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 Posted: Jan 25, 2012 - 05:19 PM |
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Joined: Nov 17, 2004
Posts: 13815
Location: Vancouver, BC
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Quote:
If it's about preparing them as microcontroller and system engineers they must get access to this - otherwise what point buying this to learn?
Surely there are other reasons to learn programming besides microcontrollers?
From the website:
Quote:
The Raspberry Pi is a credit-card sized computer that plugs into your TV and a keyboard. It’s a capable little PC which can be used for many of the things your desktop PC does, like spreadsheets, word-processing and games. It also plays high-definition video. We want to see it being used by kids all over the world to learn programming.
No mention of microcontrollers there, and the suggested uses are things normally outside of the realm of microcontrollers.
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It'd be easier to write application space programs on Windows or Linux or Objective C or Java apps on iOS or Android than buying this "bare board"
But those methods would undoubtedly be far more expensive. |
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Regards,
Steve A.
The Board helps those that help themselves.
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Posted: Jan 25, 2012 - 09:51 PM |
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Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 62220
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
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| But surely everyone's got access to a PC already, running either Linux or Windows? If they want to write application programs why wouldn't they simply use that? Or are you really suggesting this thing is a complete desktop PC replacement and it's expected to be used by people who have no other access to a computing resource? |
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Posted: Jan 26, 2012 - 12:17 AM |
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Joined: Feb 19, 2010
Posts: 507
Location: Montreal, QC, CA
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That thing is as big as pack of cigarettes, runs as fast as a 3yo PC, and has a TV output... I can think of a few projects I could use it for!
Portable digital scope, logic analyzer, portable media streaming client, standalone network/wifi printer router, portable AVR programmer/debugger with a full GNU development environment with IDE and all inside it via telnet(!)/remote desktop...
Portable anything really... There are a lot of things you can easily do on a PC but would much rather do in a closed little plug and play device! |
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Posted: Jan 26, 2012 - 08:25 AM |
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Joined: Mar 07, 2001
Posts: 2376
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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| Don't forget tp bring the portable 42" TV with HDMI input. |
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/Jesper
http://www.yampp.com
The quick black AVR jumped over the lazy PIC.
What boots up, must come down.
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Posted: Jan 26, 2012 - 09:17 AM |
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Joined: Oct 18, 2001
Posts: 352
Location: Eastern England.
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I think there is a huge mismatch between the project's ambition and reality. Their stated aim (from the FAQ) is...
Quote:
The Raspberry Pi is a credit-card sized computer that plugs into your TV and a keyboard. It’s a capable little PC which can be used for many of the things your desktop PC does, like spreadsheets, word-processing and games. It also plays high-definition video. We want to see it being used by kids all over the world to learn programming.
It's been said that it's the BBC Model B for the 21st Century.
It's not.
Firstly it's not a PC; it's a circuit board to which you have to add a power supply and a case. A case which doesn't exist. So the moment you drop something on it or lay it on top of something conductive it'll turn into another piece of landfill.
Which renders it totally useless for use in schools.
Secondly it runs Linux and exposes that fact. Don't get me wrong, Linux is fine but it's not, and never will be, the most used OS. If you're teaching you either need to go with the mainstream or hide the underlying OS.
All of the interest I've seen in this product has been from people like myself who have a bit of spare cash to buy a gadget. People who can afford to get bored and not worry that we've wasted a small sum of money. People who accept that we are going to have to get our hands dirty.
It is an interesting 'geek' toy. I may well get one. But it is a long way from meeting it's stated aims. |
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Posted: Jan 26, 2012 - 10:44 AM |
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Joined: Mar 07, 2001
Posts: 2376
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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I agree with everything you said, Brian, except that it's not even a geek toy, as it's mostly undocumented. And some of it never WILL be documented, publically.
There's no schematic, there's no board files, there's just an incredible lack of technical information on the web-page. (Actually there's NO information on the web-page, the little doc that exist, is located on another site, at elinux.org, and seems to be more or less generated by some reverse engineering on the Alpha boards).
You can't even use it with (most) computer monitors as it only outputs HDMI and TV-out.
Still interesting, but not quite my idea of a geek toy. |
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/Jesper
http://www.yampp.com
The quick black AVR jumped over the lazy PIC.
What boots up, must come down.
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Posted: Jan 26, 2012 - 12:50 PM |
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Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 62220
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
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Just to note that I've been following @Raspberry_pi on twitter and they tweeted to say:
Quote:
We hope to see the first devices back from the factory in the next couple of weeks; we'll let you know as soon as we have a shipping date.
and also:
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There are NO preorders available for the Raspberry Pi anywhere - and the ONLY place you'll be able to buy them from is http://www.raspberrypi.org
because apparently some sites have been set up offering to take a "pre order" for Raspberry Pi. They are almost certainly scams. |
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Posted: Jan 26, 2012 - 02:01 PM |
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Joined: Jan 09, 2007
Posts: 1857
Location: Arlington, Texas, U.S.A.
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Quote:
We want to see it being used by kids all over the world to learn programming.
IIRC, the competition is:
1. One Laptop Per Child (OLPC), approx. 100USD netbook, http://one.laptop.org/.
2. Genesi/Freescale Efika MX, 129USD nettop, 199USD netbook, https://www.genesi-usa.com/products.
Each of these have signficant advantages over a Raspberry Pi.
Debian 6 will run on Efika MX (ARM v4); Debian 7 may reach testing on Efika MX (ARM v7, floating point).
Efika MX is delivered with a Ubuntu 10.
Efika is moving to i.MX6 (Cortex-A9).
Cortex-A is really pushing hard (Freescale, Texas Instruments, Marvell, others) for PDAs and phones; need it in nettops and netbooks.
AVR GCC is in Debian (ARM, 386, etc.); have us AVRfreaks pitch in to buy some Teensys so disadvantaged kids can learn some embedded programming  |
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Posted: Jan 26, 2012 - 02:37 PM |
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Joined: Feb 19, 2010
Posts: 507
Location: Montreal, QC, CA
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Brian Fairchild wrote:
I think there is a huge mismatch between the project's ambition and reality. Their stated aim (from the FAQ) is...
Quote:
The Raspberry Pi is a credit-card sized computer that plugs into your TV and a keyboard. It’s a capable little PC which can be used for many of the things your desktop PC does, like spreadsheets, word-processing and games. It also plays high-definition video. We want to see it being used by kids all over the world to learn programming.
It's been said that it's the BBC Model B for the 21st Century.
It's not.
Firstly it's not a PC; it's a circuit board to which you have to add a power supply and a case. A case which doesn't exist. So the moment you drop something on it or lay it on top of something conductive it'll turn into another piece of landfill.
It IS a PC. An ARM11-based PC, with a GPU, a CPU, and an arithmetic unit. And 256MB RAM. It does require a power supply, but a single rail 5v 1A supply is hardly a hassle. There ARE cases in development, some suggested they could be available for as low as 0.50$ a pop from a 3D printing enthusiasts ring.
Quote:
Secondly it runs Linux and exposes that fact. Don't get me wrong, Linux is fine but it's not, and never will be, the most used OS. If you're teaching you either need to go with the mainstream or hide the underlying OS.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux#Embedded_devices
Due to its low cost and ease of customization, Linux is often used in embedded systems. Android—based on a modified version of the Linux kernel—has become a major competitor of Nokia's older Symbian OS, found in many smartphones. During the third quarter of 2010, 25.5% of smartphones sold worldwide used Android (with all Linux variants forming 27.6% of the total during that time).[81] Cell phones and PDAs running Linux on open-source platforms became more common from 2007; examples include the Nokia N810, Openmoko's Neo1973, and the Motorola ROKR E8. Continuing the trend, Palm (later acquired by HP) produced a new Linux-derived operating system, webOS, which is built into its new line of Palm Pre smartphones. The popular TiVo digital video recorder also uses a customized Linux,[82] as do several network firewalls and routers from such makers as Cisco/Linksys. The Korg OASYS, the Korg KRONOS, the Yamaha Yamaha Motif XS/Motif XF music workstations,[83] Yamaha S90XS/S70XS, Yamaha MOX6/MOX8 synthesizers, Yamaha Motif-Rack XS tone generator module, and Roland RD-700GX digital piano also run Linux. Linux is also used in stage lighting control systems, such as the WholeHogIII console.[84]
Might not be the most used OS, but it's certainly has a wide use in the embedded world. There IS no mainstream OS for ARM embedded platforms. Well there is one: Linux. Why do you make it sound like they should be ashamed to run linux?
Quote:
All of the interest I've seen in this product has been from people like myself who have a bit of spare cash to buy a gadget. People who can afford to get bored and not worry that we've wasted a small sum of money. People who accept that we are going to have to get our hands dirty.
It is an interesting 'geek' toy. I may well get one. But it is a long way from meeting it's stated aims.
It's stated goals are to provide a 30$ PC to children for learning. I would say they hit the mark pretty square, considering you have a fully functional distribution of Linux on a thing smaller than a can of beer. |
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Posted: Jan 26, 2012 - 02:38 PM |
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Joined: Feb 19, 2010
Posts: 507
Location: Montreal, QC, CA
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gchapman wrote:
Quote:
We want to see it being used by kids all over the world to learn programming.
IIRC, the competition is:
1. One Laptop Per Child (OLPC), approx. 100USD netbook, http://one.laptop.org/.
2. Genesi/Freescale Efika MX, 129USD nettop, 199USD netbook, https://www.genesi-usa.com/products.
Each of these have signficant advantages over a Raspberry Pi.
Debian 6 will run on Efika MX (ARM v4); Debian 7 may reach testing on Efika MX (ARM v7, floating point).
Efika MX is delivered with a Ubuntu 10.
Efika is moving to i.MX6 (Cortex-A9).
Cortex-A is really pushing hard (Freescale, Texas Instruments, Marvell, others) for PDAs and phones; need it in nettops and netbooks.
AVR GCC is in Debian (ARM, 386, etc.); have us AVRfreaks pitch in to buy some Teensys so disadvantaged kids can learn some embedded programming
I also see one significant disadvantage: they are both more than twice the price of the Pi. |
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Posted: Jan 26, 2012 - 03:02 PM |
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Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 62220
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
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Quote:
but a single rail 5v 1A supply is hardly a hassle.
It is for my aunt Nelly who expressed an interest in learning to program 
Clearly this thing is aimed at "nerds" but nerds are going to have big and powerful PCs already.
Quote:
I also see one significant disadvantage: they are both more than twice the price of the Pi.
OLPC:
Raspberry Pi:
In the words of Sesame Street "One of these things is not like the other one". To turn a "pi" into an OLPC would almost certainly cost more than their difference in price. |
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Posted: Jan 26, 2012 - 03:14 PM |
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Joined: Feb 19, 2010
Posts: 507
Location: Montreal, QC, CA
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Yeah but I don't want a fisher price laptop in bright lime green, I want a cool little board I can fit in a box!
BTW I have been looking at the forums and decent suggestion for a "slice" type of board, with a board edge connector, the SoC and bare minimum circuity (no connectors) wa sposted a couple days ago. If it follows through it will be a lot more attractive to nerds. |
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Posted: Jan 26, 2012 - 03:16 PM |
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Joined: Nov 17, 2004
Posts: 13815
Location: Vancouver, BC
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Quote:
But surely everyone's got access to a PC already, running either Linux or Windows?
No, they don't.
Quote:
it's a circuit board to which you have to add a power supply and a case.
A case is not necessary for it to run, and surely a case could be made for a couple of dollars, and a power supply would be another couple (not to mention that a single power supply could be used to power several units).
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Don't get me wrong, Linux is fine but it's not, and never will be, the most used OS.
Irrelevant.
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There's no schematic, there's no board files,
Also irrelevant.
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Still interesting, but not quite my idea of a geek toy.
It is not intended to be a "geek toy". It is intended to be a cheap PC for schools that can't afford to pay hundreds of dollars for a full PC. |
_________________
Regards,
Steve A.
The Board helps those that help themselves.
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Posted: Jan 26, 2012 - 03:20 PM |
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Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 62220
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
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| But if it's only a PC where the implementation hardware doesn't really matter how is it going to rekindle the interest in programming like in the old days of TRS80, C64 and so on which seems to be one of their stated aims. Many schools have rooms full of PCs but there's little evidence that this enthuses students to become programmers. Maybe it's a fault of the schools (teachers not skilled enough?) but such PCs tend to get used for education software and is simply a platform to run that on. If this is only aimed at being a cheap PC then I don't see how it's really any different? Or is the idea that it just widens PC usage so the same percentage go on to be programmers, it's just that is a percentage of a larger base? |
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Posted: Jan 26, 2012 - 03:36 PM |
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Joined: Oct 18, 2001
Posts: 352
Location: Eastern England.
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hugoboss wrote:
Yeah but I don't want a fisher price laptop in bright lime green, I want a cool little board I can fit in a box!
But you're not the stated target audience.
Koshchi wrote:
A case is not necessary for it to run, and surely a case could be made for a couple of dollars, and a power supply would be another couple (not to mention that a single power supply could be used to power several units).
...
It is intended to be a cheap PC for schools that can't afford to pay hundreds of dollars for a full PC.
Agreed, but without a case and power supply (and monitor, mouse and keyboard) it's not going to survive in an educational environment. Oh, and a SD card will last minutes before it gets lost/stolen.
clawson wrote:
Many schools have rooms full of PCs but there's little evidence that this enthuses students to become programmers.
Exactly. If you want to get kids into programming the hardware doesn't matter one little bit. |
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Posted: Jan 26, 2012 - 04:36 PM |
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Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 62220
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
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Quote:
If you want to get kids into programming the hardware doesn't matter one little bit.
Except I don't agree with that. If as my brother has just done for my newphew you give someone an Arduino so that he can get instant gratification (as one might have got previously building something from Lego or Meccano) from just wiring 10 lines of code I believe that is what gives someone an enthusiasm to get more interested in programming.
It used to be the case that you could even get that enthusiasm by writing a 5 line C program on a PC to output "Hello World".
These days to get an application program to do the same you need to understand a whole load of concepts like Windows, GUI widgets, graphic and UI APIs offered by some really large and fierce looking operating system. Admit it that even we, as seasoned professionals, got a warm feeling after doing battle with some GUI authoring system when after several days of head scratching we finally got it to say "Hello" when we click a button. But this is far too complex for someone just starting out and presents a major hurdle.
Another example, back in the days of C64 or TRS-80 or whatever we could say "hey look at this" after we just typed in:
Code:
10 PRINT "Hello"
20 GOTO 10
So it's not the hardware that matters so much but how easy it is to get some instant gratification through programming it.
I thought that's what this Raspberry Pi was all about - reliving the 1970's and 1980's all over again for a new generation - but it seems I've missed the point.
I see on twitter/their website them crowing about "we've implemented a complete media server so you won't need to use a X360 or PS/3 or whatever". So what? I don't entirely see how that gets someone enthusiastic about programming but I guess it is a use for a "cheap PC" so maybe that's all this is?
(3 years ago I was buying Intel D945GCLF board for < $50 as it was the cheapest way to put together a "PC" to be used in a dedicated media player role - I'm not sure why I'd pay $35 for an ARM11 that has less computing power and less on board peripherals if this thing really is just a "boring PC"?) |
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Posted: Jan 26, 2012 - 05:41 PM |
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Joined: Oct 18, 2001
Posts: 352
Location: Eastern England.
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I'm going to be slightly pedantic though and argue that the shortcomings you've just highlighted still don't have much to do with the hardware.
You could for instance make a standard wintel PC boot into something like BBC Basic in under 10 seconds, giving you the instant sense of fun that's missing at the moment. |
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Posted: Jan 26, 2012 - 05:45 PM |
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Joined: Oct 18, 2001
Posts: 352
Location: Eastern England.
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| And if I was going to spend 40 euro or so I'd rather have one of these for instant play. |
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Posted: Jan 26, 2012 - 06:20 PM |
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Joined: Dec 11, 2007
Posts: 6841
Location: Cleveland, OH
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Posted: Jan 26, 2012 - 07:06 PM |
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Joined: Nov 17, 2004
Posts: 13815
Location: Vancouver, BC
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Quote:
Another example, back in the days of C64 or TRS-80 or whatever we could say "hey look at this" after we just typed in:
Code:
10 PRINT "Hello"
20 GOTO 10
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Regards,
Steve A.
The Board helps those that help themselves.
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