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 Posted: Apr 12, 2012 - 07:45 AM |
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Joined: Jul 21, 2005
Posts: 1377
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Hi,
For those of you that use several brands of micro controllers, what types of applications is AVR the best choice?
I have used; PICs 8/16/32, AVR, PSOC 1/3/5, Cortex M0. Each platform has a distinctive personality that is suited to particular applications, except AVR, it seems to be a very good generalist platform but I can not think of a particular thing that it dominates, nor can I think of a particular thing that it is particularly bad at. |
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Posted: Apr 12, 2012 - 08:20 AM |
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Joined: May 04, 2007
Posts: 3529
Location: Geelong Australia, Home of the "Cats"
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| Sales of AVR's, support the running of this website! That's really good! |
_________________
Charles Darwin, Lord Kelvin & Murphy are always lurking about!
Lee -.-
(If you haven't already done so, edit your PostNuke profile and let let us know where you are, what you do & what your interests are.)
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Posted: Apr 12, 2012 - 09:04 AM |
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Joined: Dec 16, 2005
Posts: 3094
Location: Bratislava, Slovakia
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| Any one-off or low-volume application, thanks to excellent low-volume availability here. |
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Posted: Apr 12, 2012 - 09:10 AM |
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Joined: Jun 19, 2002
Posts: 983
Location: SF Bay area
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| I'm curious as to what sorts of things you think PIC, PSOC and CM0 "excel" at? |
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Posted: Apr 12, 2012 - 09:24 AM |
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Joined: Mar 28, 2001
Posts: 20630
Location: Sydney, Australia (Gum trees, Koalas and Kangaroos, No Edelweiss)
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Quote:
what types of applications is AVR the best choice?
ANY application which needs a microntroller. |
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John Samperi
Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.
www.ampertronics.com.au
* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly
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Posted: Apr 12, 2012 - 10:42 PM |
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Joined: Jul 21, 2005
Posts: 1377
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westfw wrote:
I'm curious as to what sorts of things you think PIC, PSOC and CM0 "excel" at?
PIC18: my choice for low cost low performance but need modern peripherals such as usb host, ethernet MAC, and PHY.
PIC24/30/33: Not much experience, well priced, great mix of peripherals; motor control, usb host, etc... For anything DSP that needs to be done on the cheap, it is a good choice.
PIC32: They compete with the M3, on the higher end models they offer better performance and better value than high end M3s. So for any application in which you use a high end M3 for, the PIC32 could probably do as well of a job while being a bit cheaper.
PSOC: Any application that involves alot of analog, PSOC would be a great choice. This should also be true if you need very high performance digital peripherals, but I do not think their IDE allows easy development of custom digital peripherals yet. Big price premium for their chips, but if you can leverage the analog and digital peripherals properly, it is well worth the cost as you could eliminate most/all external digital and analog ICs.
Cortex M0: They seem to be the new AVR to me, great general platform, great overall performance, cheap, no particular weakness (well maybe it not being able toggle IO at high speed is it's biggest weakness). It is a very safe default choice for almost any application, no one will second guess or criticize you for using an M0. |
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Posted: Apr 12, 2012 - 10:57 PM |
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Joined: Mar 28, 2001
Posts: 20630
Location: Sydney, Australia (Gum trees, Koalas and Kangaroos, No Edelweiss)
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Alan why are you wasting our time if you are not interested in AVRs any more?  |
_________________
John Samperi
Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.
www.ampertronics.com.au
* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly
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Posted: Apr 12, 2012 - 11:10 PM |
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Joined: Jul 21, 2005
Posts: 1377
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It is not that I am not interested. I am well invested in AVR tools and sunk alot of time into understanding it.
I want to be able to leverage my AVR experience to good use, I am just looking for some insight into what paths AVR is best suited for and investigate it for myself. |
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Posted: Apr 12, 2012 - 11:11 PM |
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Joined: Nov 20, 2009
Posts: 251
Location: Virginia
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js wrote:
Alan why are you wasting our time if you are not interested in AVRs any more?
Leon is on vacation......  |
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Gary - W4GNS
Tel: BR549
In my many years I have come to a conclusion that one useless man is a shame, two is a law firm and three or more is a congress. -- John Adams
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Posted: Apr 12, 2012 - 11:21 PM |
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Joined: Mar 28, 2001
Posts: 20630
Location: Sydney, Australia (Gum trees, Koalas and Kangaroos, No Edelweiss)
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For every chip type one wants to use one has to invest a LOT of time to understand it's ins and outs and use it effectively.
Personally I don't want to do that anymore, I will use the best AVR for the job. If it can't be done then I don't take on the job. Nothing about being an AVR fanboy, I simply don't want to invest time and money on a zillion different tools. But I'm no longer young and naive....
For most applications it doesn't really matter what one uses as most micros will do similar things.
So "What is AVR best at?" that's what is being asked unless the thread title changes. |
_________________
John Samperi
Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.
www.ampertronics.com.au
* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly
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Posted: Apr 12, 2012 - 11:42 PM |
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Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6211
Location: Long Island New York
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Quote:
Leon is on vacation......
NICE!!
Quote:
For every chip type one wants to use one has to invest a LOT of time to understand it's ins and outs and use it effectively.
Personally I don't want to do that anymore, I will use the best AVR for the job.
Agree 100%
Quote:
If it can't be done then I don't take on the job
Wish I had that kind of cash 
I would like to learn the Cortex stuff. Get into 16bit units, but it looks like 32 is the way to go.
As far as the title goes:
The one that fits the job. Seems this topic rears it's head every so often  |
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
I am trying to 'C' the light. One function at a time.
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Posted: Apr 13, 2012 - 12:39 AM |
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Joined: Mar 28, 2001
Posts: 20630
Location: Sydney, Australia (Gum trees, Koalas and Kangaroos, No Edelweiss)
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Quote:
Get into 16bit units
No point.
Quote:
32 is the way to go
Not sure about that either.
The much taunted code size reduction for the M0 vs the AVR is a bit of nonsense. And why would I want to use a 32 bit 48MHz processor when an 8 bit 4MHz will do? |
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John Samperi
Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.
www.ampertronics.com.au
* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly
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Posted: Apr 13, 2012 - 01:09 AM |
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Joined: Jul 21, 2005
Posts: 1377
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I do not think there is any code size reduction going from AVR to M0, the opposite is true. The M0 runs 16 bit instructions, the compiled code is not 2x the size of 8bit code, I would say maybe 25%-50% larger.
I am not doing this thread to bad mouth AVR, I just want to know what AVR is best in class at. Is it one of the few micros that can toggle io at CPU clock speed? If that is the case, then if I need to bit bang multiple serial connections I will use AVR. Is it better than the rest/most when it comes to power consumption? if so then I will use AVR when I have a battery powered application.
I know it is one of the very few micros with a well developed and free C compiler. So if I do an open source project, AVR would be on the top of my list. |
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Posted: Apr 13, 2012 - 03:48 AM |
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Joined: Mar 28, 2001
Posts: 20630
Location: Sydney, Australia (Gum trees, Koalas and Kangaroos, No Edelweiss)
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Quote:
I would say maybe 25%-50% larger.
NXP CLAIMs that it can be up to 40% SMALLER!!  |
_________________
John Samperi
Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.
www.ampertronics.com.au
* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly
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Posted: Apr 13, 2012 - 04:08 AM |
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Joined: Sep 04, 2002
Posts: 21390
Location: Orlando Florida
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| The M0 has 16 bit instructions. The AVR has 16 bit instructions. Where's the win again? |
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Imagecraft compiler user
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Posted: Apr 13, 2012 - 04:40 AM |
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Joined: Jul 21, 2005
Posts: 1377
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js wrote:
Quote:
I would say maybe 25%-50% larger.
NXP CLAIMs that it can be up to 40% SMALLER!!
I think they mean smaller WRT to 32 bit code. |
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Posted: Apr 13, 2012 - 04:54 AM |
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Joined: Mar 28, 2001
Posts: 20630
Location: Sydney, Australia (Gum trees, Koalas and Kangaroos, No Edelweiss)
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| I think the graph I remember from a seminar was in relation to a M644p. Can't remember too well I was ROFL... |
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John Samperi
Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.
www.ampertronics.com.au
* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly
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Posted: Apr 13, 2012 - 05:39 AM |
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Joined: Jun 19, 2002
Posts: 983
Location: SF Bay area
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Quote:
NXP CLAIMs that it can be up to 40% SMALLER!!
54% smaller on CoreMark benchmarks. Which are essentially all 32bit arithmetic.
Interestingly, ARMs get slower on 8bit operations. Unlike some CPUs (x86, 68k) the ARM doesn't have any math operations (add/etc) on less than 32bits, so doing an 8bit add involves fetch, extend, add, and truncate. Which is sort of sad since there are a couple generations of microcontroller programmers used to using the smallest data type possible... |
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Posted: Apr 13, 2012 - 06:17 PM |
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Joined: Oct 05, 2006
Posts: 2297
Location: Poland
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1. AVRFreaks community.
2. Popularity (local shops == low shipping cost).
3. 400mA+400mA supply current.
4. 40mA IO current (if you do not care about logic levels).
5. Wide operating voltage (1.8 to 5,5V)
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No RSTDISBL, no fun!
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Posted: Apr 15, 2012 - 06:02 AM |
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Joined: Jul 21, 2005
Posts: 1377
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Brutte wrote:
1. AVRFreaks community.
2. Popularity (local shops == low shipping cost).
3. 400mA+400mA supply current.
4. 40mA IO current (if you do not care about logic levels).
5. Wide operating voltage (1.8 to 5,5V)
1. I agree, AVRFreaks is AVR's biggest strength
2. I do not totally agree, it is a factor but not a big one.
3. not sure what you mean
4. Yes, that is a very good feature, most other uCs are 25ma or less.
5. Agree, very good operating voltage range, it seems to be particular to 8 bit. Once you move up to 16/32, the upper limit is 3.3v usually. |
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Posted: Apr 15, 2012 - 10:33 AM |
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Joined: Oct 05, 2006
Posts: 2297
Location: Poland
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toalan wrote:
3. not sure what you mean
http://www.avrfreaks.net/index.php?name ... 519#907519
Quote:
4. Yes, that is a very good feature, most other uCs are 25ma or less.
ARMs stay in a single digit mA range.
Quote:
Once you move up to 16/32, the upper limit is 3.3v usually.
I have some Nuvoton CM0 in here. Those are powered with 2,5 to 5,5V |
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Posted: Apr 18, 2012 - 08:40 AM |
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Joined: Oct 04, 2008
Posts: 413
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Posted: Apr 18, 2012 - 09:03 AM |
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Joined: Jul 02, 2005
Posts: 6037
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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gdhospers wrote:
I got this invitation: http://www.logic.nl/News/seminars.aspx#LPC4300
And I will get this board:
gdhospers wrote:
But I will let it go. Because I am not interested in writing bulky programs that fill nice coloured LCD screens. That is the danger of ARM's I think: they tend to distract you from the core microcontroller job.
AVR's and a character LCD screen are good enough for me!
You are not alone there ...
Cheers,
Ross |
_________________
Ross McKenzie
ValuSoft
Melbourne Australia
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Posted: Apr 18, 2012 - 11:39 AM |
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Joined: Dec 16, 2005
Posts: 3094
Location: Bratislava, Slovakia
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A couple of years ago I accepted an invitation to a seminar, where I payed a couple hundreds of euros for a devboard, for which I then spent considerable time writing bulky libraries that among others filled the nice coloured LCD screen.
It was this board...
JW |
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Posted: Apr 18, 2012 - 01:36 PM |
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Joined: Jul 02, 2005
Posts: 6037
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Ross McKenzie
ValuSoft
Melbourne Australia
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Posted: Apr 18, 2012 - 09:27 PM |
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Joined: Jul 21, 2005
Posts: 1377
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Brutte wrote:
toalan wrote:
3. not sure what you mean
http://www.avrfreaks.net/index.php?name ... 519#907519
Quote:
4. Yes, that is a very good feature, most other uCs are 25ma or less.
ARMs stay in a single digit mA range.
Quote:
Once you move up to 16/32, the upper limit is 3.3v usually.
I have some Nuvoton CM0 in here. Those are powered with 2,5 to 5,5V
Thanks for the info, I did not know that AVR has such robust current driving capabilities. I knew they were good, but not this good.
I am currently working with Nuvoton M0, I believe the max current output is 25ma, but greater than ~10ma and you begin to see the rdson of the FETs eating away at the output. Toshiba and Hitachi also have CM0 that can operate upto 5v, but nuvoton is the only one with that ability and that is available for purchase. |
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Posted: Apr 18, 2012 - 09:44 PM |
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Joined: Oct 05, 2006
Posts: 2297
Location: Poland
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toalan wrote:
I did not know that AVR has such robust current driving capabilities.
This table is the second place I study in a typical datasheet, just after errata, which is always at the first place: |
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Posted: Apr 19, 2012 - 12:17 AM |
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Joined: Mar 28, 2001
Posts: 20630
Location: Sydney, Australia (Gum trees, Koalas and Kangaroos, No Edelweiss)
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I don't know what the big fuss is about how much current a chip can suplly at each pin.
Anything more than 2 or 3mA is TOO MUCH. |
_________________
John Samperi
Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.
www.ampertronics.com.au
* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly
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Posted: Apr 19, 2012 - 02:38 AM |
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Joined: Jun 19, 2002
Posts: 983
Location: SF Bay area
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Quote:
Anything more than 2 or 3mA is TOO MUCH.
I dunno. Being able to drive LED directly is pretty nice. Likewise driving moderate-current BJT transistors well into saturation... |
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Posted: Apr 19, 2012 - 10:08 AM |
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Joined: Oct 05, 2006
Posts: 2297
Location: Poland
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js wrote:
Anything more than 2 or 3mA is TOO MUCH.
Is this remark related to AVRs, NUCs or uCc in general?
I do not think there is anything like "TOO MUCH" in the design as long as it meets specification.
I am aware that Absolute Maximum Ratings is the limit, and the functionality of the chip is not tested/guaranteed at that ratings.
AVRs are unique in the subject because those have relatively low Rds_on, about 20 ohms typically at Vcc=5V. I have never met a chip with such IO drives.
Not far from being an integrated half-bridge array with a core, I would say.
Does anyone know some other uCs with a 400mA current limit rating of power pins? In QFN44? |
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No RSTDISBL, no fun!
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Posted: Apr 19, 2012 - 11:29 PM |
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Joined: Mar 28, 2001
Posts: 20630
Location: Sydney, Australia (Gum trees, Koalas and Kangaroos, No Edelweiss)
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If anyone needs more that a few mA out of their chip one should use a FET, Darlington transistor or even plain transistor to drive a heavy load. My usual base resistor is 10K or 4K7 in some cases if using a transistor, 2mA into a good LED will be very bright, still usable with cheap LEDs for on board status indication.
Hey but I make my stuff to last forever anyone can do what they want. |
_________________
John Samperi
Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.
www.ampertronics.com.au
* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly
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Posted: Apr 20, 2012 - 02:28 AM |
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Joined: Jul 21, 2005
Posts: 1377
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| How much does a P+N Fet buffer cost, maybe 25 cents, seems cheap but do that for a few io then consider that the uC itself maybe in the $1-$3 range, most likely your money is better spent finding a uC will most of the features you want and do away with external components. |
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