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 Posted: Jan 27, 2012 - 04:17 PM |
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Joined: Aug 13, 2006
Posts: 6751
Location: Bellingham, WA - USA
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Quote:
what is "the feeding frenzy"
This isn't a great explanation, but it's easy for me to reference.
Quote:
Quote:
$DEITY it's friday..
What does it mean ?
You left off the "thank" which is part of the reference. "Thank $DEITY it's Friday" becomes "Thank God it's Friday" after the preprocessor sees it (also known as TGIF), a common phrase at least in the US. It depends on how you define your DEITY, of course. |
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Chuck Baird
"It's better to catch the trapeze than test the safety net" -- RPi book
http://www.cbaird.org
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Posted: Jan 27, 2012 - 04:29 PM |
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Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 62922
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
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Quote:
You left off the "thank" which is part of the reference. "Thank $DEITY it's Friday" becomes "Thank God it's Friday" after the preprocessor sees it (also known as TGIF), a common phrase at least in the US. It depends on how you define your DEITY, of course.
There's a UK variant of that which is TFI Friday. In fact there was a famous TV show:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TFI_Friday
I'll leave y'all to work out what the F could possibly have stood for 
(well, if you read the Wiki article it doesn't leave a lot of doubt!) |
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Posted: Jan 27, 2012 - 04:37 PM |
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Joined: Aug 13, 2006
Posts: 6751
Location: Bellingham, WA - USA
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There's even a restaurant chain called T.G.I. Friday's.
Johan's answer above about $DIETY is better than mine, and had I seen it I wouldn't have commented. I pull up all my threads at once from email notifications, and then go through them one by one to read and/or respond. Unfortunately there's often intermittent postings I don't see, so I guess I need to get in the habit of reloading first. |
_________________
Chuck Baird
"It's better to catch the trapeze than test the safety net" -- RPi book
http://www.cbaird.org
Last edited by zbaird on Jan 27, 2012 - 04:41 PM; edited 1 time in total
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Posted: Jan 27, 2012 - 04:41 PM |
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Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 62922
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
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Quote:
There's even a restaurant chain called T.G.I. Friday's.
Yup, I believe that's what triggered the (slightly more irreverent) naming of the TV show. That food chain was impotred here a few years before the TV show. (in fact I can't remember when I last saw a TGI Friday's so I'm guessing they pulled out of the UK) |
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Posted: Jan 27, 2012 - 04:43 PM |
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Joined: Aug 13, 2006
Posts: 6751
Location: Bellingham, WA - USA
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Quote:
I'm guessing they pulled out of the UK
You should be so lucky. Try "London" in the search field in the link above.
Sorry for wandering so far off topic here... |
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Chuck Baird
"It's better to catch the trapeze than test the safety net" -- RPi book
http://www.cbaird.org
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Posted: Jan 27, 2012 - 04:50 PM |
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Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 62922
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
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Quote:
Sorry for wandering so far off topic here...
What else ya going to do? It's Friday after all.
(I think we've established that much!) |
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Posted: Jan 27, 2012 - 09:04 PM |
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Joined: Mar 27, 2002
Posts: 18749
Location: Lund, Sweden
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Well, sice we're now entirely OT:
Quote:
There's a UK variant of that which is TFI Friday. In fact there was a famous TV show:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TFI_Friday
I'll leave y'all to work out what the F could possibly have stood for
So, to be politically correct once again, we would need "Thank $INTERCOURSE it's Friday"?
While we're at it, should we rename the preprocessor $FOREPLAY? |
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Posted: Jan 27, 2012 - 09:35 PM |
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Joined: Dec 11, 2007
Posts: 6980
Location: Cleveland, OH
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| No doubt it would Pre-Process this
Quote:
Keep the cohesion high and the coupling low
quite well.
JC |
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Posted: Jan 27, 2012 - 09:57 PM |
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Joined: Mar 27, 2002
Posts: 18749
Location: Lund, Sweden
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| I am tempted to do something on "sequence, selection and iteration" but I'll refrain since it is half a bottle of red later and I might regret it tomorrow. Good night everybody! |
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Posted: Jan 27, 2012 - 10:07 PM |
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Joined: Nov 01, 2005
Posts: 6354
Location: Hilversum - the Netherlands
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| Chuck wrote:
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Johan's answer above about $DIETY is better than mine, and had I seen it I wouldn't have commented.
Thanks guys.
It was the dollarsign that made me not seeing it through. I once sang in an opera, and one of the songs is "Puissante Déite, protège nous toujours". Chorus of the Greeks, in Gluck's opera Iphigénie en Aulide. So I put the CD in while making dinner. My neighbours had a hard time. I had a good time 
Sleep well, Johan !
Nard |
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Dragon broken ? Or problems with the Parallel Port Programmer ? Scroll down on my projects-page http://www.aplomb.nl/TechStuff/TechStuff.html for tips
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Posted: Jan 29, 2012 - 06:40 AM |
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Joined: Feb 09, 2011
Posts: 335
Location: Turnhout, Belgium
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clawson wrote:
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Nevertheless I still prefer to give a direct and correct answer rather than telling him he should do something else or plainly say that he's not doing it the right way.
You seriously believe that a beginner should be encouraged to keep the majority of an solution inside an ISR()?!? It's the kind of mistake only a beginner makes and they should be weaned off it as soon as possible. As I said above one has to gauge a poster's skill level and target the answers to that. If someone doesn't know that 0x0D, 0x0A are not start/stop framing characters then it's pretty clear their skill level is very basic. If they than have a huge blob of code in an ISR it is clear that this is not some died in the wool experts with some very lateral solution to the problem. It's an out and out beginner error and should be corrected. Same goes if someone DID say they were flashing an LED with:
Code:
int main(void) {
DDRB = 0xFF;
while(1) {
PORTB ^= 0xFF;
}
}
Would one really say the solution here was to stick with that code but slow the CPU down to 50Hz? No, you'd correct the code.
The only thing worse than no advice is bad advice!
I believe that a beginner needs to do things horribly wrong. It's a good way to learn thing. You can't expect a beginner to do things right from the start and that he learns everything by only getting the correct code. Making mistakes is a very good way to learn things as long as you are encouraged not to give up...
About the code you've written: there is a hardware approach (lowering frequency) and software approach. You can't say that the hardware approach is bad. Nor can you say that it's a good practice. But it is a solution and it can be a decent solution to a problem. |
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Posted: Jan 29, 2012 - 08:03 AM |
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Joined: Mar 27, 2002
Posts: 18749
Location: Lund, Sweden
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Quote:
I believe that a beginner needs to do things horribly wrong.
So you propose that while we ignore seeing the big problem the OP has, we will still answer his original question? Even if we see that he will not get a better working program with the answer on his original question?
A man sits in a car with his seat-belt tight around his body when the car bursts into flames. When you pass he asks you if you can help him get the car radio going. What do you do? What is the meaningful activity right now for both you and the man in the car?
If you are about to answer a direct question of the OP, then how meaningful will that be for you and the OP if you then need to mumble to yourself "but the code will still not work, and it is likely that you will have no clue as to why, and you will not be able to verify the solution to your original question that I am posting now"? |
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Posted: Jan 29, 2012 - 09:42 AM |
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Joined: Feb 09, 2011
Posts: 335
Location: Turnhout, Belgium
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JohanEkdahl wrote:
Quote:
I believe that a beginner needs to do things horribly wrong.
So you propose that while we ignore seeing the big problem the OP has, we will still answer his original question? Even if we see that he will not get a better working program with the answer on his original question?
A man sits in a car with his seat-belt tight around his body when the car bursts into flames. When you pass he asks you if you can help him get the car radio going. What do you do? What is the meaningful activity right now for both you and the man in the car?
If you are about to answer a direct question of the OP, then how meaningful will that be for you and the OP if you then need to mumble to yourself "but the code will still not work, and it is likely that you will have no clue as to why, and you will not be able to verify the solution to your original question that I am posting now"?
There is a very very wide gap between "what the hell are you doing, read the books again and come back when you learned something" and "this is the answer to your question <bunch of code given>"
If someone has a problem with code inside an ISR you can mention that there are other ways to deal with this. And meanwhile you can also give an answer to his problem. Those are 2 different things.
And I also like to give an answer to the why question. You say that the ISR is too large, why not explain WHY the ISR is too large. And so on and so on.
IMHO there is way too much assumption when one reads a question from somebody else. It's assumed that an ISR is too large. It's assumed that lowering frequency to a MCU is a terrible idiotic idea. And so on. |
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Posted: Jan 29, 2012 - 10:24 AM |
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Joined: Oct 04, 2008
Posts: 413
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I agree with jan_dc.
I think it is everybody's right to do something "stupid". He may even know that. But he wants to know why. Or why not...
So if the experienced "teachers" cut that off by their question "Why would you want to do that?", and say I have a much easier/beter way to do that... then they did not teach at all! They only expressed that they are much more experienced.
That the pupil should do as there "teachers" and bypass the pupils desire to learn from his own experiments. Thats not good teaching or helping to learn.
I also experienced this most irritating "why"- question. It tries to distract from what I (or jan_dc) is working on. |
Last edited by gdhospers on Jan 29, 2012 - 10:31 AM; edited 1 time in total
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Posted: Jan 29, 2012 - 10:25 AM |
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Joined: Mar 27, 2002
Posts: 18749
Location: Lund, Sweden
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Quote:
It's assumed that an ISR is too large.
It is assumed that it is very likely that the ISR is too slow (not large, that is of no importance). Yes, this will backfire in some rare cases. Yes, in that case the process might be less than optimal for the questioner, and it might also be a bit frustrating. OTOH, if we just answer the original question we will get frustrated questioners, and answers that in reality is a waste of time, in the absolut majority of the cases.
You are drifting in your argumentation:
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I ask a straight question and I simply want a straight answer to that.
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If someone has a problem with code inside an ISR you can mention that there are other ways to deal with this.
I believe that both of us now know in some sense where we stand. I suspect we won't get further. |
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Posted: Jan 29, 2012 - 10:32 AM |
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Joined: Mar 27, 2002
Posts: 18749
Location: Lund, Sweden
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Quote:
So if the experienced "teachers" cut that off by their question "Why would you want to do that?"
What makes you assume that it is about cutting off? Might it be for actually knowing why before answering about details?
Jeez guys, did you have a really bad experience as kids? Or what?
Now we have four alternative answers to a question that indicates that it is a high likelyhood that the OP is on a problematic track:
1. Answer "you are an idiot". This is of-course not an alternative.
2. Just give a "straight answer". So now there is a high probability that this answer is rather meaningless for the OP right now since he will likely run into a wall RSN.
3. Give the answer that "this is probably stupid" since he will likely run into a wall RSN.
4. Ask why, wait for the answer to that, and then be able to give an answer that fits the OPs situation. |
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Posted: Jan 29, 2012 - 10:40 AM |
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Joined: Nov 02, 2009
Posts: 3239
Location: Zelenograd, Russia
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| Would the "teacher's" question "Why would you want to do that your [stupid] way when doing it this another way is much more efficient?" be also considered as offensive? |
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Posted: Jan 29, 2012 - 10:56 AM |
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Joined: Oct 04, 2008
Posts: 413
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| [quote="JohanEkdahl"]
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2. Just give a "straight answer".
3. Give the answer that "this is probably stupid"
And help him trough his experiment to learn why.
For you this means there will probably nothing in it for you. But there is the reward that you helped someone to learn something. That may be a milestone! |
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Posted: Jan 29, 2012 - 11:04 AM |
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Joined: Feb 12, 2005
Posts: 16544
Location: Wormshill, England
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Yes. They are offended by anything.
Yes. There are many ways to skin a cat. If someone is clearly using a complex / ineffective / wrong method, it seems wise to suggest the conventional way.
I would guess that you learned to read or multiply by your teacher teaching one method.
You discover later in life that there are other ways.
IMHO, if you want to break convention this is fine. But you need to put forward a very good argument to justify your new square wheel. Life gets complicated if we need to explain all the advantages of round wheels every time.
Incidentally, square wheels do have improved braking performance.
David. |
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Posted: Jan 29, 2012 - 11:06 AM |
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Joined: Oct 04, 2008
Posts: 413
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MBedder wrote:
Would the "teacher's" question "Why would you want to do that your [stupid] way when doing it this another way is much more efficient?" be also considered as offensive?
It depends very much by the words used further on in a reply.
It can be friendly, it can be distracting, it can be offensive. |
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