| Author |
Message |
|
|
 Posted: Jun 17, 2007 - 09:44 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
hello everyone,
It's a shame for me to ask such a dumb question.
according to my calculations, a pack of two 2400 mAh AA batteries should be able to operate for one hour supplying 2400 mA current on 3V. This means that to let device work for a month, it should consume not more than 2400/(24*30)=3,(3) mA.
this result seems to be very strange to me, because there are a lot of devices, such as pagers, mp3 players, watches, which can operate for even longer period with lower-capacity batteries... is it because these devices are so power-saving or have i made something wrong with my calculations?
I want to build a watch, which obviously needs to work constantly, and this issue makes me doubt if that's even possible. i've already abandoned the idea to use 14 LED diodes to visualize time in binary code, but this idea still is welcomed to be supported against faggy lcd decimal presentation.
anyone has a clue how to make it work for at least one month?
thank you! |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 17, 2007 - 09:50 PM |
|
Joined: Nov 22, 2002
Posts: 12193
Location: Tangent, OR, USA
|
|
For long operating times, think of micro-amps, not milli-amps!
Most of these use some sort of idle or sleep mode with very low current. The device wakes up when a button is pushed or something else happens. Then, after there is no use for some specified time interval, it goes back to sleep.
LED watch simply won't do what you are asking, with the LEDs on all the time. Maybe, with a little button to push and it shows time for 5 seconds, or such.
Jim |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 17, 2007 - 11:37 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
thanks for your advice! do you think it is possible to put ATTiny into sleep between counting another seconds? will the external timer be essential to wake it up? what accuracy can i get with a device operating in such way?
my wish was to make it show time constantly, but even with the latest 1mA PicoLED(R) it is not possible. I'm still experimenting with the balance of brightness and resistance put on 3mm LEDs. if this fails, and the search for low-powered LCDs will also fail, most probably it'll end up with such a button you mentioned. |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 17, 2007 - 11:51 PM |
|
Joined: Dec 17, 2005
Posts: 1500
Location: Europe- Estonia- Tallinn
|
|
maybe you can get a hold of a "cereal box" wrist watch. those 1$ costing things sometimes have an LCD on them. You could use that to get ultra low power. LEDs aren't made to be low power sadly. I know. I used 2 7segment LED displays on my last project and it almost eats through the AA batteries.  If low power is needed, then an LCD is a must (for any display). Also you have to use all sorts of sleep modes. Every time you wait something, you have to sleep. You won't use _delay_ms(x) command but rather _sleep_ms(x), what you have to make your own probably. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 18, 2007 - 12:30 AM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
ok, i'll try to learn from datasheet how much time does it spend on waking up and falling asleep to find proper sleep time. thanks.
my other idea is to aid battery by solar cells like this one:
http://www.allegro.pl/item204954024_ogniwo_sloneczne_70ma_bateria_sloneczna_.html
(just scroll down to see technical spec.)
i could afford buying few of those. do you think this could work in cobination with small condenser? if it would, how could i make it? do i need at least six of those to be helpful or less than 3V is not useless too?
how about using that cells to power the lcd seperately? please comment those ideas, thanks a lot!
EDIT: i came into an idea to fully supply lcd by those solar things, and in case of darkness manually power the lcd from battery for the fixed duration. what do you think? |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 19, 2007 - 10:19 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
| how about using external 32kHz oscillator to make attiny work less? is it going to save up significat amount of precious uAmps? please comment! |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 19, 2007 - 10:37 PM |
|
Joined: Dec 17, 2005
Posts: 1500
Location: Europe- Estonia- Tallinn
|
|
better use highest clock possible. Takes more amps when running, but gets faster back to sleep, in witch clock is turned off anyway  |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 19, 2007 - 11:41 PM |
|
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6211
Location: Long Island New York
|
|
Keep in mind also the battery chemistry, is it ni-cad or Ni-MH, or Li-ion. Nicads do self dischrge amazingly fast and have a memory effect.
The 240mah is a figure in which the rate of draw/time to a certain capacity is given. A 1.5v aa cell is considered dead at 1.2v. You are correct in your thought that 2400mah is 2.4amps draw should last an hour, but i like to hedge the better side of caution and say 70% of the rating.
Rinning the tiny at 32khz is also a good idea. it won't use as much juice, and you won't need to divide the clock to much to get your timing references.
Jim |
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
I am trying to 'C' the light. One function at a time.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 20, 2007 - 02:36 AM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
thank you both for advice. i guess i'll need to run some tests (when i finally have my devices shipped) with fast sleep reaction and dead slow rating, but honestly i guess the crystal will probably consume much enough to be useless in power saving. or is there a way to run tiny at 32kHz without using external oscillator?
for now i consider GP T-154 2,4V 300mAh battery pack, or GP T-113M 3,6V 320mAh (or such, those are Ni-MH), and put a 4,5V power input onboard to charge it, let's say, once a week, if only it's possible.
taking into consideration Jim's advice 320*0.7/24*7=4/3[mA]. now that's the quest.
on the other hand, i doubt if 2,4V or 3,6V are enough to power the lcd. do you know if there are graphic LCDs running less than 5V?
thanks again for all your good will. |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 20, 2007 - 02:40 AM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
| um... another thing. is there a way to make tiny wake up itself after putting it into sleep? how could i make it asleep and still measuring a second for me? is it possible without external crystal? thanks! |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 20, 2007 - 04:34 AM |
|
Joined: Mar 28, 2001
Posts: 20630
Location: Sydney, Australia (Gum trees, Koalas and Kangaroos, No Edelweiss)
|
|
| The Ampere/Hour rating is usually given for a 20 hour period, so a 2.4A battery would give you 120mA per hour for 20 hours. |
_________________
John Samperi
Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.
www.ampertronics.com.au
* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 20, 2007 - 05:55 AM |
|
Joined: Aug 29, 2006
Posts: 229
Location: Kingston, Jamaica
|
|
One way I think you could do this is with a low power RTC chip. Have it wake the uC every second, the uC outputs the time to the LCD then goes to sleep waiting for the next wakeup call.
Edward |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 20, 2007 - 06:57 AM |
|
Joined: Apr 01, 2004
Posts: 3812
Location: New Mexico
|
|
|
futrtrubl wrote:
One way I think you could do this is with a low power RTC chip. Have it wake the uC every second, the uC outputs the time to the LCD then goes to sleep waiting for the next wakeup call.
I done this with good results with a DS1306 outputting a 1Hz signal. Another advantage of low power RTC chip like the DS1306 is they usually accept battery backup so you can power down your MCU and associated circuitry without losing the current time. |
_________________
Kevin Rosenberg
http://b9.com
http://kevin.hypershots.com
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 20, 2007 - 11:18 AM |
|
Joined: Dec 17, 2005
Posts: 1500
Location: Europe- Estonia- Tallinn
|
|
For clock I use DS32C35 from Maxim/Dallas.
Integrated 32.768kHz Crystal
♦ Fast (400kHz) I2C Interface
♦ RTC Counts Seconds, Minutes, Hours, Day, Date,
Month, and Year with Leap Year Compensation
Valid Up to 2100
♦ RTC Accuracy ±2ppm from 0°C to +40°C
♦ RTC Accuracy ±3.5ppm from -40°C to 0°C and
+40°C to +85°C
♦ Nonvolatile Memory with 10 Years of Guaranteed
Backup Time and Write Protection
♦ Two Available Densities of Nonvolatile Memory
2048 Bytes (DS32B35)
8192 Bytes (DS32C35)
♦ No Cycle Limitations on Memory
♦ Power-Switching Circuit Selects Between Main
Power and Battery Backup for the RTC
♦ Programmable Square Wave with Frequency of
32.768kHz, 8.192kHz, 4.096kHz, or 1Hz
♦ Two Time-of-Day Alarms
♦ Reset Output/Pushbutton Reset (Debounced)
Input
♦ Programmable Output Provides Interrupt or
Square Wave
♦ Calibrated 32.768kHz Open-Drain Output
♦ Temp Sensor with ±3°C Accuracy
♦ 3.3V Operating Voltage
♦ Backup Battery input with charging capabilities (when power is back on the Vcc lines)
♦ 20 pins, 9 of them are N/C
I like it. It's still running on the Lithium cell I charged for it a month ago. Can't say the time though. Don't have a display on the board just the chip with the battery and pins for TWI for prototyping use.
Also the cost isn't very high. I got that as a sample (a few of those actually).
Also you can get all sorts of LCD's that work on 1.5V also. you should really go shopping and find yourself a small wristwatch for kids. you know those with mickey mouse images etc. cost is about 1$. those run on low voltage probably. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 20, 2007 - 01:50 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
1Hz clock sounds better than the 32 kHz I suggested. i googled DS1306 and it costs enough to take a special care of it, so i'll refer back to this forum about using such stuff when i get things ready to build it.
i also googled both DS32C35 and DS32B35 but there were no results in polish, probably meaning i'll have problems to get it here. but i'll doublecheck in the store to make myself sure.
about the lcd, i'd rather have one manually switched on than a faggy kid wristwatch display  thanks anyway for the clue. i'm still thinking about solar cells to power lcd exclusively, and installing a button letting me temporarily turn on lcd in dark rooms. gosh, seems like this watch will be big enough to cover my forearm 
alright, thanks for all your help, i think i know what to do now. but any other comments are still welcomed! |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 20, 2007 - 03:39 PM |
|
Joined: Dec 17, 2005
Posts: 1500
Location: Europe- Estonia- Tallinn
|
|
| sry if I have missed it, but what are you building? what is the maximum size of your project? (just to make better suggestions) |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 20, 2007 - 05:33 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
a wristwatch, but showing time in binary code. but as folks agreed that diodes consume too much power it's going to be equipped with lcd (graphic, most probably), and in that case i'm going to add some cool functions.
i haven't been thinking about size before, but i guess the only limit is 4,5cm wide, well, maybe not longer than 10cm as well. i'm not going to minimize it too much because i'd like to make it work first.
the choice of avr device is not fixed yet, but i guess one of the smallest attinys should be enough (i performed the calculations for attiny11L). perhaps ill develop in the further future a memory bank to keep graphics for lcd and easily update them.
btw where did you get samples of DS32C35? i'd be interested too, because it might be tough to find it here... |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 20, 2007 - 06:08 PM |
|
Joined: Dec 17, 2005
Posts: 1500
Location: Europe- Estonia- Tallinn
|
|
| examples? no examples available. This is a VERY new chip. I used the datasheet of both DS32C35 and the AVR. If you need, i can show you my codes to write data to it using TWI. Written in GCC. Just let me know and I'll add them here. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 21, 2007 - 03:06 AM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
um, no, thanks, don't bother yourself, i think i won't need it while not having any idea about TWI or GCC things
perhaps i'll just focus on DS1306, check out its power consumption and make a right decision. i wish myself this thing working as i need, otherwise i'll bug you folks again |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 21, 2007 - 03:17 AM |
|
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6211
Location: Long Island New York
|
|
If you are buil;ding a wristwatch with these parts I hope you have a tree trunk for a wrist!! Also, putting your micro to sleep means you will need to have an RTC to keep time. and do not use the 1hz to run the micro, this means every instruction is going to take at least a second to perform.
JS was 100% correct in his amp/hour description. Mine formula is close, ut a tad flawed. What i said about the chemistry is correct though. Also, if this is going to be a wristwatch, then the coin cells are the way to go, but do not try to recharge them!! they will explode
Jim |
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
I am trying to 'C' the light. One function at a time.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 21, 2007 - 05:21 AM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
i think such a big thing is a good way to gain attention on technical university
i'm confused now... i wanted to use 1Hz to wake up micro every second and let it perform operations, it is upgrading its memory content about current time, sending proper data to lcd controller and putting itself back to sleep, but being runned by the internal clock all the time. that's how i understood Edward's idea, and anyone please correct me if i'm wrong.
as Kevin suggested before, i'd like to use DS1306 or such, like 1302 or 1305. friend of mine has already supplied me with some datasheets and i study them to find the best one.
uhhh, i get new ideas about the powering all the time, so maybe to make it straight to all of you, here is my current best option:
attiny and rtc are supplied by rechargable battery, and using DS1305 ability to recharge its power supply the battery will be charged partially by solar cell. another cell will exclusively supply the lcd. but if rct and attiny will use funny uAmps then instead of rechargable pack probably i'll use a cheap model of coin cell, use simplier DS1302, but the lcd will be still dependent from solar cells.
but if someone gives me a good point why not using solar cells, i'll do my best to find a good rechargable battery pack, and put a DC input onboard.
go on guys, you make really good job guiding me and making this project real thank you all for your efforts. |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 21, 2007 - 10:48 AM |
|
Joined: Jan 03, 2006
Posts: 4447
Location: Hemel Hemsptead, UK
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 21, 2007 - 11:31 PM |
|
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6211
Location: Long Island New York
|
|
putting the tiny to bed and waking it up every second is not very efficient. A good idea is to use a coin cell RTC and wake the tiny up with a pushbutton when you want to see the time. The tiny can poll the RTC and then send the time to the led's. SOLAR!? cool.
Jim |
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
I am trying to 'C' the light. One function at a time.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 22, 2007 - 12:30 AM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
hm, sounds reasonably too. but what if i want to make it work without using such a button? i always get annoyed by simple things that need two hands to be operated. is keeping attiny up all the time the only way to achieve this effect?
perhaps that could be done too, the solar cells i checked out produce up to 70mA, so maybe it could serve as the battery charger. or maybe not..? |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 22, 2007 - 01:46 AM |
|
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6211
Location: Long Island New York
|
|
I guess this is no longer a wristwatch.
Here is an idea....make a list of everything you want this clock to do, and post it. Then a practical design can be created.
One good tip, look at the maxim/dallas website for the RTC chips. they will sample just about anything in 5pc quantities for free, and they pay the freight usually!! |
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
I am trying to 'C' the light. One function at a time.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 22, 2007 - 08:04 AM |
|
Joined: May 26, 2004
Posts: 2538
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
|
|
Well to share some practical experience, using a Mega48V, if you run a 32kHz crystal on Timer 2 and wake up on the 1 second counter overflow to keep time, the average power consumption is in the 5 microamp range and it will keep time for a couple of days on the charge in a 0.33F supercap. A solar cell will put enough in the cap for another day if it gets light for half an hour. If the solar cell can deliver several mA you could use one supercap for the time and a second (or perhaps a rechargeable battery) for the display.
You could use a trembler (small weight on a spring contact) to turn on an LED display when you flick your wrist quickly.
A practical point about the Dallas chips (some - I haven't checked them all) is that you can't read them unless the Vcc (main supply pin) is at least a volt higher than the backup supply pin, because they think the Vcc is failing and go into a power-down mode. Unfortunately if you connect the battery to the main Vcc instead of the backup supply pin, the current consumption is quite high. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 22, 2007 - 03:53 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
that's a great news, thanks for those. i've noticed very divided points of view about waking up atmel each second, so what i'm going to do is just check it out myself. if it won't work, i'll try to make it run all the time... somehow.
i've never thought of any capacitors before, i've been always thinking of rechargable batteries. but i guess caps are easier to charge with low current, such as the one produced by solar cells. still, i need to learn more about appropriate usage of such a cap without burning uC.
friend of mine is right now supplying me with philips PCF8583. this circuit quite fits to what you all said about RTC before, operates on dead low current, keeps time and date. Anyway, as Jim adviced, i'll take a look into the maxim/dallas website. even if i won't use them to this project, i know i might need them for other circuits anyway
so, here's the requested idea list:
*LCD graphic display:
1. two options:
-either the ordinary timestamp in text mode or fancy graphic mode (i know it's a lot of code work, but i'm experienced with some languages), or:
-hours, mins and secs presented in binary code, either as 0-1s in text mode or kind of dots or sth in graphic mode.
2. notepad view, triggered by a button shows a png image temporarily instead of an hour. previously the image was meant to be kept in external memory chip, but i thought its hell to hard for such a dumb newbie as me, so probably i'll invest more money in more complex tiny or mega and store the picture file in it, and put onboard kind of input to update those files.
*Other stuff:
1. Solar supply, making the 'clock' maintenance free, if only it's possible,
2.(future plan) add a buzzer onboard and make a metronome function (i'm a drummer), but i guess the previous ideas are complicated enough to give it up for a while. |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 22, 2007 - 08:30 PM |
|
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6211
Location: Long Island New York
|
|
What you are asking for is not that much, hardware wise, the firmware is gonna be a hump. The supercap is a good idea. I did not think of that and the solar cell/cap is a good combo. I am guessing that for the LCD you are going to create custom graphics for the digits.
Jim |
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
I am trying to 'C' the light. One function at a time.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 22, 2007 - 11:30 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
yes, it isn't that much indeed, partly because i've been thinking of making it all in assembler, to have kind of constructive way to spend summer holidays. but uh... we'll see.
your guess was right, i'm going to customize the display format. it depends only on the progress with asm. I've skimmed through the avrfreaks article for newbies and i thought it shouldn't be THAT bad.
so the issue of powering AVR and RTC i guess is solved then, thank you guys!
but i still ned some instructions on how should i connect the supercap, a solar cell, avr and rtc (meaning powering only for now), because i don't think that's as simple as paralell connection of everything altogether.
but let's not forget about lcd. by the way i've found a fancy one:
http://www.sklep.avt.pl/photo/_pdf/LCDGRAF3.pdf
it'd be nice of anyone who could tell me if it's easy to connect to avr, and if it needs a driver or something...
so, about the lcd. my last plan was to power it from the seperate solar battery as well.
Theoretically, the power from the solar cells should be enough for both purposes, but those cells provide 0,5V and 70mA, which needs to be transformed into 5V and minimally 4mA (in case of the LCD). Does anyone have any idea how to do that?
thank you guys again. |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 23, 2007 - 12:07 AM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
| btw peret, are you sure that 0.3F is neccesary to make it work? i guess this is quite much. and expensive. and big. |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 23, 2007 - 12:29 AM |
|
Joined: May 26, 2004
Posts: 2538
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
|
|
|
Quote:
i guess this is quite much. and expensive. and big.
Check the bottom right of this catalog page - at US $1.85 the 0.33F is actually the cheapest when you only buy one or two. As for size, it's 10mm diameter and 5mm thick. There are some 3.3V supercaps that are only 7mm diameter, but I haven't yet found a smaller 5V type. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 23, 2007 - 03:07 AM |
|
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6211
Location: Long Island New York
|
|
You really do not need to run the LCD off of a separate power supply. The 4ma is when the led backlight is on, so if you make that switched, you will be ok. as far as the solar cell/cap thingie, that is a snap. It basically is a parallel connection. do you have the specs on the solar array?
The connection to the lcd from the AVR is easy. What AVR are you planning on using? I think the Tiny you originally were looking at may not be big enough, especially with the custom graphics, but those could be stored in external eeprom.
Jim |
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
I am trying to 'C' the light. One function at a time.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 23, 2007 - 05:02 AM |
|
Joined: Mar 28, 2001
Posts: 20630
Location: Sydney, Australia (Gum trees, Koalas and Kangaroos, No Edelweiss)
|
|
|
Quote:
solar cell/cap thingie, that is a snap.
So this is a wristwatch...will the solar panel be worn on top of the head by the user? Perpas with one on those twilring thingys? Where is Gwen!! She could have come up with the appropriate graphics  |
_________________
John Samperi
Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.
www.ampertronics.com.au
* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 23, 2007 - 05:30 AM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
right, another big note for you folks
following peret's suggestion, i managed to find 5V 0.22F capacitors on internet auction, please take a look:
http://www.allegro.pl/item204767780_kondensator_podtrzymujacy_0_22f_5v_sred_28mmx12_5.html
for further purposes i bought 5 of them. (and paid $1.5 with shipping )
the specifications for the 1st candidate for my lcd is quite poor as i've chosen one of the cheapest, it contains only physical dimentions and pinout. so for powering research purposes i'm presenting you a datasheet for the closest model (maybe even the same) of the same manufacturer. here it is:
http://www.artronic.pl/o_produkcie.php?id=612
as far as i'm concerned, the current of 2mA is used for displaying only, and the backlight needs circa 150mA to operate.
here are the solar cell's parametres:
http://www.allegro.pl/item204954024_ogniwo_sloneczne_70ma_bateria_sloneczna_.html
(bottom of the page)
this thing is quite small, so it'd be a waste of chance to shrink the project physically if i won't transform it into 5V.
i think the atmega is becoming the more justified option every day, with such a speedy ideas development i think i'll need 8 output pins to get along with lcd.
here's my list of current questions:
*how can i transform 0,5V into 5V without bigger losses? will i get lineralily decreased current (10x smaller) or less?
*what are your concepts of using the capacitors and solar cells? how much capacitors and cells would you use, providing the backlight will be switched manually? would you divide the capacitors into uC and LCD suppliers or rather treat them as one? (if you suggest using more than 5 capacitors, please write as soon as possible, i'll try to order more of those to the same shipping)
*my dad keeps a lot of old computer stuff. i remember that being a kindergarden boy i played with multum of different chips, which were used as ram modules back in xt and at computers, 512B each, maybe 1kB, not sure. what is the chance that they are eeproms? btw if they're not, what are those anyway?
*lcd specs tells me to use 8-bit data bus, what is written as the specification of 8 pins. is that meaning that i'll need 8 output pins on my atmega to control lcd?
i can't remind any more questions right now, it's too late already. thanks. |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 23, 2007 - 05:38 AM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
|
js wrote:
will the solar panel be worn on top of the head by the user?
i'm surprised with your sense of sarcasm.
i guess that if i get myself tanned, despite spending all the time possible indoors and during the winter, i could use the unommitable light rays to produce voltage instead of skin diseases, right? |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 23, 2007 - 04:39 PM |
|
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6211
Location: Long Island New York
|
|
THe lcd can operate with either an 8bit bus or 4 bit. You just need to configure the lcd in your code and use the appropriate data lines. for 8bit use all 8, for the 4 bit use the upper 4 bits D4..D7. I can send you the two init files for the lcd, one for 8bit, and one for 4bit, but i only know assembler right now, so that is what you will get
Let me know
Jim
As far as the solar cells go, I suggest a baseball hat, and attach the cells to the brim!! If you are indoors, change all your light bulbs to sunlamps!! HAHA |
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
I am trying to 'C' the light. One function at a time.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 23, 2007 - 08:28 PM |
|
Joined: Aug 20, 2005
Posts: 1109
Location: Pool of Goo
|
|
light reading for those not old enough to remember the Pulsar Watch
or to have worn one.....
http://www.ieee-uffc.org/history/step.pdf
mactom...if you not married to the AVR try the TI MSP430 ...micro designed from the ground up for deep sleep apps...and even Softbaugh..they have a small module with lcd that will probably get the job done..TI even gave away at seminars in the past a module that does just this and more....recently went to a TI MSP430 seminar and still feeling the glow!....for the freaks doesn't the Butterfly fill the OP's need? ..never heard the term "faggy" display in my neek of the woods ....gotta love international forums |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 23, 2007 - 10:43 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
jim, i'd love to see your init files for lcd, put them here or use my e-mail address. thanks!
bluegoo - after all i've learned about atmel you could imagine my determination to use it. and, i used "faggy" to express how not cool are alphanumeric displays in my opinion btw i considered using nokia 3210/3310/etc display, but these are not cheap enough to compensate their small size. |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 24, 2007 - 02:33 AM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
so, i'm kind of engaged with avr, and even if it won't work as well as i plan, i'll be satisfied with my attempt. i guess this topic is getting boring to all of you, so i'd like to re-ask the last question i really need answer for before abandoning it:
Quote:
*what are your concepts of using the capacitors and solar cells? how much capacitors and cells would you use, providing the backlight will be switched manually? would you divide the capacitors into uC and LCD suppliers or rather treat them as one?
please refer to datasheets from my previous post, basically solar cell is 0.5V 70mA, capacitor 0.22F and lcd is 5V 4mA. don't forget about avr and rct.
just to remind you all, thank you all for your efforts to help me do my best with that issue. if someone is interested on further development of this project and would like to help in the future, hit me on priv so i could add some of you to buddies. i promise i won't bug you too often, i've got univ pals to annoy too see ya |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 24, 2007 - 04:38 AM |
|
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6211
Location: Long Island New York
|
|
Jeez, louise, we are doing the kid's homework!!!
I hope the teacher is hot!
I'll post the init files.
Do you want the posts on this forum or to your email? I will provide a very detailed explanation on what they do. |
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
I am trying to 'C' the light. One function at a time.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 24, 2007 - 02:53 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
i think e-mail should be enough, as those won't be found by other newbies here.
to shorten the agony of seeking my address, here it is: mctom@o2.pl |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 25, 2007 - 08:48 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
i got another brilliant idea.
how about using mobile phone display? those must be power-saving, naturally, and i've heard somewhere that nokia lcds are very easy to drive. can someone confirm that?
by the way, i skimmed through the auction portal and they are also cheaper.
perhaps i'd use color display then... |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 25, 2007 - 09:12 PM |
|
Joined: Nov 01, 2005
Posts: 6354
Location: Hilversum - the Netherlands
|
|
|
Quote:
i got another brilliant idea.
Of course that's a brilliant idea. Many other people had it too !
Nokia displays are great for this purpose:
Nokia 3310: monochrome
Nokia 3510: color, but not very brilliant in colors. Reflective type
Nokia 36something: great colors!
All: SPI-interface, 3.3V
A lot of information on the net
Nard |
_________________
Dragon broken ? Or problems with the Parallel Port Programmer ? Scroll down on my projects-page http://www.aplomb.nl/TechStuff/TechStuff.html for tips
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 25, 2007 - 10:32 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
i guess what you meant is 3660, but i've found one, too expensive but anyways this idea seems to be the best, and if you claim that most of them should be atmel friendly then i'll choose most fitting model myself thanks.
SPI-interface are the good news, i guess?
while googling my new idea i found some voices that the driver chip will be needed. is it true? |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 25, 2007 - 10:52 PM |
|
Joined: Nov 01, 2005
Posts: 6354
Location: Hilversum - the Netherlands
|
|
|
Quote:
while googling my new idea i found some voices that the driver chip will be needed. is it true?
Depends on what you mean: these displays have a built-in controller, that's what makes them so nice to use. The type of controller depends on the type of display, and for the Nokia3510 there are two types with each a different controller: Philips and Epson. They did so to make it simple
The displays operate @ 3.3V. The simple way is to have the AVR on 3.3V too. If the AVR is @ 5V, some level-translation is necessary.
You say in your signature: "remember I'm just a beginner!". I wonder if it's wise then to start with these types of graph displays. But of course it's all up to you.
Nard |
_________________
Dragon broken ? Or problems with the Parallel Port Programmer ? Scroll down on my projects-page http://www.aplomb.nl/TechStuff/TechStuff.html for tips
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 25, 2007 - 11:13 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
i've been thinking on supplying minutes ago, and i settled that everything will run 3,3V, avr and the rtc (i already got) should work on it ok. i'll just have stabilizer or sth, because the supercaps i have are 5V max.
well, it's not wise to begin with both graphic LCD AND asm. but i'm quite confident as i've done lots of coding stuff before and i've got the whole holidays to spend on it
i understand that each controller needs another approach and it's up to me to seek for their datasheets/definitions? |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 25, 2007 - 11:23 PM |
|
Joined: Nov 01, 2005
Posts: 6354
Location: Hilversum - the Netherlands
|
|
|
Quote:
i understand that each controller needs another approach and it's up to me to seek for their datasheets/definitions?
If you do a search on this forum and google around a bit, you will find all you need, and if I can help .... you know where I am hanging around
Cheers, and happy holidays !
Nard |
_________________
Dragon broken ? Or problems with the Parallel Port Programmer ? Scroll down on my projects-page http://www.aplomb.nl/TechStuff/TechStuff.html for tips
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 25, 2007 - 11:44 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
that's what i mentioned pal, i guess no one's collecting this stuff.. thanks and see you!
phew... seems like i solved all problems for now. i'll see you later then when i get into mi first asm obstacle
see you and thank you all for your help. |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 26, 2007 - 03:04 AM |
|
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6211
Location: Long Island New York
|
|
MACTOM
I just had a funny idea. If the solar cell does not work out, I saw in a magazine a miniature steam engine. I am going to buy it as I have seen them work in the past. The are really cool. The one I am buying is from England. you could connect it's flywheel to a small dc motor and capacitor and generate enough dc to charge the supercaps. Then when the engine needs refueling, the supercaps take over until the engine is restarted
Like I said it was funny........hmmm i see a project in the future
Jim |
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
I am trying to 'C' the light. One function at a time.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 26, 2007 - 12:50 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
i think i have somwhere a 3.5ccm ether engine used to run models of planes. my dad bought it years ago but never tried to run it. hm.. solar cell i bought is 2.5x5cm so if this won't work i'll probably use a battery as substitutuion.
i'd love to use that engine, but i think that using heavy engine, fuel tank and dc motor fits stationary and outdoor-operating projects more. it fumes and is noisy, which makes it not indoor-friendly power supply.
and as that's a completely freaky idea, i guess i might use it in the future thanks! |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 26, 2007 - 05:16 PM |
|
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6211
Location: Long Island New York
|
|
| no no no the engine I am talking about makes literally NO noise. not a model plane engine, those things are a horror show. What I was gearing at was a binary clock that could run on the little engine. Would make a great item to sell as a desk accessory in one of those high end gadget mags. |
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
I am trying to 'C' the light. One function at a time.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 26, 2007 - 06:25 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
are those engines more or less like the ones presented here?
http://www.tinypower.com/store2.php?crn=56&action=show&show_products_mode=cat_click
i think you mean smaller ones. or not? please post a link to a webpage about the one you got, and i'll search the auctions.
oh, and jim - i guess you forgot sending me the init files you promised.
by the way, this whole thread has gone crazy. we set off at battery packs, through solar cells, tremblers, supercaps, and now discussing steam power how about miniature nuclear reactor? lol |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 26, 2007 - 09:47 PM |
|
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6211
Location: Long Island New York
|
|
Yes, those are the engines. Personally i like the idea of using one of those over the solar cells better. The sucko is the cost. But, considering the amount of cells you are going to need to run your gizmo it is not that bad
I will send the init file tomorrow
sorry about that
Jim |
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
I am trying to 'C' the light. One function at a time.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 27, 2007 - 12:34 AM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
actually i'm going to run it on single $2 cell polish price naturally.
but still, those engines are tricky. i couln't find any in any polish e-shop. and i'm not going to spend two months's wages to buy one
but i'm thinking of that motor i have. and summing up, it's useless.
any other alternative sources of energy? how about making an use of kinetic forces of sewer stuff? |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 27, 2007 - 07:03 PM |
|
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6211
Location: Long Island New York
|
|
|
Quote:
any other alternative sources of energy? how about making an use of kinetic forces of sewer stuff?
That sounds like a "crappy" idea!! |
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
I am trying to 'C' the light. One function at a time.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 28, 2007 - 12:39 AM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
today it's a windy night. guess i'll consider installing a fan-based generator outdoors. well, i'm living 300m away from the baltic sea, that's the reason for heavy blows.
but i'm not using it to run the armwatch
got another idea. if someone's living near the eastern baltic coast, perhaps we could make the marconi's experiment again? isn't bloody-org from estonia? gotta talk to him bout it someday. |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 28, 2007 - 08:44 AM |
|
Joined: Dec 17, 2005
Posts: 1500
Location: Europe- Estonia- Tallinn
|
|
| yes I am. I live 2km from Baltic sea. (currently am 1km from it). But what's that Marconi experiment? |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 28, 2007 - 01:34 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
marconi was the first person to transmit a radio signal over the atlantic sea - from ireland to canada. during this experiment the current weather condition description was transmitted via Morse protocol
that should be easier to do on a way shorter distance. but well, it's illegal now i guess |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 28, 2007 - 02:31 PM |
|
Joined: Dec 17, 2005
Posts: 1500
Location: Europe- Estonia- Tallinn
|
|
| if you can give me a schematic i'll start sending . Have been planning on a weather station of my own |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 28, 2007 - 05:37 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
ok, maybe during the summertime i'll find a group of enthusiasts and mount the receiver based on marconi's project plans ;P
but you'd better aim the sender directly on poland, otherwise the russians might be angry :/
how about asking the discovery channel for sponsorship? |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 28, 2007 - 05:40 PM |
|
Joined: Dec 17, 2005
Posts: 1500
Location: Europe- Estonia- Tallinn
|
|
| Cool. And if you think angry russians will stop me, then you are wrong. I'll aim the damn thing at them and turn the power up until you too can hear it and then I'll give Svofski some kind of shielding. Not that I have anything against them.............. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 28, 2007 - 07:30 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
gee, ok, but don't build anything like antimaterial ray generator or ion cannon instead, coz what i'd receive would be kaliningrad's sos
and we wouldn't get discovery's support on it, brainiacs already do demolition things
btw not long ago i gave you congrats for 666th post, and now you're hopping into outstanding 700. hope i'll get smart enough to get my own 666 too |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 28, 2007 - 10:18 PM |
|
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6211
Location: Long Island New York
|
|
| With regards to the original concept of this thread, which was power, I found an old flux capacitor that could power the clock for 1000 years. Interested? my meter says it has just under 500,000 jigawatts |
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
I am trying to 'C' the light. One function at a time.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 29, 2007 - 12:20 AM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
| sure i am! how big is it? and how much does it cost? |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 29, 2007 - 02:04 AM |
|
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6211
Location: Long Island New York
|
|
Google it first.....
See if it will work for you |
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
I am trying to 'C' the light. One function at a time.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 29, 2007 - 02:54 AM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
alright you won.
should be enough for jigayears then.
and it's not that i actually believe hektoterawatt capacitors, but being used to milis and micros 6-digit number sounded reasonable.
back to lcd sub-thread i'm thinking of nokia's 6610/6610i/3100/6100/7250/7210/7250i/3200 model lcd (yes, it's used in all of those)
i'd be glad to know if these have fancy colors and reasonable size or any other fantastic advantages. and this request is dedicated to Plons i've already googled out that they have various chips and so i'm careful.
jesus, what an ass of me. but at least my girl still claims to love me. she wouldn't notice either |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 29, 2007 - 12:25 PM |
|
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6211
Location: Long Island New York
|
|
Ha HA!!
I could not resist!!
I sat down and thought about your project, which now has reached epic, international proportions. Nice job!!
I had to repair a low voltage walkway light last night for my wife. The light is a solar charged device that uses a clear white LED for illumination. I can remember when white led's first came out, they cost a bundle and needed special ic's to control them. This light uses two size 'AA' rechargable cells, a couple of transistors, and a 74c14 schmitt triggered inverter, and a solar cell for charging the cells. In case you did not notice, I will say it again:"A SOLAR CELL FOR RECHARGING THE CELLS!!!!!"
The solar cell on the assembly puts out in full sunlight about +3.5vdc at low current. That is more than enough to charge the cells during the day. THe circuit draws about 7ma when the led is on, and the 'AA' cells last about 15 hours before the light is really noticeably dim.
That said, I think based on your requirements, here is what you need to do in your case:
1) Calculate your current draw, try to keep the circuit's consumption to under 5ma peak.
2) pick a micro that can run on 2.7vdc
3) if the micro has an internal oscillator, use that, and compensate for it's frequency in software. If you are using the micro strictly for controlling the LCD, storing charachter maps, button control, then this should be easy.
4) Since you are using the RTC chip, configure it for the 1hz pulse output. This can be used as an interrupt to the micro to fetch the current RTC time registers and update the lcd.
5) VERY IMPORTANT - BE PATIENT!!
Tough to do, I know.
I will see if I can find a part number off of the cell and get that to you, along with the init files i owe you. Since you are opting for the cell phone lcd's my files are not going to help as they are written for simple 16 x 2 units, but you are welcome to them.
Since the solar cell can output enough juice to fully charge two NiCad cells in 12 hours, it has more than enough to charge a couple of super caps, and run the watch at the same time during the day, and then the watch switches over to the caps at night.
Jim |
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
I am trying to 'C' the light. One function at a time.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 29, 2007 - 01:13 PM |
|
Joined: Mar 06, 2001
Posts: 552
Location: Moscow
|
|
Low power GLCD (0.45mA, 3V)
pdf in russian |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 29, 2007 - 03:27 PM |
|
Joined: Nov 01, 2005
Posts: 6354
Location: Hilversum - the Netherlands
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 29, 2007 - 10:10 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
thanks guys.
i'm devastated. i got my results of the exams today. it seems that all six (seven?) of them turned out to be failed. now i have a choice to re-enter the university or try to work them out till september. that's my first day when atmel didn't seem to matter at all.
anyways:
1. jim - the lcd is working on 3,3V so i thought about running avr and rtc on the same voltage as well. i've already bought the solar cell anyways, producing about 0,5V and the question is - do i need to transform its voltage to 5V level in order to charge supercaps?
2. zauberer - i'm not sure who was that, but the first advice i got on this topic was to think of microamps rather than miliamps. i'm going to use 1,1F caps altogether, so 45 mA seems a bit too much. but thanks for the interest
Plons - if god (or whoever) made me laying golden eggs, or at least living somewhere else than in european 3rd world country, probably i'd get one
but i like the tft cases. i've never thought of water-proofing the armwatch before, and ths gives me a clue.
yes, i'm googling my new ideas always before putting those here, but i guess i'm not that seeking pro yet. |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 29, 2007 - 11:40 PM |
|
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6211
Location: Long Island New York
|
|
Sorry to see your university grades need some help. That sucks
.5v out of a solar cell is not going to do you much good. to charge the supercaps you need about .25vdc above the value you need minimum
lemme see if I can pull one of those cells I have on the lamp. I can send it via standard post.
Jim |
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
I am trying to 'C' the light. One function at a time.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 30, 2007 - 12:52 PM |
|
Joined: Nov 01, 2005
Posts: 6354
Location: Hilversum - the Netherlands
|
|
| Mactom wrote:
Quote:
i'm devastated. i got my results of the exams today. it seems that all six (seven?) of them turned out to be failed. now i have a choice to re-enter the university or try to work them out till september. that's my first day when atmel didn't seem to matter at all.
Sorry to hear that. A bummer.
Mactom wrote:
Quote:
Plons - if god (or whoever) made me laying golden eggs, or at least living somewhere else than in european 3rd world country, probably i'd get one
|
_________________
Dragon broken ? Or problems with the Parallel Port Programmer ? Scroll down on my projects-page http://www.aplomb.nl/TechStuff/TechStuff.html for tips
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 30, 2007 - 01:31 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
hmm... to be honest i bought this cell because it also generates maz 70mA current, so i thought of transforming it into 3,3V and 10.5mA, let's say. anyways if you think that your cell is far better than mine in this context, before sending it to me perhaps i could try to find such a lamp you menioned on the internet, in low price (damaged, for instance).
but remember that all of this makes sense if only this cell is small enough to fit my arm mine is 2,5x5cm + some space for tansforming the voltage (if only it's possible)
plons - you're right i did wrong not to read the specification yet. and the boost voltage, well, need to know how much is it and how could i generate one.
i'm thinking of making the backlight very dull to save the power, because as someone said on other thred, it is hard to read anything from nokia lcd when the backlight is off.
and if the supercaps fail, i found out recently that i also have Nokia 1610, 3330 and IPaq batteries. |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 30, 2007 - 03:40 PM |
|
Joined: Mar 06, 2001
Posts: 552
Location: Moscow
|
|
| Sorry, @mactom, mt6464b has supply current about 450 microamps (or 0,45mA). |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 30, 2007 - 03:56 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
| sheet, you're right. i really, really need more sleep. |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 30, 2007 - 05:10 PM |
|
Joined: Mar 06, 2001
Posts: 552
Location: Moscow
|
|
| Second bad news (after university)is that you need more solar cell connected in series to achieve 1.5 - 2.0V. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 30, 2007 - 05:31 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
| so there is actually no way to make higher voltage of it? i think i've seen somewhere in univ books a voltage increasing circuit in cost of the current so the overall power is not changed. something like an ac transformer, but as far as i can recall it was based on operational amp. but maybe it consumes too much power itself to be useful. |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 30, 2007 - 05:33 PM |
|
Joined: Oct 29, 2006
Posts: 2758
Location: Sweden
|
|
|
Quote:
Second bad news (after university)is that you need more solar cell connected in series to achieve 1.5 - 2.0V.
Maybe make some nice sweater of solar cells |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 30, 2007 - 06:04 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
| i think i'll note down all those ironic remarks and put them altogether in project description when i finally make things work. |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 30, 2007 - 07:19 PM |
|
Joined: Dec 17, 2005
Posts: 1500
Location: Europe- Estonia- Tallinn
|
|
| Try that for a booster: MAX1674 or MAX756. Neat little chips. Hand solderable. I have used that to power my flashlight LED from one AA cell. Used a 5W "monster" LED. White one. Worked reasonably well. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 30, 2007 - 07:48 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
thanks, those are great! if only i could find the ones that the minimum is below 0.5V
i just noticed that maxim/dallas simply do't produce any below 0.7V but still got a clue to google |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 30, 2007 - 08:46 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
gotta give up. i can't find any dc-dc converter that could boost from barely 0.5V to 3.3 or 5. or both. that cell just seems to be too few. i'm considering buying second one so it'll give me enough voltage altogether
is there anyone who has differend idea? |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 30, 2007 - 09:25 PM |
|
Joined: Oct 29, 2006
Posts: 2758
Location: Sweden
|
|
Loooong time ago I had a wristwatch.
It ran for at leat a year on a teeny-weeny coin cell and had an LCD-display and also four buttons.
You could light up LCD momentarily by pressing one of the buttons.
Only problem to reproduce such a watch would be to find such a small LCD. This was like 20 years ago and things have gotten smaller and cheaper and more efficient since then.
So what am I missing?
BTW, I once had a calculator driven by solar cells. I have slaughtered it and used the buttons for building a programmer for a CDP1802. Good old days.
Still have the LCD and solar cell. Each are appx 13x53 mm. I measured the voltage and it's around 1.7v in front of strong lamp and 1.5v when lamp is removed in a rather shady room.
If you are interested I can post it to you. There is no backlight on LCD though, I can post only the solar cell if you're interested? |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jun 30, 2007 - 11:32 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
hi,
i understand you didn't read the whole thread, good for your mental health
you're currently the fouth person with an idea of lighting up the lcd with a button. well, my wish was to ommit using such a button if only its possible. but now i'm worried if the backlight is essential to read things from the color lcd. if it is, then the button is a must.
ah, and the main thing is graphic lcd, or at least sth more fancy than plain digits. the original idea were led diodes and binary code, but apart from the strong feeling that i'll get one from my girl (we shouldn't chat that much ) leds are very hungry.
guys, it's quite embarrasing to point it out, it's not my first offer to get something from you. i don't have a PayPal account, and i'm not able to cover traditional cash transfer for 25$, because i'm living in god...blessing poland. so if any of you is offering me something, please presuppose that either i can't give the cash back for shipping, or i can supply you with polish-priced parts as an exchange thanks for understanding.
back to solar cell, i'm starting to understand what kind of useless * i've bought. it's going to be useless unless someone find the way to make .5=>5V dc transformation. so disassembly of dead calculator sounds like a good idea, but only if this solar cell can afford at least around 30mA at 1,5V.
so Lennart, your proposal about the solar cell is interesting and i really appreciate it, and i shall write you privately about this if i won't find any in my junkdrawer thanks. |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 01, 2007 - 04:25 AM |
|
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6211
Location: Long Island New York
|
|
| i am trying to get you th epart number of the cell i have. it is 5sq in in size and 3.5vdc in full sun out |
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
I am trying to 'C' the light. One function at a time.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 01, 2007 - 10:38 AM |
|
Joined: Dec 17, 2005
Posts: 1500
Location: Europe- Estonia- Tallinn
|
|
| search for "joule thief". It's low cost enough for you to just build it and test if it can create anything higher from 0.5V. if it can do 0.5V -> 1V conversion, you can use a MAX chip to make 3V3 and then run your chip. Although you must make the 3V3 running electronics VERY low current as you will loose a LOT of power on the amplification. probably will only get 50% |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 01, 2007 - 12:43 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
although i'm not sure, the joule thief seems to be transformer based, that means i'd really get sth like 50% and chained with MAX give us 45% so apart from using MAX, which is great, i'll just stick to better solar cells. i'll try to have it sampled, and check out if it could work with lower than 0.7V voltage anyways.
jim, that part sounds great. i'm waiting then. |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 01, 2007 - 01:12 PM |
|
Joined: Oct 29, 2006
Posts: 2758
Location: Sweden
|
|
mactom,
I've checked my solarcell, doesn't provide enough power to even light a small LED.
So sorry to say, my offer was worth nothing.
I have followed this thread from first day somewhat amazed by the number of suggestions to solve your problem. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 01, 2007 - 01:47 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
no worries lennart - jim is also checking out his cell, so sooner or later i'll find one and i'm also impressed how hard is to solve it.
i woke up today with another thing to work out. here is a simple diagram of the powering:
solar cell <5V ==dc/dc(1)==> 5V supercaps ==dc/dc(2)==> 3.3V for avr, rtc, lcd.
hmm, using two dc/dcs sounds spacy, and less efficient.
i think (1) should be step up to 5V, because the solar cell can't produce that much anyways, and the basic purpose for using this converter is to enable solar cell to load the supercaps up to the maximum, not only the maximum cell voltage.
dc/dc(2) step down naturally would be essential to prevent burning lcd, and to lower avr and rct consumption.
operating current of MAX is usually about 0.3mA, but some step-ups are cosuming ten times less. so it'd be worth using only one MAX if it's possible. i'll try to multisim it out myself, but knowing my skills any help is very welcomed
pity i can't find appropriate stepdown on maxim website apart from multifunction monster dc/dc (MAX1565). any alters? i'd google it myself but query containing short numbers usually results in a tragedy. tried yesterday.
if this project will work in the end i swear i write an article for freaks about power wasting cuts |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 01, 2007 - 07:35 PM |
|
Joined: Dec 17, 2005
Posts: 1500
Location: Europe- Estonia- Tallinn
|
|
Why two DC-DC's? just one will do just fine. and instead of supercaps I suggest a lithium battery (the 3V one). Works a lot better and longer.
The joule thief is just some copper wire with ferrite in the middle. Well yes a bit like a transformer. Just if you are going to buy the parts for your stuff add that transistor and the bead. Just "for fun". If it won't work, you can use it to pump up 0.2V.
--Rain-- |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 01, 2007 - 08:13 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
i don't quite follow. which dc/dc do you think i should get rid of? i wanted to use one to step up to 5V in order to charge supecaps, or battery, whatever, and another one to step down to 3.3V, which is essential to run lcd. of course if i use 3.3 or 3.6V battery one dc/dc should be enough.
another obstacle. i wanted to run the watch on the supercaps, but these are 5V, and in case of unsatisfactionarily short perod of working, replace it with nokia or ipaq battery, depending mainly on physical fitting. those are 3.6V i guess, so one step-down would be ommited.
sheet. i've already bought supercaps. now what? |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 01, 2007 - 08:26 PM |
|
Joined: Dec 17, 2005
Posts: 1500
Location: Europe- Estonia- Tallinn
|
|
| You put those supercaps aside for your next project and use a slim, small and better working lithium battery. cost is about 1$. Then all you need is to step up to 3v3, which is "WAY" more efficient. and you probably won't need the 5V to charge your caps either... you don't have to shove in as much as it says on it. 3V3 will do, if you want 3V3 back. (try it; I might be wrong).
Quote:
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 01, 2007 - 10:25 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
about the supercaps, theoretically you're right. i could charge them up to 3.3V but they won't be charged fully in that case. so whats the point of using them if i'm going to use, say, 3/5 of their abilities?
well, maybe i'm wrong as well, if i failed all exams...
lithium batteries are not as cheap as you mentioned, at least here, but i got some at home, i guess. some nokia batts, i guess nokia 3310's is the most handy, and ipaq's is the most powerful but with a weird connector. anyway i got an idea how to place them to make the whole armwatch smaller. and i'm considering using at least one cap as the backup power for rtc exclusively.
but i'm not sure if charging such a nokia battery is as simple as putting a 3.3V on it.
gosh, the whole university situation makes me nervous enought to lower my english to appaling level. |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 01, 2007 - 11:01 PM |
|
Joined: Dec 17, 2005
Posts: 1500
Location: Europe- Estonia- Tallinn
|
|
well better use the 3/5 of the cap than the double converter. to make 5V out of 0.5 takes too many amps and you are left with none.
And I didn't mean LiPo batteries. Those are different. I meant the button cells that you can find in watches, modern TV remotes etc. They are very easily rechargeable (just add power) and are small enough to fit on you wrist. I have one on my clock chip (the one I mentioned earlier) and it is still running strong so it has rather big capacity also (for the size at least).
(hint-> http://www.oomipood.ee/index.php?t=k_ki ... LL_1319725 ) |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 01, 2007 - 11:23 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
oooh, now that makes totally differend sense!
38mAh sounds a lot, and even if not, joining two of those should be enough. remember i've got an lcd to take care of. or i'll just seek for another model.
are you sure adding any power is enough to charge it? meaning, like 0.5V is enough with acceptable current to load it up to 3V? can't believe it..
if it is so, i'd just use step-up from this battery to 3,3V and 'the music plays', as we call things working.
by the way, anyone who gave me an idea of a button switching the lcd on for a short period. i joined this idea with my concept of not using such a button. here it is: an lcd switch. to save the power, when the watch won't be used for long, like for the sleeptime (not neccesarily night) i just switch the lcd off and the battery has its chance to reload. brilliant! |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 02, 2007 - 01:15 AM |
|
Joined: Oct 29, 2006
Posts: 2758
Location: Sweden
|
|
Well, I won't suggest you to use a button , but you will probably run out of power if you plan to have your LCD backlit for 16 hours using a coin cell.
Cellphones turn them off after a short while to preserve power and they have considerably larger battery capacity. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 02, 2007 - 01:50 AM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
basic idea of the armwatch is to operate it in normal conditions without right hand's help (meaning we could use it in darkness).
it is still not decided what to do with the backlight. if lcd will be readable without the backlight, it will be switched on with a button with short delay so we could read things in shades. otherwise - we've got a problem.
how about using a trembler to trigger the backlight? one shake and the backlight is on for a while. of course i understand that sometimes it will be triggered on no purpose, but i guess it is still better than voice command
another thing to save precious amps is to darken the backlit - i've seen in standard lcd's datasheets that backlight running lower voltage is simply darker, and needing less power. but if nokia's backlight runs 3.3V reducing voltage simply means wasting. |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 02, 2007 - 08:35 AM |
|
Joined: Jan 03, 2006
Posts: 4447
Location: Hemel Hemsptead, UK
|
|
| The nixie watch I mentioned above uses considerably more power than your proposed choices; he uses - as far as I recall - a single small 3v cell (half-AAA?) to power both the processor for timekeeping and the hundred-odd volts he needs to strike the nixies. There's an accelerometer on the board; when he shakes his arm the nixie display power is turned on. |
_________________
Neil Barnes
www.nailed-barnacle.co.uk
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 02, 2007 - 10:09 AM |
|
Joined: Dec 17, 2005
Posts: 1500
Location: Europe- Estonia- Tallinn
|
|
| Well those cells need about 3V3 to charge. because the electricity flow must be from higher to lower Voltage (Vcc->GND; 3V3->3V etc). |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 02, 2007 - 10:44 AM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
barnacle: as i googled out, the accelerometer is sensitive for gravity forces. well, of course. meaning each time i spin this thing so it is aimed to the ground, its analog output reaches maximum, or minimum. at least in as senitive model as i've found. anyway i'll refer to that project to look how it's done, maybe the guy was more tricky than i am thanks.
bloody-orc: so this battery still needs higher voltage that i could get only from differend solar cells. not good. and i still need two dc/dcs, or a 3.3V battery, but even if the battery will slightly go down, the lcd might stop working, so the step-up would be necessary too.
confused again :/ |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 02, 2007 - 02:22 PM |
|
Joined: Mar 06, 2001
Posts: 552
Location: Moscow
|
|
| These is Nixie clock, @barnacle mentioned: |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 02, 2007 - 03:57 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
| beautiful thing |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 02, 2007 - 10:02 PM |
|
Joined: Dec 17, 2005
Posts: 1500
Location: Europe- Estonia- Tallinn
|
|
The lithiums Voltage doesn't go down. Much...
You only need one. 0.5V->3V3. and to charge, you can use a small charger "station" on your bedside table. You will take it off your hand in the night anyway (unless you are going "fishing" in the nightclubs...).
As you have those supercaps, you can easily just test them. Make a circuit that draws constant current @ 3V3. (Like a LED <- <- Hint alert!!! ) Just measure the current the LED circuit draws. Do that using a PSU that can 100% supply all the current you might ever need. A computer PSU is a good choice probably. Then, when you have all the figures and numbers just add the supercap to the same schematic. wait a little and then remove the PSU. Don't just switch it off as it will create extra resistance and may have internal capacitors. That's bad for testing. Just pull the wires out. And then turn on the stopwatch and measure the time it takes the LED to turn off. And then you can get your mAh of the capacitor
anyway. Good luck. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 02, 2007 - 11:04 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
thanks. i'll do the test when i'll finally get my shipping. polish postal service is one of the lasts in international rankings.
and handclaps for anyone who finds an efficient method to do .5V ==> 3.3V
i'll just ensure you that i couln't google out any such dc/dc converter. |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 03, 2007 - 12:27 AM |
|
Joined: Nov 10, 2005
Posts: 1527
Location: Redmond, WA
|
|
Here's an example of a home built binary watch. It's PIC based, but that shouldn't be too difficult to change.
http://www.instructables.com/id/EYNTHEN ... /?ALLSTEPS
Also, check out these tilt switches.
http://www.comus-intl.com/comustilttip.asp
Using a tilt switch, you could display the time for several seconds after two or three shakes of the wrist. Or, you could flash the time once every second for 5-10 seconds after a tilt was detected. Have the uC disable the tilt detection during the time you are normally sleeping. Override this with a couple of shakes of the wrist.
This would be a fun project.
Tom |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 03, 2007 - 12:57 AM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
| thanks, Tom, never got any idea about tilt switches before. sounds like a better option than using accelerometer. |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 03, 2007 - 11:42 AM |
|
Joined: Mar 06, 2001
Posts: 552
Location: Moscow
|
|
SOLAR PANEL 2.4VDC 80mA with DC/DC voltage boost converter
JTAG connector for direct plug in MSP430 2x7 JTAG connector to provide power for the target board
suitable for up to 800mAh rechargeble battery, 800mAh battery will be charged to 100% if MSP430-SOLAR is left for 10 hours on sun light
Dimensions: 56x48 mm (2.2x1.9") |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 03, 2007 - 12:19 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
wow, sounds great. that would do the trick for sure even if i left the watch in the drawer for a week. the problem is in its dimentions. this model would be perfect if the battery was more flat, or if i built the desk clock instead of armwatch. either i'll try to copy this schematics using similar solar cell so i could make this module in my preferred size. or i'll buy one and modify this battery holding thingie. nah nah.
thanks.
but trying to repair my budget i'm still seeking for an answer for the following question: how to convert 0.5V into 3.3V or 3.6V or any higher? Maxim's MAX can't do that. thanks.
Added 07.07.03 17:07 CET
so i looked for it in the shops, and only one polish internet store has one. so the price stands for 1/3 of the estimated cost of the whole project. but i guess still cheaper that assembling it myself. i'd really like to make an use of the cell i bought but it looks like impossible right now. |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
Last edited by mactom on Jul 03, 2007 - 04:58 PM; edited 1 time in total
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 03, 2007 - 12:25 PM |
|
Joined: Mar 06, 2001
Posts: 552
Location: Moscow
|
|
| There are not DD-DC converter started working at 0,5V |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 03, 2007 - 01:20 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
| hooray :/ |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 04, 2007 - 05:43 AM |
|
Joined: Jun 19, 2002
Posts: 983
Location: SF Bay area
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 04, 2007 - 10:09 AM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
hooray
according to its datasheet with 0.5V the maximum current is 100mA, where the efficiency is going down to 0 fast. but with output current of 10mA efficiency reaches 60%. sheesh.. we can always use more than one, right? i'll request for samples anyway.
the drawback is that it needa a lot of space, for other part to work with. why the hell can't they stick those inside the chip!? we're alrady onquering space and TI guys cant make a small resistor? |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 05, 2007 - 09:05 PM |
|
Joined: Mar 06, 2001
Posts: 552
Location: Moscow
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 05, 2007 - 10:12 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
| that was the original concept, but leds are too power wasting. that's why i'm using lcd. |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 06, 2007 - 06:43 PM |
|
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6211
Location: Long Island New York
|
|
Mactom:
The solar cell in my walkway lights does not have a part number on it. The panel is 5.5cm square.
Your project is interesting, but your simple question has blown up into an international tech-fest. It is the price for having this much knowledge at your disposal.
Forget about everything that has been posted until now. It is getting silly. Let us examine the task.
What do you want your finished project to accomplish?
I recall it needs to keep time in binary, but must fit on your wrist.
What features do you want this device to have?
How would you like to power it?
As you always close your responses"remember I'm just a beginner" Then what I just posted is experience imparting wisdom. Put your design rules on paper and then go from there.
Email me anytime
Jim |
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
I am trying to 'C' the light. One function at a time.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 07, 2007 - 12:49 AM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
| i guess you're right, i need to list the features again from the scratch so it's less confusing for me and you all. expect me to edit this post tomorrow and to put what i've planned so far. thanks for your support. |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 09, 2007 - 04:32 AM |
|
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6211
Location: Long Island New York
|
|
Mactom:
I took the solar cell out of the light and ran some tests. The cell produces 2.7vdc@3ma in flourescent light, and 3.6vdc@6ma in bright sun. This is more than enough to power your clock and charge the supercaps provided you design the power supply correctly.
I successfully ran a 90s2313 at 4mhz with a few led's and no problems.
I have a photo of the cell, but cannot for the life of me insert it into this message. Don't know why either.
The cell is 7.5cm.sq. If you want it, it is yours. I just need a postal address and I can try to find the cheapest method to send it.
I can email you a picture of it if you give me an address for that, or I can post it here if someone can tell me how to do it
Jim |
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
I am trying to 'C' the light. One function at a time.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 09, 2007 - 11:06 AM |
|
Joined: Oct 29, 2006
Posts: 2758
Location: Sweden
|
|
|
Quote:
I can post it here if someone can tell me how to do it
Maybe you used "Quick reply" at bottom of posts, then there is no way to attach things (AFAIK).
If so try using "New reply" on top of posts, click "Browse" and then "Add attachment".
You then have to use "Preview" to see if it worked. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 09, 2007 - 12:55 PM |
|
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6211
Location: Long Island New York
|
|
Lennart
You the man!!!
Thanks |
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
I am trying to 'C' the light. One function at a time.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 09, 2007 - 02:46 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
hey guys,
sorry i haven't posted what i promised yet, but i've got a lot of work to do with the university, sick cat, mad woman, washing up etc.
jim, i'd love to have one. those parameters fits my project really well, but to make myself sure please post or send the photo. at least i can't see any. with an object to compare, ruler for example. thanks a lot.
further decisions we should consult on priv, shouldn't we?
so another post is coming as fast as i come back from vet. and cook dinner. argh. |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 09, 2007 - 08:07 PM |
|
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6211
Location: Long Island New York
|
|
I said 7cm sq. draw a square 7x7 TA DA!! I will send you the photo though anyway
Jim |
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
I am trying to 'C' the light. One function at a time.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 09, 2007 - 09:06 PM |
|
Joined: Dec 17, 2005
Posts: 1500
Location: Europe- Estonia- Tallinn
|
|
| 7cm sq isn't 7cm x 7cm! Learn math! 7x7 is 49cm sq! |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 09, 2007 - 09:21 PM |
|
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6211
Location: Long Island New York
|
|
Depends on what side of the pond you live on!!! HA HA
ok ok ok, then the device is 7cm long x 7cm wide
Jeez, whaddah grouch  |
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
I am trying to 'C' the light. One function at a time.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 09, 2007 - 09:27 PM |
|
Joined: Dec 17, 2005
Posts: 1500
Location: Europe- Estonia- Tallinn
|
|
| I thought that was considered as a standard of some sort (SI maybe?) Oh well... another lesson learned. on both sides of the pond I hope |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 10, 2007 - 09:50 AM |
|
Joined: Jan 03, 2006
Posts: 4447
Location: Hemel Hemsptead, UK
|
|
Gentlemen, it's not a question of maths, it's a question of English usage...
7 cm square = 7cm*7cm = 49 square cm
7 square cm = 7cm*1cm = 3.5cm*2cm etc
If the 'square' precedes the metric, then it's part of the unit that's being counted, so 7 (square cm) if you like. If the 'square' comes last them '7 cm' is what's being squared... it's easy to get them swapped around.
Neil |
_________________
Neil Barnes
www.nailed-barnacle.co.uk
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 10, 2007 - 12:56 PM |
|
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6211
Location: Long Island New York
|
|
Thanks Teach
Jeez I suck at math |
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
I am trying to 'C' the light. One function at a time.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 10, 2007 - 06:35 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
so how i understood the manner is 7 cm^2. seems like it's 7 times bigger than i thought. no way to put it on an arm, unless i really make myself a solar cell sweater.
i already got my useless cell, and i got a thought. how about breaking the cell in half and joining those halfs in series? that SHOULD give me 1V instead of .5V, but with less amperage. does it sound logically?
if that would work and my cell is actually producing current mentioned on the datasheet, i wouldn't need your cell anymore, Jim, but it's not a decision yet. thanks anyway for your help. |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 10, 2007 - 08:57 PM |
|
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6211
Location: Long Island New York
|
|
I would love to watch you break the cell in half.
Oh by the way, If you still are looking to make a wristwatch with a solar cell and some supercaps good fun then. You will probably get arrested on suspicion of terrorism. The thing would look like a bomb!! 
Jim |
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
I am trying to 'C' the light. One function at a time.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 10, 2007 - 09:04 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
i just need to know if that's going to work. breaking the cell in half is not a problem, the one i got is less than 1mm thin.
the supercaps i bought turned out to be... a bit bigger han i thought. each one is as big as 7 big coins sealed into one. guess i'll use this battery pack bloody-orc suggested. |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 11, 2007 - 03:00 AM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
ok, so to answer jim's request, and to make happy all you guys willing to help me, here is a quick features guide covering my project
basic overview:
a watch, named armwatch, because of its incredible size which doesn't matter until it fits one arm. to operate the watch no help of another arm is needed. also, a separate eeprom onboard containing images in suitable format which's content display is triggered by a button. everything solar-powered, so it must survive nights. possible lcd+avr on/off switch to save power at nights.
hardware ideas:
-using attiny or atmega, depending on i/o number and considering least power needed to operate
-lcd, options ordered from most cool to least cool:
*color lcd from nokia or other manufacturer
*fancy graphic mono if color are unreadable without backlight
-possibly backlight triggered by handshake, using trembler or accelerometer
-external rct
powering ideas:
-solar cells charging battery/supercaps and powering circuit. preffered as small as possible.
-using dc/dc step-up/down to stabilize power to 3.3V
-i'm considering using additional emergency supercap keeping rtc chip exclusively powered.
software ideas (please note i have't done any AVR programming yet):
-avr is being put to sleep and is waken up by rtc each second. the lcd content is updated and avr puts itself back to sleep. using highest clock frequency so it is put back to sleep faster. avr also reacts for button call to show graphics and to turn on backlight temporarily.
-or the same as above but running without sleep on dead slow clock frequency, like 32kHz (as long as it's possible with internal clock, otherwise the external one might be used, or rtc pulses)
-due to my serious troubles at university, programming will be done in old pal basic instead of studying asm.
stuff i already got:
-Philips 8583T RTC
-5x 5V 0.22F supercaps, but it turned out that they're huge, so don't expect me to use all of them not more than three
-0.5V 70mA solar cell, currently figuring out how to boost voltage with current reduction.
stuff i keep an eye on:
-MSP-430SOLAR PANEL 2.4VDC 80mA with DC/DC voltage boost converter (posted by zauberer above)
-http://www.oomipood.ee/index.php?t=k_ki&i=FARNELL_1319725 (lithum battery posted by bloody-orc)
-Jim's solar cell, 49cm^2 so quite big.
Quote:
The cell produces 2.7vdc@3ma in flourescent light, and 3.6vdc@6ma in bright sun.
current figuring out process results:
-my solar cell gives too poor voltage, so how about splitting it into two pieces and joining them in series to get higher voltage and lower current? i've seen on auction a broken pieces of solar cells and the guy claimed it's working.
-the same might be done with jim's cell to fit it my arm's size and power needs. but just please tell me if it's realistic at all.
-while using my poor cell no step-down will be needed; although if i wanted to use jim's, both step-up and down features would be essential because his cell is exceeding 3.3V rate.
phew, i guess that's it.
(added few minutes later)
my 66th post. it makes 2/3 of satan's number, isn't it? |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 11, 2007 - 01:00 PM |
|
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6211
Location: Long Island New York
|
|
Matcom,
Since your university career has hit a speed bump. Welcome to JIM-U!! Class is about to begin.....
1) Good!! you have a menu of what you want this 'wristwatch' to do. Pick the hardware first. The software is easy.
2) Make a decision on the display you are going to use, and stick with it. THIS IS IMPORTANT because the type of display and it's support hardware will decide many things going forward. My suggestion is a simple display, and if possible serial controlled. It uses less I/O pins.
3) Pick a processor and also stick with it!! ALSO VERY IMPORTANT. My suggestion is a Tiny that uses 8pins(hence why I suggested a serial lcd).
4)You are spending WAY to much time on the power supply. Keep it simple. I sat down, designed, and then built the power supply that I think will do exactly what you want and I used common parts that are easy to get. I did not use any funky switching supply chips etc. Just a solar cell, big capacitor, and a few diodes.
5) DO NOT CUT/BREAK THE SOLAR CELL IN HALF! The only thing you will get for doing this is broken glass and a dead solar cell. The cell you have has always bugged me 0.5v/70ma sounds like either an old cell or you are doing something funky in testing. The cell I offered you is indeed 7cm x 7cm, so it is 49 sqcm in size. I hope that makes all the math freaks happy now! 
6) Drop the RTC chip. It is not needed. Use it in something else.
7) Don't worry so much about making this thing wristwatchsize right off of the bat. I generally try to do my prototypes in DIP as much as possible as it is easier to get probes on pins etc. Then make it small. This way going forward, if the prototype works you then have a solid base to work off of. This is especially important if you are new at this.
Spend more time with your girlfriend and your cat! Your kitty likes it's head scratched, and I am sure your girlfriend is a lot more fun to play with than a solar/supercap powered wristwatch!! Seriously, walk away from this thing once in a while. Whenever I get frustrated I go do something else. My wife usually has a long list of stuff for me.
Ok, now that you have the first class' notes, and I am not goint to do your homework here is your assignment:
1) Pick the display
2) Choose a micro
3) draw a basic schematic IN PENCIL. I hate pens, difficult to erase boo boo's.
4) Ask yourself....Is Jim out of his mind?(answer:YES!)
Ok, that's all for now.
Jim
Oh by the way. The cat usually likes the scratch just behind the ears! |
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
I am trying to 'C' the light. One function at a time.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 11, 2007 - 07:55 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
thanks, master. i think i'll sketch it after couple of lessons of circuit theory i need to learn for september anyway. wash and go, that's what i like. not to offend you but you seem to be quite sane for me in the meantime i'll seek for an lcd in gsm sevices.
the solar cell parametres is what i've read in datasheet, never checked it myself. but i will.
what do you exactly mean by dropping RTC? what do you suggest to use instead? i've noticed that running atmel all the time is pretty hard to power.
both our cats love rubbing their faces and ears, but after castration both turned into sort of... gay? they prefer scratching just next to their tails now. i'd rather do some girl's task than THIS, like washing up. |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 11, 2007 - 08:34 PM |
|
Joined: Dec 17, 2005
Posts: 1500
Location: Europe- Estonia- Tallinn
|
|
you can run the AVR from 32,768kHz. or at least the timer (some chips can have 2 crystals connected to them. one for processor clock and the other one for timer.) Get yourself a good big chip; I don't think you can do it all with just 8 pins. I was thinking of tiny26L or something similar (although it doesn't have the ability to use 2 crystals AFAIK).
anyway good luck with your clock, LCD and gay(?) cats. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 11, 2007 - 11:34 PM |
|
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6211
Location: Long Island New York
|
|
Mactom,
You will not need the RTC. TRUST ME.
Just do your (4) homework items and then we move on.
I will give you one hint: Look at the specs on the Tiny micros running at 32khz.
The cats are not gay, but I can understand them being pissed off at you for having their 'nad's sliced off.
Remember, one step at a time dude |
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
I am trying to 'C' the light. One function at a time.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 12, 2007 - 12:30 AM |
|
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6211
Location: Long Island New York
|
|
| Here is the solar cell everyone want's to see!!! |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 12, 2007 - 02:24 AM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
the picture is not a surprise when we know the dimentions already, but compared to this avr its... bigger!
well, Jim's right, the topic should be more about powering right now, so let's put chips and crystals aside, at least until i start a new thread in projects room. |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 12, 2007 - 04:31 AM |
|
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6211
Location: Long Island New York
|
|
Mactom
My homework has everything to do with powering!! How do you design a power supply if you do not know what the requirements of it are?
In other words, you need to select the micro, display etc. first. Then work on the power supply, then look at both and see if everything is what you are looking for and adjust accordingly.
You answered task 4 in the homework, now do the first three
You will notice I did not include the power supply in the three things
Jim |
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
I am trying to 'C' the light. One function at a time.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 13, 2007 - 10:04 PM |
|
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6211
Location: Long Island New York
|
|
Mactom:
How are you making out with your schematic and component selections?
Jim |
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
I am trying to 'C' the light. One function at a time.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 13, 2007 - 11:08 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
easy, jim, haven't found an lcd yet, so it's a trick to pick suitable uC.
tell me, how much i/os will i need? seems like nokia lcds have command input, command/data switch and clock input. moreover, one button, possibly an accelerometer, and eeprom on some ios are making 6 or more of them necessary overall.
is there something wrong? |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 15, 2007 - 07:52 PM |
|
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6211
Location: Long Island New York
|
|
Don't know what you mean by is there something wrong.
The lcd is your first area thaat needs to be resolved, then the micro. I cannot tell you how much I/o you will need as I do not have a parts list that you want to use.
you are doing well. Pick the display first and see what is needed to run it. Feel free to tell me the part numbers and I can look them up and see where you are going
Jim |
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
I am trying to 'C' the light. One function at a time.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 15, 2007 - 08:28 PM |
|
Joined: Mar 06, 2001
Posts: 552
Location: Moscow
|
|
1.LCD - Nokia 3310
2.Atmega88V - super picopower nanowatt processor
3.TPS61200 as power convertor
4.Jim, This is correct? |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 15, 2007 - 08:49 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
tada! guess what i've found minutes ago in my junk drawer...
an old nokia 3110, dead after my ex spilled a cup of tea on it. it's not charging, so i guess the repair is complicated enough (smd soldering? boo..) and not worth considering phone's price to slaughter it for excellent amusement.
woo!
googled information mismatch with each other. one claim philips chip is used, the other says it's epson. guess i'll just need to check myslelf.
anyway, here is the link i've found:
http://www.nxp.com/acrobat_download/dat ... 8544_1.pdf
well, i meant to have a bigger display, but reassuming it's the one i have and programming colour is just too much for me right now, let's stick with it. it's quite similar to ones used in 3310, 3330, 5110, 3210 etc. plain 48x84.
task 2 almost done. i'm troubled with determining i/o pins count. let's say i've got the philips model. please help.
Thanks
UPDATE (info from other forum):
Quote:
I had the info right in front of me, the 3110/3810 displays use the Seiko(/Epson/S-MOS Systems) SED1560 chip.
|
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
Last edited by mactom on Jul 15, 2007 - 08:53 PM; edited 1 time in total
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 15, 2007 - 08:50 PM |
|
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6211
Location: Long Island New York
|
|
zauberer:
Who are you? I have been working with Mactom.
But WELCOME!!
To answer question #4 There is no wrong answer. The mega88 is a great chip. It all depends on what you are looking to accomplish
Jim |
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
I am trying to 'C' the light. One function at a time.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 15, 2007 - 10:01 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
| zauberer - the boost chip you picked has pretty cool efficiency in low input voltages. but my teacher suggested not using any step-ups i'm curious how are we going to solve it, but it's not task 4 yet |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 15, 2007 - 10:40 PM |
|
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6211
Location: Long Island New York
|
|
Mactom:
Glad to see you have your display. Can you send me any links? In Mr./Ms. Zauberer's case, maybe a step-up is ok. Since you want to power everything on a solar cell I suggested not using one. There are reasons but I won't get into it right now.
Have you looked at the micro yet? For I/O you will need to see how much I/O is required by the display, and then any other functions.
Jim |
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
I am trying to 'C' the light. One function at a time.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 15, 2007 - 11:22 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
jim:
i haven't dissasembled the phone yet, so i'm not sure on which chip is the lcd running on, but i guess there's no big difference between philips and seiko pinouts. nokia guys should be lazy enough not to make significant changes between two board models, for krishna's sake.
that's why i'm analizing philips datasheet, which is here: http://www.nxp.com/acrobat_download/datasheets/PCD8544_1.pdf
so, it says it has serial interface, just as you advised.
page 5 provides info about pinout. please have a look, i guess it's a waste of time to rewrite the whole thing here. there are some inputs and outputs, but i guess the only ones i need are serial data line and mode select.
that makes two. plus eeprom i/os, backlight button or other trigger, eeprom content show button, two timer set buttons (i've never thought about them before, shame ) that makes 6 + eeprom i/os, but have no idea how much is it. should i choose eeprom model too, or is it somehow standardized?
now it's your turn to correct me
the other philips i/os are scary! positive and negative power supply rails? row and column driver outputs? what the hell are those for? help!
crap, i'm out of pipe tobacco. not now! |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 16, 2007 - 03:15 AM |
|
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6211
Location: Long Island New York
|
|
I looked at the chip. It will require 4 lines of I/O. One for data, one for clock, one for chip enable, and one for data/control. The other thing is that because it is a graphical lcd the data is a bit pattern, not ascii. Since you are looking at making a binary clock, this is not that big a deal. You will also not need the external eeproms either.
What you will need is to see if the lcd controller is directly attached to the display, and if the control pads are accesable. Not having a 3310 to look at i could not tell
Jim |
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
I am trying to 'C' the light. One function at a time.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 16, 2007 - 10:07 AM |
|
Joined: Mar 06, 2001
Posts: 552
Location: Moscow
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 16, 2007 - 11:17 AM |
|
Joined: Dec 17, 2005
Posts: 1500
Location: Europe- Estonia- Tallinn
|
|
| maybe you didn't see that, but he is NOT using 3310, but 3110! The interface may be different. also the pinout of the display. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 16, 2007 - 01:13 PM |
|
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6211
Location: Long Island New York
|
|
Mr. Zauberer,
My bad on not recognizing you. The pinouts that Mactom needs totals 4, yes with the buzzer it is then 6.
Thanks for the input!!!
Jim |
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
I am trying to 'C' the light. One function at a time.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 16, 2007 - 02:23 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
right, i'm using 3110. some people doubt this phone even exist, but it really does. once again lack of digital camera makes me sad.
Jim: the reason i wanted to use external eeprom is that i can have more than one of them and change them if i need. and i'll just update data on them with other device i'll build for this purpose. remember i wanted to store pngs on them which presentation will be triggered by a buttonpush.
i'm honestly sorry to introduce new feature of my project. i realized that one image for mono 48/84 display makes 504B + header (isn't it?) so what i thought is to store more of them on mentioned eeprom. to choose between them i could use a switch like this:
(stupid opera browser runs into infinite loop while using IMG button of 'post reply' screen... oh well)
(image stolen from www.piekarz.pl)
imagine there are no numbers printed on this switch. on binary '0' position (all switches off) a normal time/date stamp will be shown, on other position - respective image from eeprom. moreover, on positions 128 and greater (first switch from the left on) the setup mode will be launched in which the time and date will be set. in this case, each switch set on increases specified value twice per second until you make it off.
anyways, i'm not encouraging you to write this software for me, i'm justifying my choice.
ok, i understand this will be 4 i/os for lcd, 8 for switch and x for eeprom, still need support on this one.
when we have those i/os figured out, i need to know how much memory will i need to make my software fit the chip. then, the choce is on my way.
hm, i realized i somehow forgot about backlight switch. oh well, it's a software issue. 8 switches must be enough. |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 16, 2007 - 03:38 PM |
|
Joined: Mar 06, 2001
Posts: 552
Location: Moscow
|
|
| You can use megas internal flash memory to store predefined pictures or any FRAM from Ramtron. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 16, 2007 - 03:56 PM |
|
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6211
Location: Long Island New York
|
|
I think you will need to abandon the supercaps and go for the nicad rechargables. So much for this as a wristwatch in the end as well!!
Jim |
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
I am trying to 'C' the light. One function at a time.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 16, 2007 - 04:53 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
fram needs 10mA. isn't it a temporary memory anyway?
i'm thinking of using, as you strongly advise, avr internal memory AND putting port onboard to update data inside. one i/o for that is all we need?
EDIT:
jim, are you sure you've answered my previous post? we've already agreed that supercaps will wait for other purposes... |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 16, 2007 - 06:17 PM |
|
Joined: Mar 06, 2001
Posts: 552
Location: Moscow
|
|
| I use 4 button for menu: Up, Down, Enter,Escape. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 16, 2007 - 06:52 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
interesting idea. i'll think of it and maybe steal it from you. nah nah
or i'll come with an idea of my own: left, right, enter, escape
so, how about accessing atmel's eeprom from the outside? how much i/os will be needed for that? by the way, they are hopelessly small, so maybe using external one is not that bad idea? |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 16, 2007 - 08:03 PM |
|
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6211
Location: Long Island New York
|
|
Mactom:
I said tou save the RTC for some other project
Yes, shelf the super caps too. Use the ni-cads.
You can access the internal eeprom from the outside, but which processor are you going to use? That was step 2 or 3 remember.
Jim |
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
I am trying to 'C' the light. One function at a time.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 16, 2007 - 08:17 PM |
|
Joined: Dec 17, 2005
Posts: 1500
Location: Europe- Estonia- Tallinn
|
|
Atmels external EEPROMs are very easy to talk to (24C series if I remember correctly).
And why Ni-CD? you mean AA or AAA cells? naah... Use 3V Lithium instead |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 16, 2007 - 08:44 PM |
|
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6211
Location: Long Island New York
|
|
Bloody-orc:
Mactom is looking to use rechargable nicads that are recharged with a solar cell
The 24 series is very easy to access. But at the same time the goal is to keep chip count low and current consumption as well.
Depending on what is desired to be displayed, the eeprom inside the micro should suffice
Jim |
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
I am trying to 'C' the light. One function at a time.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 16, 2007 - 08:54 PM |
|
Joined: Mar 06, 2001
Posts: 552
Location: Moscow
|
|
For graphical LCD you also need RAM, than processor must have RAM greater than LCD RAM + RAM to software.
Nokia LCD RAM = 504 Bytes, than processor must have at least 1024 Bytes.
Atmega 88 has 1024 bytes as shown on Atmel selection table
http://www.atmel.com/dyn/products/param ... ection=ASC
Atmega88 has many pins to any project.
I use 3V litium computer cell. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 16, 2007 - 09:02 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
ok guys, so you decide which battery is better then
in order to pick a chip i need to know amount of i/os. to know how much will i need, i have to know how much of them is essential to communicate with external eeprom first. or to let the devices talk to avr's internal eeprom.
so how about us sticking to external one. internal eeproms size makes me rather sad, because atmel's eeprom can store not more than fonts i'm going to define on it, and atmel's 24C (thanks, bloody-orc) are economic. my research results in 5 i/os: 3 address inputs, serial data and serial clock. correct? |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 16, 2007 - 09:14 PM |
|
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6211
Location: Long Island New York
|
|
The address lines can be used static so that cuts your i/o.
Two things:
I checked and the nokia 3310 is a european cell phone that is not used in the states much. I had to order an LCD thru canada so I can play with one. Are you going to stick with the 3310 display or did I waste my money?
Remember Mactom, you want this to run for days between charges. The eeprom is going to consume current. I am not sure what the lcd takes as of yet eiter.
Mactom: remember what I said about spending time with the ladyfriend, and the gay cat? I think it is time.
Incidentally since this project has gone astray again, I went and wrote most of the code for an led based clock. I did some current tests and the micro I chose with the speed I picked came in at 500 microamps current draw. I used three buttons for setting the time.
The power supply was my cell from hell, and two aa nicads
Jim |
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
I am trying to 'C' the light. One function at a time.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 16, 2007 - 09:17 PM |
|
Joined: Mar 06, 2001
Posts: 552
Location: Moscow
|
|
| If you have in system only one EEPROM you do not need pins for adress selection. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 16, 2007 - 11:34 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
yes, nokia 3310 is working on 900/1800 modes only, so in north america it's a crap.
i'm terribly sorry to disappoint you. i am going to stick with my lcd, but you made a mistake. the phone i have broken is, once and for all:
3110.
i know 3310 is way more popular (my grandpa uses one) so it makes a lot of confusion.
anyways, it might turn out that your lcd is the same as mine. as far as i know, almost all of mono graphic nokias used the same dimensions, and it's almost impossible we'll get displays based on the same chip anyway. there was too much of them used.
by the way, you could've told me before. in poland such an lcd would cost you max $3.5 + shipping.
basing on this example datasheet:
http://www.tranzistoare.ro/datasheets/208/160469_DS.pdf
i understand the stand-by current of described atmel eeprom is typically 8 uA. reading uses 1 mA max. as long as i understood the datasheet correctly, it isn't that much. the font patterns will be stored in avr's eeprom (i beg them to fit in 128B or so), and the menus, pictures, not often used, on external eeprom. i'm not self-confident enought to make this decision yet, but prove me wrong. because i feel like i am right now
did i just write 'menus'? seems like i've already adopted zauberer's 4-button interface. i like it. so forget about the switch above. smd buttons.
if the address used to communicate with eeprom can be static, what's the point of using it in eeproms at all? i don't get it.
i'm also glad you picked up my idea. it's pleasant seeing that someone got that much interested in armwatch
i've been thinking about 'reminding' function (without buzzer) and easy notes update, not complicated as rewriting an eeprom picked up from the board. no, i'm not going to attach the keyboard to my arm. so what i'm thinking of is to introduce an onboard port so the whole watch may be connected to pc. rs232 programming is what i could do. how about irda? post your thoughts.
thanks for your middle advice pal. it's almost midnight and i'm going to pick up my girl from work. i'll take her to kfc instead of romancing with semiconductors and playing smart with avr freaks tonight both gays were scratched enough for today. |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 16, 2007 - 11:43 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
| remember 'futurama'? the simpsons guy has invented an armwatch before have fun |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 20, 2007 - 12:31 AM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
| come on! no one has anything to say about communication with computer? |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 20, 2007 - 02:35 AM |
|
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6211
Location: Long Island New York
|
|
Mactom:
You have added so many extras, but you have not even picked a first micro, or drawn a schematic. How are you planning to write the code and program a chip?
Build a go cart first before you try building a truck!!
Jim |
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
I am trying to 'C' the light. One function at a time.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 20, 2007 - 03:10 AM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
| the only reason i'm developing those ideas right now is exactly because i try to pick a chip. even a basic thing which an i/o count is makes me troubled when choosing one. better safe than sorry. |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 20, 2007 - 01:28 PM |
|
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6211
Location: Long Island New York
|
|
not really
Since you close your replies with "remember I'm just a beginner" you really should look at getting something simple done....like pick a basic micro, the Tiny 2313 or Tiny2335 is a good choice to learn with. Since you have the lcd your first project could be to have the Tiny display something on the lcd. Since the Tiny2313 has 2k flash, 128 sram and 128 eeprom, along with a uart, and other slick toys to play with, you now have a very stable starting point. As far as programming goes, the STK500 is the standard we all use. There are cheaper things out there, but they do not stack up. The STK500 costs $79.00us so it is not that much.
I even see the stk500 in the traders forum so they are not tough to get anywhere.
Question: When your mom popped you out, did you start walking right away?(if you say yes I will turn you into one of your gay cats!!  )
Get a 2313, and an STK500. Draw a schematic of the 2313 connected to the LCD and go from there. That is a good start.
Look at it this way, this forum post is going on 10 pages long, and what do you have to show for it, other than two gay cats and that we now know you like KFC?
Jim |
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
I am trying to 'C' the light. One function at a time.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 20, 2007 - 03:59 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
it's too bad that i tried to count i/os when tiny2313 is battery friendly, and has 18 of them. thanks for speeding up my struggle.
i think you're starting to get mad at me. relax, i'm doing my best.
in polish realms $79 is a week wage, so either i pick something else or be patient enough to save that money. how about bascom? i heard some people saying it's a good way to program avrs in basic.
i didn't walk just after i was born, but i did write before i spoke anything. it might explain my strange ways to do things. |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 20, 2007 - 05:28 PM |
|
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6211
Location: Long Island New York
|
|
Not mad, just trying to smack you back to earth thats all
go back a few pages and find my thread with the steps and follow them. this time stop thinking about a watch and start thinking about connecting the 2313 to the lcd you have. then work on the source code. i will look at bascom as i have never played with it
jim |
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
I am trying to 'C' the light. One function at a time.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 20, 2007 - 06:29 PM |
|
Joined: Dec 17, 2005
Posts: 1500
Location: Europe- Estonia- Tallinn
|
|
Exactly I agree with Jim.
I too am making modules to test everything before I put them all together into one project. I have a board for IrDa, RF, USART, Nokia LCD, "normal" LCD 4bit, RTC, EEPROM, etc, etc, etc. I know it costs, but remember, the cost is smaller than to find, that your product won't work when it's 100% built. It's easier to replace a module than a complete board!
Get yourself a white no-solder breadboard and wires. Then a MEGA88 (or something with JTAG, if you can afford it. Makes debugging so much easier). And then start testing all kinds of systems. First your LCD, then your Clocking system, then buttons, then the charger part, sensors.
And what ever you do STAY AWAY FROM BASIC! You can't get most of the stuff working on that (like probably your LCD). Use GCC. It isn't so bad and it has examples in the datasheets of your AVR (very nice touch from Atmel).
Good luck
Rain |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 20, 2007 - 09:33 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
ok, so i got an lcd, picked the micro, what i need now is a breadboard and patience to run lcd itself. got it.
i think i'll check the environments both of you suggested, and stick with the one i like. |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 21, 2007 - 04:10 AM |
|
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6211
Location: Long Island New York
|
|
You also need to get a low cost programmer. ORC is correct that JTAG makes life easier. the Atmel AVR Dragon is $49.00 and basically does it all
I know you said money is tight, but keep in mind that you will have to program the micro eventually
Do us all a favor and drop the reminder that you are a beginner too!!!! 
On with the show!!
Jim |
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
I am trying to 'C' the light. One function at a time.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 21, 2007 - 01:14 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
programmers are popular enough here to get them cheaper. a bit.
anyhoo, i guess i have to sell my drums anyway, so i'll be able to buy some things. programmer, breadboard, chips etc.
here you have my new signature, i hope you like it: |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 21, 2007 - 02:08 PM |
|
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6211
Location: Long Island New York
|
|
Wise ass
|
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
I am trying to 'C' the light. One function at a time.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 25, 2007 - 01:05 PM |
|
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6211
Location: Long Island New York
|
|
Mactom:
The display I ordered arrived yesterday from England!! It is the same LCD for the 3310, 3320, 3330 or something like that. Do you have the pinouts for it?
Jim |
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
I am trying to 'C' the light. One function at a time.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 25, 2007 - 01:28 PM |
|
Joined: Dec 17, 2005
Posts: 1500
Location: Europe- Estonia- Tallinn
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 25, 2007 - 03:33 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 25, 2007 - 04:19 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
| the binarykarma.org guy has also posted an article about his struggle with 3310 LCD, third post from the top on the main page. mostly about how he managed to get one, but he also described briefly some bugs he solved. |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 29, 2007 - 01:27 PM |
|
Joined: Apr 12, 2007
Posts: 298
Location: Windsor, UK
|
|
Careful there are several version of the 3310 LCD. The one I grabbed of ebay is chip-onglass and the contacts are not soldered on.. Instead there is a spring pad that comes on to make contacts...
I don't /think/ one can solder on these 'glass' things.
I had a lot of success with the T68i color screen tho.. easy to manipulate, solder, and program (i2c 400khz).. I don't know the power usage. |
_________________
Author of simavr - Follow me on twitter : @buserror
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 29, 2007 - 05:38 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
thanks for advise. i have focused on nokias because i was confident that all of popular nokia models are easy to code.
anyways, my neighbour gave me a wrecked color nokia as well. maybe i'll experiment with both of them and see what happens.
also, i'm trying to stick with nokias because my car radio broke down (26 years old blaupunkt ) and in far future i'll try to make mp3 player of my own with huge nokia communicator LCD. should fit radio bay perfectly and be coded in more or less similar style.
also, sticking to nokia lcd is necessary so jim won't rip my head off with avr-based chainsaw |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 29, 2007 - 06:58 PM |
|
Joined: Apr 12, 2007
Posts: 298
Location: Windsor, UK
|
|
| I had a closer look a that 3310 lcd, and indeed I couldn't solder anything on it; however I managed to superglue the contact pad to the glass, and solder Kynar wire on that. Seems to bond nicely on the glass, that. I haven't plugged the screen as yet. |
_________________
Author of simavr - Follow me on twitter : @buserror
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 29, 2007 - 08:02 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
that's what i thought of first. and i think that is what i'm going to cope with using my 3110 (not 3310) lcd.
by the way, i've got two nokia 9110 lcds, one has its interior somehow broken, another one a tip of wire. i asked my friend to use a wire from one lcd to replace bad ending of wire in another. note that cable is unseparatable from the lcd. his plan is to cut both cables in very slight angle and glue them together. don't ask me how, he's the wizard. it's quite similar to the method you posted, i suppose. |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 29, 2007 - 11:05 PM |
|
Joined: Apr 12, 2007
Posts: 298
Location: Windsor, UK
|
|
Maybe that screen didn't survived after all, I think the whole liquid crystal migrated to the screen border. There's a dark border there while I don't /think/ there was one before.
Maybe the superglue put some stress on the glass, or something. I'll try to put power in just to see what happends... |
_________________
Author of simavr - Follow me on twitter : @buserror
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 30, 2007 - 01:12 PM |
|
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6211
Location: Long Island New York
|
|
Mactom:
What is the latest on your watch? |
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
I am trying to 'C' the light. One function at a time.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 30, 2007 - 03:03 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
oh, nothing big, mostly im studying for september exams, but i had a look over bascom, despite orc wanted me to stay away from basic. also skimmed through avrfreaks articles about i/os and basics and studied bascom samples. looks easy alright.
anyways, i haven't done any hardware work yet, due to obvious lack of time and funds. now my car needs maintenance.
hard life. |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 30, 2007 - 04:23 PM |
|
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6211
Location: Long Island New York
|
|
Mactom:
if you think life is hard now, wait till the girlfriend is pregnant. You will envy the gay cats!! |
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
I am trying to 'C' the light. One function at a time.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Jul 30, 2007 - 05:36 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 110
Location: Gdańsk, Poland
|
|
| no pregnant girlfriends. noted. leave the open window someday. noted. thanks teacher! |
_________________
Not entirely familiar with AVR thingies... yet.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Register
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Maximize
RSS
