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 Posted: Mar 11, 2010 - 05:43 AM |
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Joined: Feb 10, 2009
Posts: 283
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Hello,
I've been searching and searching, and would ultimately like to know, is there an avr programmer that can:
1) Be powered by only usb
2) can power the target board via the same usb (important!)
3) can program ISP
4) can optionally do debugWire
5) is either a genuine atmel product, or can be used with avr studio seamlessly with updates etc etc without me having to change boot loader or firmware in a way different than for example the stk500.
Point #4 would be nice, but isnt necessary. I'm also skeptical about the AVR dragon since I've only ever heard bad things 
USBtiny mkii
http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/c ... _index.php
This cant do point #4, but can it do point #5?
Pololu
http://www.pololu.com/catalog/product/1300
Cant do point #4, can it do point #2 and #5?
USBprog
http://www.embedded-projects.net/index.php?page_id=165
Cant do point #4, can it do point #2 and #5?
Can the AVRISP mkii power the target board via usb?
I wish these points were more obvious for the programmers out there!
Help appreciated,
Tom |
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Posted: Mar 11, 2010 - 05:57 AM |
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Joined: Mar 27, 2002
Posts: 9264
Location: Lund, Sweden
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Quote:
I'm also skeptical about the AVR dragon since I've only ever heard bad things
There is a second generation of Dragons out now that allegedly has the vulnerable power supply re-designed. |
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Posted: Mar 11, 2010 - 06:47 AM |
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Joined: Mar 28, 2001
Posts: 12827
Location: Sydney, Australia (Gum trees, Koalas and Kangaroos, No Edelweiss)
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| So you will be providing a programmer with every board you make so that the board doesn't need to have it's own power supply. That will be expensive. |
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John Samperi
Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.
www.ampertronics.com.au
* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly
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Posted: Mar 11, 2010 - 10:54 AM |
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Joined: Jan 23, 2004
Posts: 6964
Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
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Quote:
USBtiny mkii
http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/c ... _index.php
This cant do point #4, but can it do point #5?
That one uses my firmware. It ticks all your boxes except for the last two - it doesn't implement debugwire (no debugging at all, only programming), and to upgrade the firmware you have to use Atmel's FLIP software instead of AVRStudio (but the process is very simple). It's entirely AVRStudio-compatible however, so beyond the occasional update that I make it works just as well as the real AVRISP-MKII.
- Dean  |
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Posted: Mar 11, 2010 - 02:08 PM |
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Joined: Mar 27, 2002
Posts: 9264
Location: Lund, Sweden
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Quote:
and to upgrade the firmware you have to use Atmel's FLIP software instead of AVRStudio (but the process is very simple).
[bitter voice]Which is just fine as long as Flips actually works. My experiences are not of that nature[/bitter voice]
This has nothing to do with your firmware Dean! But if you ask me, then Flip is a piece of crap. |
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Posted: Mar 11, 2010 - 02:10 PM |
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Joined: Feb 10, 2009
Posts: 283
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Quote:
So you will be providing a programmer with every board you make so that the board doesn't need to have it's own power supply. That will be expensive.
Maybe you've miss understood. For example, what I meant was something like USBtiny mkii; it supplies the target board. But its also only $33 with shipping.
How bad is flip exactly? |
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Posted: Mar 11, 2010 - 02:24 PM |
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Joined: Mar 27, 2002
Posts: 9264
Location: Lund, Sweden
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Quote:
How bad is flip exactly?
These are my experiences, YMMV: Using the Atmel USBKey, when trying to connect to that Flip simply exits without any message whatsoever.
It is like the software designer did this in the PC app (sketchy):
Code:
void main()
{
try {
runTheApp();
}
catch (Exception e)
{
// Do nothing
}
}
(My apologies if this is not the exactly correct Java syntax, but I am currently deeply involved in a .NET/C# project at work).
Anyway, some error condition is probably not handled, and definitively not reported to the user. |
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Posted: Mar 11, 2010 - 08:01 PM |
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Joined: Nov 29, 2007
Posts: 2706
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Flip on Windows does work for me. Flip on Linux doesn't. So I use dfu-programmer v0.5.2 on Linux http://dfu-programmer.sourceforge.net/
The software could need some polishing, but does the job for me. Or maybe someone takes the time to add the dfu function to avrdude. |
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Posted: Mar 11, 2010 - 09:03 PM |
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Joined: Mar 28, 2001
Posts: 12827
Location: Sydney, Australia (Gum trees, Koalas and Kangaroos, No Edelweiss)
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Quote:
it supplies the target board.
But that was exactly my point. In real life the target will have it's own power supply so why is that part so important to you?
Why do you want to develop something that does NOT reflect the real application? |
_________________
John Samperi
Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.
www.ampertronics.com.au
* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly
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Posted: Mar 11, 2010 - 10:39 PM |
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Joined: Feb 10, 2009
Posts: 283
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Ah hah,
because, I work and debug on my laptop a lot in more than just one place. I want it to be portable, but I don't want the necessity of an external battery. And yes, I realize the laptop runs on a battery, but to comfort those minds that are extremely particular, I am minimizing the number of things I need.
How 'dangerous' is it to mod the AVRISPmkii as such:
http://www.webx.dk/avrisp-mk2-modding/index.htm
or
http://www.ehow.com/how_4998924_provide-v-power-target-board.html
?
Do you think one could mod the Dragon in a similar way? This updated Dragon you speak of, have you heard of any new problems though supposedly one issue has been now solved? |
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Posted: Mar 11, 2010 - 10:42 PM |
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Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 33138
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
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| But a bit of 4 strip veroboard shoved into any USB socket on your laptop has Gnd and +V on the two outer lines - just use that to power any circuit while programming it. |
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Posted: Mar 12, 2010 - 04:45 AM |
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Joined: Mar 28, 2001
Posts: 12827
Location: Sydney, Australia (Gum trees, Koalas and Kangaroos, No Edelweiss)
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The Dragon has 6 pins for target power 3@+5V and 3@GND.
But the point I'm making is that a bad power supply implementation in the final product will mess up any work you have done. So I would test the target as it would finally be working with it's own power supply, whatever shape that comes in. |
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John Samperi
Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.
www.ampertronics.com.au
* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly
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Posted: Mar 12, 2010 - 10:43 PM |
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Joined: Feb 10, 2009
Posts: 283
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But does the Dragon itself have its own power supply or is it USB powered too?
js: i dont prefer your method of powering (ie use what youre going to). in my experience, I've generally just over supplied (from a computer power supply), and dealt with the changes after wards. I realize USB is likely underpowering if anything, but I also make the point to you that I dont necessarily know what im going to be making. so in terms of just making code and debugging it via uart (without anything else connected), then usb powered target is a pretty attractive option.
clawson: true, but i want to save usb ports - I only have two, so I dont want to occupy one with a programmer, and another with target power. id rather have them combined. |
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Posted: Mar 13, 2010 - 01:04 AM |
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Joined: Mar 28, 2001
Posts: 12827
Location: Sydney, Australia (Gum trees, Koalas and Kangaroos, No Edelweiss)
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Quote:
But does the Dragon itself have its own power supply or is it USB powered too?
Is it too much for you to look up the Help file for the Dragon in Studio? |
_________________
John Samperi
Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.
www.ampertronics.com.au
* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly
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Posted: Mar 13, 2010 - 01:33 AM |
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Joined: Feb 10, 2009
Posts: 283
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Hehe, of course not, but this forum post didn't start with an exclusive discussion of the Dragon. I was just going with the flow.
So I'm still curious about the last post - hacking the programmer to feed the target with usb power... I posted two links. I'm not really into hardware but was wondering if there is any particularly obvious danger in doing something like that? |
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Posted: Mar 13, 2010 - 01:38 AM |
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Joined: Feb 10, 2009
Posts: 283
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My god, the Dragon looks amazing. Is there anything more to know about it other than the supposedly new design regarding not burning it out as easy?
Any problems other than "cant use in vista/7"? I run xp still so I dont care about that fix just yet |
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Posted: Mar 13, 2010 - 02:20 AM |
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Joined: Mar 14, 2006
Posts: 472
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js wrote:
Quote:
it supplies the target board.
But that was exactly my point. In real life the target will have it's own power supply so why is that part so important to you?
Why do you want to develop something that does NOT reflect the real application?
Hey js,
I think the OP is in software development mode right now and has no need for the exact hardware. I develop software for industrial vehicles and large generators.I have never used a "real" power supply during the development process. I have even developed code and tested code for embedded systems on a PC because there was no hardware available. Developing software and programming a chip on a prototype is entirely different than testing the finished unit with power most likely coming in from a harness somewhere. |
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Posted: Mar 13, 2010 - 04:27 PM |
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Joined: Feb 10, 2009
Posts: 283
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| Someguy22 - clearly I lack the capability to explain myself. What you said is correct regarding software development. |
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Posted: Mar 13, 2010 - 05:03 PM |
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Joined: Feb 19, 2001
Posts: 18830
Location: Wisconsin USA
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Quote:
So I would test the target as it would finally be working with it's own power supply, whatever shape that comes in.
Nah. (And you'll agree with me once you get a little more experience with AVRs.  )
There are a couple drawbacks to "programmer powered". Certain regulators don't like to be "back powered", so we avoid them. And certain parts of the app, especially with some kind of split power such as 12V backlight, may not work the same or at all.
But I'd say 90% of my apps can do 90% of functions when programmer-powered. That lets me do much of my dev/test without the whole target app machine. In particular, the menu system and whole UI can be thrashed out.
For mains apps, it is safer when poking at the gusts of the new app. Now, not an issue for all you sparkies I guess.
The USB-powered criterion is fine, I guess--as long as you have a wimpy app that stays below 100mA. It might work for you but not for the real world.
(to js and others: With my controller buried deep inside the app and the control board buried "deeper" than the mains electrical connections for motors and the like, I doo indeed prefer to have the mains off when reaching in with my ISP cable. And I've lived longer than you have and remain that way.)
What we do is add a regulated DC wall-wart to the app side of the ATAVRISP2 ISP cable. That supplies ISP power when not convenient to be app powered. If app powered, leave it unplugged and no harm. Cost: like $5.
I guess that assumes there are mains nearby. The only other reason I can think for all the criteria of the OP is laptop-only far from civilization.
Lee |
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Posted: Mar 13, 2010 - 09:06 PM |
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Joined: Feb 10, 2009
Posts: 283
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Well it seems this discussion has begun a different topic than what I started it with.
In conclusion I think the AVR Dragon looks like an amazing tool and will purchase it. It has everything I want and more in fact. I can always add protective circuitry if I feel the fear of destruction.
PS: Given that all distributors of the Dragon have pictures of generation 1, how will I know if I'm getting the newer board version?
Cheers!
Tom |
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Posted: Mar 13, 2010 - 09:20 PM |
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Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 33138
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
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Posted: Mar 13, 2010 - 09:29 PM |
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Joined: Jul 29, 2008
Posts: 184
Location: NYC
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| How long would it take to build a small portable 3v/5v battery pack anyway? It could even be rechargeable. It would weigh a few ounces. |
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Posted: Mar 14, 2010 - 04:16 PM |
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Joined: Feb 10, 2009
Posts: 283
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Clawson:
Actually what I meant was: "How can I guarantee that the board I buy is of the newest generation"? Digikey? They still have the generation 1 photo though.
I don't want to buy blindly and receive the old version.
Tom |
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Posted: Mar 14, 2010 - 04:22 PM |
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Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 33138
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
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Quote:
I don't want to buy blindly and receive the old version
Does the country where you live not have consumer protection law for "distant purchases". In the UK (and I think this is maybe across the EU?) there's a 7 day period of grace which is to give you the equivalent of if you went into a shop where you could look at the product before finally committing to it. If you don't like the look of something you bought from the internet you have 7 days to return it for a full refund. I think the regulations see you should even get P&P refunded but I'm not sure you can be sure of this but the worst is that you end up paying the return P&P - does your country not have a law something like this?
EDIT: using my mod powers I can see which country you are in and after a bit of Googling it seems you get a legal 15 day period in fact - better than here! (I always thought that was a very nice country!) |
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Posted: Mar 14, 2010 - 04:27 PM |
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Joined: Feb 10, 2009
Posts: 283
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I have never heard of anything like this before, but I don't often order off the internet anyway. I live in Canada.
Even so, suppose I buy from Digikey, receive the old Dragon, then return it and say "this isn't the new one, look at the following sites for proof". Then I would go to Atmel's other distributors in hopes of finding an updated picture to show Digikey how wrong they are. Then I would struggle because no body has a picture of the new Dragon on their site!
I suppose I could email Digikey and request... something to verify that its a new Dragon? Do you know what I could ask to verify this?
Cheers,
Tom |
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Posted: Mar 14, 2010 - 04:32 PM |
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Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 33138
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
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I think your fears are unfounded - most distis are only likely to have the modern inventory, especially a place like Digikey with rapid stock turn over.
As I say, I like Canada a lot - my wife and I are thinking of taking a vacation there to take in some of the amazing scenery - the winter Olympics must have helped a lot to put Canada on the map (not that a country that size really needs it!  ) |
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Posted: Mar 14, 2010 - 04:37 PM |
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Joined: Feb 10, 2009
Posts: 283
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Alright, if you think its unnecessary to worry, I trust your opinion and will just go for it.
I appreciate your help (and everyone else's on this topic).
Canada is great
And if you're planning to go to BC, you won't regret it! Georgian Bay is another fantastic spot (on my top 10 list). |
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