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 Posted: May 27, 2012 - 04:43 PM |
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Joined: Feb 12, 2005
Posts: 16336
Location: Wormshill, England
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@Bob,
Do you play your bass guitar for free ?
You could make millions of dollars selling out Stadiums on a World Tour.
Everyone has their own different objectives in life.
A lot of public domain software has been written and developed by generous authors.
Before FSF and the internet, it was assumed that everyone sought riches. It is staggering how much software was / is developed for free.
If Richard or Pavel can make a living from ImageCraft or HPInfotech, then good luck to them.
Others live from their paid employment and do other things as a hobby.
Incidentally, if you hit the right software product, you can make a fortune. These tend to be those products that sell by the 100 million copies. You probably only make a few cents, but it all adds up.
If your product only sells by the 100, however much mark-up you make it is unlikely to make you rich.
As a customer, you decide yourself on whether the product is value for money. The selling price must suit both the company and the customer. If jabrams does not like a product, he need not buy it. Mind you, if he chooses to be disparaging, it is only fair for him to give some justification.
David. |
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Posted: May 27, 2012 - 05:03 PM |
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Joined: Nov 17, 2004
Posts: 6137
Location: Great Smokey Mountains.
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Posted: May 27, 2012 - 07:20 PM |
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Joined: Sep 04, 2002
Posts: 21274
Location: Orlando Florida
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| Get a printer for $35 and ribbons for $70? I don't like that model much do you? get a $400 phone for free and have to sign a contract to pay for 2 years? I don't like that model either. I try to get paid for sound gigs whenever possible. Some are gratis for benefits for folks with big bills and bad luck. If I get a playing gig, we usually split it equally. True Communism. Ain't that open minded of me? |
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Imagecraft compiler user
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Posted: May 27, 2012 - 07:49 PM |
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Joined: Feb 12, 2005
Posts: 16336
Location: Wormshill, England
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Bob,
You contradict yourself. True Capitalism means you can devise whatever business model you like. e.g. give away the mobile phone and charge for the contract.
It is up to the punter to choose which contract to go for. Likewise with the inkjet printer.
If you don't like it, don't buy it.
Similarly, I will forgive you for your Communism if your band plays well.
David. |
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Posted: May 27, 2012 - 08:12 PM |
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Joined: Mar 27, 2002
Posts: 18599
Location: Lund, Sweden
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There are people making money on supporting open source software (example: Redhat).
There are people making money on combining OSS with proprietary software (at least one ARM IDE maker comes to mind).
There are people using OSS for no money at all. Some of them contribute back to the community. And in a sense they market the stuff. (If someone says "we plan to buy an IDE that uses GCC as the compiler", I have substantial knowledge to perhaps give them some advice).
The model clearly works, at least for some cases, or else we would not have:
- Linux
- GCC
- Everything else GNU
Then there are the cases where the initiative at least partly was funded by a company. If I know the history correctly this goes for all of the following very well spread softwares:
- Eclipse
- NetBeans
- Subversion
- OpenOffice
and many more.
I have personally been part of making money on Subversion - by teaching/helping others to use it. I have returned to the community mainly by helping others (no code contributions) on the net. A few posts on Subversion actually ended up here at AVRfreaks. |
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Posted: May 28, 2012 - 01:55 AM |
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Joined: Jul 21, 2005
Posts: 119
Location: Australia
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I am disapointed with at least one moderator on this forum setting himself up as judge jury and executioner openly posting his plans to deal with my 'garbage'. I assume he meant my garbage, not clear.
I did not hijack this thread, I did not post something not relevant.
The OP was apologising for using a cracked copy of CVAVR, another poster suggested he buy it, another poster suggested he can learn to use AS6, I also suggested he use AS6 and not buy CVAVR.
I am starting to understand why new people on this forum are too scared to post anything.
I am 67 years old, I started working with MCUs back in the 1970s, I am well aware of what things used to cost and what a bargain todays's prices really are.
It is not a about the CVAVR price, it is about being FAIR, it is about a protection scheme that clearly does not protect CVAVR yet seriously affects those who have paid for it.
We are suposed to trust Pavel but he cannot trust us.
It is about hiding libraries, better fully documented code is available free on the net.
It is about doing things very differently and hiding how it is done.
CVAVR makes it easy to start writing code without reading the AVR data sheet and becoming familiar with the MCU you are using - not a good idea unlees you factor in going back and learning all that. It is a quick start but not good for YOU in the long term.
If you get used to using CVAVR you may incorrectly imagine you know a fair bit about AVR and programming in C - wrong!
Take your working CVAVR source and try to compile it with any other AVR C compiler and you will get a lot of errors, you can solve most of them easily but a lot will require you to go back and learn a lot more about C programming before your code will ever work again with more Standard C compilers.
It isn't just about make files and register definitions, there is a lot more involved.
For most people AVR isn't the only MCU they will use and CVAVR will not help them with those other MCU and the easy to use non standard C they have become used to using leaves them unprepared.
CVAVR is useful, just be aware of the gotchas and the extra work you will need to do when you eventually move on. |
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Posted: May 28, 2012 - 02:57 AM |
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Joined: Mar 09, 2012
Posts: 1452
Location: North Carolina, USA
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jabram,
I agree that some of the behavior of at least one moderator, in general, is highly questionable. There is also some attitude from the "establishment" that does not make people feel welcome, regardless of skill level.
Speaking for myself, as a rather new figure around here, I get the sense that those people act like there's a shortage of questions and they have to fight for their right to be the one that supplies the answer. If you happen to supply an answer while those people are asleep, they will attack it as soon as they wake up. If you have supplied a correct answer that nobody can argue with, they will demand more information - even in the case where the one asking the question has reduced their source to the smallest code that will reproduce the problem behavior, you have posted a solution and the one asking the question has expressed that he's happy with it.
Others will throw out claims that they are "professional" developers, the implication being that you are not. At the same time their answers will reveal - to the real professionals - that they don't have a clue what they're talking about.
But...
The rest of your complaints don't make much sense. You initially went on a rant about how much money some supplier was able to make, as if it is wrong for somebody to make money from their work or make more money from their work than you claim you would want to. I strongly disagree with that. If you don't like the price structure, use something else. It really is as simple as that.
Now you've changed your complaints into worries about what using a tool will do to the users when they want to do something not covered by the tool. That's just plain stupid. A hammer is not intended to be used for screws, and anybody that has used a hammer for a little while knows that. Using slightly more advanced tools, most people get used to reading specs before they acquire a new tool, too.
Get the right tool for the job. When you face a new job, you may need a different tool. What's the problem with that ? |
Last edited by ChaunceyGardiner on May 28, 2012 - 03:07 AM; edited 1 time in total
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Posted: May 28, 2012 - 03:30 AM |
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Joined: Feb 19, 2001
Posts: 25923
Location: Wisconsin USA
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Quote:
If you have supplied a correct answer that nobody can argue with, they will demand more information - even in the case where the one asking the question has reduced their source to the smallest code that will reproduce the problem behavior, you have posted a solution and the one asking the question has expressed that he's happy with it.
OK, I'll bite:
1) [full disclosure] I don't read all threads.
2) This situation obviously grabbed you.
3) Give me a pointer or two, so that I might share your outrage.
I trust you will be able to do so. |
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Posted: May 28, 2012 - 03:45 AM |
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Joined: Feb 19, 2001
Posts: 25923
Location: Wisconsin USA
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Quote:
It is not a about the CVAVR price, it is about being FAIR, it is about a protection scheme that clearly does not protect CVAVR yet seriously affects those who have paid for it.
You are way losing me.
what part is not "FAIR"? How is it any less "fair" than any other scheme. You now say it is >>not<< about the price; but earlier didn't you say it wasn't worth it?
Let me back up. Earlier you said
Quote:
Which facts would you like ? happy to supply them
I just read and re-read your latest post. I see no "facts".
Earlier you claimed "buggy". Facts, please.
Earlier you claimed "things missing". Facts, please.
What libraries are "hidden"? Facts, please. The only ones that I know of are some of the recent "advanced" drivers for GCLD. [BTW, one of my pet peeves with Atmel re AVRs is that some of the "free" libraries/stacks aren't available as source code and only for selected compiler brands.]
Quote:
Take your working CVAVR source and try to compile it with any other AVR C compiler and you will get a lot of errors,
Examples, pleas, with a program written with such transport in mind.
If your examples are chip include file syntax and ISR syntax, wouldn't the same be said for any of the AVR brands to CV or to any other?
If your examples are EEPROM and flash access: ditto.
If your examples are inline ASM: ditto.
If your examples are standard C then list some of these "lots of errors". |
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Posted: May 28, 2012 - 04:01 AM |
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Joined: Dec 18, 2001
Posts: 4724
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Quote:
Take your working CVAVR source and try to compile it with any other AVR C compiler and you will get a lot of errors, you can solve most of them easily but a lot will require you to go back and learn a lot more about C programming before your code will ever work again with more Standard C compilers.
garbage
Even if one sticks to C99 and is careful, lots of changes are needed to go between ANY two C compiler/libraries. But a tiny few compared to cross-language ports.
And that was the intent. |
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Posted: May 28, 2012 - 04:04 AM |
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Joined: Mar 09, 2012
Posts: 1452
Location: North Carolina, USA
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theusch wrote:
Quote:
If you have supplied a correct answer that nobody can argue with, they will demand more information - even in the case where the one asking the question has reduced their source to the smallest code that will reproduce the problem behavior, you have posted a solution and the one asking the question has expressed that he's happy with it.
OK, I'll bite:
1) [full disclosure] I don't read all threads.
2) This situation obviously grabbed you.
3) Give me a pointer or two, so that I might share your outrage.
I trust you will be able to do so.
I don't hold grudges, so I don't know if you're one of them.
It's also a little bit hard to find evidence as the moderator in question not only deletes posts that explicitly adresses his behavior - he'll even go in and stealthily edit not only his own posts, he'll even stealthily edit other people's quotes of his posts.
I also think that you, if you are one of the "establishment", should consider my feedback about the skilled newbie experience for what it is rather than trying to prove me wrong.
But I'll try to find some examples of what I'm talking about. I'll post back here if I find something relevant, if these posts still exist at that point in time.
EDIT: This thread, to some extent, is an example of the problem : http://www.avrfreaks.net/index.php?name ... ht=#946117
It would have been more obvious if the moderator behaved more like a man of honor. |
Last edited by ChaunceyGardiner on May 28, 2012 - 04:19 AM; edited 1 time in total
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Posted: May 28, 2012 - 04:14 AM |
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Joined: Mar 28, 2001
Posts: 20399
Location: Sydney, Australia (Gum trees, Koalas and Kangaroos, No Edelweiss)
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Quote:
It is a quick start but not good for YOU in the long term.
Is C good for anyone anyway? 
Quote:
be aware of the gotchas and the extra work you will need to do when you eventually move on.
The compiler would ONLY be part of the "issues" when one moves on other tools and/or controller.
And for ANYONE levelling slander towards any moderator REMEMBER: The job is yours, at least mine can be. I'm sure anyone can do a better job. |
_________________
John Samperi
Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.
www.ampertronics.com.au
* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly
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Posted: May 28, 2012 - 04:23 AM |
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Joined: Mar 09, 2012
Posts: 1452
Location: North Carolina, USA
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js wrote:
And for ANYONE levelling slander towards any moderator REMEMBER: The job is yours, at least mine can be. I'm sure anyone can do a better job.
You as far as I know are not a part of the problem. But what you are saying is that no matter how a moderator abuses his privileges, stealthily or not, the outsider should just keep his big mouth shut if he knows what's good for him. |
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Posted: May 28, 2012 - 04:25 AM |
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Joined: Nov 17, 2004
Posts: 6137
Location: Great Smokey Mountains.
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ChaunceyGardiner wrote:
It's also a little bit hard to find evidence as the moderator in question not only deletes posts that explicitly adresses his behavior - he'll even go in and stealthily edit not only his own posts, he'll even stealthily edit other people's quotes of his posts.
Examples of this would be...???
ChaunceyGardiner wrote:
But what you are saying is that no matter how a moderator abuses his privileges, stealthily or not, the outsider should just keep his big mouth shut if he knows what's good for him.
I think I'm a fair observer and have been here a very long time and not seen this. So again - examples? |
_________________
FREE TUTORIAL: 'Quick Start Guide for Using the WinAVR C Compiler with ATMEL's AVR Butterfly' AVAILABLE AT: http://www.smileymicros.com
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Posted: May 28, 2012 - 04:56 AM |
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Joined: Mar 09, 2012
Posts: 1452
Location: North Carolina, USA
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smileymicros wrote:
ChaunceyGardiner wrote:
It's also a little bit hard to find evidence as the moderator in question not only deletes posts that explicitly adresses his behavior - he'll even go in and stealthily edit not only his own posts, he'll even stealthily edit other people's quotes of his posts.
Examples of this would be...???
I already posted an example of this. Obviously, it's hard to post examples of what exact changes the moderator did, as he did it using his stealth privilege.
If you want an example of where this power is used in the open, just look at this thread: http://www.avrfreaks.net/index.php?name ... ht=#954537
smileymicros wrote:
ChaunceyGardiner wrote:
But what you are saying is that no matter how a moderator abuses his privileges, stealthily or not, the outsider should just keep his big mouth shut if he knows what's good for him.
I think I'm a fair observer and have been here a very long time and not seen this. So again - examples?
Why don't you just look at the post that was a response to ? He labels my expression of frustration as "slander".
I don't have any problems with js whatsoever, although his labelling my concern as "slander" raises another issue - moderators are beyond criticism no matter what they do. I'll just take that as a deposit to the "he didn't understand what i was saying" account. |
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Posted: May 28, 2012 - 09:37 AM |
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Joined: Mar 28, 2001
Posts: 20399
Location: Sydney, Australia (Gum trees, Koalas and Kangaroos, No Edelweiss)
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Quote:
his labelling my concern as "slander" raises another issue - moderators are beyond criticism no matter what they do
Moderators are beyond UNFAIR criticism. If Johan had any problem with Cliff editing his post then he would have complained loudly as he has done in the past.
One reason why I and other moderators sign our changes to some posts is so that everyone can see who has done what, if Cliff or anyone else wanted to do things in "stealth" then one would do changes without pointing out the changes or being the one who has done the changes.
As I said above anyone who feels that he/she will do a better job, and that quite easily be so, is free to apply to be a moderator. If there are no spots left they can have mine. |
_________________
John Samperi
Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.
www.ampertronics.com.au
* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly
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Posted: May 28, 2012 - 09:49 AM |
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Joined: Mar 27, 2002
Posts: 18599
Location: Lund, Sweden
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Quote:
If you want an example of where this power is used in the open, just look at this thread: http://www.avrfreaks.net/index.php?name ... ht=#954537
I might be blind, but I can not see where any moderator edited someone elses post in that thread. Could you point to the exact post? (Right-click the small document icon at the post to get to the specific URL for that post.)
So, I'm not sure if "Johan" refers to me or to SprinterSB (Johann). I'll assume it is me: Yes, I think mods should be very careful editing other peoples posts. I also think they should do so in some specific cases:
Examples:
No: Spelling and other textual corrections.
Border case: Adding CODE tags (I'm leaning towards "yes").
Yes: Removing spam, removing links to cracked software, removing foul language or outright slander etc.
In the end I should be responsible for what I post. There is an emphasis on both the first and second "I" in there. Any editing that risks altering the semantics ever so slightly - even if the semantics implied is not the intended ones - should not be edited by anyone by the poster.
Such a principle protects both the poster and the moderator. |
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Posted: May 28, 2012 - 09:54 AM |
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Joined: Mar 28, 2001
Posts: 20399
Location: Sydney, Australia (Gum trees, Koalas and Kangaroos, No Edelweiss)
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Posted: May 28, 2012 - 11:56 AM |
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Joined: Mar 27, 2002
Posts: 18599
Location: Lund, Sweden
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Ah!
Thank you. I missed that one. (Because the forum software has a life on it's own when it comes to if it will add a "Last edited by..." note or not.)
In that case it was really quite benign, though a quote in a separate post would have been slightly clearer.
Not wanting to make a great fuzz about it, but IMO editing of other users posts should be kept to an absolute minimum. |
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Posted: May 28, 2012 - 12:30 PM |
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Joined: Feb 12, 2005
Posts: 16336
Location: Wormshill, England
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Quote:
It is not a about the CVAVR price, it is about being FAIR, it is about a protection scheme that clearly does not protect CVAVR yet seriously affects those who have paid for it.
In an ideal world, programs would not get cracked. The vendors would make a better living.
Quote:
We are suposed to trust Pavel but he cannot trust us.
In my experience, HPInfotech will help their license holders through any difficulties.
Quote:
It is about hiding libraries, better fully documented code is available free on the net.
You can read the ASM code if you want. Or as with any C compiler, use your own libraries. You may need to avoid certain names.
One of the attractions of CV is that the library code works, has documentation and examples.
Yes, there are other sources of code that require trawling the internet. And quite often need some correction.
It is up to a vendor to choose his business terms. Pavel's model seems to provide 'added features' at regular intervals. So if you want the latest GLCD libraries or Xmega Wizard, you need to keep up to date.
OTOH, you can compile many mega32 projects with an ancient version.
David. |
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