be fixed! Details/discussions at link given just above.

 

"Some questions have no answers."[C Baird] "There comes a point where the spoon-feeding has to stop and the independent thinking has to start." [C Lawson] "There are always ways to disagree, without being disagreeable."[E Weddington] "Words represent concepts. Use the wrong words, communicate the wrong concept." [J Morin] "Persistence only goes so far if you set yourself up for failure." [Kartman]

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:(

Attachment(s): 

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Sorry, I really couldn't resist :D :D I tried ! :D

Author of simavr - Follow me on twitter : @buserror

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Just in time.

For building a test rig I´d have been off to do what mcollas just said:
Buy m128 header board from Olimex, buy graphic LCD, buy switches and use Veroboard to hold it all together. Would have consumed a few hours of the project´s budget, so for one-off designs, this is really great.

Ingo

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I just got this email from my Atmel FAE

Quote:
We have stock in SJO.

Disti's should be able to take orders next week.

official AVR Consultant
www.veruslogic.com

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I can definitely see a use for users who need a better display than the butterfly and don't have the skill/time to spin their own board.

This is also the first time I have seen code that is organized into logical function/files from Atmel on a AVR demo board. My only complaint is that it is IAR as many users don't have this compiler and I don't know if the free edition will compile this amount of code. (I haven't tested but based on the amount of .c and .h files it seems to be quite a bit)

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jbtech wrote:
This is also the first time I have seen code that is organized into logical function/files from Atmel on a AVR demo board. My only complaint is that it is IAR

I like the nice organization of the code very much too. That is is for the IAR compiler may be a temporary drawback, but I sure a gcc version will be available quite soon.

A similar, organized library of code for the Butterfly would be nice, too !

Markus

Markus

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jbtech wrote:
My only complaint is that it is IAR as many users don't have this compiler and I don't know if the free edition will compile this amount of code.
Martin Thomas ported the IAR Butterfly code to gcc. Someone could make a nice project by porting this code.

Smiley

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I just browsed through the DB101 example-code for IAR. Interesting. Porting C-Code made for IAR's toolchain to the GNU avr toolchain is not very difficult. As in my gcc-port of the Butterfly demo-application most of the work will be the adapting the access of "flash-data". With a little preprocessor-"magic" it should even be possible to maintain a common codebase for both IAR and GNU.

If Atmel does not have any plans to publish a gcc-port (Eric?) and nobody else is working on a port (Dean?) I can do the porting. But it's not much fun without real hardware to play and test with (the port would be just a fun/hobby project for me). I first have to find a supplier who does not charge high shipping costs and/or demands a minimum order value higher than the cost of the DB101. If someone knows such a supplier please send me an e-mail.

Martin Thomas
mthomas (at) rhrk (dot) uni-kl (dot) de

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No Martin, no time to do a port at the moment - I don't even have any time to work on MyUSB. In four weeks or so I'll be done with Uni for the year, and I'll have a whole three months off to work on AVR projects. Feel free to do a port yourself, I enjoyed your Butterfly port.

Just got the final production version in my hot little hands. Boy is that backlight bright! I'm glad the included card from the Atmel engineer said to use an external VCC of > 3.5V to enable the backlight - I have been running the pre-production version off my USBKEY's 3.3V VCC rails for convenience and it was *just* short of being able to fire up the backlight on the new board (the board works fine with it, just all the backlight options and functionality is hidden). Attaching it to the Target VCC on my STK500 enabled the backlight settings in the LCD Settings screen, and on the Smokey Graphics demo application.

On the new board the backlight is obvious over the old - the display is about 3 or 4 millimeters thicker off the board than the other non-backlit board.

I've got a Small Signal Transistor lab report to type up tonight, but I quickly snapped a few photos and short videos showing the backlight. Very sorry for the lack of polish on it all - I'll give it a proper photoshoot/video tomorrow if anyone has any requests on what they want to see.

The screen's very readable, especially with the backlight. The video doesn't show that very well - digital cameras have trouble readjusting to the rapidly changing light level shown in one of the videos, and the sheer brightness I had it set to in the others.

New pics/videos: http://www.fourwalledcubicle.com/img/Blog/DB101/Production

EDIT: Holy heck - I'm glad I've got a large monthly bandwidth limit now! Server logs show over 150MB transferred in the last four hours - that's about a quarter of what I normally transfer each month!

- Dean :twisted:

Make Atmel Studio better with my free extensions. Open source and feedback welcome!

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abcminiuser wrote:

EDIT: Holy heck - I'm glad I've got a large monthly bandwidth limit now! Server logs show over 150MB transferred in the last four hours - that's about a quarter of what I normally transfer each month!

- Dean :twisted:

Dean,

Consider posting videos on YouTube and adding a link from your site. Saves hassle and bandwidth and the viewer doesn't have to wait for it to download and then come up on a player.

Smiley

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I must say that the connection through planet Earth is pretty good: I downloaded the avi's @ 400 kiloBYTE per sec ....

Cheers

Nard

A GIF is worth a thousend words   They are called Rosa, Sylvia, Tessa and Tina, You can find them https://www.linuxmint.com/

Dragon broken ? http://aplomb.nl/TechStuff/Dragon/Dragon.html for how-to-fix tips

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Quote:

Dean,

Consider posting videos on YouTube and adding a link from your site. Saves hassle and bandwidth and the viewer doesn't have to wait for it to download and then come up on a player.

Smiley

You can't stream through modern players? I put them up on my site to preserve the quality, but I suppose I could give YouTube versions a go tonight.

Board is impressive, no?

- Dean :twisted:

Make Atmel Studio better with my free extensions. Open source and feedback welcome!

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dean
can you measure the current this board pulls when the backlight is adjusted for "white"..I assume that would be worst case current consumption..thanks

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Quote:

dean
can you measure the current this board pulls when the backlight is adjusted for "white"..I assume that would be worst case current consumption..thanks

Rodger that, I'll give it a go tonight and report back with current consumption at 5V for backlight off, and backlight white.

- Dean :twisted:

Make Atmel Studio better with my free extensions. Open source and feedback welcome!

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mjthomas wrote:
I just browsed through the DB101 example-code for IAR. Interesting. Porting C-Code made for IAR's toolchain to the GNU avr toolchain is not very difficult. As in my gcc-port of the Butterfly demo-application most of the work will be the adapting the access of "flash-data". With a little preprocessor-"magic" it should even be possible to maintain a common codebase for both IAR and GNU.

If Atmel does not have any plans to publish a gcc-port (Eric?) and nobody else is working on a port (Dean?) I can do the porting. But it's not much fun without real hardware to play and test with (the port would be just a fun/hobby project for me). I first have to find a supplier who does not charge high shipping costs and/or demands a minimum order value higher than the cost of the DB101. If someone knows such a supplier please send me an e-mail.

Martin Thomas
mthomas (at) rhrk (dot) uni-kl (dot) de

Hi Martin,

Long time, no hear! :)

There are plans to do a port, even to support both IAR and GCC. But I don't know what the timing is on this. It seems to be slightly in flux. Let me do some checking around.

Eric Weddington

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Hey Dean,

The pics look good....thanks.

Does anyone know if a document has been compiled listing the differences between IAR and GCC ?

It seems the differences should not be that great, making it possible to whip up a conversion utility.

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CirMicro wrote:
Hey Dean,

The pics look good....thanks.

Does anyone know if a document has been compiled listing the differences between IAR and GCC ?

It seems the differences should not be that great, making it possible to whip up a conversion utility.

Yes, in the avr-libc 1.4.6 user manual, online here:
http://www.nongnu.org/avr-libc/u...

That document may not be exhaustive; IIRC, it doesn't cover EEPROM stuff. But it's a start.

That page originally started as some notes that Joerg Wunsch and I wrote down, then given to Eivind (admin of AVR Freaks) for a project, which he re-wrote and posted, then I took them and reworked into the avr-libc documentation.

I have always wanted to put together a converter, to convert code from IAR to GCC. It's not just a simple text replacement. It will require a little bit of smarts to it. To see what I mean, just try converting IAR code that has variables in flash and you'll start to see what I mean. ;)

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Well bugger. I just realised that I uploaded the original, VERY VERY high resolution shots straight from the camera and not the resized versions I created. I can fix that tonight - apologies for those who had to wait a long time for each of the 2MB images to load...

- Dean :twisted:

Make Atmel Studio better with my free extensions. Open source and feedback welcome!

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Quote:
I have always wanted to put together a converter, to convert code from IAR to GCC. It's not just a simple text replacement. It will require a little bit of smarts to it. To see what I mean, just try converting IAR code that has variables in flash and you'll start to see what I mean.

Thanks for the link. Do you know of or have a small IAR program and converted GCC code that could be used for testing?

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Hi Eric,

EW wrote:

Long time, no hear! :)

There are plans to do a port, even to support both IAR and GCC. But I don't know what the timing is on this. It seems to be slightly in flux. Let me do some checking around.

I'm still in the AVR-"game". But currently I spend most of my electronics-work- and -hobby-time on soft- and hardware-developments for controllers with ARM-cores.

It seems that the ATAVRDB101 is currently not listed by the German distributors so it will take some time before I can get one anyway. Please keep us informed about Atmel's plans for an avr-gcc/avr-libc port. I keep my offer to do the porting but it would be a waste of time if the porting will be done twice.

Regards,
Martin Thomas

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CirMicro wrote:
Do you know of or have a small IAR program and converted GCC code that could be used for testing?

Not exactly a small program - but you can get the source-code for the AVR-Butterfly for IAR from Atmel's site and my avr-gcc/avr-libc port of this from my site. I made a few modifications, extensions and bug-fixes so it's not a "pure" port but I did not change too much.
I think the sources cover pretty much of the differences: different functions-names for the same functionality, different methods to define ISRs and the different handling for data stored in flash which is the most significant difference and not just simple s/this/that.

IAR: http://www.atmel.com/dyn/resources/prod_documents/AVRButterfly_application_rev07.zip
avr-gcc/avr-libc: http://www.siwawi.arubi.uni-kl.de/avr_projects/index.html#bf_app

Since not used in the Butterfly-code this does not cover: "forcing" inlineing, but this is similar to the ISR definitions (pragma for IAR, attribute for gcc) and inline-assembler/assembler-files (different ABIs).

I think there is at least one source-package to an AVR AppNote which has code for both compilers too, but currently can not remember the number.

Martin Thomas

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This sure sounds like a great board!
Hope they are not going to be too expensive.

I'm new around here BTW
Just starting out learning about AVR chips.

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Quote:

can you measure the current this board pulls when the backlight is adjusted for "white"..I assume that would be worst case current consumption..thanks

Just done this for you, and they're dead right about it being a power guzzler!

At 5V, no backlight, the consumption is a respectable 6.5mA (while sitting in a menu). Cranking up the backlight to maximum on all RGB channels at maximum intensity yields a power consumption of 105.5mA! Definitely for mains-power apps.

Incidentally, it seems the blue LED is slightly stronger than the others - maximum on all channels gives a slightly aqua colour rather than white. Damn nice board, however.

Working on resizing those images now.

- Dean :twisted:

Make Atmel Studio better with my free extensions. Open source and feedback welcome!

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abcminiuser wrote:
Quote:

can you measure the current this board pulls when the backlight is adjusted for "white"..I assume that would be worst case current consumption..thanks

Just done this for you, and they're dead right about it being a power guzzler!

At 5V, no backlight, the consumption is a respectable 6.5mA (while sitting in a menu). Cranking up the backlight to maximum on all RGB channels at maximum intensity yields a power consumption of 105.5mA! Definitely for mains-power apps.

Incidentally, it seems the blue LED is slightly stronger than the others - maximum on all channels gives a slightly aqua colour rather than white. Damn nice board, however.

Working on resizing those images now.

- Dean :twisted:

heh Dean..thanks for pulling the grid down for me and checking the current consumption...

do you want to know more Freaks? (Starship Troopers)..such is life for Dean the only lucky Freak on the planet with not one but two of these critters!!

interesting display itself from DisplayTech, I noticed it has an easy to use thru hole mount vs a fine pitch smt header...of course the way the $ is getting hammered these days against the Euro everything from that direction is going to be costly...
thanks again....

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Displaytech displays can be bought at RS components, I've seen this RGB backlight type there too. Quite cheap too (~€18).

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jayjay1974 wrote:
Displaytech displays can be bought at RS components, I've seen this RGB backlight type there too. Quite cheap too (~€18).

please excuse my ignorance..I live in a shed out back in the mountains!...is that 1X Euro?

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Oops :)

Eighteen. 18.

:)

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still affordable..thanks

so making a design with this display and using a megaAVR, embed the app code with the display code and providing a small nuclear reactor to run the backlight..one could still make a custom design for about the same cost as the DB101.....

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Quote:
Not exactly a small program - but you can get the source-code for the AVR-Butterfly for IAR from Atmel's site and my avr-gcc/avr-libc port of this from my site. I made a few modifications, extensions and bug-fixes so it's not a "pure" port but I did not change too much.
I think the sources cover pretty much of the differences: different functions-names for the same functionality, different methods to define ISRs and the different handling for data stored in flash which is the most significant difference and not just simple s/this/that.

Thanks Martin,

I think this will do fine. I'll start a new thread in the GCC forum as soon as I have something workable.

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mjthomas wrote:

It seems that the ATAVRDB101 is currently not listed by the German distributors so it will take some time before I can get one anyway. Please keep us informed about Atmel's plans for an avr-gcc/avr-libc port. I keep my offer to do the porting but it would be a waste of time if the porting will be done twice.

Regards,
Martin Thomas

Someone should contact you soon. ;)

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EW wrote:
Someone should contact you soon. ;)

Yes ;)
Thanks.

Martin

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CirMicro wrote:
I'll start a new thread in the GCC forum as soon as I have something workable.

Before you spend too much time with this please contact me by e-mail. We should sync our efforts.

Martin Thomas

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Quote:

heh Dean..thanks for pulling the grid down for me and checking the current consumption...

do you want to know more Freaks? (Starship Troopers)..such is life for Dean the only lucky Freak on the planet with not one but two of these critters!!

No problems. Another user has requested the sleep power consumption, so I'll test that and report back when I get back home tomorrow night.

Seems there's a lot of interest in this - I've already transferred more data from my website yesterday than the whole of August! More than 100 hits on the videos, and a few hundred on the pictures. The smaller versions are up to replace the old ones, so the download times should be saner now ;).

- Dean :twisted:

Make Atmel Studio better with my free extensions. Open source and feedback welcome!

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Consumed bandwidth is now over 900MB, more than any other month since I started my site. Lots of interested people it seems!

The standby current is about 2.6mA, again with a 5V supply. Not sure what would be causing all the draw, but I'd hypothesize it would be mostly due to the on-board switch-mode power supply.

- Dean :twisted:

Make Atmel Studio better with my free extensions. Open source and feedback welcome!

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Dean,

One thing to consider is that some of that bandwidth is being used by robots looking for legitimate and not so legitimate information. If you are bandwidth limited, you might consider putting the videos on YouTube and the pictures on Flickr and providing links.

Smiley

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Smokey,

It's fine now - the initial hammering has slowed down, and my site isn't in danger of going offline any time soon. Thanks to Gussy (Angus) I've still got at least 4 more gigabytes for this month which is plenty, especially at the current rate.

However, if anyone's really dead-set against me using my own server, I could upload to YouTube and Flickr.

- Dean :twisted:

Make Atmel Studio better with my free extensions. Open source and feedback welcome!

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Just wait until you get Slashdotted. ;)

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Quote:

Just wait until you get Slashdotted.

Good god. Slashdot is reponsible for many a melted server. Thankfully a new Atmel board isn't the sort of news people would find worth enough to post, or to vote up ;).

- Dean :twisted:

Make Atmel Studio better with my free extensions. Open source and feedback welcome!

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I like the concept..... I've had a few ideas for simple MIDI projects at home, that a butterfly doesn't have enough display ability to handle, but would be otherwise fine. I like the idea that I could basically skip any hardware prototyping/testing, and just make the project. and for US$20 a pop for the butterfly, that would be awesome.

However, for US$79, it's going to be a bit more of a sell... Touchscreen functionality would have sold me on it.

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The fist release of the DB101 source-code (library and example-application) ported for avr-gcc/avr-libc is now available at
http://www.siwawi.arubi.uni-kl.de/avr_projects/#db101_app

Indeed I tried to create a "multi compiler" source by adding a "compiler abstraction layer" (some macros) and modified the source to use the "CAL". So the source code can be compiled with both the IAR and GNU toolset - at least this is the idea, so far I only tested with GNU (avr-gcc/avr-libc) since I do not have access to IAR EWAVR. I don't know if all this is needed since Atmel provides the sources for IAR but it maybe easier to integrate extensions or fix bugs on a common codebase or backport improvements only available for the original IAR source to the gcc-port.

Enjoy. Feedback welcome.

Martin Thomas

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Downloading and trying now, Martin. Fantastic work - that was fast!

Have you tested the code running on the real hardware?

EDIT: I see you have. Works great!

- Dean :twisted:

Make Atmel Studio better with my free extensions. Open source and feedback welcome!

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Great Martin!

What's the different between the two hex code sizes, from IAR and from GCC? I can not help to know it but I am not in office these days to run your porting! :-)

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bbear wrote:
What's the different between the two hex code sizes, from IAR and from GCC? I can not help to know it but I am not in office these days to run your porting! :-)

"hex-code" file-size is not a good base to compare code-sizes. It's better to compare the sizes of the load-image in "raw" binary-format.

I do not have the IAR tools to create a load-file for a comparison. A "memory-dump" of the factory installed firmware with removed "tailing 0xff" could be used for the comparison but don't know if the preinstalled firmware is based on the published source-code.

Also currently the options to remove unused code with the GNU tools is not enabled in my setup and so not tested (-ffunction-sections, -fdata-sections, gc-sections option for linker and linker-script which takes this into account). I expect that there are some functions from the "driver libraries" which are not used. I don't know how the IAR tools handle this by default or how the IAR workspace for the example-software is configured.

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Some preliminary results for the sizes.
Method: read the flash with avrdude in raw binary format. File-sizes for the
- preinstalled demo application, probably created with EWAVR toolset: 59606 bytes
- demo application build with gcc 4.2.1 (WinAVR 5/07) based on the published source without "unused code removal" -Os: 67578 bytes
- same but with gcc4 "unused code removal": 58420 bytes
The sizes from the gcc-"memdumps" match the output from avr-size after the build-process which indicates that the method should be correct. Don't know if the preinstalled application is based on the source-code currently available from atmel.com which has been used to create the gcc-port.

Martin Thomas

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Note that there are also some other optimization switches that could be used, besides the ones that Martin mentions.

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I think most are interested in the ball-park figures and not necessarily how to make it "smallest" (Compiler Wars here we come).

I'd say the summary is that the code is pretty clean as the port was done in a quite timely fashion, and it ain't small--filling a 64k AVR.

Lee

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

I've never met a pig I didn't like, as long as you have some salt and pepper.

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Quote:

I'd say the summary is that the code is pretty clean as the port was done in a quite timely fashion, and it ain't small--filling a 64k AVR.

As an experiment I compiled the ported code with AVR-GCC 4.2, and got 67630. Adding -ffunction-sections and -mcall-prologues cut that down to 65440 bytes, which is JUST under the limit for a 64KB AVR. Seems Atmel could have saved a few bucks on the controller if they'd used GCC ;).

- Dean :twisted:

PS: Compiler wars in 3, 2, 1...

Make Atmel Studio better with my free extensions. Open source and feedback welcome!

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Hi Dean,

Technically -ffunction-sections, by itself, won't do anything for you unless you also use -Wl,-gc-sections. But you still won't gain anything unless there are truly unused functions in the application, which, if it was written correctly, there shouldn't be in the first place.

I would also suggest you use try -combine -fwhole-program, but you'll have to change the Makefile to put all of the .c files on a single avr-gcc command line, with both compile and linker flags, set the output to be the ELF file, and remove the following link step. These flags tell GCC to combine all of the source code modules, and that the result is the whole program so this triggers cross-module optimization. CAVEAT! These flags have not been used much on AVR applications. I have had 1 or 2 reports of errors when doing this, but I've also had a couple of reports (and an experiment myself) that it worked. Test the resulting application thoroughly to make sure nothing broke, especially ISRs.

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Just a few remarks on the previous messages:

theusch wrote:
I think most are interested in the ball-park figures and not necessarily how to make it "smallest" (Compiler Wars here we come).

Yes, I too have only been interested if "Compiler A" can produce a load-image which has roughly the same size as the one created with "Compiler B". And if not: what are the technical reasons. It's not my intention to provide "ammunition" for a "compiler war".
Comparing code-sizes is just one criterion. There are a lot more. To name a few others:
- Handling/user-friendliness of to toolset (setup, development-environment, configuration)
- Special extensions for a Target (for AVR 8-bit esp. reading from "progmem/flash")
- technical support
- price
But AFAIK this all has already been discussed numerous times in other forum threads.
abcminiuser wrote:

As an experiment I compiled the ported code with AVR-GCC 4.2, and got 67630. Adding -ffunction-sections and -mcall-prologues cut that down to 65440 bytes

As Eric already mentioned: -ffunction-section just lets the compiler "prepare" the object-code for the unused code removal. It's the linker which finally throws the unused function-sections away when the --gc-sections option is given. Thanks for mentioning -mcall-prologues, I forgot about it.
EW wrote:
Technically -ffunction-sections, by itself, won't do anything for you unless you also use -Wl,-gc-sections. But you still won't gain anything unless there are truly unused functions in the application, which, if it was written correctly, there shouldn't be in the first place.

It's not that unusual that there are unused functions even in "correctly" written applications. Source code for device-drivers often offers functions which are not always needed. To stay a little bit on topic: for example Atmel provides a set of drivers for the DB101 hardware in the DB101 software-package. Not all of the functions provided in the driver source-codes are used by the demo-application but might be useful for own applications. The traditional method to avoid unused machine-code in a load-image is a "real" library with one object per function. On source-level a set of #ifdef FEATUREX_EN / #endif might be used. But with an unused code removal feature this additional work is no longer needed. In my opinion it's still a correctly written application. In the end it's just a internal operation and the user does not really care if for example a LCD-library provides a draw_circle function which is never used and thrown away by the unused code removal or if it's not linked since it's in a own object file of a "real" library/object-archive.

Martin Thomas

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Posting to keep informed....

Jeff Dombach, JLD Systems
"We do the stuff behind the buttons!"
Your source for embedded solutions with a 100% Guarantee.
http://www.jldsystems.com
Phone 717.892.1100

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There's a button on the top right to subscribe to this thread ('watch this topic for replies', the little clock button) :)

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mjthomas wrote:

EW wrote:
Technically -ffunction-sections, by itself, won't do anything for you unless you also use -Wl,-gc-sections. But you still won't gain anything unless there are truly unused functions in the application, which, if it was written correctly, there shouldn't be in the first place.

It's not that unusual that there are unused functions even in "correctly" written applications. Source code for device-drivers often offers functions which are not always needed. To stay a little bit on topic: for example Atmel provides a set of drivers for the DB101 hardware in the DB101 software-package. Not all of the functions provided in the driver source-codes are used by the demo-application but might be useful for own applications. The traditional method to avoid unused machine-code in a load-image is a "real" library with one object per function.

I agree with you completely. This code should be reworked into a true library.

I even wrote up a section in the avr-libc user manual on how to do this:
http://www.nongnu.org/avr-libc/u...

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It seems that the 4-Oct quote from Atmel about availability "next week" should perhaps have read "next month" ... since we're working on the third week since then! ;)

I guess patience isn't entirely my thing!

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Neat! I just got around to testing the ANSI escape codes with the DB101's firmware terminal, and they work a treat. I can now set the text to inverse mode or underlined, as well as set the background colour of the screen. Of course, the background colour change sequences cause the entire backlight to change in colour, but it makes for a nice interface alert.

I've got my MyUSB library sending the escape sequences to colour the backlight according to the system status (ready = white, USB sleeping = yellow, USB active = green, error = red) as well as selectively printing inverse text to emphasize it.

If anyone wants the escape code header I've written, I've attached it to this post. They're standard ANSI terminal escape sequences, and I've included the full set rather than just the ones the DB101 support.

- Dean :twisted:

Attachment(s): 

Make Atmel Studio better with my free extensions. Open source and feedback welcome!

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I am going to break my newbie/lurker silence and link to:

https://www.avrfreaks.net/modules...

in case anyone in the thread missed it.

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I've already ordered mine.

Regards,
Steve A.

The Board helps those that help themselves.

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Quote:
I've already ordered mine.

And I, this morning. No confirmation, though.

Chuck Baird

"I wish I were dumber so I could be more certain about my opinions. It looks fun." -- Scott Adams

http://www.cbaird.org

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I'm in.

Smiley

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Hi

To order this DB101 unit, do you guys just pay out $39.00 straight out?

Is there any currency conversion required?

Ken

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You have to pay by paypal, using your credit card.

Btw, I've ordered two on friday, but still dont have a confirmation.

Felipe Maimon

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@pykedgew

Yeah there will be at the PayPal end of things but at the moment the US$ is so weak we are closing in on parity witht he Aussie.

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PayPal? Oh, no.
I would desperately like to have one too.
But due to security reasons I don't use PayPal.
Any hint about a dealer in Europe, esp. in Germany?
Would appreciate.

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I can't refuse a bargain so I bought one. I don't know why they apologize for not having a backlight. Why I'd want a device that depletes the battery in ten minutes when I could get one that will run for twenty minutes escapes me. :)

The thing that concerns me is the mega1281. I don't know how much different it is from the 169/329/649 chips I use. I know it doesn't have built-in LCD support. That's not the problem. I'm wondering how much work it would be to port over my code for such things as timers, usart and ADC.

On the plus side, I've always wanted to program a computer with a 17 bit address bus. I wonder how they do that. Probably concatenate two 8.5 bit registers. :)

Last Edited: Sun. Nov 4, 2007 - 02:22 PM
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HKarls wrote:
PayPal? Oh, no.
I would desperately like to have one too.
But due to security reasons I don't use PayPal.

Is there a security reason to not use PayPal? I have a second bank account that I give to PayPal. I don't put a lot of money in that account. I figure that should limit any losses due to theft.

My alternative to using PayPal is to use a credit card. I think it's more secure to use PayPal than to give my credit card number to internet vendors.

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HKarls wrote:
PayPal? Oh, no.
I would desperately like to have one too.
But due to security reasons I don't use PayPal.
Any hint about a dealer in Europe, esp. in Germany?
Would appreciate.

What security reasons?

PayPal is as safe as any alternative.

Smiley

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Hello Steve and Smily,

I prefer to pay in cash or by transfer to a bank account in order to avoid any risk. That's all about it.

Greetings
HKarls

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I have some objections to paypal, but security as a buyer is not one of them.

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@Dingo aus

Quote:
US$ is so weak we are closing in on parity with the Aussie

Agreed.
I forgot that our exchange rate is pretty good at the moment.

Ken

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So has anyone else got a confirmation email yet? I haven't heard back anything yet?

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Zilch

Ken

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Just ordered today :-)

/Bingo

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Hi guys,
the orders are being taken care of tomorrow. So you should get your response tomorrow or friday. That's what I heard. So far, there are 69 orders, and several of them are for multiple units. This means some of you may become disappointed...:-(

Regards;
Eivind

*** Eivind, webmaster ***

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eivind wrote:
Hi guys,
the orders are being taken care of tomorrow. So you should get your response tomorrow or friday. That's what I heard. So far, there are 69 orders, and several of them are for multiple units. This means some of you may become disappointed...:-(

Regards;
Eivind

Does that mean that some will not get any ?? , or that some of the multiple orders will be reduced in numbers (i hope the last) ??

/Bingo

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I will gladly reduce my order to one so someone else can have one if you don't have enough.

Jeff

Jeff Dombach, JLD Systems
"We do the stuff behind the buttons!"
Your source for embedded solutions with a 100% Guarantee.
http://www.jldsystems.com
Phone 717.892.1100

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Surely the allocation strategy should be:

(On the first come first served basis): work down the order list in the order that the orders arrived and assign ONE item to each customer. If end of list reached and stock still available, then go back to start and assign a second one to each person that ordered more than one - repeat ad infinitum until stock exhausted.

Or can anyone think of a fairer allocation strategy?

Cliff

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Cliff,

Your suggestion seems to be the most fair way to go, though I also would understand the "if you snooze, you lose" first-come/first-serve strategy.

But, since I was a snoozer and only seriously thought about it a few days after I saw the notice, I hope they will use your recommended strategy!!!

I delayed because the price they set was right at my limit and I had to think about it for a while. If it had been $10 less I would not have had to think about it and I would have just ordered immediately. If the price were $10 higher I probably would not have ordered one.

-Tony

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If they really ARE all spoken for, the page still up on the front of the website and the linked order page should be updated to avoid future disappointments.

Also, like mentioned, it does say limited quantities and there was also a limit per person.

Disclaimer: I ordered on Friday. 8)

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I know Atmel are great guys and I know products like the NGW100 already target the tinkerer end of the market but it would be nice if Atmel did regular little runs of discounted new models of products through AVR freaks.

As a way of fostering quick adoption of products in an open environment who will play with them and then post the results here for all to see and want to go and buy more of the product.

Even if it is only 100 units at $5 off or something, it would be cheap marketing and make us all feel like Atmel loves us :)

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Dingo,

Eivind or Kim in the avrfreaks.net forum already said that the new version of this site would be getting a "web shop" in the new year - hopefully that'll be offering some attractive pricing (though I guess Atmel risk p-offing their distributors like Arrow and Digikey if they were to start under-cutting them!)

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I got the pay request mail just now. I don't know what the allocation strategy is since I only needed one.
/Lars

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I also did get a pay request today , it seems that Atmel have had enough , as i got several approved.
Hope everybody has gotten at least one on their initial order.
Else i would be willing to give one up , provided i get the postage covered.

/Bingo

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One question I neglected to ask: when will these arrive? Or at least, when and how will they ship? My payment doesn't seem to have been collected yet, so my theory is that they will do that, then ship (from Norway?) a week after they issued the payment requests (mine had a "Please pay within a week" note).

Of course it'd be nicer to see this sooner. :)

Last Edited: Sat. Nov 10, 2007 - 05:32 AM
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Quote:

One question I neglected to ask: when will these arrive? Or at least, when and how will they ship?

mojo might be too new to remember the great fun tracking the DHL shipments of the first Dragons.
https://www.avrfreaks.net/index.p...

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

I've never met a pig I didn't like, as long as you have some salt and pepper.

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Yep I got an email requesting payment.

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Received the email and the payment request. Money already gone from the bank account...Is that the sound of the delivery van in the next street ?? :roll:

Ross McKenzie ValuSoft Melbourne Australia

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Quote:

Is that the sound of the delivery van in the next street ?? Rolling Eyes

No, garbage truck.

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

I've never met a pig I didn't like, as long as you have some salt and pepper.

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theusch wrote:
Quote:

Is that the sound of the delivery van in the next street ?? Rolling Eyes

No, garbage truck.

...and I bet you tell the 3 year olds that there is no Santa! :cry:

Ross McKenzie ValuSoft Melbourne Australia

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Hi

Received email request & paid for it.
Done by credit card facility on Paypal.
1st time in using PayPal. :)

Ken

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I hope I didn't mess things up... I didn't read the instructions carefully:

Quote:

Order yours by sending an email to: db101@avrfreaks.net.
Make sure you include the following:
- your Paypal-valid email address
- the number of units you want (max.10)

A PayPal money request will be sent you, and the units are shipped when your payment is confirmed.

I just sent the payment via paypal to the db101@avrfreaks.net address.

Was that the payment address provided in the PayPal money request they send you?

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@jayelbee - you should receive an email with a link to the Paypal site where the right address is already pre-populated for you.

I think it was sales@avrfreaks.net or something.

Did you receive an email requesting payment? The process and correct details should be in that email.

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Is there any new information about the DB101?
Is it in sale?
What price?

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Is there any new information about the DB101?
Is it in sale?
What price?

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Is it too late to order the DB101 to only $39?

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@sveinutne

Quote:
Is it too late to order the DB101 to only $39?

Have you sent an email to order at db101@avrfreaks.net
No harm in trying, either they will say in stock or out of stock.

Ken

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Quote:
Did you receive an email requesting payment? The process and correct details should be in that email.

No email from db101@avrfreaks.net. The email from paypal says my payment has only been initiated and the payment will be completed once the recipient has accepted the payment.

I'll email db101@avrfreaks.net ask if they will accept the order as I send it.

My fault for not reading carefully.

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pykedgew wrote:
@sveinutne

Quote:
Is it too late to order the DB101 to only $39?

Have you sent an email to order at db101@avrfreaks.net
No harm in trying, either they will say in stock or out of stock.

Ken


Yes, I have ordered DB101 yesterday, but no email in return yet.

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steve17 wrote:
I can't refuse a bargain so I bought one. I don't know why they apologize for not having a backlight. Why I'd want a device that depletes the battery in ten minutes when I could get one that will run for twenty minutes escapes me. :)

The thing that concerns me is the mega1281. I don't know how much different it is from the 169/329/649 chips I use. I know it doesn't have built-in LCD support. That's not the problem. I'm wondering how much work it would be to port over my code for such things as timers, usart and ADC.

On the plus side, I've always wanted to program a computer with a 17 bit address bus. I wonder how they do that. Probably concatenate two 8.5 bit registers. :)

16 bit for addressing will be OK, because the AVR are using 16 bit(word 2 byte) between each address points.
So with 64K you can address 64K words or 128K bytes.
Svein

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mjthomas wrote:
With a little preprocessor-"magic" it should even be possible to maintain a common codebase for both IAR and GNU.
I'm in the process of porting an application from GCC to IAR and can attest that preprocessor macros can make this quite easy. The latest macro I wrote is ISR() for IAR which works quite well.

After finishing the port to IAR, I'll post my macros.

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kmr wrote:
I'm in the process of porting an application from GCC to IAR and can attest that preprocessor macros can make this quite easy. The latest macro I wrote is ISR() for IAR which works quite well. After finishing the port to IAR, I'll post my macros.

I have created a set of macros for GCC and IAR's compiler. I have not tested the IAR macros since I do not have access to the IAR tools but maybe you can reuse at least parts of my "CAL". The macros are in the file common/cal.h of my GCC-port of Atmel's DB101 example-code/library available from
http://www.siwawi.arubi.uni-kl.de/avr_projects/#db101_app

Martin Thomas

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mjthomas wrote:
I have created a set of macros for GCC and IAR's compiler. I have not tested the IAR macros since I do not have access to the IAR tools but maybe you can reuse at least parts of my "CAL". The macros are in the file common/cal.h of my GCC-port of Atmel's DB101 example-code/library available from
http://www.siwawi.arubi.uni-kl.de/avr_projects/#db101_app
Hi Martin, thanks for the note. The macros you wrote are quite similiar to mine. You have some good ideas in there to add to make my compatibility set of macros more complete.

I've been using GCC for over a year with good results, but have had some issues with code size as well as having AVRStudio frequently crash on me while using debugWIRE. So, I've been using the 30-day trial of IAR anyone can download. I've found code size reduction of 12-20% compared with -Os with GCC. But, most importantly, IAR's debugger doesn't crash on me. So, I'm trying to decide whether those advantages are worth the $$$.

For your macros, I'm not sure when this changed, but __C_task (while in AVR app notes with IAR), isn't recognized by the current compiler. However, __task works and from the documentation that appears what is currently supported:

__task Allows functions to exit without restoring registers. This keyword is typically used for the main function. 
By default, functions save the contents of used non-scratch registers (permanent registers) on the stack upon entry, and restore them at exit. Functions declared as __task do not save any registers, and therefore require less stack space. Such functions
should only be called from assembler routines.
The function main may be declared __task, unless it is explicitly called from the
application. In real-time applications with more than one task, the root function of each
task may be declared __task.

I noticed that you name your __C_task IAR macro to be CAL_no_return. IAR has a separate function declaration named __noreturn. I've not yet compared the assembly for __task and __noreturn, nor tried using them together.

__noreturn The __noreturn keyword can be used on a function to inform the compiler that the function will not return. If you use this keyword on such functions, the compiler can
optimize more efficiently. Examples of functions that do not return are abort and exit.

Thanks for your great work on your web site, especially the butterfly to gcc port.

Edit: Add info about __noreturn

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sveinutne wrote:
Yes, I have ordered DB101 yesterday, but no email in return yet.
Same here. I'm hoping they were just enjoying a break over the weekend.

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sveinutne wrote:

16 bit for addressing will be OK, because the AVR are using 16 bit(word 2 byte) between each address points.
So with 64K you can address 64K words or 128K bytes.
Svein

Thanks, I should have thought of that. Programming in C spares me from remembering such things.

So what's the story with the mega256? Maybe I can get my 17 bit address bus with that? :)

Steve.

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Even when you use only 16 bits for program counter, you still need 17 bits to byte adress program memory to read the flash constant tables. Thus for mega256 you need 17 bits for program counter, and 18 bits to adress any flash table.

Looks like that is a little tricky, but some ASM gurus here may enlighten us, or at least me, that I'm a C (novice) programmer, and ASM had faded from my memory a while ago.

Guillem.
"Common sense is the least common of the senses" Anonymous.

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I believe you need to use the RAMPZ bit, which acts as the 17th bit for the Z pointer register, so you can address all the memory. There might even be RAMPX and RAMPY, my memory of the discussion about is is hazy and I don't have one of the chips.

- Dean :twisted:

Make Atmel Studio better with my free extensions. Open source and feedback welcome!

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I think it uses the extra bit in RAMPZ for LPM/SPM.
For looong jumps it uses an extra register called EIND for the extra bit.
And I believe the internal program counter is more than 17-bits to be able to support even larger memories.

Unfortunately (to my knowledge) avr-gcc only supports 16-bit pointers, so I had some fun getting the long jumps from main to bootloader working properly. I ended up setting the EIND register manually, and that worked fine :-)

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Any news as to when the DB101s are being shipped?

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My paypal still shows "unclaimed" from Nov. 8th, almost a week ago.

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brophreak wrote:
My paypal still shows "unclaimed" from Nov. 8th, almost a week ago.
My two email requests for purchase information remain unanswered as well.

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Hi

My payment has been process according to my bank details.
So, it's the waiting games for the delivery.

Ken

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I kindly received email from avrfreaks, paypal requests, and paypal acceptances tonight. Yay, Atmel!

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I got email from Atmel with the body:

"Thank you for your payment. Our shipping partner will start shipping the DB101s tomorrow."

Another yay! for Atmel.

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kmr wrote:
I got email from Atmel with the body:

"Thank you for your payment. Our shipping partner will start shipping the DB101s tomorrow."

Another yay! for Atmel.

Same here, just hours after posting. :)

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I got email from sales@awrfreaks.net too, and they have accepted my late order. But they are only 5 min away bey car.
AVRFreaks.net
Vestre Rosten 79
Trondheim
Tiller
7075
Norway
So maybe I could call then and pick it up personally?
I will try to call them tomorrow.

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Keep in mind that the email said they start shipping today. It might be another 3 months before they finish shipping :D

Regards,
Steve A.

The Board helps those that help themselves.

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I called AVRfreaks, and it was OK to pick it up at first, but then when he checked it was to late. it was already shipped.
So for the rest of you that should be a good thing.
Svein

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sveinutne wrote:
I called AVRfreaks, and it was OK to pick it up at first, but then when he checked it was to late. it was already shipped.
So for the rest of you that should be a good thing.
Svein
Thanks for the update -- sorry that you weren't able to pick yours up.

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Quote:

-- sorry that you weren't able to pick yours up.

Referencing the earlier first-ship of Dragons to Freaks, Svein's unit will probably make a visit to John Samperi (sp) first before returning to "home". lol [When y'all get your DHL tracking numbers, or after you receive it and have the tracking numbers, see if the story is as funny as it was for the Dragons.]

Lee

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

I've never met a pig I didn't like, as long as you have some salt and pepper.

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Quote:
I called AVRfreaks, and it was OK to pick it up at first

I really am a geek. When I first read that I interpreted OK as zero K!

Regards,
Steve A.

The Board helps those that help themselves.

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Wow. Have you seen this?
http://www.freedomofinfo.org/nat...
Sorry for putting this in here. It has nothing to do with AVR, but if this is real, I am shocked.

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Quote:

Wow. Have you seen this?
http://www.freedomofinfo.org/nat...
Sorry for putting this in here. It has nothing to do with AVR, but if this is real, I am shocked.

Off topic, that would go into the OT forum. What possessed you to post that in a thread about the DB101?

- Dean :twisted:

Make Atmel Studio better with my free extensions. Open source and feedback welcome!

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Sorry,I will find a better place for this.

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To get the thread back on track..

My DB101 arrived today!

I have not had time to play with it yet but I like the cartoon type theme on the box.

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Quote:
My DB101 arrived today!

Where are you?

Chuck Baird

"I wish I were dumber so I could be more certain about my opinions. It looks fun." -- Scott Adams

http://www.cbaird.org

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I'm in Sweden so not too far from Norway and Trondheim.

I know I have not filled in my location, but I have set the map location pretty accurately as sort of a geography lesson ;) Not to criticize you for asking or anything, I should have mentioned it in my post!

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Quote:
I know I have not filled in my location, but I have set the map...

Lots of people do this, and I appreciate it, but unfortunately it takes an overt action to see the map. It's so much nicer to have the location pop up right under the avatar...

Chuck Baird

"I wish I were dumber so I could be more certain about my opinions. It looks fun." -- Scott Adams

http://www.cbaird.org

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Mine has arrived also, makes sense I guess.
/Lars

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Just as a FYI (and yeah, to gloat just a little ;-)), our units have arrived today too, but are still idling at the post office. I'll go grab 'em first thing tomorrow. Happy to see such rapid delivery!

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Fantasic! Now you can all see what I've been raving about. Pity you guys got a nice box with yours - anyone willing to provide a scan?

- Dean :twisted:

Make Atmel Studio better with my free extensions. Open source and feedback welcome!

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abcminiuser wrote:
Fantasic! Now you can all see what I've been raving about.
Well, except for the RGB LED backlighting. Does your board have a particular revision number that we can compare to the non-LED backlit models shipping?

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My backlit board has the following text on the reverse side (which makes it a REV D board I think):

A064 4.3 1010 D

The backlight's a great asset to my project (MyUSB USB stack) - I have my app sending ANSI terminal codes to change the backlight depending on the current program status. For example, if the VBUS power drops due to a low battery, the display turns RED while an error is printed to get my attention.

Non-backlit board is still awesome, however. They currently make fantastic micro serial consoles while I'm busy developing my projects. No more finicky USB-Serial cables for simple terminal output!

- Dean :twisted:

Make Atmel Studio better with my free extensions. Open source and feedback welcome!

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