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 Posted: Dec 14, 2010 - 08:34 PM |
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Joined: Dec 01, 2003
Posts: 2502
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Quote:
tpappano wrote:
edit: I just purchased a second pre-owned pick and place machine ...
I don't want to hijack this thread but I'd like to know every detail of this if you are willing to start a discussion on another thread.
Smiley
High Smiley, discussion started 
I now operate two Philips CSM84VZ P&Ps. These are 1992 vintage units, very heavy duty, weighing in at just under a ton each. They support as many as 84 component feeders, and have vision equipment for precision component alignment. The XYZ gantry travels up to 2 m/s, allowing a maximum placement rate of 5000-6000 components per hour, but the practical rate is less due to the various distances from feeder to board. The best part, when I got the first one a couple years ago, it paid for itself in 60 days
Interestingly, they are not PC based, but have a purpose built controller based on the 80186 and 8087. All user data is in battery backed ram, and the operating software is all in eprom. |
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Tom Pappano
Tulsa, Oklahoma
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Posted: Dec 14, 2010 - 08:40 PM |
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Joined: May 27, 2004
Posts: 695
Location: Sweden
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| Sorry for the OT but I had a 80186 on a network card in my first PC(8MHz 286), have not seen another one.. |
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Posted: Dec 14, 2010 - 08:55 PM |
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Joined: Aug 13, 2006
Posts: 6696
Location: Bellingham, WA - USA
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| Pictures are always good, Tom. I know you posted some when you got the first machine, but we're easily amused and would appreciate more. |
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Chuck Baird
"It's better to catch the trapeze than test the safety net" -- RPi book
http://www.cbaird.org
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Posted: Dec 14, 2010 - 09:32 PM |
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Joined: Dec 01, 2003
Posts: 2502
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| I'll see what I can come up with |
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Tom Pappano
Tulsa, Oklahoma
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Posted: Dec 14, 2010 - 10:39 PM |
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Joined: Nov 17, 2004
Posts: 6137
Location: Great Smokey Mountains.
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I don't want you to give away the store, but can you tell what you are using them for, how much these things are costing now (used), and how hard they are to use?
I'm planning to move into more hardware production in about a year so I'm trying to learn as much as I can early on. Also, I'm betting what with the exodus of jobs that there are a few PNP bargains around.
Smiley |
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Posted: Dec 14, 2010 - 11:25 PM |
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Joined: Dec 01, 2003
Posts: 2502
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Hi Smiley,
I paid 8k for the first one, with 50 feeders of various sizes. That price was probably on the high side, but on the other hand the machine was on a working line until they put it on the truck to me. No. 2 was sitting in a broker's shop for a while so I was not so certain of it's condition. It was almost half the cost, but also came with a crapload of feeders and spare parts. Used feeders are typically $100-200, so you want to get as many as you can included with the machine, and you will always want more than you thought you would. My best advice is try to find one that is being replaced due to equipment upgrade, through a broker or dealer, rather than an auction, which of course, is a total crapshoot instead of just a semi-crapshoot. Due to age my units are completely unsupported by Philips, so I'm on my own as far as maintenance. Some manufacturers will let you 'register' used equipment to qualify for factory support, so this is something to research.
Operation of the CSM84 is pretty simple. The head mounted camera can be used to 'teach' the machine where the parts go by steering it around over a sample pcb with XY jog buttons, or easier (for me), the machine reads simple text files which you can create/edit using your board's cad data. Do not settle for anything less than "top" and "bottom" "vision", which make life much easier placing today's small parts.
edit:
I manufacture about 20 assorted products for industrial temperature/power control and monitoring, and HVAC motor and combustion control applications. |
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Tom Pappano
Tulsa, Oklahoma
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Posted: Dec 15, 2010 - 01:35 AM |
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Joined: Sep 04, 2002
Posts: 21257
Location: Orlando Florida
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| Good time to inquire about the tradoffs to either stuff your own boards or send them out to a fab. Obviously getting them made in batches of 1000 is cheaper per unit, but doesn't make sense if you only expect to sell fewer than that. I hear the minimum run that makes sense for loading the reels in the machine is about 100. I assume you do get the boards made at a board house, even if you do the pick and place? |
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Imagecraft compiler user
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Posted: Dec 15, 2010 - 02:01 AM |
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Joined: Nov 17, 2004
Posts: 6137
Location: Great Smokey Mountains.
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Tom,
Thanks for the info. I wish I lived closer to Tulsa, I'd drop over with some cookies just so I could watch your process for a few minutes. I'll probably farm out my next project, but I'm hoping to eventually get to where this would make sense for what I'm doing. We'll see.
Smiley |
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FREE TUTORIAL: 'Quick Start Guide for Using the WinAVR C Compiler with ATMEL's AVR Butterfly' AVAILABLE AT: http://www.smileymicros.com
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Posted: Dec 15, 2010 - 03:39 AM |
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Joined: Dec 01, 2003
Posts: 2502
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Hi Bob,
If you have extra feeders with reels already loaded, swapping the loaded feeders on and off the machine is fast and easy. Sitting down and taking a couple dozen reels off of the feeders and reloading them with different reels is a pita. That is half the reason I got the 2nd machine, so I can have the full bill of material for everything loaded all the time. The other reason is to have a hot standby in case one of the units breaks down. (I had an encoder on a servo fail and had to go back to tweezers for three days, which seriously sucked)
I do have the bare boards made outside, the higher volume ones as panels. I use two Avr controlled convection toaster ovens, which can do four panels (of either four or six units) every 5 minutes, so they can reflow 3 to 5 units per minute, and can easily outrun the p&p. Building a batch of 250 units takes about 3.5 hours, going from bare board through final visual inspection. Not too shabby
Smiley,
Drop in any time! A major benefit of having the equipment is being able to easily build according to the customer's various model consumption rates. My board vendor can also do assembly and we are setting up to do 1000pc batches of the more common units, which frees me to do the lower usage/more exotic/new designs. |
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Tom Pappano
Tulsa, Oklahoma
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Posted: Dec 15, 2010 - 04:26 AM |
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Joined: Aug 22, 2008
Posts: 547
Location: Calgary, Canada
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I gather the CSM84VZ can't really handle 0402, and struggles with 0603. What's your experience?
Michael |
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Posted: Dec 15, 2010 - 04:44 AM |
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Posts: 2502
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| My "new" unit is equipped with a chuck for placing 0402s, and apparently was doing a lot of them, and also placing dies. It has a third camera with a macro lens for doing precision alignment on very small parts. I was also under the impression that 0603s were the minimum size, but I suspect that is because there were not many 0402s in 1992. The basic XYZ resolution is .01mm |
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Tom Pappano
Tulsa, Oklahoma
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Posted: Dec 15, 2010 - 07:51 AM |
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Joined: Dec 22, 2005
Posts: 1261
Location: shiraz , iran
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Tom thanks for the info. Can you just share some pictures?
Thanks in advance. |
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I love Digital
and you who involved in it!
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Posted: Dec 15, 2010 - 08:33 AM |
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Joined: May 02, 2006
Posts: 319
Location: Norway
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Tom Pappano.
Congratulation.
I have buy a Mydata (normal I am living in Norway)
it is a very flexible pick & place butnot so quick than yours!
But I have a script to make the data form Eagle direct to Mydata and spare a lot of time to start prototyping.
Perhpas can we share some experience to make asembly more efficent.
have a nice day.
Thierry |
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Posted: Dec 15, 2010 - 10:34 AM |
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Joined: Dec 01, 2003
Posts: 2502
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Quote:
Can you just share some pictures?
I try to take some pics
Quote:
Perhpas can we share some experience to make asembly more efficent.
Sounds good to me
From what I read in various forums, the Mydata equipment is really well liked, solid equipment. If I have to upgrade, it would probably be to a Mydata |
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Tom Pappano
Tulsa, Oklahoma
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Posted: Dec 15, 2010 - 03:37 PM |
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Joined: May 02, 2006
Posts: 319
Location: Norway
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Yes it is but "slow".
for me, some want make just small serie & prototyping, I can pick & place component for a piece of tape, not need full reel. It is very usefull. I must learn more, to day I am selv learm about Mydata, not very complicate but I need more time.
I will publish some picture too.
Thierry |
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Posted: Dec 16, 2010 - 12:13 AM |
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Joined: Jul 21, 2005
Posts: 1373
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Are there any low cost pick and place machines that are decent? I see a few new on ebay that is <10k and are small, but I have no idea how good they are.
Your old 1992 machine uses the optical cameras to position the parts? Seems like quite an accomplishment processing visual data using such limited hardware. |
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Posted: Dec 16, 2010 - 01:15 AM |
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Joined: Feb 15, 2008
Posts: 603
Location: Makassar,Indonesia
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The component's can be used as spare part's for smd microcontrollers.
Regards
Jeckson |
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Posted: Dec 16, 2010 - 10:44 PM |
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Joined: Dec 01, 2003
Posts: 2502
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Quote:
Are there any low cost pick and place machines that are decent? I see a few new on ebay that is <10k and are small, but I have no idea how good they are.
The new tabletop units you see on Ebay *might* be crap. I *think* I recall commentary on them in the past. Still, the feeders are (if I recall correctly) $500 and up each, so by the time you are ready to actually place parts you have still spent quite a bit.
I have seen the Philips/Yamaha CSM/YM systems get picked up for as low as $1500.
Quote:
Your old 1992 machine uses the optical cameras to position the parts? Seems like quite an accomplishment processing visual data using such limited hardware.
Well, I'm not sure what "limited" hardware might mean. The vision processor is its own module separate from the motion controller, and can process four cameras. It does a pretty good job and can determine, for example, if the width of a fine pitch lead is out of your specified tolerance, bent, pitch out of tolerance, etc. The "big parts" camera seems to deliver .01mm resolution. I don't have anything small enough to put in front of the "little parts" camera. |
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Tom Pappano
Tulsa, Oklahoma
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Posted: Dec 16, 2010 - 10:57 PM |
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Joined: Jan 23, 2010
Posts: 840
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
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| I want one. That is all I know. |
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Posted: Dec 17, 2010 - 03:48 AM |
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Joined: Jul 21, 2005
Posts: 1373
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| For a used machine, how do you even know it is complete? I see a few on ebay, but no way to tell what is missing on the machine and what needs to be replaced. |
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