Typical 20 Pin AVR

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Developers

 

Our Attiny 13A project is going fine.

 

In the meantime wanted to get a 20 pin prototype board and

 

put a chip on it.

 

Any suggestion?\ for a good all round AVR chip?

 

Thank!

Imagination rules the world-Napoleon

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"Dare to be naïve." - Buckminster Fuller

Last Edited: Thu. Feb 2, 2017 - 06:05 AM
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I like the ATMega48 as an all around good chip!

 

 

(Possum Lodge oath) Quando omni flunkus, moritati.

"I thought growing old would take longer"

 

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No question: Mega328P.   Comes in DIP, SIOC, quad-flat pack...   Plus it is the Arduino chip.  So the entire Arduino system is available to you from the bootloader to the thousands of pre-tested code libraries.  

 

Don't buy the chip and mount it.  Instead buy the Arduino PROmini module or the Arduino Nano.   The ProMini has no USB interface IC, but the module board (IC with all the trimmings) costs $2 each.

The Arduino Nano has the USB interface IC so you can use the bootloader and the serial Monitor.

 

Are you adding RTC, TFT screen, MIDI, gyroscope, compass, temperature sensor, FM radio, bluetooth, Ethernet, and/or motor controls to your old Tiny13 designs?   Then using the Arduino will get your prototype running in about 1/10th the time that it would take you to study and adapt all the half-wit, undocumented libraries that are spinning around the web for AVRs that are not part of Arduino.

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What does Mega88-family have to do with 20 pin?

 

It is certainly an "interesting" approach to start a project solely on the pin-count of the micro.

 

[heretical:  Jump into the current decade and start working with Cortex.  M0; M0+; maybe even M3 or M4]

 

Anyway, arguably the "best" 20-pin AVR is the Tiny1634.

 

 

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

I've never met a pig I didn't like, as long as you have some salt and pepper.

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gchapman wrote:
late May 2016 (sic?) for SOIC.

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I like differential ADCs with gain, so my vote is ATtiny167 and ATtiny861.

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Developers

 

How does Attiny 2313 measure up as being your typical AVR chip?

 

How are some of the recommended chips more typical?

 

Thanks!

Imagination rules the world-Napoleon

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NoviceAtmelAVRUser wrote:

 

Developers

 

How does Attiny 2313 measure up as being your typical AVR chip?

 

How are some of the recommended chips more typical?

 

Thanks!

 

I'd say it's not very typical, because it lacks an ADC, unlike most AVRs. Tiny 816 is also not typical, because it has the new TinyX architecture.

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+1 vote for the ATtiny861.  It's been my go-to chip on so many small projects.

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arguably the "best" 20-pin AVR is the Tiny1634.

+1

John Samperi

Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.

www.ampertronics.com.au

* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly

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js wrote:

arguably the "best" 20-pin AVR is the Tiny1634.

+1

+1 as well.  Dual USARTS are a nice touch.  Kind of like a miniature Mega324

 

JIm

I would rather attempt something great and fail, than attempt nothing and succeed - Fortune Cookie

 

"The critical shortage here is not stuff, but time." - Johan Ekdahl

 

"Step N is required before you can do step N+1!" - ka7ehk

 

"If you want a career with a known path - become an undertaker. Dead people don't sue!" - Kartman

"Why is there a "Highway to Hell" and only a "Stairway to Heaven"? A prediction of the expected traffic load?"  - Lee "theusch"

 

Speak sweetly. It makes your words easier to digest when at a later date you have to eat them ;-)  - Source Unknown

Please Read: Code-of-Conduct

Atmel Studio6.2/AS7, DipTrace, Quartus, MPLAB, RSLogix user

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NoviceAtmelAVRUser wrote:

How does Attiny 2313 measure up as being your typical AVR chip?

 

I've always been fond of the 20-pin DIP AVRs, ever since the 90S1200 (still have a few lying around!).  One thing that the 2313 did for me that some of the 28-pin DIP versions didn't was, with the accessories I was using (UART, external Xtal) providing an unmolested 8-bit bus, delightful for interfacing with all kinds of other logic chips - Even with the old ISA bus from a PC!

 

But they're right, it's hardly typical anymore.  No ADC, and it's a thru-hole part.  Time to get with the 21st century, I guess.

 

theusch wrote:

Anyway, arguably the "best" 20-pin AVR is the Tiny1634.

 

I actually wasn't aware of that one, so I looked it up, and sure enough, if you use UART 1, you can still have an external XTAL and an unmolested 8-bit bus.  Highly cute lil' chip.

 

But it's not available in a DIP package.  Some of my systems actually require sockets - the ISP pins have other uses and often paralleled between multiple AVRs, which are programmed elsewhere and then installed - and lord help you with sockets for SOIC chips.  They exist, but are fearfully expensive.  There are other ways too - Put it on a schmartboard or something, and plug that into a socket - &c, but it is a quantity of extra hassle I can do without.

 

So I'm going to throw my +1 to the tiny2313.  It may not be the most "typical", but I think for basic AVR stuff (not including ADC, of course) it's by far the easiest to get into fiddling about with.  And that, although it was the 90S1200 at the time, got me into AVRs in the first place.

 

S.

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Is the "20 pin" thing just arbitrary or is there some solid reason for drawing the line there?

 

The best "learning AVRs" are almost certainly 28pin: 48/88/168/328 and 40pin: 164/324/644/1284. Both are "families" so you can start with the biggest in each family (328 / 1284) and learn the ropes then for specific designs pare things back to the smaller models for an implemented design.

 

Anything under 28pin is going to be a "Tiny" not a "Mega" and they are "Tiny" in the sense that they are cut down with some/many interesting features removed (small details like the MULtiply opcode!)

 

You can learn in mega and then transfer the knowledge you learn there to selected tiny's when you have an application that demands small space or cost.

 

As mentioned above the 328P is the core of most Arduino so that just gives you a ready made 328P development board to program in Asm or C or C++ or Basic or Ada or Pascal or whatever your heart desires or even "Arduino" (which is just C++ anyway).

 

Another good way to get a dev board with a micro that's easy to learn are the Atmel "Xplained" boards. It's not just happy coincidence that Atmel have chosen to make 328P and 1284P Xplained boards that not only come with the chip mounted on a well designed board (if Atmel don't know how to then who would!) but they include a debugger so you are getting the equivalent of an Atmel-ICE thrown in for almost nothing making them the perfect learning tools.

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clawson wrote:

Is the "20 pin" thing just arbitrary or is there some solid reason for drawing the line there?

10 toes + 8 fingers + 2 thumbs = .....

 

Ross McKenzie ValuSoft Melbourne Australia

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  +1 for mega328

 

But I write this because I'm not sure my self for which to use the old design 328 328P ... and then the new 328PB that eveyone should know is DOES NOT have the exact same power pins.(could give PCB problems)

But it has a lot of extra things and is cheaper, so I guess that the future is the PB version.

 

Add

And I have to say I often start with a 1284 (on a good old stk500), mainly because the 16K of RAM, so I can make some real time sample buffers, so I see how the world looks like from the AVR's perspective.   

 

Last Edited: Thu. Feb 2, 2017 - 10:37 AM
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Mega8535 chips have 44 pins, and come in cheerfully socketable PLCC packages.  They're usually my go-to chip these days, if still a bit primitive by "modern" AVR standards.  S.

 

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valusoft wrote:

clawson wrote:

Is the "20 pin" thing just arbitrary or is there some solid reason for drawing the line there?

10 toes + 8 fingers + 2 thumbs = .....

 

 

Yes,  and if you aim carefully,  you can shoot off a few toes to make your life more uncomfortable.

If you continue on this path,  you can remove a few fingers too.

 

You can make projects with a 6-pin ATtiny4 or an 8-pin ATtiny13 but it is not a pleasant environment.

 

It is far more convenient to develop a project on a ATmega328P,  ATmega1284 and then pare it down for the smallest,  cheapest target.

The XMINI and XPRO dev kits are excellent value for prototypes.

 

A PLCC44 package seems the worst of all worlds.   Especially with an obsolete AVR.

I like the ATtiny1634 and the ATtiny4313 but I would not choose to learn with them.  Likewise the ATtiny25/45/85.

 

David.

Last Edited: Thu. Feb 2, 2017 - 11:42 AM
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Scroungre wrote:
But it's not available in a DIP package.
Chip Quik have adapters for SMD-to-DIP 0.6in (15mm) wide.

QFN is easier with a hot air rework station otherwise (QFP, etc) with one's soldering iron.

Scroungre wrote:
... sockets for SOIC chips.  They exist, but are fearfully expensive.  There are other ways too - Put it on a schmartboard or something, and plug that into a socket - ...
fyi, apparently all of Silego's GreenPAK products are QFN but it's recognized that breadboarding and prototyping would be difficult so have low price QFN-on-DIP and QFN sockets.

But, for 20 pins it's 2mm*3mm 0.4mm pitch GreenPAK instead of 3mm*3mm 0.4mm pitch AVR.

 


Chip Quik

Chip Quik

QFN-20 to DIP-20 SMT Adapter (0.4 mm pitch, 3.0 x 3.0 mm body)

http://www.chipquik.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=3100112

Silego Technology Inc.

Silego Technology

GreenPAK Low Cost Tools

http://www.silego.com/buy/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=68

...

20-pin DIP Proto Board.

...

Silego Technology Inc.

Silego Technology

SLG4SA20DS-20x30 - $20.000

http://www.silego.com/buy/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=66&products_id=565

...

Socket adapter.

 

For use with :

...

- STQFN-20 (2.0 x 3.0 mm) Dual Supply GreenPAK

 

"Dare to be naïve." - Buckminster Fuller

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david.prentice wrote:

It is far more convenient to develop a project on a ATmega328P,  ATmega1284 and then pare it down for the smallest,  cheapest target.

The XMINI and XPRO dev kits are excellent value for prototypes.

 

Until you have to solder the darn thing to the target board and then test* it. 

 

Doubtless a fine approach if you have a gang of assembly grunts with a reflow oven and don't care about board respins, but, well...  No.  That is not how to learn, that is how to be efficient in production long after you have mastered the basics.

 

S.

 

* For putting a scope on really fine pin spacing, use a clip lead.  One end on the scope probe, the other clip onto an X-acto knife blade.  The capacitance is horrible, but it works...  S.

 

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Scroungre wrote:
The capacitance is horrible, but it works...  S.
Less capacitance if there's a ground pin or pad nearby :

Douglas Smith, DC to 1 giga Hertz probe

via

High Frequency Measurements Web Page
Douglas C. Smith

DC to 1GHz Probe

http://emcesd.com/1ghzprob.htm

 

"Dare to be naïve." - Buckminster Fuller

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Developers

 

This is why I asked about 20 pin.

 

http://microcontrollershop.com/p...

 

Chip must be supported by software that works with programmer.

 

Thanks!

 

 

Imagination rules the world-Napoleon

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NoviceAtmelAVRUser wrote:
Developers This is why I asked about 20 pin. http://microcontrollershop.com/p... Chip must be supported by software that works with programmer. Thanks!

By itself, that makes little sense.

 

It has a "5x2 pin STK500 compatible ISP connector " so you can connect to any AVRISP setup that supports that, or adapt to the 6-pin interface if desired.

 

The cost is a quite high multiple of the cost of a populated Arduino clone.  And that will generally come with bootloader preloaded for another programming option.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Enhancem...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ATmega32...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pro-Mini...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/UNO-R3-A...

...

 

20-pin AVR8 models are quite limited in resources.

 

clawson wrote:
As mentioned above the 328P is the core of most Arduino so that just gives you a ready made 328P development board to program in Asm or C or C++ or Basic or Ada or Pascal or whatever your heart desires or even "Arduino" (which is just C++ anyway).

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

I've never met a pig I didn't like, as long as you have some salt and pepper.

Last Edited: Thu. Feb 2, 2017 - 07:56 PM
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Theus

 

I just got to thinking about that, it does say STK500 compatible so why not

 

just select STK500 in Atmel Studio?

 

Here's the programmer we bought already.

 

http://microcontrollershop.com/p...

 

Why do they have link for Ponyprog?

 

I also have Arduino and AVR Butterfly questions.

 

Thanks!

Imagination rules the world-Napoleon

Last Edited: Thu. Feb 2, 2017 - 08:34 PM
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NoviceAtmelAVRUser wrote:

 

Here's the programmer we bought already.

 

http://microcontrollershop.com/p...

 

 

This fossil programmer needs a classical paralel port on PC.

Today's computers haven't any.

 

Why do they have link for Ponyprog?

It probably can be used with Ponyprog programming software.

Last Edited: Sat. Feb 4, 2017 - 08:38 AM
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NoviceAtmelAVRUser wrote:

 

Developers

 

This is why I asked about 20 pin.

 

http://microcontrollershop.com/p...

 

Chip must be supported by software that works with programmer.

 

Thanks!

 

 

This is 2017, the Arduino has been around for several years now. Why does anyone bother with boards like this and separate programmers? This kind of thing dates back to 2007 or earlier, not 2017.

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clawson wrote:
This is 2017, the Arduino has been around for several years now. Why does anyone bother with boards like this and separate programmers?

My thoughts exactly!

 

However, the OP seems determined to experience the "old ways" - so that he can appreciate the benefits of the "new ways":

 

NoviceAtmelAVRUser wrote:
We're trying to 'connect the dots' from when we were going at in the 90's to the present.

 

Would be happy using the 'old' stuff to get a hands on idea of the advantages of the new stuff.

 

https://www.avrfreaks.net/comment...

 

A bit like the old joke with the man banging his head against a brick wall ...

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Developers

 

Just to clear this up. We'll be doing a project with an Attiny 13 but after that it's wide open field.

 

The 20 pin board was just first in order.

 

Duly noted about good 28 and 40 pin candidates.

 

I think separate boards are  the way to go. Don't want to rely on a multi dip socket board like a STK500

 

because if it gets fried you sit there twittling your thumb waiting for new one to get there.

 

Thanks!

Imagination rules the world-Napoleon

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But the point we've all been trying to make is that to prototype these days you just buy a $5 Arduino from eBay. They are almost a "throw away" price.Get a Nano if you want something smaller.

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ATtiny2313 is a very versatile device. I extracted "water from stone" using it with assembly. The ATtiny4313 has same features with more memory.

Both are not expensive, extremely flexible pin features and efficiency. By a little, almost the power source pins are converted in usable pins. Very clever design. Dip package allows the use of sockets and change of FW by replacing component. They may be programmed outside of the board and inserted in the sockets latter in another production phase.

 

But if the project grows and a C language is needed or desirable I suggest the use of the ATMEGA32 TQFP44 device. Small footprint and a lot of pin and package compatible devices (TOP DEVICE: ATMEGA1284P). The TQFP44 package is very flexible and may even be solded by hand in low production volume.   

Devices with more or less memory and some other resources. Very good balance of pin count, size, cost and features. May be used with assembly and C, without having do shrink the code to fit into device memory. Good RAM and EEPROM size too. The ATMEGA32 & Company allows the use of good bootloaders to simplify FW upgrades in the field. 20 count pin devices are not recommended in such cases. Bootloaders (mainly cryptografic ones) take a lot of program memory. TQFP package needs to use a inboard programming ISP or JTAG interface, at least to program a bootloader.

Since the device line is very flexible, using this line may be usefull to have less stock parts. One CPU model may be chosen to be used as preferencial choice for other projects, even if the project does not need all resources or memory. In small production volumes this may reduce costs and avoid having SMT packages being held open for a long time, that needs to use  

ovens to dry the chips before SMT soldering.

 

 

Eng.Marco Aurélio Carvalho

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Maurelio

 

Attiny 2313 was one of the 'winners' when I checked price and if it came in DIP form.

 

I'm learning Assembler too.

 

'This operation is called "NOP" or "No operation". NOP by the way is a mnemonic representation for the binary 0000.0000.0000.0000 or hexadecimal 0000.'

 

Just threw that in for fun.smiley

 

I will look into 32. Just to see what this 'Bootloader' stuff is all about.

 

Thanks!

 

 

Imagination rules the world-Napoleon

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Bootloader is a program that you start with a special procedure (ex: turning power on with a switch pressed) and that may download the content of the flash memory using a serial port or other interface. It needs that the CPU can write a section of the flash memory while still executing program in another section. This type of procedure allows that final user can update software. Like updating cel phones operacional systems.
I use today only 2 special circuit boards equiped with AtMEGA32 line that with change in some components and software I may use in a lot of different aplications or products. It is better than having many optimized different boards.

Eng.Marco Aurélio Carvalho

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Marco why do you keep on pushing the OLD Mega32 and not the NEW Mega324P which is from the same family as the ATMEGA1284P you mentioned above? wink

John Samperi

Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.

www.ampertronics.com.au

* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly

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Marco

 

Thank you for the concise rundown on 'Bootloader'.

 

Kept seeing it all over net.

 

That AtMEGA32 looks like a good chip to add to our collection.

 

Looks like it's about $3 from Mouser.

 

Some of the old PIC's they are 'holding for ransom' $6-10.

 

Did see on Atmel datasheets some chips said they could use Bootloader.

 

Thanks!

 

Bob

 

 

Imagination rules the world-Napoleon

Last Edited: Sun. Feb 5, 2017 - 08:30 PM
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NoviceAtmelAVRUser wrote:
That AtMEGA32 looks like a good chip to add to our collection.

It's an old chip that Atmel just never got around to EOL-ing.

 

Look ate the Mega324 like John recommended...Better family tree.

 

And you can put a bootloader in ANY AVR that supports it.  You just need to look at the datasheets to see.  In the 324 and its family they all support a bootloader.

 

 

Jim

I would rather attempt something great and fail, than attempt nothing and succeed - Fortune Cookie

 

"The critical shortage here is not stuff, but time." - Johan Ekdahl

 

"Step N is required before you can do step N+1!" - ka7ehk

 

"If you want a career with a known path - become an undertaker. Dead people don't sue!" - Kartman

"Why is there a "Highway to Hell" and only a "Stairway to Heaven"? A prediction of the expected traffic load?"  - Lee "theusch"

 

Speak sweetly. It makes your words easier to digest when at a later date you have to eat them ;-)  - Source Unknown

Please Read: Code-of-Conduct

Atmel Studio6.2/AS7, DipTrace, Quartus, MPLAB, RSLogix user

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Jim

 

jgmdesign wrote:
Look ate the Mega324 like John recommended...Better family tree.

 

Yes. I'm keeping track of 'Upgrade path'.

 

Thanks!

 

Bob

 

Here's a fun piece of Assembler.' 0000 0000' Great place to start!

 

'This operation is called "NOP" or "No operation". NOP by the way is a mnemonic representation for the binary 0000.0000.0000.0000 or hexadecimal 0000.;

Imagination rules the world-Napoleon

Last Edited: Sun. Feb 5, 2017 - 11:18 PM
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NoviceAtmelAVRUser wrote:
'This operation is called "NOP" or "No operation". NOP by the way is a mnemonic representation for the binary 0000.0000.0000.0000 or hexadecimal 0000.;

 

SO basically you are telling us that all these threads you have started, and we are answering are for nothing, as a NOP does nothing but waste time...... Oh the irony!

 

Jim

I would rather attempt something great and fail, than attempt nothing and succeed - Fortune Cookie

 

"The critical shortage here is not stuff, but time." - Johan Ekdahl

 

"Step N is required before you can do step N+1!" - ka7ehk

 

"If you want a career with a known path - become an undertaker. Dead people don't sue!" - Kartman

"Why is there a "Highway to Hell" and only a "Stairway to Heaven"? A prediction of the expected traffic load?"  - Lee "theusch"

 

Speak sweetly. It makes your words easier to digest when at a later date you have to eat them ;-)  - Source Unknown

Please Read: Code-of-Conduct

Atmel Studio6.2/AS7, DipTrace, Quartus, MPLAB, RSLogix user

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I was buying ATMEGA32 at a distributor that already supplies another client with a huge mensal amount. So the price was very interesting. But the board is compatible and also designed to use the new 324/1284 family. One of my applications does not need a better CPU, so the atmega32 with good price is more interesting.
For other applications , where I use a tcp board at isp interface, the ATMEGA1284P is the choice. The pin mapping of the CPU takes in consideration the additional features of the ATMEGA1284 family.
For low volume production (small company as mine) , the purchase volume lot , import fees, distributor policies make a great price variation, distorting the value relation between devices.
The chineses at Ali Express may supply a lot of such components at hundreds units with prices very low. They buy at great quantities getting very low prices and distribute to the world small quantities to a miriad of consumers. No one compete with them for prototype or low volume lots.

Eng.Marco Aurélio Carvalho

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I uploaded a photo of my board for you to see.
It has a variety of mounting options and interfaces.

Attachment(s): 

Eng.Marco Aurélio Carvalho

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Marellio

 

Thank you!

 

Jim

 

Gee, could you stay 'On the sunny side of life'.

 

Think you were working overtime to get that out of adding a snippet of assembler.

 

Thanks!

 

Bob

 

Imagination rules the world-Napoleon

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Murellio

 

No! No!

 

I can't look at your board again.smiley

 

I'm building simple breadboard project.

 

That board is waaay out there for us.

 

Nice board.smiley

 

Bob

Imagination rules the world-Napoleon

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'This operation is called "NOP" or "No operation".

Which of course is a lie as the program counter is incremented so there is at least one operation. 

John Samperi

Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.

www.ampertronics.com.au

* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly

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John

 

It's a mystery to me.

 

Just starting out learning assembler.

 

This Gerhardt Schmidt tutorial gets 5 stars from me.

 

http://www.avr-asm-tutorial.net/...

 

Like the old ads for mail order courses it guarantees I'll

 

be an expert with Assembler in 90 days. :)

 

Bob

 

 

 

 

Imagination rules the world-Napoleon

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be an expert with Assembler in 90 days.

It has taken me over 30 years....and still not an ex-spurt.

John Samperi

Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.

www.ampertronics.com.au

* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly

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jgmdesign wrote:

And you can put a bootloader in ANY AVR that supports it.

 

There's even one bootloader out there that will run on AVRs that don't support them.

 

http://jtxp.org/tech/tinysafeboo...

#1 Hardware Problem? https://www.avrfreaks.net/forum/...

#2 Hardware Problem? Read AVR042.

#3 All grounds are not created equal

#4 Have you proved your chip is running at xxMHz?

#5 "If you think you need floating point to solve the problem then you don't understand the problem. If you really do need floating point then you have a problem you do not understand."

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Just a general warning.

Yes mega32 is old, and you should use a mega324. While there was small differences between 324 324P 324A and 324PA.

324PB is very different, and the main thing is that it has an other pin  layout about power, and can't run 20 MHz from a crystal. on the other hand it has many good things added, and is cheaper. 

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Sparrow2

 

Thank you.

 

I've divided this up into 3 phases.

 

The early chips, transition chips and current chips.

 

Will end up with 'hotrod' chips someday.

 

Going to get some hands on experience with Attiny13A and

 

then a lot of this stuff will make more sense.

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

 

Imagination rules the world-Napoleon

Last Edited: Mon. Feb 6, 2017 - 07:35 PM
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The early chips, transition chips and current chips.

One thing to watch out for is that the Newer, Fancier chip can be cheaper than the older, legacy chips.

For example, the ATmega328PB is currently about 25% cheaper than the ATmega328P (digikey, in 1s.)  Even though the PB has more features (extra UART, extra TWI, extra timers, extra GPIO.)

 

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West

 

Figured out family's of AVR.

 

Tiny, Mega and Xmega. Leaving out 32 bit.

 

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDet...

 

Ordered this with some Tiny's.

 

Bob

 

Imagination rules the world-Napoleon