Hello to all!
I am tired of putting a clamp on a tiny when programming, so I am wondering how are you programming the tiny once soldered on board?
Best.
mu234
How to Programm tiny once bolded on board
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clawson 
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Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
Most AVR designs run the ISP pins out to some kind of easily accessible header. If not possible then you can at least bring them to a group of thru-hole vias then attach to that using "pogo pins"
Moe123
mu234 wrote:
Hello to all!
I am tired of putting a clamp on a tiny when programming, so I am wondering how are you programming the tiny once soldered on board?
Best.
which series ?
mu234
x5 family!
Best.
mu234
Thanks! Pogo pins seems promising, however, then I will have to hold down them ? Is there a way to attach them?
Best.
clawson
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Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
They are spring loaded and are usually just held in contact with the vias for the few seconds that the programming takes. I imagine if there were a lot of boards to be done this could be done in a "jig" rather than just manually.
ki0bk
You may find this tutorial from sparkfun about pogo pins interesting: https://www.sparkfun.com/tutoria...
Jim
Moe123
TC2030 or whatever is suitable for you, the cable costs a little bit. however when designing your board you have to decide which footprint you are going to use depends on your target.
you mentioned "attaching and holding down", you can add a through hole via.
mu234
cheers! 2030 MCP looks very promising, however, has any of you found a thiner version, maybe in one row all the pins and legs (eg. vertical layout of all pins and legs)?
O
o
o
o
o
o
o
O
or
O o o o o o o O
this
rather than
this
O O
ooo
ooo
O O
Best.
http://www.tag-connect.com/Mater...
Last Edited: Thu. Jan 24, 2019 - 02:12 PM
Moe123
mu234 wrote:
cheers! 2030 MCP looks very promising, however, has any of you found a thiner version, maybe in one row all the pins and legs (eg. vertical layout of all pins and legs)?
O
o
o
o
o
o
o
O
or
O o o o o o o O
this
rather than
this
O O
ooo
ooo
O O
Best.
http://www.tag-connect.com/Mater...
Not really, but maybe you can design one and then earn some $$
ki0bk
Moe123 wrote:
O o o o o o o O
Why not just use a 0.1, or 0.050 header, similar to the above.
I just use the header holes on my pcb's, then either stick a header attached to the cable of the programmer into program or use pogo pins in a clamp fixture for production.
In some units, we used SMD pads with pogo pin fixture on our micro size boards (less then 1" square) pcb's.
Of course, the other alternative is use per-programmed micros, then there is no need for programming pads, (if your willing to trash them if later there is an update needed)
Jim
Last Edited: Thu. Jan 24, 2019 - 02:47 PM
Moe123
ki0bk wrote:
Moe123 wrote:
O o o o o o o O
Why not just use a 0.1, or 0.050 header, similar to the above.
I just use the header holes on my pcb's, then either stick a header attached to the cable of the programmer into program or use pogo pins in a clamp fixture for production.
In some units, we used SMD pads with pogo pin fixture on our micro size boards (less then 1" square) pcb's.
Jim
Jim, you quoted me wrong, I never mentioned this "O o o o o o o O" thing. The OP himself wrote, now to the point:
We dont know if the OP wants to go to serial production thats why i think its irrelevant to mention the pogo pins IMO, However, for cheap solutions i mentioned Tag-connect solutions as a way of cost effective yet an easy interface between tiny x 5 "as they already implemented it" and the OP's PCB/prototype or whatever.
Regards,
Moe
gchapman
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Location: Clay County, Texas, u.S.A.
ki0bk wrote:
tinyX5 can have a bootloader if there's enough pins or can multi-impedance.
Of course, the other alternative is use per-programmed micros, then there is no need for programming pads, (if your willing to trash them if later there is an update needed)
tinyAVR 0-series may be a follow-on :
ATTINY807 - AVR Microcontrollers - Microcontrollers and Processors - Microcontrollers and Processors
AN2634 - Bootloader for tinyAVR 0- and 1-series, and megaAVR 0-series
joeymorin
gchapman wrote:
tinyX5 can have a bootloader if there's enough pins or can multi-impedance.
Also:
https://www.google.com/search?q=picoboot
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mu234
Hi, I'll try to reply, there is not production in mind, of course for production I guess the best way is to have a programmed chip, but this is another story.
I require this programming only for prototyping :) and I do not have enough space, hence I was using the clamp before...
Best.
mu234
Would you be so kind and please say more about the boot-loader thing you are talking about? Sorry, I am new to this :)
Best.
clawson
Level: Moderator
Joined: Mon. Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 105114 View posts
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
To use a bootloader you will need one time ISP access to the chip. You then program some special software into it (that goes to the top of the flash instead the usual location at the bottom). You also change the fuses during the same session to say that "from now on, when powered on, run that software up at the top". What that software actually does is "listens" on some communication channel (I2C, UART, SPI, LIN, CAN, Ethernet, Wifi, etc etc) for contact from some other PC program. Usually it hears nothing so seconds (or less) after power on it just goes on and runs the "application" code that has already been programmed in at the usual low location. However, if it sees contact from the PC software it stops where it is and the AVR+PC have a "dialog" during which the PC software feeds it chunks of flash code. It then uses a special AVR opcode called SPM (Self Program Memory) to write what it receives into the lower application section of the AVR (erasing what was there previously as it goes). When complete a whole new application software is in the AVR which it then goes on to run (and does so on all the following power ons) until the next time it gets contacted by the PC software. In this way, you can reprogram the application whenever you like but this still needs access to SOME pins in the device that provide the I2C/SPI/UART/whatever interface you choose to use for communication.
EDIT: looking at the tiny25/45/85 datasheet it reminds me that like most Tiny it does not offer much in the way of a sensible communication peripheral. All it has is "USI" but that can be "faked" into acting as I2C or SPI or UART but it takes a bit more work than in a real AVR. All the USI interfaces will use the same pins: 5, 6 and 7
Last Edited: Fri. Jan 25, 2019 - 09:16 AM
ki0bk
mu234 wrote:
I require this programming only for prototyping :) and I do not have enough space
For prototyping, you need to make enough space for ISP / debug connections! Why are you so space limited?
After all, the main benefit of flash based micros, is the ease of "in circuit (re)programming!
Jim
gchapman
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Location: Clay County, Texas, u.S.A.
Thank you for your excellent reply to mu234's question.
clawson wrote:
... and more pins is why the mention of tiny807 as a follow on to tiny85.
EDIT: looking at the tiny25/45/85 datasheet it reminds me that like most Tiny it does not offer much in the way of a sensible communication peripheral.
edit: typo
avrcandies
I am tired of putting a clamp on a tiny when programming
Why? You say you have no room for anything else! How much room do you have?
perhaps this castellated connector...requires "no" board space
jgmdesign 
if this is a large quantity production run, then why not simply have your AVR vendor pre program then for you?
JIm
ki0bk
Jim, he's prototyping, apparently on a production size board, which is his first mistake, he should be using a prototyping board that allows easy program loading and debugging!
Jim
jgmdesign ki0bk wrote:
Jim, he's prototyping, apparently on a production size board, which is his first mistake, he should be using a prototyping board that allows easy program loading and debugging!
Jim
Ahhh! Yes, building it first then making it work is usually not a good idea.
JIm
mu234
Hello guys, sorry for my late reply, but been busy with programming tiny :) indeed, thank you for excellent explanation for the boot loader, btw is there a guide/book/web page where more can be read, sounds promissing... ?
When I say i do not have much space I mean it :) literaly my board is 82mm by 9mm. Anyway, I am going after pogo pins. These seems to be useful, however, I need another thing to hold down the whole nutzen as Germans says, a board that has several boards on it... english word would be welcome? Anyway, I would like to test only, for the moment, several (lets say 20 boards) that are on nutzen, atm I am thinking to program each individually, but have an idea how to program several via multiplexing, but this is another story, will first try individual piece with pogopins, but I would like to use somekind of a plastic holder, hook to hold down the whole notzen to the pogopins, to have it fixed... have you ever saw such a thing?
Best.
mu234
You are probably right, I am working on 25€ Arduino dev board :) you wont believe it how much can be done with it, where there is a will anything goes and it serves my work! indeed, I am missing the debuging of avr, hence I am on arduino ;) To be honest I am quite happy about the flexibility of arduino, done some modification due to 3.3v design programming, etc. however, need to grow, what would you recomend to look at? btw atm I am on mac.
Best.
Last Edited: Tue. Jan 29, 2019 - 08:36 PM
mu234
Indeed, once I go over 500 radar :) so far I am below 20 ...
Best.
mu234
Thanks, looks promissing, but where can be bought? Cannot find a datasheet? Not much info about it?
Best,
Last Edited: Tue. Jan 29, 2019 - 08:47 PM
mu234
Definitely, currently I have pads for MISO MOSI, however, this also takes space :) hence I am looking for upright version, see my question up above.
Best.
ki0bk
mu234 wrote:
Definitely, currently I have pads for MISO MOSI, however, this also takes space :)
What is on the bottom of the board? Space there for 6 pads?
Jim
Brian Fairchild
What about the Edge of the board? Castellated holes?
avrcandies
What about the Edge of the board? Castellated holes?
yes, I brought that up --those "holes"
sparrow2
which house?
I would tool a small nylon block that allign with the house, and on that place pogo-pins that connect to the chippins/pads .
Remember not to connect anything on the board that will desturb the programming.
And if you can avoid using reset for anything other than reset :)
mu234
Bottom nothing , so, yes, so far I have the space for that, but no lags included yet :/
Best.
clawson
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Joined: Mon. Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 105114 View posts
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
In all this discussion I am trying to understand how using a block with pogo pins to connect for prototype programming is actually any better than:
mu234 wrote:
tired of putting a clamp on a tiny when programming
the clamp already used in #1 ?? If you have a working solution already why not stick with it?
Brian Fairchild
Why use a clamp at all?
You ought to be able to program 8k bytes in just over a quarter of a second (8k bytes of flash x 4 bytes per programming instruction x 8 bits per byte x 1us per bit). Doing and undoing a clamp will be much slower than that.
mu234
Thats all true, but believe me, it is much easier, at least for :) clamp is OK for one go, but not more :) indeed, it is working solution and I am still using it, but there is a better one with pogo pins at least it looks like that !
Best.
clawson
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Joined: Mon. Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 105114 View posts
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
I wonder if I'm misunderstanding what is meant by "clamp". I sort of envisaged something like this:
It only takes a second or two to clamp on/off a chip when you want to reprogram. If it is like this I'm not really seeing how holding spring loaded pogo pins against pads on the PCB is actually any quicker/easier ?
mu234
True, but I am looking for a solution that I can buy in store, like a clamp. It is ok, but several times used, it starts to fall off and becomes annoying... so pogo pins connector with legs is what I am looking at , but need to find the right size, so far it looks I will go after edge connector...
Best.
mu234
That is the one, however, I have the one in blue collar as well, I guess this one is from 3M... works as well, however. I guess its a matter of preference :)
Best.
mu234
This is on my plate atm, looking at it!
Best.
clawson
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Joined: Mon. Jul 18, 2005
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Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
But even for Pogo pins (unless you are very lucky!) you are going to need to relay the PCB to make 6 pads available somewhere. So if you do that why not simply install the usual 2x3 headers that most designs use for ISP?
(and if your clamp is working loose then I'd be chasing your supplier - these things should be good for 1,000's of operations)
Brian Fairchild
I use these and they do not fall off.
The ones with a collar are not as good and do fall off.
mu234
Out of curiosity, what is the name, number of this thing, I have one of 3M, but it is different... more like the one above...
Best.
mu234
Ok, what the usuall 2x3 header that most designs use for ISP ?
Best.
clawson
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Joined: Mon. Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 105114 View posts
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
mu234 wrote:
Yes, that.
Ok, what the usuall 2x3 header that most designs use for ISP ?
If you are relaying the board then just look at the Atmel manual:
https://www.microchip.com/webdoc...
and put down 0.1" pin header in that layout (any decent CAD program that knows about AVR will undoubtedly have this in the library).
Geronimo 
Whatever you prefer: