ATtiny11 product end of life?

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smileymicros
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Posted by smileymicros: Sat. Dec 2, 2006 - 04:31 PM
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I'm thinking about using an ATtiny11 in an infrared tranceiver application. The chip would be driven by an external 6 MHz clock from another chip and would have the responsibility for modulating the transmission at 38kHz.

The reason I am thinking about using it is that it is cheaper than a 555 timer and associated caps and resistors, and uses less board space.

The reason I am thinking about NOT using it is that it has been said somewhere here that the chip is to be phased out.

Does anybody have any real information of the ATtiny product end of life plan? And is there any place to go to see such plans?

Smiley

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AVR Microcontrollers, megaAVR and tinyAVR, ATtiny11
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leon_heller
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Posted by leon_heller: Sat. Dec 2, 2006 - 04:40 PM
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Your distributor should be able to find out for you.

Leon

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Koshchi
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Posted by Koshchi: Sat. Dec 2, 2006 - 05:07 PM
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I think that that decision might rely heavily on the number of production units that you are planning on and the expected life span of the product. You also need to consider that by the time Atmel runs out of Tiny11s the price of direct replacement parts (such as the Tiny25) might be down to nearly what the Tiny11 is today.

Regards,
Steve A.

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smileymicros
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Posted by smileymicros: Sat. Dec 2, 2006 - 05:29 PM
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leon_heller wrote:
Your distributor should be able to find out for you.

Leon

Frankly, after having been, ummm... how shall I put this politely, LIED TOO, by both my distributor and Atmel about the Butterfly availability problem of the past summer and fall (they are available now) I don't trust any of them. I'm not sure LIED TOO is fair since I think the folks I talked to were just passing on the LIES that were told to them, but the effect is the same. I quit using MotoFreeScaleRola because they seldom gave me a straight answer - so basically I'm trusting no one in this business now.

I just remember somebody here saying the ATtiny11 is going away and I was wondering if they or anybody had any access to the real poop on AVR availability. I know they are said to be available about a year before they actually are, but I don't know how precipitously they dissappear at end of life.

Smiley

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Bronze Marktheusch
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Posted by theusch: Sat. Dec 2, 2006 - 06:02 PM
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Quote:

ATtiny11 is going away ...

Yep, we heard that too, but ...
Quote:

had any access to the real poop on AVR availability.

No, not "real" access. We asked for a volume quote on the Tiny11 for a proposal, and were given a Tiny13 quote instead. The '13 price dropped down to near '11 levels.

Between our favourite distis, the local rep, and the district Atmel guy we seem to get pretty good answers. But none of those souces could tell us how long till Tiny25 became readily available once the Tiny45 was in disti. That is an annoying part of Atmel, agreed. But they aren't quite as bad as say, Maxim, on phantom parts.

"Mongo just pawn in game of life."

Lee

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smileymicros
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Posted by smileymicros: Sat. Dec 2, 2006 - 06:06 PM
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Didn't Mongo punch out a horse?

Do you think the ATtiny13 is more long term viable than the 11? And do you think the ATtiny25 will be here within 6 months and be below 50 cents in quantity in a year?

Smiley

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Fe2o3Fish
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Posted by Fe2o3Fish: Sat. Dec 2, 2006 - 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Didn't Mongo punch out a horse?

Yes and the horse fell the wrong way after the punch. :roll:

Rusty Haddock = KD4WLZ = rusty@fe2o3.lonestar.org
**Out yonder in the Van Alstyne (TX) Metropolitan Area**
Microsoft is to software what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking

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Bronze Marktheusch
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Posted by theusch: Sat. Dec 2, 2006 - 06:39 PM
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Quote:

And do you think the ATtiny25 will be here within 6 months

It seems to have hit the distribution channel now (finally).
Quote:

be below 50 cents in quantity in a year?

Might depend on the quantity. :) The new AVR generations (well, half-generations anyway) have introduced anomalies in the AVR pricing structure. [I've listed some of them before. One of the most glaring is that a Mega329 costs less than a Mega169.] So I expect the pricing structure to be "refined" soon. Right now the Tiny25 is real close to US$1 in qty 100, which is about the same as a Tiny13.

So, something has to give. If the Tiny13 is $0.97 and the Tiny45 is $1.18, can the Tiny25 price be higher than $1.18? Not. Will it be lower than $0.97? We will need to stay tuned. Inquiring minds want to know.

[Sidebar: A few years ago we were looking for an under-$1 (non-mask) micro for a timer-type project and didn't find any. The Tiny11 was out but was right around $1 in quantity. Now we have several choices, just with AVRs.]

Lee

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Gwen
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Posted by Gwen: Sat. Dec 2, 2006 - 07:31 PM
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I'm wanting to buy lots of ATtiny85's but the discount is minuscule and you have to get 400 of them to save anything at all :(

The aTtiny45 has great quantity discounts even on just 25 ... I wonder if the 85 will be discounted later on?

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bloody-orc
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Posted by bloody-orc: Sat. Dec 2, 2006 - 07:54 PM
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you girls and guys are lucky to have at least that low price over there... here in Estonia i have to pay over 5$ for ANY AVR (a piece). most are over 10$ (a piece) (Megas for instance) and the good ones are not even being sold here... and there is no place near to get some either... digikey wants >50$ for shipping, atmel wont sell them at all (neither will he send us samples here for some unknown reason... they just ignored every request and they are not dumb). oh well... must work with my only mega 89 and mega 16's then... it's getting kinda boring ;) it has been 3 years now with the same chip...

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bluegoo
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Posted by bluegoo: Sat. Dec 2, 2006 - 07:58 PM
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smiley wrote:

Quote:
Frankly, after having been, ummm... how shall I put this politely, LIED TOO, by both my distributor and Atmel about the Butterfly availability problem of the past summer and fall (they are available now) I don't trust any of them. I'm not sure LIED TOO is fair since I think the folks I talked to were just passing on the LIES that were told to them, but the effect is the same. I quit using MotoFreeScaleRola because they seldom gave me a straight answer - so basically I'm trusting no one in this business now.

glad to hear the playing field is now flat and you have reached this state of enlightenment, I knew you had been around long enough to realize all of the semi-vendors bs us at one time or another....maybe look at competitive devices that get the job done if there is a question about an AVR part...

I think some of the PICS in sot pkgs and prices well under a dollar will replace your 555 app ir app or maybe an 8 pin zilog part for less than a dollar with builtin hardware ir modulation.... :shock:

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Gwen
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Posted by Gwen: Sat. Dec 2, 2006 - 08:06 PM
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Quote:
I think some of the PICS in sot pkgs and prices well under a dollar will replace your 555

I don't think Smiley would use PICs....unless he was getting paid very well to use them.

Quote:
here in Estonia i have to pay over 5$ for ANY AVR (a piece). most are over 10$

Is that because of some kind of import duty or tax in Estonia???

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bloody-orc
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Posted by bloody-orc: Sat. Dec 2, 2006 - 09:23 PM
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that's the point. there isn't... there is just so little people that actually do something with those chips... and that's because they cost too much. it's a closed loop...
That's why i'ld like to order samples of those big ones (100 pin ones) for my electronic board game but i cant get a hold of one... my whole project budget is $50 so i cant order from US either...
Luckily i'm going to UK to university soon (i hope at least...) then i will buy all the AVRrs there are...
Bradford here i come!

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gislio
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Posted by gislio: Sat. Dec 2, 2006 - 09:45 PM
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bloody-orc wrote:
you girls and guys are lucky to have at least that low price over there... here in Estonia i have to pay over 5$ for ANY AVR (a piece). most are over 10$ (a piece) (Megas for instance) and the good ones are not even being sold here... and there is no place near to get some either... digikey wants >50$ for shipping, atmel wont sell them at all (neither will he send us samples here for some unknown reason... they just ignored every request and they are not dumb). oh well... must work with my only mega 89 and mega 16's then... it's getting kinda boring ;) it has been 3 years now with the same chip...

Take a look at this distributor.
http://www.futurlec.com/ICAtmel....

They have very good prices and ship quite fast.
From Bangkok to Reykjavik in 10 days is pretty good.

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ikletti
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Posted by ikletti: Sat. Dec 2, 2006 - 09:48 PM
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Bloody-orc,

don´t know about your time schedule for going to Bradford and I haven´t yet a clue about how to handle the whole shipping (and what customs regulations are applicable), but I think here in Germany it should not be too hard to get hold of a few of the chips you need and then send them to you. And shipping should be considerably lower than $50...

The project milestones that must be hit before christmas are keeping really busy at the moment, but you can send me a personal mail and we could discuss this, if you like.

Ingo

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Simonetta
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Posted by Simonetta: Sat. Dec 2, 2006 - 10:10 PM
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If you are considering using the Tiny13 please notice that it is the only AVR device that can't use a crystal as a system clock source.
This may have no bearing on your application but it can be a real problem if overlooked. I converted an application that uses MIDI (a serial protocol at 31.25K baud +/- 1%) to Tiny13 and found that I had to tune the OSCCAL register each individual IC for reliable operation.
If any device should be give End-of-Life it's the Tiny13. The Tiny25, if it ever becomes available through the mail-order outlets like DigiKey, will be a better and more flexible device if it sells in the same price range as the Tiny13. Currently DigiKey is selling the Tiny13 at $1.30 (qnt:25) and the far superior Tiny45 at about the same price. Digikey never seems to have more than a few hundred of these devices available in DIP form and are often sold out. They did manage to obtain about 25000+ units of the Tiny2313 device, according to the displayed records. However that device at 20 pins is too big for a small application (like 555 timer or a TTL cluster replacement).
I was excited about the proposed Tiny24 at 14 pins. However, it seems that Atmel may have canceled development on this entire line of 14-pin AVRs. A real pity.
I occasionally study the data sheets of the PIC family. However they appear awkward to program in assembler even though they may be functionally equal to AVR at roughly the same price. Mouser seems to be the best place to shop for PICs and DigiKey for AVR. Jameco does have a special on Tiny26 at $1.23 each (US dollars) in quantity 25, but this is probably just a clearance close-out price.

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leon_heller
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Posted by leon_heller: Sat. Dec 2, 2006 - 10:26 PM
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Programming PICs isn't as nice as AVRs, but it isn't too bad, and the newer 18F and 24F devices are much better than the older ones. There seem to be fewer availability problems with PICs, and the development tools are better and cheaper. One of the very cheap 10F devices might be suitable for Smiley's purposes.

Leon

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Posted by theusch: Sat. Dec 2, 2006 - 10:44 PM
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Quote:

and the development tools are better and cheaper.

Expand on that a bit. Compared to the prices that we paid for tools from the big-boys like Motorola & TI & Intel in the good old days (like 10 years ago), the modest prices for Atmel tools were like a breath of fresh air. Dev boards & demo boards & programmers at give-away prices (i.e., we wouldn't be able to produce them ourselves for what we purchase the final assembly from the disti). Assembler, IDE, ISP, simulator free with AVRStudio. Reasonably priced (a few hundred $$$) C compilers from ImageCraft & CodeVision. Free compiler a few years ago with GCC, and worth every penny. ;)

Right now one can set up with a Dragon + AVRStudio + WinAVR and be completely set up for US$50. Even cheaper if one gets a free Dragon or JTAGICEMk II or STK500 at an Atmel seminar. :)

Lee

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dl8dtl
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Posted by dl8dtl: Sat. Dec 2, 2006 - 11:26 PM
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> I was excited about the proposed Tiny24 at 14 pins. However, it
> seems that Atmel may have canceled development on this entire line
> of 14-pin AVRs. A real pity.

What makes you think so?

I've got ATtiny24 samples way ago, and ATtiny44 samples just recently.
OK, I'm a compiler vendor in their book, but the ATtiny44's I've got
don't have that usual "E.S." (engineering sample) mark on them, so I
figure they are full production now.

Jörg Wunsch

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leon_heller
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Posted by leon_heller: Sun. Dec 3, 2006 - 12:08 AM
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theusch wrote:
Quote:

and the development tools are better and cheaper.

Expand on that a bit. Compared to the prices that we paid for tools from the big-boys like Motorola & TI & Intel in the good old days (like 10 years ago), the modest prices for Atmel tools were like a breath of fresh air. Dev boards & demo boards & programmers at give-away prices (i.e., we wouldn't be able to produce them ourselves for what we purchase the final assembly from the disti). Assembler, IDE, ISP, simulator free with AVRStudio. Reasonably priced (a few hundred $$$) C compilers from ImageCraft & CodeVision. Free compiler a few years ago with GCC, and worth every penny. ;)

Right now one can set up with a Dragon + AVRStudio + WinAVR and be completely set up for US$50. Even cheaper if one gets a free Dragon or JTAGICEMk II or STK500 at an Atmel seminar. :)

Lee

Microchip gives away the C compilers for the dsPICs and PIC18F devices (same as the full versions but with some optimisations disabled) and the ICD 2 debugger is very good value for money. They also have very comprehensive low-cost development and evaluation systems.

I use AVRs and have a lot of AVR tools, but find the Microchip development software and hardware easier to use and more reliable than that for the AVR. They even replace faulty equipment like debuggers free of charge, even when it has been in use for a number of years, sending a replacement immediately without requiring the faulty unit to be returned first.

Leon

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Nuno
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Posted by Nuno: Sun. Dec 3, 2006 - 12:56 PM
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gislio wrote:

Take a look at this distributor.
http://www.futurlec.com/ICAtmel....

I can advise this one too. Shipping to Europe is only $4 (american dollars) if you buy stuff up to $29.

Although Futurlec is good for lots of stuff, for most AVRs I still find it cheaper (no taxes and so on) to buy here (Greece): http://www.stelioscellar.com/eSh...

Anyway, you should always check on several sites the part you want to buy, because prices have an incredible variation.

Embedded Dreams
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Posted by jfiresto: Sun. Dec 3, 2006 - 04:04 PM
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Simonetta wrote:
... If any device should be give End-of-Life it's the Tiny13. The Tiny25, if it ever becomes available through the mail-order outlets like DigiKey, will be a better and more flexible device if it sells in the same price range as the Tiny13....

It appears the ATtiny25 is not in all ways better. According to their datasheets, it takes almost twice as much active power as the ATtiny13: 450 vs. 240µA @ 1Mhz and 1.8V.

- John

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rhilton
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Posted by rhilton: Sun. Dec 3, 2006 - 04:36 PM
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Regarding Digikey shipments to EU - it is quite a bit cheaper to use the US$ website. Cheaper shipping options are for whatever reason available on that aswell as the component range being more comprehensive.

Ralph Hilton

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bluegoo
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Posted by bluegoo: Sun. Dec 3, 2006 - 08:01 PM
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Quote:
One of the very cheap 10F devices might be suitable for Smiley's purposes.

Thats what I recommended as it seemed a fit and the come in small sot pkgs but not sure if Pics are on the radar

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bluegoo
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Posted by bluegoo: Sun. Dec 3, 2006 - 08:31 PM
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leon wrote:

Quote:
They even replace faulty equipment like debuggers free of charge, even when it has been in use for a number of years, sending a replacement immediately without requiring the faulty unit to be returned first.

man thats cool...as the previous posts state the 18f and 24f appear to be much better (and i certainly was no PIC lover in the past) than previous pics and the compiler/ide debugger is is cool and its free with timely updates...my only real concern is that it appears their reasonably priced $160 ICD2 debug tool actually consumes resources software and hardware in the device being tested...this seems a bit crude since almost every micro vendor has figured how to embed the debug module and make it more transparent to the developer (when it works)
other than that concern they look pretty good to me..plentiful as the previous post says although not always cheaper than Atmel

Also between now and the end of the year they are discounting almost all the dev tools lowering the cost to check them out....I thought the 10F and some others in the 18f and 24f series where cool as they offered some features Atmel did not offer and in some apps make a better fit.....

One of my other gripes about Atmel is in small pincount pkgs less than 32...in apps I do not need ADC the 3 extra pins for the vref,adc supply and extra digital gnd is sometimes a show stopper...have to move to a bigger package....I wish but I doubt it will happen Atmel offered versions without ADC and attendant pins for all digital apps...fortunatly other vendors offer these digital only versions or possibly better adc's on mixed signal micros...at least that looks like the case in Silabs case....

just IMHO (in my HALFASS opinion)
Probably straying a bit to far from Smileys thread....

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dl8dtl
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Posted by dl8dtl: Sun. Dec 3, 2006 - 10:51 PM
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> One of my other gripes about Atmel is in small pincount pkgs less
> than 32...in apps I do not need ADC the 3 extra pins for the
> vref,adc supply and extra digital gnd is sometimes a show stopper.

The ATtinyX4 series (14 pins), while they do offer an ADC, don't add
more pins to operate the ADC. Similar for the ATtinyX5 (8 pins).
Only packages with 20 and more pins have that, but then, there's still
the 20-pin ATtiny2313 that is digital-only. What's been requested
though occasionally is an ATtiny2313-compatible device with more
memory.

Jörg Wunsch

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Mikeharrison
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Posted by Mikeharrison: Sun. Dec 3, 2006 - 11:22 PM
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No question over Microchip devtools being more reliable. I use both extensively, and have lost count how many times I've nearly thrown a JTAG ICE II through the window. And Microchip have a proper in-circuit emulator for all their parts. Atmel have only toyed with proper ICEs with a random scattering of rapidly-obsoleted, generally not-very-good emulators and seem to have totally given up now.
I'd always prefer the option to pay for good tools than no choice but using cheap flaky ones.
An ICE2000 personality pod for a new PIC can easily pay for itself in a few days. I just don't have that option with Atmel.

Just started using IAR for AVR stuff and it appears to be able to keep a rather tighter rein over JTAG ICE's flakiness with debugwire than AVR Studio manages to, however given an otherwise equal match between AVR and PIC for a design, I'd still be more likely choose PIC for the sole reason of devtool quality & reliability.

Quote:
I'm wanting to buy lots of ATtiny85's but the discount is minuscule and you have to get 400 of them to save anything at all Sad

400 is nowhere near 'lots' as far as distributors are concerned.

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Mikeharrison
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Posted by Mikeharrison: Sun. Dec 3, 2006 - 11:59 PM
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rhilton wrote:
Regarding Digikey shipments to EU - it is quite a bit cheaper to use the US$ website. Cheaper shipping options are for whatever reason available on that aswell as the component range being more comprehensive.

I use DK quite a lot to the UK since they started doing free shipping for orders >£100. Delivery is usually 2-3 days, with good tracking so you know when it's coming. Just wish they'd do something like free normal post delivery for, say, over £50.
I've also noticed a few things on the US site not on the UK one (AMP crimp tool I think) - probably due to local distribution agreements with the manufacturer.

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peret
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Posted by peret: Tue. Dec 5, 2006 - 12:38 AM
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I don't know about the Tiny11 - its demise has been forecast before, but it's still here. I should think if there's a RoHS compliant version it's here to stay. I was told that the Tiny12 was being phased out - no RoHS version would be made - and encouraged to move on to the Tiny13, but this turned out to be untrue, since there are now RoHS Tiny12s. Meanwhile, the switch to Tiny13 turned out to be an expensive disaster, since Atmel decided that 10% was "near enough" for clock calibration and, like 10% resistors, every Tiny13 I get these days is about 10% off using the factory "ok-fine-that's-good-enough-ship-it" calibration byte. They're all capable of better than 1%, but it takes about 10 minutes to trim them individually.

oh well, back to the product recall... Only 2,700 to recalibrate this week.

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dpintod
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Posted by dpintod: Tue. Dec 5, 2006 - 01:10 PM
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Hi:

I was planning to use the tiny11 in a replacement for a 555 to drive a dip reed relay. Can somebody tell me if the micro have enough source driving current to do this job.

Thanks,
dpintod

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dl8dtl
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Posted by dl8dtl: Tue. Dec 5, 2006 - 01:41 PM
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> Can somebody tell me if the micro have enough source
> driving current to do this job.

The datasheet can. Under "Electrical Characteristics" ->
"ATtiny11 Typical Characteristics". All you need in addition
is Ohm's law, and the data of your relay.

No need to hijack a thread for this...

Jörg Wunsch

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ka7ehk
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Posted by ka7ehk: Tue. Dec 5, 2006 - 07:10 PM
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Every component is near the end of its life. The only difference is HOW near!

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Bingo600
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Posted by Bingo600: Tue. Dec 5, 2006 - 07:41 PM
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I'd chose a Tiny12 or 13 , they don't need HV-Programming , but i don't know if they're too expensive compared to the Tiny11

/Bingo

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Bronze Marktheusch
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Posted by theusch: Tue. Dec 5, 2006 - 07:42 PM
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Quote:

Every component is near the end of its life. The only difference is HOW near!

Repent! The end is near.

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(from http://faculty.southwest.tn.edu/... )

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ka7ehk
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Posted by ka7ehk: Tue. Dec 5, 2006 - 11:08 PM
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Thanks for the cartoons!

My point is that every component has a finite commercial life. We try to choose parts that are no further though that "bell-shaped" obsolesence cycle than "maturity". But, sometimes, there is no practical option for meeting your goals. Then, if you are really concerned about short remaining life, either: (a) rethink your goals, (2) rethink your biases, or (III) rethink your expectations.

Even so, there are times when it looks like a component has a nice long life, ahead, then along comes something like RoHS and all bets are off.

I guess its way "things is".

Jim

 

Until Black Lives Matter, we do not have "All Lives Matter"!

 

 

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Posted by JohanEkdahl: Tue. Dec 5, 2006 - 11:14 PM
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Quote:

(a) ... (2) ... (III)

:D

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No guarantees, but if we don't report problems they won't get much of  a chance to be fixed! Details/discussions at link given just above.

 

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tymm
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Posted by tymm: Wed. Dec 6, 2006 - 12:19 AM
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... can always work on making it super simple to add some components & throw a 555 on the same board, for this specific use, no? yeah the GND pin is in a different place (unfortunately the GND pin of each is in the same position as RESET on the other device... though the T11 you could set the fuse to disable ext reset)... 0-ohm "resistor" pads though could allow rewiring easily...

you'd lose some board space as compared to a straight T11 design... but other than that shouldn't be a big deal.

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Gwen
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Posted by Gwen: Wed. Dec 6, 2006 - 02:50 AM
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Quote:
I was planning to use the tiny11 in a replacement for a 555 to drive a dip reed relay. Can somebody tell me if the micro have enough source driving current to do this job.

I think it would have enough current for this...if not then use a cheap pn2222a or similar as a simple transistor switch.

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TMBartman
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Posted by TMBartman: Wed. Dec 6, 2006 - 03:07 PM
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End of life????

Just GREAT! I wrapped up my board, and set money for 5000 Tiny11 chips to get programmed.

GRRR!!!!!

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smileymicros
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Posted by smileymicros: Wed. Dec 6, 2006 - 05:38 PM
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Uh, it was a question, not a statement of fact, so no need to growl - and based on the responses, I'd think it will be around for a while and when EOL does hit, there will likely be something that will substitute for about the same price (and HOPEFULLY, pinout).

Smiley

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mneary
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Posted by mneary: Wed. Dec 6, 2006 - 06:09 PM
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dpintod wrote:
I was planning to use the tiny11 in a replacement for a 555 to drive a dip reed relay. Can somebody tell me if the micro have enough source driving current to do this job.
The DIP relays I see on the net tend to have coils between 145 and 500 ohms. At 5V, this is 35mA to 10mA. Check the relay before you buy! Check your Tiny11 datasheet for the result. :shock:

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