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 Posted: Dec 26, 2008 - 07:00 PM |
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Joined: Nov 22, 2002
Posts: 12041
Location: Tangent, OR, USA
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We see this kind of post again, and again, and again:
"My (application or hardware) doe not work. Please help me!"
Alas, almost NO help can be provided to such requests. There can be many causes for incorrect operation. We simply cannot guess which of the many possible causes might fit your situation.
If you are having problems, here are some suggestions to get more prompt and more accurate help, Following these will also avoid the ire of "The Curmudgeons of the Freaks List" (tm).
1. Tell us WHAT you are trying to do. That is, please tell us (a) what you have done, (b) what you expected to happen, and (c) why you think that (a) should result in (b)!!
2. Provide us with CODE. Don't hand copy the code, but copy and paste, so that errors are preserved. Use the code buttons at the beginning and end of the code listing (works best if you click the code button, paste the code, then click the "end-code" button at the end). This will make it much easier to read and others will be more likely to look at it. If the code is big (maybe more than a 50-100 lines or so), reduce the code to a small version that demonstrates the same problem. Make sure that the code you provide COMPILES! PLEASE, tell us what compiler or assembler and what version you are using.
3. Tell us how the FUSES are set and what you use as a clock source.
4. Tell us what PROCESSOR you are using.
5. Tell us if you have tried to SIMULATE the operation of the code. If you did, tell us what you found.
6. Provide us with some DETAILED OBSERVATIONS about what it is or is not doing. This should relate to 1(b)(, above. "Doesn't work" covers a lot of territory! Is your LED off when it should be flashing, is your motor turning or not. Tell us what test equipment (volt meter, oscilloscope, etc) are available to you, what measurements you have actually made, and what the measurement results were.
7. If you have some suspicions about why it does not work, tell us what the evidence is for your diagnosis.
8. If you think that there is a hardware problem, provide a circuit diagram. Or, tell us what development board you are using and HOW you connect to it.
9. We understand that language is often a problem.. We understand that it is hard to understand specification sheets and application notes if you are not good at English [Note: its often not easy for those of us who speak English as our first language!]. If this is a major problem, please consider a board that uses your native language. When language is an issue, PLEASE ask your question the best way you can and tell us what you HAVE read.
10. PLEASE do NOT use shorthand "texting" language. Spell words out as real words and use a spellchecker. You will get faster and better help if you do. Also, "The Curmudgeons" will not make rude remarks about your post.
11. Words like "urgent", "ASAP", "I need it very quickly" and so forth do NOT get you good answers. All capitals, many question marks or exclamation marks don't help either. Asking the same question several times (duplicate post) will make a very bad impression.
Edited with suggestions from ArnoldB and JohanEkdahl. |
_________________
Jim Wagner
Oregon Research Electronics, Consulting Div.
Tangent, OR, USA
"The only thing standing between us and victory is defeat" P.G.Wodhouse in Wooster & Jeeves series
Last edited by ka7ehk on Dec 27, 2008 - 12:40 AM; edited 2 times in total
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Posted: Dec 26, 2008 - 07:25 PM |
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Joined: Nov 29, 2007
Posts: 3219
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Quote:
1. Tell us WHAT you are trying to do.
1a. Tell us what you are doing
1b. Tell us what you expect to happen
1c. Tell us your theory why you think doing 1a should result in 1b happening. Note, "because I want it to happen", or "because that's what I mean", are not valid answers. Provide us with your reasoning (e.g. including references to documentation) why doing 1a should result in 1b in your opinion.
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2. Provide us with CODE.
2a Provide us with short code. If possible, reduce your code to a short example just demonstrating your problem. Often just the process of creating a short example reveals to you what's wrong, so you won't even have to ask.
2b Provide us with complete, compilable code. Yes, the code should be short, but not to short. It should be compilable out of the box. [To do so, also tell us your compiler.]
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5. Provide us with some DETAILED OBSERVATIONS about what it is or is not doing.
5a. With reference to 1c, tell us why you think this observation is not in line with the theory of operation you have given in 1c.
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9. We understand that language is often a problem.
10.
9a. Have you considered using a board in your own language if English is to difficult?
10a. / 9b. Use a spell checker.
11. Don't make an idiot out of yourself
Don't ask the same question multiple times. Don't whine. Don't rant. Don't change your nick name to something else. Don't use all caps or other strange formatting. Don't use multiple exclamation marks or question marks. Don't behave as being entitled. Don't treat the people here as your servants. Don't be impatient (adding "urgent" or "ASAP", or "I need ... now / until" to your posting won't gain you anything). Don't under any circumstances expect people here to do your homework. |
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Stealing Proteus doesn't make you an engineer.
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Posted: Dec 26, 2008 - 08:08 PM |
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Joined: May 18, 2008
Posts: 13
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ka7ehk wrote:
We see this kind of post again, and again, and again:
"My (application or hardware) doe not work. Please help me!"
Yes, please help, it's urgent {, sir}!
There is only one serious flaw here - people who ask questions like this ( worded like this) tend not to read sticky threads. |
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Posted: Dec 26, 2008 - 09:39 PM |
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Joined: Dec 07, 2008
Posts: 347
Location: germany
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Posted: Dec 26, 2008 - 09:51 PM |
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Joined: Mar 27, 2002
Posts: 18537
Location: Lund, Sweden
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Quote:
a sticky won't stop all threads like this.
No, but it will be a lot easier to answer them. Just point them to the sticky.. |
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Posted: Dec 26, 2008 - 11:21 PM |
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Joined: Nov 22, 2002
Posts: 12041
Location: Tangent, OR, USA
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I was hoping that those that do get through could be pointed to a sticky without having to ruffle feathers, bring up the curmudgeon persona, etc.
Arnold has made some great suggestions. Thanks!
Jim |
_________________
Jim Wagner
Oregon Research Electronics, Consulting Div.
Tangent, OR, USA
"The only thing standing between us and victory is defeat" P.G.Wodhouse in Wooster & Jeeves series
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Posted: Dec 27, 2008 - 12:14 AM |
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Joined: Mar 27, 2002
Posts: 18537
Location: Lund, Sweden
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2b. Please try to reduce the code to the smallest possible that displays the problem you are facing. By doing this you will get more people interested, and will stand a better chance of getting prompt help. In the process of minimizing the troubling code, you might well solve the problem yourself - and that is a great learning experience and much more satisfying than getting the answer from someone else.
11. Please do not tell us that it is URGENT! You will come through as asking for special treatment, or that you have mis-planned your project (or worse, your school assignment). |
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Posted: Dec 27, 2008 - 02:58 AM |
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Joined: Feb 19, 2001
Posts: 25897
Location: Wisconsin USA
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Quote:
4. Tell us what PROCESSOR you are using.
4a. Tell us what language you program in.
4b. Tell us what brand of toolchain you use.
4c. Tell us the version(s) of this toolchain.
4d. If pertinent, include messages from the toolchain, major build options, and the like.
Lee |
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Posted: Dec 27, 2008 - 03:04 AM |
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Joined: Nov 17, 2004
Posts: 6137
Location: Great Smokey Mountains.
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Posted: Dec 28, 2008 - 04:39 PM |
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Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6065
Location: Long Island New York
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Jim,
Great Sticky!! I think another part that we need to know is what equipment the person is using. STK500 etc.
The 'other' Jim |
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
Timer function not working properly? Check CLKDIV8 Fuse first 
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Posted: Dec 28, 2008 - 04:50 PM |
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Joined: Nov 29, 2007
Posts: 3219
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ka7ehk wrote:
...(c) why you think that (a) should result in (b)!!
... All capitals, many question marks or exclamation marks don't help either.
jgmdesign wrote:
Jim,
Great Sticky!!
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Stealing Proteus doesn't make you an engineer.
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Posted: Jan 04, 2009 - 07:39 PM |
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Joined: Sep 04, 2002
Posts: 21257
Location: Orlando Florida
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| "Help! My ... doesnt work!" My only advice is if it starts working, and works for more than 4 hours, get a cocktail and a smoke. |
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Imagecraft compiler user
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Posted: Jan 21, 2009 - 02:10 AM |
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Joined: Jul 04, 2001
Posts: 59
Location: Sydney, Australia
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May I suggest that a shell script or some other utility to capture key information together with a predefined partial source code capture of THE non-working code [a user appointed segment] which is then posted together with the newbies request for assistance - would be a excellent help - to both the newbie and the guru trying to assist. We have computing resources, why not put them to good use 
This way people trying to assist others will get a standard of known facts, which can be added to and greatly improved over time. Ultimately, we need to make any assistance to others in need a less taxing task IMHO.
I know this is relatively easy in Unix/Linux/OSX worlds, but it is over to Windoze Gurus' to make their mark and to provide same.
Ultimately, Atmel could then embed such a process into their own IDE products to improve Technical Support response.
My 2c. |
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Cheers Grahame
Last edited by WildPossum on Jan 21, 2009 - 11:53 PM; edited 1 time in total
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Posted: Jan 21, 2009 - 09:53 AM |
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Joined: Mar 27, 2002
Posts: 18537
Location: Lund, Sweden
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As long as we are talking AVR Studio the project, rinsed from generated intermediate files and binaries, is generally not very large. Studio could have a simple function to package the project in a ZIP that could be attached here, and it could create a file with all the pecularities (version numbers etc).
IIRC there is some functionality to package at least parts of a avr-gcc project through the makefile produced by Mfile. |
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Posted: Jan 22, 2009 - 12:10 AM |
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Joined: Jul 04, 2001
Posts: 59
Location: Sydney, Australia
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In Linux some packaging would be relatively simple other bits not. It all depends on what is required to be captured, and the ease of accessing same -
I would suggest that the following details be captured for a start:
Code:
* OS + release/version;
* OS AVR programs + release/version especially the compiler and its AVR libraries;
* AVR Programming Language + Libs + release/versions;
* Host H/W details including CPU, Memory (Heap, Cache, Resident);
* Target H/W details including CPU + CPU signature, Memory, I/O, Firmware levels, ISP Mode details (Fuses, Lock Bits etc) as per Studio4 -> Tools -> Program AVR dialogs;
* Any Debug devices attached (AVRJTAGmkII, AVRONE! etc);
Anyone else wanting to add to the list
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Cheers Grahame
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Posted: Jan 22, 2009 - 08:45 AM |
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Joined: Mar 27, 2002
Posts: 18537
Location: Lund, Sweden
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In Linux [...]
GNU/Linux has it's advantages and disadvantages. One advantage that I think that I observe is that the lowest level of competence is higher for GNU/Linux users than for Windoze users. I'll stick my ugly head out and claim than 90% of the "Help, my mojo is not working" posts are from Windows users. And if you'd have to ask for additional information about the machine, toolchain, environment etc you're much more likely to get a good answer in one round trip from a G/L user than from a W user. The former are just more technically seasoned..
(For the record, I'm mainly a Windows user ) |
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Posted: Jan 22, 2009 - 05:00 PM |
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Joined: Dec 30, 2005
Posts: 2327
Location: Fort Collins, CO USA
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JohanEkdahl wrote:
I'll stick my ugly head out and claim than 90% of the "Help, my mojo is not working" posts are from Windows users.
I'll take that bet. My guess is that the percentage of both of these groups asking for this kind of help is roughly the same. I certainly see a lot of "Help, my compiler is broken" messages from Linux users, since they have to chase down all of the patches while the Windoze users get to install WinAVR and step over that problem.
I'm actually both a Windows and Linux user. Warped personality, ya know.
Stu |
_________________
Engineering seems to boil down to: Cheap. Fast. Good. Choose two. Sometimes choose only one.
Newbie? Be sure to read the thread Newbie? Start here!
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Posted: Jan 22, 2009 - 09:45 PM |
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Joined: Mar 28, 2001
Posts: 20347
Location: Sydney, Australia (Gum trees, Koalas and Kangaroos, No Edelweiss)
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Quote:
I'll stick my ugly head out and claim than 90% of the "Help, my mojo is not working" posts are from Windows users.
Because 90% of computers use Windows??  |
_________________
John Samperi
Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.
www.ampertronics.com.au
* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly
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Posted: Jan 23, 2009 - 12:47 AM |
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Joined: Jul 04, 2001
Posts: 59
Location: Sydney, Australia
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I can understand the comments above, but as yet no one has addressed in detail my suggestion - OK, it is a real bummer of a suggestion and a crock of .... - I can openly accept that (cause I too am both a Windoze and Linux user of least resistance)
Its really about whether or not we want to help oursleves in helping others more effectively, as I am not one with loads of time on my hands (have any of us really got that priviledge - Nope! NOT according to my better half or family), but I do enjoy giving back to the community - Its same electronics + DIY community of yesteryear that got us all started off into electronics/computing etc. I suspect.
Anyhow, quickly back to the slaves' desk before anyone sees me "relaxing and not doing much" as "thinking" usually gets a bad wrap with the boss |
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Cheers Grahame
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Posted: Jan 25, 2009 - 02:06 AM |
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Joined: Nov 22, 2002
Posts: 12041
Location: Tangent, OR, USA
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I will massage all of the suggestions, including Grahame's, and rework the top post.
Jim |
_________________
Jim Wagner
Oregon Research Electronics, Consulting Div.
Tangent, OR, USA
"The only thing standing between us and victory is defeat" P.G.Wodhouse in Wooster & Jeeves series
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