Why no 14 pin AVRs with PLL?

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avrcandies
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Posted by avrcandies: Sun. Apr 14, 2019 - 04:32 AM
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Hmm...been digging and looking for a 14 pin AVR to generate one 150KHz-ish type PWM (8 bit res, 0-255).

 

I can find 8 pin parts, like tiny85, or 20 pin parts like tiny261 with the high-freq PLL. I need about 9 real pins to work with (not counting gnd & vcc, avcc etc) for leds, switches, etc.  Might have to use the 20 pin tiny261 and pay a bit more (need the lowest cost--even $0.15 is a big deal).   Thought about using an 8 pin with a HC595 expander, but that is probably not a cost-saver.  Of course, the mech guys will toss in $5 worth of rubber feet & not think twice.

 

I used the header search function in the studio directory to find PLLSCR (parts that have the PLL register).

 

If I overlooked any such 14 pin parts, please let me know...not sure why they'd not offer one in 14 pins.  

 

 

When in the dark remember-the future looks brighter than ever.   I look forward to being able to predict the future!

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AVR Microcontrollers, megaAVR and tinyAVR
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clawson
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Posted by clawson: Sun. Apr 14, 2019 - 08:57 AM
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What is the real difference between 14 and 20 pin? If you go to the most densely packed pins package then surely it is a question of a millimetre or less?

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sparrow2
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Posted by sparrow2: Sun. Apr 14, 2019 - 09:02 AM
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Ask microchip. If you order 10 mill+ 20 pin chips in a 14 pin house perhaps they will do it. :)

 

I quick answer no big customers have asked for it.   

 

 

The tiny 15 was custom made to charge batteries, and that sold good and the tiny 25-85 was designed as a more general chip. (I don't know how many different chips there are made if tiny 25 and tiny 45 actually is tiny 85 die's )

 

And It looks like many of the 14 pin chips are 20 pin die's in a smaller house.   

Last Edited: Sun. Apr 14, 2019 - 09:07 AM
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avrcandies
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Posted by avrcandies: Sun. Apr 14, 2019 - 03:29 PM
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What is the real difference between 14 and 20 pin? 

 

Something like the 14-pin tiny44 is 64 cents at Digikey (in volume)......the tiny261 is a whopping $1.12...need the lowest possible cost for regularly stocked parts  (they do have some clearance sale parts).    

When in the dark remember-the future looks brighter than ever.   I look forward to being able to predict the future!

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avr-mike
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Posted by avr-mike: Sun. Apr 14, 2019 - 04:41 PM
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The ATTINY261A-MNR is showing as only

36 cents @100 on Digikey.  32VQFN

 

--Mike

 

EDIT: sorry these are in-stock but not

normally stocking

 

Last Edited: Sun. Apr 14, 2019 - 04:44 PM
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theusch
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Posted by theusch: Sun. Apr 14, 2019 - 07:32 PM
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avrcandies wrote:
Something like the 14-pin tiny44 is 64 cents at Digikey (in volume)......the tiny261 is a whopping $1.12...

What volume of '261A would that be?  Quantity 1?

 

It is a bit misleading to price just based on pin count, and not features, capacities, and peripherals.  As you are finding out, eh?  Better vote with your feet and find another architecture that will satisfy your needs.  How many are you making?

 

 

 

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theusch
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Posted by theusch: Sun. Apr 14, 2019 - 07:40 PM
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I see a bit more now; it is the -MU package, otherwise the '44 is more expensive than '216.

 

...and the '261 is somewhat more expensive:

...but certainly not twice as much as your apples-and-oranges analysis.

 

 

 

 

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

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Posted by angelu: Sun. Apr 14, 2019 - 07:57 PM
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I thought that these days the cheapest AVR's are from Microchip Direct.

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gchapman
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Posted by gchapman: Sun. Apr 14, 2019 - 08:06 PM (Reply to #8)
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IIRC, Digi-Key's sales can be better than microchipDIRECT.

 

"Dare to be naïve." - Buckminster Fuller

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avrcandies
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Posted by avrcandies: Sun. Apr 14, 2019 - 08:56 PM
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Interesting...I was looking only at soic packages...

ATTINY261A-SUR   Is $1.13,  compared to our present $0.64 cent soic tiny 44--a big % jump!
ATTINY261A-SU is $0.91 at digikey   ...why is an "R" worth 22 cents each??!?

 

For some reason looks like QFN  is less, though we prefer soic.

 

Figured more pins lead to higher price.  not sure why not offer at least one 14 pin with the PLL???...

Looking for around 5000 quan

 

I suppose pricing is mostly a dart-shoot & shortcut to an ulcer.

 

IIRC, Digi-Key's sales can be better than microchipDIRECT.

Yeah, they can mislead...digikey can have 67 of something in stock at cut-rate 38 cents (sounds great), then you design in, then 2 months later your assembly house says their purchasing has the lowest production quote for $1.11/ea & you say WHAT?

The 38 cent price was not for any future purchases, just a clear-out price.

 

When in the dark remember-the future looks brighter than ever.   I look forward to being able to predict the future!

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Who-me
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Posted by Who-me: Sun. Apr 14, 2019 - 11:11 PM
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avrcandies wrote:

Figured more pins lead to higher price.  not sure why not offer at least one 14 pin with the PLL???...

Looking for around 5000 quan

 

I think that comes down to volumes, and the biggest sales are in QFN packages these days, so SO14N is a smaller market (and more board area).

I think one reason SO14N (1.27mm) even still exists, is it can be used on single side PCB, and can go down wave soldering lines.

 

Hmm, looks like even TSSOP14 (0.65mm) can be wave soldered too, google finds this    https://www.nxp.com/docs/en/supporting-information/SSOP-TSSOP-VSO-WAVE.pdf

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gchapman
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Posted by gchapman: Mon. Apr 15, 2019 - 01:53 AM (Reply to #11)
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Who-me wrote:
I think one reason SO14N (1.27mm) even still exists, is ...
to reduce the risk of cracked solder joints (temperature cycling) though underfill can be added to the PCBA process for QFN.

Underfill revisited: How a decades-old technique enables smaller, more durable PCBs | Embedded

 

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avrcandies
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Posted by avrcandies: Mon. Apr 15, 2019 - 02:20 AM
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I think one reason SO14N (1.27mm) even still exists, is ...

And it works well with my soldering iron. 

============================

 

That underfill is interesting; the chips are too small for my taste...we have plenty of space.

 

When in the dark remember-the future looks brighter than ever.   I look forward to being able to predict the future!

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theusch
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Posted by theusch: Mon. Apr 15, 2019 - 11:58 AM
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avrcandies wrote:
ATTINY261A-SU is $0.91 at digikey   ...why is an "R" worth 22 cents each??!?

Why do you think?  It costs more for the extra step to put to the reel format?

 

 

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

I've never met a pig I didn't like, as long as you have some salt and pepper.

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avrcandies
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Posted by avrcandies: Mon. Apr 15, 2019 - 03:13 PM
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Why do you think?  It costs more for the extra step to put to the reel format?

I think that's crazy...you can get resistors on a reel and they are only pennies (or a fraction of a penny), or opamps, and also very cheap.  So no way, is  the extra cost of the processor to get put on a reel almost a quarter each.  
 

 

When in the dark remember-the future looks brighter than ever.   I look forward to being able to predict the future!

Last Edited: Mon. Apr 15, 2019 - 03:14 PM
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theusch
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Posted by theusch: Mon. Apr 15, 2019 - 07:34 PM
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Suit yourself; you obviously know better than I do.

 

 

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

I've never met a pig I didn't like, as long as you have some salt and pepper.

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ki0bk
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Posted by ki0bk: Mon. Apr 15, 2019 - 08:09 PM
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avrcandies wrote:
I think that's crazy

T&R are custom reel sizes less then whole reels!  So your paying the labor cost for someone to provide you with a less than full reel.

Compare the whole reel price!

 

Jim

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jgmdesign
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Posted by jgmdesign: Mon. Apr 15, 2019 - 09:17 PM
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avrcandies wrote:
Looking for around 5000 quan

 

At that point I would go straight to Microchip direct and place an order there and ask them to quote pre-programming the parts for you.

 

 

theusch wrote:
Better vote with your feet and find another architecture that will satisfy your needs.

 

Great advice.  I did that when I could not get a price break even through a rep.  Ended up using a PIC-quivalent for 1/5 the price of the PIC.

 

When it comes to economics of a product, I have learned that none of the manufacturers give the discounts they used to.  Want a nice price, order 100k parts.  Want a REAL nice price, order 1million.

 

 

JIm

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avrcandies
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Posted by avrcandies: Mon. Apr 15, 2019 - 09:55 PM
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T&R are custom reel sizes less then whole reels!  So your paying the labor cost for someone to provide you with a less than full reel.

ATTINY261A-SUR  is an atmel part number for reeled parts....exact same number for digikey...I don't think they are doing anything other an shipping the reel (however, I couldn't find Atmel's info stating quantity on their reel, so I may be in the weeds)

 

Still doesn't make total sense, since this is the biggest purchase option method Digikey has.  Seems like anything else, like bagging them by hand, putting them in a bunch of separate tubes, or other non-reel methods would be the pricier way.  A 20+ cent price difference--wow!    I suppose that's just the starting point for negotiations.   Maybe someday they'll offer a 14pin version with high speed PWM.

 

 

 

 

When in the dark remember-the future looks brighter than ever.   I look forward to being able to predict the future!

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Who-me
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Posted by Who-me: Mon. Apr 15, 2019 - 11:08 PM
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avrcandies wrote:

I think that's crazy...you can get resistors on a reel and they are only pennies (or a fraction of a penny), or opamps, and also very cheap.  So no way, is  the extra cost of the processor to get put on a reel almost a quarter each.  

 

Hmm, I'm not seeing the claimed difference, but there is a LOT of variation across packages here, some suggest 'go away' pricing is being applied.

ATTINY261A-SU       $0.91670 @ qty 3000 
ATTINY261A-SUR     $0.94760 @ qty 3000 

ATTINY261A-XUR     20TSSOP    $0.61000 @ qty 3000

ATTINY261A-MNR    32VQFN     $0.36000 @ qty 3000

 

The microchip direct pricing is a little bit more sane.. (5k+) - you need to watch for Digikey 'clear stock line' prices, not really flagged in any way.

 

ATTINY261A-MN   32 VQFN -40C to +105C  Tray (490)  $0.61
ATTINY261A-MU  32 VQFN -40C to +85C  Tray (490)  $0.61
ATTINY261A-MUR 32 VQFN -40C to +85C Tape and reel (6000) $0.63
ATTINY261A-MNR 32 VQFN -40C to +105C Tape and reel (6000) $0.63
ATTINY261A-SU 20 SOIC -40C to +85C Tube (37)  $0.78
ATTINY261A-MF 32 VQFN -40C to +125C Tray (490) $0.78
ATTINY261A-SUR 20 SOIC -40C to +85C  Tape and reel (1000) $0.80
ATTINY261A-MFR 32 VQFN -40C to +125C Tape and reel (6000) $0.83
ATTINY261A-XU 20 TSSOP -40C to +85C Tube (74) $0.85
ATTINY261A-XUR 20 TSSOP -40C to +85C Tape and reel (4000) $0.89
ATTINY261A-PU 20 PDIP -40C to +85C Tube (18) $0.98

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avrcandies
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Posted by avrcandies: Tue. Apr 16, 2019 - 03:52 AM
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ATTINY261A-SUR     $0.94760 @ qty 3000 

that's strange don''t get that...I see $1.13 ....this is what I see (just entered ATTINY261A-SUR  as the part#) .  Maybe there  is a "secret pricing" menu

 

Maybe microchip direct is the way to go!   Careful not design to in any "clearance parts" ...then find out in a few months they are 2x the price & get everyone fumed up.

 

 

 

When in the dark remember-the future looks brighter than ever.   I look forward to being able to predict the future!

Last Edited: Tue. Apr 16, 2019 - 03:55 AM
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