atmega644pa-au on washing machine

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Hi, I'm Mullins and a this is my first time in this forum. 

My washing machine (candy) have an atmega644pa-au. some time ago the control board gone fire. one triac and some resistor burn. 

I put new triac and new resistor (I see an other identical control board) but its still not working.

Is there some chance to read the uchip from good control board end write the uchip on the broken control board?

With atmel studio 7 ad appropriate hardware may I reset the uchip?

 

Mullins

Ps.

as you can see I'm not native English so forgive me for some mistake.

 

 

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Mullins wrote:

Is there some chance to read the uchip from good control board end write the uchip on the broken control board?

 

Probably not. The AVR has 'fuses' which can be 'blown' during programming to prevent the code being read out later on. It is very likely that a manufacturer would blow them.

 

It will cost you about $5 to try. Search here for USBASP, a hardware unit about $5, ad AVRDUDE, the free sotware to drive it. You will also need access to the 6 programming connections on the PCB.

#1 Hardware Problem? https://www.avrfreaks.net/forum/...

#2 Hardware Problem? Read AVR042.

#3 All grounds are not created equal

#4 Have you proved your chip is running at xxMHz?

#5 "If you think you need floating point to solve the problem then you don't understand the problem. If you really do need floating point then you have a problem you do not understand."

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It is not likely that the company that made the washing machine would let you have a copy of their software for the AVR.  It is simply too much trouble for them, especially if there is a new model of the machine and a different revision of software.   You may be able to buy a replacement printed circuit board that has the AVR and the triac in place.

 

Another alternative would be to rewrite the software.  Washing machines are probably not too complicated.   You turn on a big motor, set its direction of spin and its speed.  Then you switch open a valve that lets water in, chug the motor back and forth, and open another valve to let the water out.   Then spin the clothes.   The controls could be a big hand-twist potentiometer and an on/off/start push-switch.

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More than likely, more then the two parts have failed, what makes you think the micro has failed?

How have you determined that it has, and how would reprogramming the existing micro fix it?

i have replaced control boards in my appliances, most of the time it’s cheaper to order a replacement then attempting to repair the existing board, but that will depend on your experience and training in such things.

 

jim

 

 

 

 

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Mullins wrote:
I put new triac and new resistor

What drives the triac ?

That driver will almost certainly be blown up also.

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The triac close piezoelectric dor key. But I see the piezzo is less then 1w triac is up to 4A. I don't understand how it broke. After this I just buy new controller board and it work for 1 year. All the broken components are on vertical position of the dissipator of rectifier (up to 30A) ad motor triac 15A. So there's a lot of hot air is going to this components. Datasheet say they stop working at 125 Celsius. I think hardware is OK because I replace broken parts. I hope Atmega644pa... Make an error log file if there's some problem.

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Mullins wrote:

I hope Atmega644pa... Make an error log file if there's some problem.

 

Many appliance do keep a log file but...

 

1) it will need the right hardware and the right software to access it and

2) if the mega644 is broken then it can't give you the log file

#1 Hardware Problem? https://www.avrfreaks.net/forum/...

#2 Hardware Problem? Read AVR042.

#3 All grounds are not created equal

#4 Have you proved your chip is running at xxMHz?

#5 "If you think you need floating point to solve the problem then you don't understand the problem. If you really do need floating point then you have a problem you do not understand."

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Simonetta wrote:
Another alternative would be to rewrite the software.  Washing machines are probably not too complicated.   You turn on a big motor, set its direction of spin and its speed.  Then you switch open a valve that lets water in, chug the motor back and forth, and open another valve to let the water out.   Then spin the clothes.   The controls could be a big hand-twist potentiometer and an on/off/start push-switch.

 

maybe it will be more simple with Arduino.

what I love in modern washing machine is they can do centrifuge up to 1400rpm but only if he charge is balanced. they are able to understand how much clothe you put on washing machine.

on the other hand I think if somebody do one efficient arduino washing machine thers non more chance for anyone who know something about electronics to buy a new one.

ki0bk wrote:

More than likely, more then the two parts have failed, what makes you think the micro has failed?

How have you determined that it has, and how would reprogramming the existing micro fix it?

i have replaced control boards in my appliances, most of the time it’s cheaper to order a replacement then attempting to repair the existing board, but that will depend on your experience and training in such things.

 

Jim wrote:

i have replaced control boards in my appliances, most of the time it’s cheaper to order a replacement then attempting to repair the existing board

I done the same thing. I bought a replacement but after one year it gone broke. 

 

 

I see on uchip is one pin to reset it. I try but nothing is happened . so I read again and see reset pin ca be disable when during the programming phase.

 

 

This control board here in Italy can bee repaired with 40€. So I think they change cheap broken parts and reset it. 

 

Thank you for participate on  this thread 

 

I make some error with "quote" windows :(

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Mullins wrote:
I done the same thing. I bought a replacement but after one year it gone broke. 

Seems your not finding the "root" cause of the failure, but rather are just replacing the broken parts.

 

The conclusion I draw from your description of the problem is either the driver is not properly engineered for the work it needs to do, or...

something else is out of spec, perhaps the motor that is being driven has a bad bearing, that increases the load on the driver making it too hot,

or some other mechanical problem exists (excessive ware and tear) that has increased the load on the motor, etc..... 

In other words, the root problem is else ware, the symptom is a blown driver board. 

 

Jim

 

 

 

 

 

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could even be "user abuse" ...

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ki0bk wrote:

 

Seems your not finding the "root" cause of the failure, but rather are just replacing the broken parts.

 

Jim

 

 

As I say, when the door lock triac is broken, I control  harness and piezoelectric. they are ok. After replacing control board it work for one year. Now an other triac gone burn, it's near the first one.

If I see the same piece is broken maybe there's some problem I never solve before replacing control board. But the broken part is not the same. yes it is in the same area because there's to much hot.

 

there's no "user abuse" because it was working normally. they say it's 10kg and we never put on it 10 kg. no noise from bearing or from motor 

 

Now  I'm going to buy  USBASP

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Now  I'm going to buy  USBASP

 

Thanks for the pictures they really help, I missed that the second problem was with a different part!

 

I don't see an ISP header where you can use the USBasp to read/program the chip, unless its j10, but that looks like a 12 pin socket, not a normal 10 or 6 pin ISP connector.

the photo is not clear in that area of the board. 

 

Jim

 

 

 

 

 

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ki0bk wrote:
I don't see an ISP header

on this kind of product, I think a header is unlikely.

 

there might be testpoints on the other side of the board, if you're lucky ...

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there's 2 connectors one for display and one I'm sure for programming.  

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how are you "sure" ?

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Its usually very easy to test if a port pin is blown - use a multimeter on diode test and the port pin should measure as a diode to 0V and another to 5V. If the port pin is damaged it will read as low ohms.
Compare with other port pins. External circuitry may affect the reading.

Check the simple things first - don’t fall into the trap of blaming the part you least understand.

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@Awneil; how Greek philosof Leucippo, Democrito
and Epicuro was sure about the atom? They didn't have electronic microscope.

@kartman
Can you explain it better I didn't understand.

Thanks to all who is participating in this thread.

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We're not talking philosophy here - you can prove the connector is for programing by verifying the correct pins of the AVR go to the connector. 

 

What would you like explained? The diode function on the multimeter? Or how to measure the port pin?

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Mullins wrote:
@Awneil; how Greek philosof Leucippo, Democrito
and Epicuro was sure about the atom?

They looked at evidence, made hypotheses based on that evidence, and devised experiments to verify those hypotheses.

 

Which is basically the same process as debugging:

 

http://www.8052mcu.com/faqs/120313

 

So, to put it another way, on what evidence do you base your assertion that the connector is for programming?

 

Remember that we don't have the board - so have no other way to check your assertions other than to ask you.

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Last Edited: Tue. Mar 31, 2020 - 10:15 AM
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I have different multimeters (two of them Fluke) and one Philips oscilloscope. I think I know how to use them.

Please show me in the picture where to make the measurements.

I think you are talking about programming port pin.

 

Thank you 

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Port pin, 0V and 5V. You should be able to measure the internal diodes between the port pin and the power rails. There’s four tests.

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Have a look at this...

 

 

...you should be able to measure the two diodes shown from the physical pin to the supply rails. If the circuitry in the "General Digital I/O" section has failed short circuit then the diodes will not measure correctly.

#1 Hardware Problem? https://www.avrfreaks.net/forum/...

#2 Hardware Problem? Read AVR042.

#3 All grounds are not created equal

#4 Have you proved your chip is running at xxMHz?

#5 "If you think you need floating point to solve the problem then you don't understand the problem. If you really do need floating point then you have a problem you do not understand."

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please forgive me but I still didn't understand where is located the line between PXN and the Cpin.

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"PXN" is the physical pin on the chip - that is where you stick your meter probe.

 

Everything to the right of that in the diagram is inside the chip.

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Ok, I make screenshot from datasheet, but still didn't see it.

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Mullins wrote:
still didn't see it.

Sorry - what is it you're looking for ?

 

EDIT

 

If you're looking for a pin marked "PXN", you won't find one - it's just a generic name meaning any port pin:

 

Port A pins are PAn, where n=0..7

Port B pins are PBn, where n=0..7

etc

 

So, for any general port 'x', a general pin 'n' is Pxn

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Last Edited: Tue. Mar 31, 2020 - 08:22 PM
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"Experience is what enables you to recognise a mistake the second time you make it."

"Good judgement comes from experience.  Experience comes from bad judgement."

"Wisdom is always wont to arrive late, and to be a little approximate on first possession."

"When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not unicorns."

"Fast.  Cheap.  Good.  Pick two."

"We see a lot of arses on handlebars around here." - [J Ekdahl]

 

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awneil wrote:

"PXN" is the physical pin on the chip - that is where you stick your meter probe.

I'm looking for PXN pin on the chip. I see datasheet but there's no PXN pin.

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I just edited #26 - must've been while you were typing - it occurred that you might be misunderstanding that!

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P=PORT

X=A/B/C/D...

N=0....7

 

PA0 = Port A, pin 0

 

Jim

 

 

 

 

Last Edited: Tue. Mar 31, 2020 - 08:25 PM
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ki0bk wrote:

P=PORT

X=A/B/C/D...

N=0....9

 

PA0 = Port A, pin 0

 

Jim

 

how can I find the pin in my control board

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You look on the pinout diagram you posted!

 

Did you see my edit to #26 ?

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Yes.

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To summarise:

 

Mullins wrote:
I'm looking for PXN pin on the chip. I see datasheet but there's no PXN pin.

As explained in #26 (as edited) and #30, there is not one "PXN" pin - it is a generic term for any/all of the Port pins:

 

 

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Last Edited: Wed. Apr 1, 2020 - 07:58 AM
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Ok, maybe I understand what you mean. Now I must test all the pin in red?

Sorry I was looking for only 1 pin

Last Edited: Wed. Apr 1, 2020 - 08:52 AM
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Mullins wrote:
Now I must test all the pin in red?

Not necessarily all of them.

 

You could start with the ones that are related to the blown components ...

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Ok I remove the chip. After setting the multimeter in diode mode I test pin 6Gnd and some random red pin. I alternate the probe an see that all the pin tested have 2.2V one direction and 0.7V opposite direction.
Did you think the chip is working?

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Last Edited: Wed. Apr 1, 2020 - 05:30 PM
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WTF did you remove the chip? You really are making it hard for yourself!

From what we can see, a triac went pop. Follow the circuit from the triac back to the AVR - hopefully there should be some other components in the path to test. Then you can test the port pin. If it is low ohms or short and there is nothing else on that pin, then it is likely the AVR has been damaged.

I would check more obvious things first - the power supplies commonly fail or begin to fail.check the electrolytic caps and voltages if you can power the board. Is there any signs of life on the board? Flashing leds, relays clicking etc?

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Mullins---you are having so so so so much trouble even connecting to test whether ONE  pin is bad or good, the chance of you fixing anything is basically ZERO.  Why not get a new board?     Appliance repair centers often can get you a replacement board.

 

When in the dark remember-the future looks brighter than ever.   I look forward to being able to predict the future!

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Nothing like words of encouragement to make a new member want to come back...

"Experience is what enables you to recognise a mistake the second time you make it."

"Good judgement comes from experience.  Experience comes from bad judgement."

"Wisdom is always wont to arrive late, and to be a little approximate on first possession."

"When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not unicorns."

"Fast.  Cheap.  Good.  Pick two."

"We see a lot of arses on handlebars around here." - [J Ekdahl]

 

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avrcandies wrote:

Mullins---you are having so so so so much trouble even connecting to test whether ONE  pin is bad or good, the chance of you fixing anything is basically ZERO.  Why not get a new board?     Appliance repair centers often can get you a replacement board.

 

Dear, in my home I live with my wife, my 2 son and my mother. 4 year ago I buy my house, here in Italy is not to much easy. No buddy is working except me. And repairing things is my principal work! Maybe it is not always perfect but usually I fix everything. Did you erer heard Renato Zero? It's bigger singer in Italy. His surname is not "zero" but hi use it to fuck the people who say to him at the beginning "tu sei un zero" you are zero.

I think is better if you remove your "ZERO".

Best Mullins

PS.
It's not first time I remove chip, I have Pace (https://paceworldwide.com)
Instrument to do that.

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I apologize if I jumped the gun. I was seeing that if it is a big task to hook a meter to a pin, it will be a very slow repair progress, and without code and circuit details it can be much more trouble to fix anything that is happening with this board.  So it may be much easier just to get a replacement board, if you are getting in over your head & that's a way to avoid the more complex frustration that will be coming.  However, if you do have repair experience, then it may be worth messing with it some more--but please don't expect an easy time with it.

When in the dark remember-the future looks brighter than ever.   I look forward to being able to predict the future!

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Mullins wrote:
Ok I remove the chip.

Oh No - How can you properly test the I/O pin now.

 

You should have done one of these options to measure the PIN.

  • carefully lifted the suspect pin off it's SMT pad
  • carefully cut the PCB track leading from the pin to tricac driver
  • removed all components connected to that pin

 

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Hi all. Someone in some previous post say maybe the problem Is not in The chip but in some other place. I decided to remove everything except smd resistor and capacitor. At the end I done the last thing replace the chip Atmega644pa. Now washing machine is working but I don't put clothes on it because it's in garage and I don't have Water.
Now I want to know if I can read the working chip when the USBASP is coming?
Thanks to all for your help.

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Your description is not clear - what was the cause of the fault?

As for reading the chip, it is unlikely. This was discussed in the beginning.

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One triac and some resistor burn. After replacing them washing machine turn on the display but don't do anything. No response to any switches. After replacing atmega644pa is working fine.

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Ok. I gather you got a good board and swapped parts to find the problem.
You can send the good chip to a lab and for $500 they will extract the code.

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Kartman wrote:

You can send the good chip to a lab and for $500 they will extract the code.

I think it's better if I take $500 ;)
Have a nice day