| Author |
Message |
|
|
 Posted: Apr 17, 2012 - 10:50 AM |
|
Joined: Oct 08, 2005
Posts: 96
|
|
I was wondering, is Atmel sponsoring or even the owner of this website / forum?
I noticed that someone from Atmel had the ability to lock this thread discussing, among other things, Cortex-M0.
http://www.avrfreaks.net/index.php?name ... p;t=116065
I find it disconcerting, to say the least. |
_________________
Building my dreams!
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Apr 17, 2012 - 11:17 AM |
|
Joined: Feb 12, 2005
Posts: 16550
Location: Wormshill, England
|
|
Yes. Atmel owns this website.
Yes. They can do whatever they like.
Yes. It seems quite proper for them to remove bad language or advertising of rival products.
Yes. Atmel makes 8051s, AVRs, ARMs and numerous support chips.
Yes. I find it disconcerting too. OTOH, it is their site.
David. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Apr 17, 2012 - 11:57 AM |
|
Joined: Nov 09, 2001
Posts: 270
Location: Serbia
|
|
| If I own a company ABC and I provide a playground for all the children in the block for free, and put in it a basketball, soccer, tennis and volleyball children courts, and I put climbing metal structured wagons, trains, rockets and sand terrains for everyone's joy, then I don't think that anyone will say that I am bad if I put big ABC logo all over the place promoting my web site with my products, and if I warn someone who wants to put some DEF or GHI logo in my park. There are other parks for anyone who doesn't like it... |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Apr 17, 2012 - 12:11 PM |
|
Joined: Mar 27, 2002
Posts: 18761
Location: Lund, Sweden
|
|
| Again: Freedom of press belongs to those who owns one. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Apr 17, 2012 - 12:32 PM |
|
Joined: Jan 23, 2004
Posts: 9894
Location: Trondheim, Norway
|
|
Atmel owns the site. This is a site dedicated to discussion AVR microcontrollers - if you want to discuss other architectures, please use the correct site (this even goes for Atmel ARMs and 8051s).
- Dean  |
_________________
Atmel Studio 6.1 is now released, grab it here.
Report AS6/ASF bugs here.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Apr 17, 2012 - 01:03 PM |
|
Joined: Dec 30, 2004
Posts: 9012
Location: Melbourne,Australia
|
|
| This whole issue seems to have exploded as a topic in recent times. Maybe we're all just bored and need a new outlet? There's always the automotive forums where brand loyalty is very strong if people feel a need to 'belong'. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Apr 17, 2012 - 01:21 PM |
|
Joined: Oct 04, 2008
Posts: 413
|
|
It seems Atmel wants AVR to be a religion.
But we were warned to be cautious to discuss religious and political subjects. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Apr 17, 2012 - 01:31 PM |
|
Joined: Jan 23, 2004
Posts: 9894
Location: Trondheim, Norway
|
|
|
Quote:
It seems Atmel wants AVR to be a religion.
But we were warned to be cautious to discuss religious and political subjects.
Nope, it just wants the sites to remain on-topic. If you want to discuss our other products use our other dedicated sites, if you want to discuss competitors product use their dedicated sites. Nothing sinister other than wanting to preserve the site integrity for its original purpose.
- Dean |
_________________
Atmel Studio 6.1 is now released, grab it here.
Report AS6/ASF bugs here.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Apr 17, 2012 - 01:35 PM |
|
Joined: Oct 04, 2008
Posts: 413
|
|
| Then you should remove the "Off Topic" forum. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Apr 17, 2012 - 01:45 PM |
|
Joined: Mar 27, 2002
Posts: 18761
Location: Lund, Sweden
|
|
|
Quote:
Then you should remove the "Off Topic" forum.
Why. E.g. a newspaper that has a section for "Letters to the editor" can choose to publish or not publish whatever they want that is sent in. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Apr 17, 2012 - 01:53 PM |
|
Joined: Oct 29, 2006
Posts: 2758
Location: Sweden
|
|
|
Quote:
Nope, it just wants the sites to remain on-topic. If you want to discuss our other products use our other dedicated sites, if you want to discuss competitors product use their dedicated sites. Nothing sinister other than wanting to preserve the site integrity for its original purpose.
Dean, correct me if I'm wrong but I believe we are still allowed to discuss/compare other brands and technologies.
What is not accepted is blatantly promoting competitors products (AKA "doing a Leon"). |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Apr 17, 2012 - 01:57 PM |
|
Joined: Jan 23, 2004
Posts: 9894
Location: Trondheim, Norway
|
|
|
Quote:
Dean, correct me if I'm wrong but I believe we are still allowed to discuss/compare other brands and technologies.
What is not accepted is blatantly promoting competitors products (AKA "doing a Leon").
I'm not the policy maker (I think Eric is the closest person we have for that) but that is indeed my understanding; discussion is fine, as long as it isn't blatant and unsolicited promotion. We're not totally naiive and we realize that commercial competition does exist (both good and bad) but we don't want to explicitly help them out.
- Dean |
_________________
Atmel Studio 6.1 is now released, grab it here.
Report AS6/ASF bugs here.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Apr 17, 2012 - 02:09 PM |
|
Joined: Oct 29, 2006
Posts: 2758
Location: Sweden
|
|
Dean, I actually PM'ed Eric last night when I saw the thread was locked and as far I understand your last post express the same opinion as Eric did. Which is a good thing...
And I fully agree and understand that decision.
How about adding a fine tuned statement to the sticky about policies for this forum so that we know appx where the line is drawn? |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Apr 17, 2012 - 02:43 PM |
|
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6212
Location: Long Island New York
|
|
|
Quote:
Nope, it just wants the sites to remain on-topic.
When has anything ever stayed "ON TOPIC"? A simple question of moving the inputs of PortA to PortB turned has been known to take on a species of its own.
This site is notorious for making mountains out of anthills. All of us mean well when we inject our two sense in, but the road to hell is paved with people who mean well. |
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
I am trying to 'C' the light. One function at a time.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Apr 17, 2012 - 02:54 PM |
|
Joined: Oct 29, 2006
Posts: 2758
Location: Sweden
|
|
|
Quote:
but the road to hell is paved with people who mean well.
Good to hear that you finally C this.
Us on the bright side have missed you lately. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Apr 17, 2012 - 04:42 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2009
Posts: 134
Location: Northern California
|
|
| In my opinion, companies that wield censorship in a heavy-handed manner on corporate sponsored forums such as this one do far more harm to a community and their own reputation than the Leon's of the world. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Apr 17, 2012 - 05:48 PM |
|
Joined: Feb 09, 2011
Posts: 335
Location: Turnhout, Belgium
|
|
|
SalAmmoniac wrote:
In my opinion, companies that wield censorship in a heavy-handed manner on corporate sponsored forums such as this one do far more harm to a community and their own reputation than the Leon's of the world.
oh, come one. Stop the whining. The thread is still there (and complete) for anyone interested to see. This is not heavy-handed censorship. Heavy-handed censortship would be consequently removing all words, links and thoughts about anything else than Atmel stuff.
Atmel sels a lot of certain stuff. In a thread on a forum, hosted and owned by Atmel, some people say that you shouldn't buy that stuff anymore because other (non-Atmel) stuff is better. Atmel decides to close the thread but leaves it visible for other everyone.
Seems perfectly fair and honest and normal. I dare you to go to a supermarket and tell the customers that they should buy their things in an other supermarket. Would you be surprised that someone from that supermarket put you out of the store?
You can freely use this forum but that doesn't mean that you can freely say anything you like. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Apr 17, 2012 - 06:01 PM |
|
Joined: Nov 11, 2003
Posts: 4042
Location: Chicago Illinois USA
|
|
| And, of course, there are fora where you'd be more than welcome to discuss the delights of the Cortex-M0. |
_________________
Discursive design,
Torby
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Apr 17, 2012 - 06:02 PM |
|
Joined: Oct 29, 2006
Posts: 2758
Location: Sweden
|
|
|
Quote:
In my opinion, companies that wield censorship in a heavy-handed manner on corporate sponsored forums such as this one do far more harm to a community and their own reputation than the Leon's of the world.
This is a danger, yes.
OTOH a lot of regulars have been complaining about moderators being too soft and letting the site slowly become more hostile and rude to posters, both newcomers and regulars.
I find it to be a good thing that Atmel try to take some control and clean up what might mount to an even greater loss.
In doing so I'm sure it will be a number of actions taken that may upset some of us, since we meet a new policy.
After all I've never felt the urge to PM admins before that thread was locked. So I was upset... and worried...
After some discussion with Eric I think I see the point he(Atmel) is making.
We still can discuss/compare other brands and technologies but anyone advertising for free for other than Atmel products will be whipped with long ropes with Brand X tied to the end of the ropes.
I still think the post from Eric when locking the thread could have been more clear.
IIRC he said that any non-Atmel discussions should be done elsewhere.
Makes me think about a real good book I read many years ago about men.
And how some of us are unable to lock the door from inside to protect ourselves from evil intruders, because we feel it's rude to leave any one on the outside.
And how this lack of stamina makes us hurt.
A company must also learn this lesson or they will suffer consequences.
Not every one have friendly and open agendas.
Which i.e. was revealed by Johan about a certain person.
I sincerely hope that we can talk with each other and admins about when to lock the door until some sort of consensus have been reached.
We will however never reach a point where everyone agree to the new policy (or any policy). |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Apr 17, 2012 - 07:26 PM |
|
Joined: Mar 01, 2001
Posts: 4960
Location: Rocky Mountains
|
|
Hi All,
You're right, I probably could have been a little more clear in that post where I locked the thread.
I locked the thread to basically get everyone's attention. Glad to see that it worked. After 10 pages of discussion, it was still going down roads it probably shouldn't.
I've said before:
- We have no problem if you are doing a "comparison" type thread, comparing the AVR with competitors. Make it an honest comparison (i.e. don't be a troll). It's ok if the comparison even shows the AVR in a bad light. How else can we improve without honest feedback?
- What is inappropriate is just to discuss competitors' products, their tools, their support networks, etc. without any reference to the AVR. Please take that kind of discussion off-site. The comp.arch.embedded newsgroup is a great place for that. Or other websites.
- If you guys want to talk about Atmel's SAM series of ARM processors, while technically it's still an Atmel product, my guess is that you would be better served by talking about it on www.at91.com, where there are many other users of those products. You'll probably get a much wider user base for the discussion.
And remember, there are 10-year olds that are working with Arduino boards. Who knows if they visit AVR Freaks or not? But, you should act like they do visit here and keep the language clean, pictures clean, etc. You should be proud to show your significant other, your children, or your grandchildren this website.
This is all just common sense, people.
And no, we're not just going to get rid of the Off-Topic forum. It's fun. Where else am I going to learn about that cool-looking nixie clock?  |
_________________
Eric Weddington
Marketing Manager
Open Source & Community
Atmel
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Apr 17, 2012 - 07:51 PM |
|
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6212
Location: Long Island New York
|
|
EW:
Quote:
You should be proud to show your significant other, your children, or your grandchildren this website.
My wife does not understand what I do for a living.
My son does not understand what I do for a living.
By the time I have grandkids there will be no more microcontrollers, hence they will not understand what I did for a living.
so why worry about it 
Quote:
And no, we're not just going to get rid of the Off-Topic forum. It's fun. Where else am I going to learn about that cool-looking nixie clock?
I am still waiting for the thread on Barbecue sauce to begin 
From Lennart:
Quote:
Good to hear that you finally C this.
Us on the bright side have missed you lately.
Don't get used to it. I have a case of crabbycrankyitis that is not going to go away.
You happy people on the bright side suck! |
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
I am trying to 'C' the light. One function at a time.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Apr 17, 2012 - 07:53 PM |
|
Joined: Jun 15, 2009
Posts: 134
Location: Northern California
|
|
|
EW wrote:
Hi All,
- We have no problem if you are doing a "comparison" type thread, comparing the AVR with competitors. Make it an honest comparison (i.e. don't be a troll). It's ok if the comparison even shows the AVR in a bad light. How else can we improve without honest feedback?
The thread that prompted my comment was one in the AVR32 Hardware forum where a poster had a few complaints about the EVK-1100. He posted a few links to PIC32 and ARM products to use as examples of "why can't Atmel do it that way?"
The thread was removed, ostensibly for "advertising" (by you, I believe). It was quite clear to everyone on the forum that the original poster's intent was not advertising-related in any way. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Apr 17, 2012 - 07:54 PM |
|
Joined: Oct 29, 2006
Posts: 2758
Location: Sweden
|
|
Eric,
Thanks for the clarification.
That is a perfectly reasonable place to draw the line in my mind.
I'm sure someone disagrees with that...
Can't help to wonder about those 10-year kids though.
They probably have to live with far worse language every day in school and on the forums they like to hang out on.
At least in Sweden. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Apr 17, 2012 - 07:56 PM |
|
Joined: Mar 01, 2001
Posts: 4960
Location: Rocky Mountains
|
|
Hmm. Don't know about that one. I haven't been on the AVR32 Hardware forum in a while. *(embarassed)* (I'm a software guy by training.) We, the moderators, will have to become a little more nuanced in applying that policy.
Thanks for letting us know. Because I really do mean it when I say that honest product comparisons are allowed and encouraged. |
_________________
Eric Weddington
Marketing Manager
Open Source & Community
Atmel
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Apr 17, 2012 - 07:59 PM |
|
Joined: Mar 01, 2001
Posts: 4960
Location: Rocky Mountains
|
|
|
jgmdesign wrote:
EW:
Quote:
You should be proud to show your significant other, your children, or your grandchildren this website.
My wife does not understand what I do for a living.
My son does not understand what I do for a living.
By the time I have grandkids there will be no more microcontrollers, hence they will not understand what I did for a living.
so why worry about it
Sure. It's all about you, right?
A community is made up of more than a single individual. But you already knew that. |
_________________
Eric Weddington
Marketing Manager
Open Source & Community
Atmel
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Apr 17, 2012 - 08:38 PM |
|
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6212
Location: Long Island New York
|
|
|
EW wrote:
jgmdesign wrote:
EW:
Quote:
You should be proud to show your significant other, your children, or your grandchildren this website.
My wife does not understand what I do for a living.
My son does not understand what I do for a living.
By the time I have grandkids there will be no more microcontrollers, hence they will not understand what I did for a living.
so why worry about it
Sure. It's all about you, right?
A community is made up of more than a single individual. But you already knew that.
With an army of one!!
Hooo Rahh! |
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
I am trying to 'C' the light. One function at a time.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Apr 19, 2012 - 06:48 AM |
|
Joined: Oct 08, 2005
Posts: 96
|
|
I did not know AVRFreaks was owned by Atmel, nor is it clearly stated anywhere. I believed it was set up by open source enthusiasts working on the GCC-AVR port of the compiler. Or maybe this was the case and they sold the site to Atmel, I don't know.
But I generally find it disconcerting that Atmel is blocking all discussion on competing products, especially in an off-topic forum. |
_________________
Building my dreams!
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Apr 19, 2012 - 07:07 AM |
|
Joined: Mar 27, 2002
Posts: 18761
Location: Lund, Sweden
|
|
| The question of the ownership of the site has been discussed many times by now. It was started by an Atmel Trondheim employee (more or less on unpaid time IIRC) so it has been an Atmel thing from the start. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Apr 19, 2012 - 10:59 AM |
|
Joined: Mar 01, 2001
Posts: 4960
Location: Rocky Mountains
|
|
All the open source enthusiasts working on the AVR GCC port usually prefer to use email lists anyway.
Johan is basically correct. |
_________________
Eric Weddington
Marketing Manager
Open Source & Community
Atmel
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Register
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Maximize
RSS
