questions about UPDI programmers

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avrcandies
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Posted by avrcandies: Fri. Oct 6, 2017 - 08:40 AM
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Apparently while I was happily using tiny261's , mega 168's, tiny10's, etc, another programming method has snuck in...went to use a tiny816 & encountered the "new" UPDI method.

I have an ISP MKII (& of course a handful of STK500's)...but apparently they won't work with these new "tiny-1"  chips, correct?

 

Is there a low-cost programmer that will (say <$60)?  not interested in building my own programmer, though a simple mod to something might be ok.  Am using AS7 & GCC.

 

Is this new UPDI any good?...debug wire seemed like a big mess of reported problems & lockouts, so I've always avoided it.  I don't need any debugging capability, just programming the chips.

 

 

When in the dark remember-the future looks brighter than ever.

Tags:

Tools, In-System Debuggers and Programmers, Atmel-ICE, Atmel-ICE-PCBA, LUFA, AVRISP2, Industrial Automation
Last Edited: Fri. Oct 6, 2017 - 08:43 AM
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Brian Fairchild
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Posted by Brian Fairchild: Fri. Oct 6, 2017 - 08:42 AM
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Google 'pyupdi'.

"This forum helps those that help themselves."

"How have you proved that your chip is running at xxMHz?" - Me

"If you think you need floating point to solve the problem then you don't understand the problem. If you really do need floating point then you have a problem you do not understand." - Heater's ex-boss

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avrcandies
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Posted by avrcandies: Fri. Oct 6, 2017 - 08:47 AM
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Google 'pyupdi'.

Thanks, though I'm looking for an actual programmer solution, usable from AS7...little nervous about using a serial port adapter as a programmer...might do in a pinch.  Telling the production people to do that might raise some eyebrows. 

When in the dark remember-the future looks brighter than ever.

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Brian Fairchild
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Posted by Brian Fairchild: Fri. Oct 6, 2017 - 09:29 AM
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avrcandies wrote:

...usable from AS7...little nervous about using a serial port adapter as a programmer....production people...

 

You're using AS7 on the production line!?

"This forum helps those that help themselves."

"How have you proved that your chip is running at xxMHz?" - Me

"If you think you need floating point to solve the problem then you don't understand the problem. If you really do need floating point then you have a problem you do not understand." - Heater's ex-boss

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awneil
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Posted by awneil: Fri. Oct 6, 2017 - 09:31 AM
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https://www.avrfreaks.net/comment...

 

 

EDIT

 

A little further down that thread is a post from the author of pyupdi himself!

 

https://www.avrfreaks.net/comment...

Top Tips:

  1. How to properly post source code - see: https://www.avrfreaks.net/comment... - also how to properly include images/pictures
  2. "Garbage" characters on a serial terminal are (almost?) invariably due to wrong baud rate - see: https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/serial-communication
  3. Wrong baud rate is usually due to not running at the speed you thought; check by blinking a LED to see if you get the speed you expected
  4. Difference between a crystal, and a crystal oscillator: https://www.avrfreaks.net/comment...
  5. When your question is resolved, mark the solution: https://www.avrfreaks.net/comment...
  6. Beginner's "Getting Started" tips: https://www.avrfreaks.net/comment...
Last Edited: Fri. Oct 6, 2017 - 09:52 AM
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awneil
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Posted by awneil: Fri. Oct 6, 2017 - 09:35 AM
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Brian Fairchild wrote:
Google 'pyupdi'.

It's here: https://github.com/mraardvark/py...

 

Python UPDI driver for programming "new" tinyAVR devices

pyupdi is a Python utility for programming AVR devices with UPDI interface using a standard TTL serial port.

Connect RX and TX together with a suitable resistor and connect this node to the UPDI pin of the AVR device.

Be sure to connect a common ground, and use a TTL serial adapter running at the same voltage as the AVR device.

                        Vcc                     Vcc
                        +-+                     +-+
                         |                       |
 +---------------------+ |                       | +--------------------+
 | Serial port         +-+                       +-+  AVR device        |
 |                     |      +----------+         |                    |
 |                  TX +------+   4k7    +---------+ UPDI               |
 |                     |      +----------+    |    |                    |
 |                     |                      |    |                    |
 |                  RX +----------------------+    |                    |
 |                     |                           |                    |
 |                     +--+                     +--+                    |
 +---------------------+  |                     |  +--------------------+
                         +-+                   +-+
                         GND                   GND

 

avrcandies wrote:
little nervous about using a serial port adapter as a programmer...might do in a pinch.  Telling the production people to do that might raise some eyebrows
 

So don't tell them that, then!

 

Just tell them, "This is the UPDI adaptor" ...

 

Simples!

 

cool

Top Tips:

  1. How to properly post source code - see: https://www.avrfreaks.net/comment... - also how to properly include images/pictures
  2. "Garbage" characters on a serial terminal are (almost?) invariably due to wrong baud rate - see: https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/serial-communication
  3. Wrong baud rate is usually due to not running at the speed you thought; check by blinking a LED to see if you get the speed you expected
  4. Difference between a crystal, and a crystal oscillator: https://www.avrfreaks.net/comment...
  5. When your question is resolved, mark the solution: https://www.avrfreaks.net/comment...
  6. Beginner's "Getting Started" tips: https://www.avrfreaks.net/comment...
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avrcandies
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Posted by avrcandies: Fri. Oct 6, 2017 - 09:35 AM
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Thanks, but the link to the power debugger seems $$$...The old ISP programmers can be had for $15 

When in the dark remember-the future looks brighter than ever.

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avrcandies
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Posted by avrcandies: Fri. Oct 6, 2017 - 03:17 PM
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I am looking to being able to program from within Studio 7, using the normal tools  & programming menus ---selecting fuses, etc

When in the dark remember-the future looks brighter than ever.

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awneil
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Posted by awneil: Fri. Oct 6, 2017 - 03:34 PM (Reply to #8)
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avrcandies wrote:
I am looking to being able to program from within Studio 7

That's not the kind of thing one would normally do in Production - hence the puzzlement at your use of "Production" arguments against the pyupdi.

 

 

Top Tips:

  1. How to properly post source code - see: https://www.avrfreaks.net/comment... - also how to properly include images/pictures
  2. "Garbage" characters on a serial terminal are (almost?) invariably due to wrong baud rate - see: https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/serial-communication
  3. Wrong baud rate is usually due to not running at the speed you thought; check by blinking a LED to see if you get the speed you expected
  4. Difference between a crystal, and a crystal oscillator: https://www.avrfreaks.net/comment...
  5. When your question is resolved, mark the solution: https://www.avrfreaks.net/comment...
  6. Beginner's "Getting Started" tips: https://www.avrfreaks.net/comment...
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avrcandies
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Posted by avrcandies: Fri. Oct 6, 2017 - 03:48 PM
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They actually do use studio & just get to the programming tool & programming menu (just selects tools, programming , the file, plug in the cable & hit program, plugin the cable & hit program, etc)

I am not concerned about the now...what tools can be used with studio that are in the cost range of the MKII (could be an offshore type)

When in the dark remember-the future looks brighter than ever.

Last Edited: Fri. Oct 6, 2017 - 03:49 PM
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awneil
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Posted by awneil: Fri. Oct 6, 2017 - 03:50 PM (Reply to #10)
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avrcandies wrote:
They actually do use studio 

surprise

Top Tips:

  1. How to properly post source code - see: https://www.avrfreaks.net/comment... - also how to properly include images/pictures
  2. "Garbage" characters on a serial terminal are (almost?) invariably due to wrong baud rate - see: https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/serial-communication
  3. Wrong baud rate is usually due to not running at the speed you thought; check by blinking a LED to see if you get the speed you expected
  4. Difference between a crystal, and a crystal oscillator: https://www.avrfreaks.net/comment...
  5. When your question is resolved, mark the solution: https://www.avrfreaks.net/comment...
  6. Beginner's "Getting Started" tips: https://www.avrfreaks.net/comment...
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avrcandies
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Posted by avrcandies: Fri. Oct 6, 2017 - 04:13 PM
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With studio in 5-10 minutes you can have your production boards (say a dozen) all programmed.   My question is, can we continue with chips like the tiny816

When in the dark remember-the future looks brighter than ever.

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awneil
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Posted by awneil: Fri. Oct 6, 2017 - 04:34 PM
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So pyupdi and a simple USB-to-Serial sounds ideal

Top Tips:

  1. How to properly post source code - see: https://www.avrfreaks.net/comment... - also how to properly include images/pictures
  2. "Garbage" characters on a serial terminal are (almost?) invariably due to wrong baud rate - see: https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/serial-communication
  3. Wrong baud rate is usually due to not running at the speed you thought; check by blinking a LED to see if you get the speed you expected
  4. Difference between a crystal, and a crystal oscillator: https://www.avrfreaks.net/comment...
  5. When your question is resolved, mark the solution: https://www.avrfreaks.net/comment...
  6. Beginner's "Getting Started" tips: https://www.avrfreaks.net/comment...
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gchapman
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Posted by gchapman: Fri. Oct 6, 2017 - 05:10 PM (Reply to #10)
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avrcandies wrote:
They actually do use studio & just get to the programming tool & programming menu (just selects tools, programming , the file, plug in the cable & hit program, plugin the cable & hit program, etc)

Microchip Technology Inc

Microchip

http://www.microchip.com//wwwAppNotes/AppNotes.aspx?appnote=en599598

AN2466

Title:

Using Atmel-ICE for AVR® Programming In Mass Production

Name:

AN2466

Date:

07/28/2017

Description:

The application note introduces Atmel-ICE setup, driver installation, user guide of the Atmel Studio command line utility (atprogram.exe), and provide a PC programming tool project written in C#. The Visual C# example project can be downloaded along with this application note and run with the ATmega328PB Xplained Mini kit.

via http://www.microchip.com/wwwproducts/en/attiny1617

Microchip restocked Atmel-ICE PCBA such that it could be a component in a low-rate production line (pitch conversion, stainless steel contacts, pogo, BIT data via DGI)

There's a list of third party programmers; maybe one has UPDI for high-rate production.

Microchip does program AVR but not yet tinyAVR 1-series.

 

http://new.microchipdirect.com/product/search/all/ATATMEL-ICE-PCBA

http://www.microchip.com//wwwAppNotes/AppNotes.aspx?appnote=en592074 (AT06015: Production Programming of Microcontrollers)

http://www.microchipdirect.com/AVR-SAM-Programming.html

 

"Dare to be naïve." - Buckminster Fuller

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Brian Fairchild
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Posted by Brian Fairchild: Fri. Oct 6, 2017 - 06:43 PM
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gchapman wrote:

There's a list of third party programmers; maybe one has UPDI for high-rate production.

 

I have an ASIX Forte programmer here which I use for serial EEPROMs. It will also do megas and xmegas and coming soon is uPDI. I'm about to move over to using it for AVRs. Why? Because the USB drivers are benign and don't mess with all my other USB stuff unlike Atmel.

"This forum helps those that help themselves."

"How have you proved that your chip is running at xxMHz?" - Me

"If you think you need floating point to solve the problem then you don't understand the problem. If you really do need floating point then you have a problem you do not understand." - Heater's ex-boss

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awneil
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Posted by awneil: Fri. Oct 6, 2017 - 09:19 PM (Reply to #14)
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gchapman wrote:
 UPDI for high-rate production.

I don't think the OP is into high-rate production:

avrcandies wrote:
your production boards (say a dozen) 

 

cheeky

 

Top Tips:

  1. How to properly post source code - see: https://www.avrfreaks.net/comment... - also how to properly include images/pictures
  2. "Garbage" characters on a serial terminal are (almost?) invariably due to wrong baud rate - see: https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/serial-communication
  3. Wrong baud rate is usually due to not running at the speed you thought; check by blinking a LED to see if you get the speed you expected
  4. Difference between a crystal, and a crystal oscillator: https://www.avrfreaks.net/comment...
  5. When your question is resolved, mark the solution: https://www.avrfreaks.net/comment...
  6. Beginner's "Getting Started" tips: https://www.avrfreaks.net/comment...
Last Edited: Fri. Oct 6, 2017 - 09:20 PM
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avrcandies
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Posted by avrcandies: Fri. Oct 6, 2017 - 10:05 PM
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There's a list of third party programmers; maybe one has UPDI for high-rate production.

That is my question...is there a list of low-cost programmers that do UPDI & work in studio 7, kind of like the MKII clones.  Any production is low volume, maybe a few dozen here & there every few weeks.

 

Also, is there a complete list of which chips require this UPDI...in case we want to avoid (or use) those chips.  The Atmel selector page doesn't indicate what type of programming is needed.  You can sort of see it from studio, working backwards (pick a chip then see what tools are good for it)...but studio (at least my recent version) doesn't seem to have all the latest chips to pick from.

 

 

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gchapman
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Posted by gchapman: Fri. Oct 6, 2017 - 10:41 PM (Reply to #17)
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avrcandies wrote:
is there a list of low-cost programmers that do UPDI & work in studio 7, ...
Not that I'm aware of.

Am aware of Atmel-ICE-PCBA at 50USD and the inexpensive pyupdi.

Don't drop a conductor onto any of these else it may no longer be low cost (possible loss of a PC USB host port or worse) (operate a USB isolator)

avrcandies wrote:
Also, is there a complete list of which chips require this UPDI
tinyAVR 1-series datasheets and Atmel Studio part packs.

 

http://new.microchipdirect.com/product/search/all/ATATMEL-ICE-PCBA

ATtiny1617

http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/40001893B.pdf

(page 10)

Figure 1-1. tinyAVR 1-Series Overview

via http://www.microchip.com/wwwproducts/en/attiny1617

note, the forthcoming 32KB tinyAVR 1-series are in

http://packs.download.atmel.com/#collapse-Atmel-ATtiny-DFP-pdsc

along with the 2KB versions.

 

Total :

 

tiny212

tiny214

 

tiny412

tiny414

tiny416

tiny417

 

tiny814

tiny816

tiny817

 

tiny1614

tiny1616

tiny1617

 

tiny3214

tiny3216

tiny3217

 

"Dare to be naïve." - Buckminster Fuller

Last Edited: Fri. Oct 6, 2017 - 10:43 PM
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avrcandies
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Posted by avrcandies: Fri. Oct 6, 2017 - 11:20 PM
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Thanks the ICE-PCBA might fit the bill...why such an idiotic generic name??...how about a model number, like programmer/debugger PROGPRO 9300A??

 

 However the manual says nothing about UPDI...it says

 

Atmel Studio supports programming of Atmel AVR and Atmel SAM ARM devices using the Atmel-ICE. The programming dialog can be configured to use JTAG, aWire, SPI, PDI, TPI or SWD modes, according to the target device selected.

When in the dark remember-the future looks brighter than ever.

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gchapman
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Posted by gchapman: Sat. Oct 7, 2017 - 02:02 AM (Reply to #19)
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avrcandies wrote:
However the manual says nothing about UPDI
There's 10 hits when searching for UPDI; one :

Atmel-ICE

Connecting to a UPDI Target

http://www.atmel.com/webdoc/GUID-DDB0017E-84E3-4E77-AAE9-7AC4290E5E8B/index.html?GUID-4D88049D-94FD-427B-8C9B-FF741FEA685B

 

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avrcandies
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Posted by avrcandies: Sat. Oct 7, 2017 - 02:44 AM
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Hmmmm you are correct....Interesting that they left UPDI off the list they enumerated...I suppose it was an oversight & of course the first list I came to.

 

So this unit sounds like exactly what I was hoping for!

 

Are there any drawback or issues withg this, say compared with the AVRISP MKII?

 

I looked on Digikey to purchase & there are 3 things call Atmel-Ice....one is $55, the others $99 & $140....what are the differences in capabilities of the $55  vs $140 unit.  It alsmost seems like nothing, since they refer to the same manual The $140 has a plastic case...maybe that's all??

 

 

 

When in the dark remember-the future looks brighter than ever.

Last Edited: Sat. Oct 7, 2017 - 02:59 AM
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avrcandies
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Posted by avrcandies: Sat. Oct 7, 2017 - 03:06 AM
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Apparently the $100 price difference is only for a $5 plastic case & some cheap cables & breakout adapter...

 

Even on Atmel's ICE webpage it fails to mention UPDI, but mentions the other modes....strange

 

http://www.atmel.com/tools/atatmel-ice.aspx

 

 

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gchapman
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Posted by gchapman: Sat. Oct 7, 2017 - 03:07 AM (Reply to #21)
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No enclosure and no cables.

 

The replacement for an Atmel AVRISP MKII is LUFA AVRISP.

Could inquire with Dean about adding UPDI to it or create a UPDI LUFA issue then have a visible discussion with Dean.

PDI is USART, UPDI is UART (do-able)

To an existing off-the-shelf LUFA AVRISP, add the resistor as in pyupdi; or not as one LUFA AVRISP has two 100R on the USART TXD and RXD.

 

http://www.fourwalledcubicle.com/AVRISP.php

http://github.com/abcminiuser/lufa/issues

http://www.olimex.com/Products/AVR/Programmers/AVR-ISP-MK2/resources/AVR-ISP-MK2_sch.pdf (lower left)

via http://www.olimex.com/Products/AVR/Programmers/AVR-ISP-MK2/open-source-hardware

 

Edit : or not

 

"Dare to be naïve." - Buckminster Fuller

Last Edited: Sat. Oct 7, 2017 - 03:52 AM
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gchapman
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Posted by gchapman: Sat. Oct 7, 2017 - 03:10 AM (Reply to #22)
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Likely it's the Microchip web pages that are up-to-date :

http://www.microchip.com/DevelopmentTools/ProductDetails.aspx?PartNO=ATATMEL-ICE

 

"Dare to be naïve." - Buckminster Fuller

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avrcandies
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Posted by avrcandies: Sat. Oct 7, 2017 - 03:26 AM
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Likely it's the Microchip web pages that are up-to-date :

You are correct....an interesting dual universe of Atmel & Microchip!!! I supposed any outdated Atmel pages really should be fizzled.

When in the dark remember-the future looks brighter than ever.

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gchapman
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Posted by gchapman: Sat. Oct 7, 2017 - 03:31 AM (Reply to #25)
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avrcandies wrote:
an interesting dual universe of Atmel & Microchip!!!
In more ways than one wink

avrcandies wrote:
I supposed any outdated Atmel pages really should be fizzled.
I'm leery of that because some of the source code zip files haven't been copied to a Microchip URL.

There's still an active webmaster at Atmel so eventually the i's will be dotted and the t's crossed.

 

"Dare to be naïve." - Buckminster Fuller

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Brian Fairchild
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Posted by Brian Fairchild: Sat. Oct 7, 2017 - 05:01 AM
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Have a word with Alank2 about his board (see the post in marketplace) as I asked him about UPDI support.

"This forum helps those that help themselves."

"How have you proved that your chip is running at xxMHz?" - Me

"If you think you need floating point to solve the problem then you don't understand the problem. If you really do need floating point then you have a problem you do not understand." - Heater's ex-boss

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