Starting my Own PCB house,

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Ali_dehbidi
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Posted by Ali_dehbidi: Wed. Jun 11, 2014 - 10:59 AM
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Dear all
I wanted to start a PCB house, I need this capability's for it,
First of all it's actually two Manufacturing lines, one for low tech and low cost designs which would be used for 4layer and lower, 6mil track and space,and 0.3mm hole size,
The second line should be used for higher tech PCB's
I want it to be able to do at least 2 or 3 mil space/width, 0.1mm hole size and have a laser drill capability too,Impedance control and embedded passives capability's, and could do at least 32 layers,Also I should be able to do flex PCB's as well.

So what equipments do you suggest to buy,
Any Ideas are welcome.

I love Digital
and you who involved in it!

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Learning and Information, General Electronics
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Kartman
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Posted by Kartman: Wed. Jun 11, 2014 - 11:44 AM
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I can see you've carefully researched and created a business plan. Seriously, how many million do you have and can you actually purchase the machines? You also need experience on running the machines. Does iran have a large enough market to justify your costs?

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Ali_dehbidi
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Posted by Ali_dehbidi: Wed. Jun 11, 2014 - 12:00 PM
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Quote:

I can see you've carefully researched and created a business plan. Seriously, how many million do you have and can you actually purchase the machines? You also need experience on running the machines. Does iran have a large enough market to justify your costs?

Thanks,I have enough money, Let's say more than 1 milion USD,Also Iran have the market,but actually I'm thinking selling globally!So any Idea? for the first 100 ideas,I will put them in my inspiration list and I will give very good discount for their jobs.Also if you have any special requirement that will concern you every time that you would want to order the PCB would be good too.

I love Digital
and you who involved in it!

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meslomp
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Posted by meslomp: Wed. Jun 11, 2014 - 12:35 PM
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are you sure you are allowed to export such goods?
and also can you assure that you will always be available from outside iran?
I do not want to move this discussion/question to the political side, but Iran is still more or less not considered to be a trusted country for a large number of reasons. (special concerns I have in this is the possible lock down of the internet/postal system)

also are you sure you can always get enough of the materials needed to create a PCB?

you will need a lot of special machinery. you need to be able to make some sort of negative/positive for the coper location. you need to have a machine to align the multiple layers. machine that will do the copper fixing/extracting on the PCb a machine that will put the wanted finish (Silver/HAl/Gold) on the bare copper. cleaning machines to keep/make the PCB clean between stages.
machine to put on the solder mask(multiple colors?)
A system for running an electrical check of the PCB (are all the copper connections present).

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Ali_dehbidi
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Posted by Ali_dehbidi: Wed. Jun 11, 2014 - 01:15 PM
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Please do not forget that we already have lot's of manufacturing houses already in Iran,Also who says I wanted to build the house in Iran?

I love Digital
and you who involved in it!

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meslomp
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Posted by meslomp: Wed. Jun 11, 2014 - 01:26 PM
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good point Ali,

but do you think you can compete with the very cheap chineese market then?
I have seen a large quality increase from these sites over the last couple of years.

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RickB
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Posted by RickB: Wed. Jun 11, 2014 - 02:26 PM
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Take an example of a complex and a simple board that you might consider making. get a quote from a Chinese pcb house for each. Could you make it for the same or less?

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John_A_Brown
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Posted by John_A_Brown: Wed. Jun 11, 2014 - 03:10 PM
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I'd start with a hammer, but I'm no expert.

Four legs good, two legs bad, three legs stable.

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stevech
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Posted by stevech: Wed. Jun 11, 2014 - 06:23 PM
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Ali_dehbidi wrote:
Dear all
I wanted to start a PCB house, I need this capability's for it,
First of all it's actually two Manufacturing lines, one for low tech and low cost designs which would be used for 4layer and lower, 6mil track and space,and 0.3mm hole size,
The second line should be used for higher tech PCB's
I want it to be able to do at least 2 or 3 mil space/width, 0.1mm hole size and have a laser drill capability too,Impedance control and embedded passives capability's, and could do at least 32 layers,Also I should be able to do flex PCB's as well.

So what equipments do you suggest to buy,
Any Ideas are welcome.

Wrong forum for this question.

And... the success lies in the marketing and capitalization, not engineering.

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KitCarlson
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Posted by KitCarlson: Wed. Jun 11, 2014 - 07:47 PM
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You could start on the marketing side, by gathering orders, and have them made in China. I think many already do that.

There are likely process chemical safety and hazardous waste diposal issues.

It all starts with a mental vision.

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DocJC
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Posted by DocJC: Wed. Jun 11, 2014 - 08:19 PM
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In addition to the above, you might consider just starting with the <= 4 layer wide tolerance PCBs. Then, when you have experience in the business, both making the PCBs, and in marketing and sales, and the internet for PCB submissions, and for financial transactions, then think about expanding to do the PCBs with more layers and tighter tolerances.

You need to walk before you run. Embedded passives and flex PCBs would be last on the list, Phase III.

JC

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jgmdesign
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Posted by jgmdesign: Wed. Jun 11, 2014 - 08:28 PM
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stevech wrote:
Ali_dehbidi wrote:
Dear all
I wanted to start a PCB house, I need this capability's for it,
First of all it's actually two Manufacturing lines, one for low tech and low cost designs which would be used for 4layer and lower, 6mil track and space,and 0.3mm hole size,
The second line should be used for higher tech PCB's
I want it to be able to do at least 2 or 3 mil space/width, 0.1mm hole size and have a laser drill capability too,Impedance control and embedded passives capability's, and could do at least 32 layers,Also I should be able to do flex PCB's as well.

So what equipments do you suggest to buy,
Any Ideas are welcome.

Wrong forum for this question.

And... the success lies in the marketing and capitalization, not engineering.

Well Ali is not advertising he can make boards, and he is not quoting pricing either so the trading forum is not where it belongs. The general electronics forum on the other hand would be a better fit.

I would rather attempt something great and fail, than attempt nothing and succeed - Fortune Cookie

 

"The critical shortage here is not stuff, but time." - Johan Ekdahl

 

"Step N is required before you can do step N+1!" - ka7ehk

 

"If you want a career with a known path - become an undertaker. Dead people don't sue!" - Kartman

"Why is there a "Highway to Hell" and only a "Stairway to Heaven"? A prediction of the expected traffic load?"  - Lee "theusch"

 

Speak sweetly. It makes your words easier to digest when at a later date you have to eat them ;-)  - Source Unknown

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Atmel Studio6.2/AS7, DipTrace, Quartus, MPLAB, RSLogix user

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ignoramus
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Posted by ignoramus: Thu. Jun 12, 2014 - 02:02 PM
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Right now is a great time to purchase equipment on the used market.
Great aspirations 1 mil space feature dimensions and 0.1mm holes.

Go for it.

You will need amongst otehr bits of equipment..

Chemical processing lines and chemical waste treatment lines.. especially so if You set up somewhere where environmental vandalism is a no no.

Next cab off the rank..mechanical processing... drilling routing linishing punching pressing equipment and anciliary support equipment ( compressed air and air handling equipment along with either electric /gas fired hot oil or electric resistive heating for multilayer press)

Now for yellow room equipment..photoplotters of suitable quality to image one millfeatures and controlled atmosphere in whihc to do it so the film does not shrink or expand too much.

And now for exposure equipment, film frames, film registration punching tools.
You might also wish to go for a laser drilling capability to make those 0.1mm holes.

I am sorry but You will need a deal sight more than one million dinars.

OH I forgot.. well I kindof aluded to it by specifying yellow room.. I did not mention all the other rooms..like chemical and testing laboratoty ( rooms).. rooms to do clean exposure, rooms to do clean activation of holes, rooms to do soldermask silkscreening or dry film lamination..rooms to...rooms to...meet a variety process requirements say electrical testing....BUZT.. and here is the rubYou will need people..specialists in their fields to set up and institute processes so the equipment does the best work it can.

Your better option is send me Your gerbers for a competitive quote on quick turn boards

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toalan
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Posted by toalan: Fri. Jun 13, 2014 - 06:22 AM
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This guy always posts wacked out pie in the sky pipe dreams.

I get 10 pcs of 5cm x 10cm PCB from china for $20 delivered to my door, 6 mil trace/space, 12 mil holes. Can you even ship 10 pieces of PCB within your own country for $20? Can you ship internationally for $20?

If you gave me free PCBs and shipping, I would still rather get my PCBs made in china because if I accepted your offer there would be white vans parked all around my house and I would be on the no fly list.

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ignoramus
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Posted by ignoramus: Fri. Jun 13, 2014 - 07:30 AM
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Making PCBs is not just a matter of money.

Like any other manufacturing game it involves a certain amount of prior knowledge and intellectual property.

Ali has been given some hints as to what is needed and he must decide on what he wants to do.

On the other hand world politics are something that is artificial and imposed by vested interests not by truth, justice and human way. Just keep in mind when ever two parties clash neither is innocent.

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stevech
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Posted by stevech: Sat. Jun 14, 2014 - 07:34 AM
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toalan wrote:
This guy always posts wacked out pie in the sky pipe dreams.
More realistic goal is... get hired by SpaceX.

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valusoft
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Posted by valusoft: Sat. Jun 14, 2014 - 10:35 AM
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toalan wrote:
This guy always posts wacked out pie in the sky pipe dreams.
I think you are being a bit harsh there Alan. Those who aim low are bound to achieve it...

Ross McKenzie ValuSoft Melbourne Australia

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Ali_dehbidi
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Posted by Ali_dehbidi: Sat. Jun 14, 2014 - 11:25 AM
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Thanks for your responses,But I did not asked you the selling problems or if I'm aware of chines companies with low prices, I said I wanted to build a manufacturing line, which equipment and from which manufacturer do you suggest?Do you have any ideas to lower the cost of building the line?
Please let me solve my problems,like selling, exporting,importing,hiring people, shipping on a budget etc...

I love Digital
and you who involved in it!

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Brutte
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Posted by Brutte: Sat. Jun 14, 2014 - 12:10 PM
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Quote:
I said I wanted to build a manufacturing line

That is ok, but as with any topic, freaks want to believe in the the feasibility of the final goal. Without that the topic is just another science fiction novel.
So if you want (my) hints then first you have to convince (me) your goal is within your reach.
Otherwise I would consider that as trolling.

No RSTDISBL, no fun!

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ignoramus
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Posted by ignoramus: Sat. Jun 14, 2014 - 02:01 PM
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Ali,

Convince me.
Cross my palm with silver and I will provide You with expertise and guidance in process selection and subsequent equipment procurement.

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Ali_dehbidi
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Posted by Ali_dehbidi: Mon. Jun 16, 2014 - 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Convince me.
Cross my palm with silver and I will provide You with expertise and guidance in process selection and subsequent equipment procurement.

Thanks, How should I convince you? How can I show you that I have enough money?

I love Digital
and you who involved in it!

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ignoramus
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Posted by ignoramus: Tue. Jun 17, 2014 - 05:47 AM
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Ok Ali,
Here is the challenge.
I do not need to know how much money You have.
What is needed is a clear concise and relatively binding specification statement from You defining the plant capability.

The spec needs to identify and justify process capability such as minimum feature sizes, hole sizes, copper thickness,surface finish, quality control and inspection applicable standards ( hint check out IPC website ) production volume ( square meters/day )of single sided, double side, multilayer board. Number of layers in multilayer product, range of materials the plant ought to be able to process ( FR4 plus other more or less exotic materials ), maximum PCB size.

In the meantime, with Your other hand keep informed about current PCB shops going belly up ( like a dead fish ) by subscribing to Go Dove and a few other international equipment brokers and auction houses ( they will want Your money ) to see what equipment ( used ) has come onto the market.

It will take You some time to recognise just how diverse the PCB fabrication processes are.

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ignoramus
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Posted by ignoramus: Wed. Jun 18, 2014 - 10:31 PM
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Ali to help You along the way...

http://www.thebranfordgroup.com/DNN3/Auction/rjrc0514.aspx

is a record of a previous complete plant sale.

Do Your research, check the budget and then decide how major a player You can afford to be.

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ignoramus
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Posted by ignoramus: Fri. Jun 20, 2014 - 10:22 PM
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Ali,

Another business going tits up...

http://www.thebranfordgroup.com/DNN3/Auction/WIDE0714.aspx

note this is a multi faceted auction including PCB fabrication line.

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hugoboss
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Posted by hugoboss: Mon. Jul 7, 2014 - 11:51 PM
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As an engineer, personally if I had the resources you have, I would set about designing my own line equipment to suit my particular needs. You would probably make more money designing efficient and precise line equipment than you will ever do selling PCBs.

If your goal is just mass production of PCBs, hire some folks to set it up for you in China or India, provide capital and oversee it. When you have the money you don't need to bother with the engineering. As others have said, this market is hyper-competitive, you do not make large margins unless you provide something unique.

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ignoramus
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Posted by ignoramus: Wed. Jul 30, 2014 - 10:17 PM
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Hello Ali,

Here is yet another opportunity to see what range of equipment, processes and technical skills are needed...Oh.. and a chance to purchase the equipment

http://app.liqimg.com/e/es?s=152...

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ignoramus
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Posted by ignoramus: Mon. Sep 29, 2014 - 09:17 PM
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Here is another chance to  make Your PCBs...

 

 

http://www.thebranfordgroup.com/...

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ignoramus
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Posted by ignoramus: Wed. Oct 1, 2014 - 08:52 PM
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And another...

 

http://international.go-dove.com...

 

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ignoramus
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Posted by ignoramus: Thu. Oct 9, 2014 - 09:23 PM (Reply to #28)
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and another one...

 

http://international.go-dove.com...

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awneil
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Posted by awneil: Thu. Oct 9, 2014 - 09:29 PM
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OK, I think we get the idea!

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ignoramus
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Posted by ignoramus: Thu. Oct 9, 2014 - 09:50 PM (Reply to #30)
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The frequency with whihc these offers are being made is significantly lower than it was say four.. five years ago.

It is a measure of just how bad/competitive/hungry things are out there in the industry

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jgmdesign
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Posted by jgmdesign: Fri. Oct 10, 2014 - 01:42 AM
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This thread was quietly dying months ago and the OP has not been heard from since June and yet some still feel the need to prove a point?

 

I think we got the hint so enough already 

I would rather attempt something great and fail, than attempt nothing and succeed - Fortune Cookie

 

"The critical shortage here is not stuff, but time." - Johan Ekdahl

 

"Step N is required before you can do step N+1!" - ka7ehk

 

"If you want a career with a known path - become an undertaker. Dead people don't sue!" - Kartman

"Why is there a "Highway to Hell" and only a "Stairway to Heaven"? A prediction of the expected traffic load?"  - Lee "theusch"

 

Speak sweetly. It makes your words easier to digest when at a later date you have to eat them ;-)  - Source Unknown

Please Read: Code-of-Conduct

Atmel Studio6.2/AS7, DipTrace, Quartus, MPLAB, RSLogix user

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