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 Posted: Mar 16, 2012 - 02:45 PM |
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Joined: Oct 18, 2001
Posts: 357
Location: Eastern England.
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dalpilot wrote:
Profit margin is no indicator of evil. Oil companies have stockholders who expect that the company will do what it can to maximize profits and pay out dividends. That's a fiscal responsibility of a publicly traded company.
And what many people forget is that those stockholders in large profitable companies are often pension companies who are investing so that they can afford to pay us a pension when we retire. |
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Posted: Mar 16, 2012 - 04:37 PM |
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Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 62270
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
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Quote:
That makes me feel better. Knowing that all UK citizens are not zombies and will roll over for anything the govt puts on them. I'd like to know if the US government employees is more or less pct of the population than UK govt employees. Who is more top heavy?
When analyzing the "debt crisis" here recently I think they said that we'd recently tipped over the 50:50 point where more than half the population are government employed(*) and less than half are in manufacturing and service industries actually making the gross domestic product that keeps us all going. So we pay our tax to pay for the doctors and nurse and policemen and road sweepers and so on. Then they pay their taxes back to their employer (Her Majesty). What a curious world we live in!
(*) the 1.5 million people who work for the national health service alone count for a big chunk of the 20-25m odd "workers" in the UK. If my 50% figure is right I guess that makes 11-12m government workers in a country with a total population of about 65m. |
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Posted: Mar 16, 2012 - 05:55 PM |
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Joined: May 26, 2004
Posts: 2538
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
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clawson wrote:
When analyzing the "debt crisis" here recently I think they said that we'd recently tipped over the 50:50 point where more than half the population are government employed(*) and less than half are in manufacturing and service industries actually making the gross domestic product that keeps us all going. So we pay our tax to pay for the doctors and nurse and policemen and road sweepers and so on.
The fact is, you're going to pay for these services somehow. If you don't pay taxes so the government pays the doctor, you'll pay insurance so the insurance company pays the doctor. From my personal point of view it doesn't make a lot of difference. From a political point of view, you either believe the government should provide services or you don't. If you live in a country where the government controls health services, you're probably happy with it. If you live in the USA and have no experience of single-payer systems, you just have to believe what you're told.
For what it's worth, the amount I pay in social security and medicare taxes is about equal to what Cliff pays in National Insurance, but unlike him, I have to pay half as much again for medical insurance. Actually my employer pays it for me, but in reality it's part of my salary.
The real question is not the proportion of people that work for the government, but the proportion that work in productive manufacturing industries as compared to all kinds of service industries including government. If I mow your lawn and in return you wash my laundry, we're neither of us materially better off (service industry model). If I mow your lawn and you inspect it and fine me if I didn't trim the edges straight, I'm worse off and you're better off (government agency model). If I make you a widget and you bake me a cake, we're both materially better off (productive model). Money is not wealth; trading money does not generate wealth; services do not create wealth; governments do not create wealth. Only making things creates wealth. |
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Posted: Mar 16, 2012 - 06:16 PM |
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Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 62270
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
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Quote:
From my personal point of view it doesn't make a lot of difference. From a political point of view, you either believe the government should provide services or you don't.
My experience of private versus public healthcare here suggest and "chalk and cheese" in fact. But having said that private is OK for non critical healthcare but if I suddenly needed a heart bypass I'd want it done by NHS (govt. employed) surgeons who are undoubtedly the masters at that kind of thing. The socialist in me says that everyone in the population should have an equal right to the same level of healthcare while the selfish bastard in me says a private room, multi-channel telly and gourmet meals are rather nice. So rather curiously I vote "yes" to both public and private healthcare 
(and yes, being in a middle management role my company pay for my healthcare and I'd expect it'd be the same for any "professional" here - you sort of expect it as a matter of course).
Quote:
Only making things creates wealth.
Including "ethereal" software?  |
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Posted: Mar 16, 2012 - 06:48 PM |
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Joined: May 26, 2004
Posts: 2538
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
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clawson wrote:
Quote:
Only making things creates wealth.
Including "ethereal" software?
Good question. It depends what it does. It doesn't directly create tangible wealth, but most business software is effectively creating a servant, freeing up the meatware to increase its productivity doing other things. In that sense it does pretty much the same job as a washing machine or a vacuum cleaner and I would say yes, it potentially increases your personal wealth to the extent that you have more available time to create some.
Other software, gray area. Widgets won't work without embedded firmware, but the firmware can be infinitely reproduced at no cost, so once it's done it doesn't really count as part of the manufacturing. Games and entertainment software I would put in the same category as movies, music and education, ie a service. I can write you a game and in exchange you can write me a video player, and we're neither of us able to put bread on the table as a result.
(Note, I'm restricting my definition of trade to exchange of goods and services, not including money in the loop. Sure you can sell software for money and use money to buy things, but somewhere down the line, however far, that money exists because somebody manufactured something of value.) |
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Posted: Mar 17, 2012 - 12:46 AM |
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Joined: Sep 04, 2002
Posts: 21257
Location: Orlando Florida
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| The city, county and state governments seem to get stuff done with about 10 employees per 1000 population... about 1%. The US federal government seems to be in hyperinflation mode, but with 330 million people, I think its way past 3.3 million federal employees. In a business, every employee needs to earn his salary every year. You take in as much as you pay out just to break even. The few employees that don't charge to an open charge number charge to overhead. The boss, his secretary, etc. The federal government is all overhead. The money the company/country takes in is from the taxpayers. When the books go into the red, the overhead gets cut. I cant actually believe half the UK population works for the government. Who writes their review? What happens when 90% of the people work for the government? Everyone gets a free crappy apartment, some tickets for some free crappy food? Crappy doctors who dont get paid any more than any other civil servant punch in and punch out. No one owns any property? Is this what Lenin and Trotsky really dreamed of? Crikey. No wonder it all crumbled/imploded. |
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Imagecraft compiler user
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Posted: Mar 17, 2012 - 01:17 AM |
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Joined: Sep 20, 2003
Posts: 4064
Location: Surrey, England
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Stop it, Bob.
Stop trying to pick a fight.
Here in the UK we are not communists. Please stop talking as though we were.
The differential between rich and poor has increased immensely over the past twenty years, just as it has in the USA.
We have a conservative government at the moment(that's right wing - not communist).
However, the economy is wrecked because most people fondly imagined that house prices, stocks and shares etc. would keep rising indefinitely.
So just the same as in your neck of the woods.
A whole lot of this all happened under a socialist government, although now we have a right wing/capitalist government.
In your country, as far as I can understand, the * happened under a right wing republican government, although now you have a democratic president.
What does all this prove? Beats me.
What I do know, however, is that if everything was clear-cut black and white, good and evil, PIC versus AVR, I think most people would vote for the good guy in the white hat. Only problem is, there isn't one.
They're all career politicians, and they'll all say whatever they need to say to get elected.
Have you ever been to England?
I visit the USA at least once a year, as I have an American wife and countless American brothers in law.
As for the "no-one owns any property" remark, words fail me. In England I believe we have had the homeowner culture longer than you, and it's widely regarded as one of the driving forces behind the current crisis. Do the words "sub prime" mean anything to you? |
Last edited by John_A_Brown on Mar 17, 2012 - 01:51 AM; edited 1 time in total
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Posted: Mar 17, 2012 - 01:29 AM |
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Joined: Sep 04, 2002
Posts: 21257
Location: Orlando Florida
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| I was trying to imagine the end evolution of bigger and bigger government. I wasnt disrespecting the English. The guys from Russia could probably tell us what it was like trying to live in a classless worker's paradise. I bet every Russian in the US and the UK left seeking a place that has some opportunity. Don't you use the same technique to do a what-if at each end of the spectrum to see which way is better or worse? Anyone that has any concept of individual freedom can't possibly stand by while every decision is made by an unelected bureaucrat. I'm sorry you viewed my Platonic Dialectic technique as trying to pick a fight. I was truly trying to compare and contrast living conditions at various degrees of Centralized Government Planning. I'd like less of it. Perhaps others want more of it. |
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Imagecraft compiler user
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Posted: Mar 17, 2012 - 01:50 AM |
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Joined: Sep 20, 2003
Posts: 4064
Location: Surrey, England
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Russia is maybe not the best example these days. I believe things are fairly ugly there since the fall of communism.
But then I've never been there, so I may be simply swallowing what the news reports feed me.
I'd probably like to see less Centralized Government Planning as well, but I do believe in some sort of safety net for those who would otherwise fall through the cracks of society. I think that carrying a few scroungers is a small price to pay for that, and I'm pretty certain that in the USA you don't really let poor people die in the streets if they have no medical insurance.
Anyway, rest assured that we are able to make certain decisions for ourselves over here. We are allowed, for example, to have an opened bottles of beer in an automobile, although we're not allowed to stow a handgun under the seat. We don't have to carry a litter bag in the car(as is the case in WA), but we have much stricter regulations for guarding of table saw blades. |
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Posted: Mar 17, 2012 - 02:42 AM |
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Joined: Aug 13, 2006
Posts: 6700
Location: Bellingham, WA - USA
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Quote:
We don't have to carry a litter bag in the car(as is the case in WA)
We also have a law that says it's illegal to use a hand held cell phone while driving, but it's widely ignored. I don't have a litter bag, other than the floor of the car. |
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Chuck Baird
"It's better to catch the trapeze than test the safety net" -- RPi book
http://www.cbaird.org
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Posted: Mar 17, 2012 - 03:08 AM |
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Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6066
Location: Long Island New York
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Mr. Brown wrote:
Quote:
Do the words "sub prime" mean anything to you?
Sure do to me.
Got lied to and I have been told the only cure to my SP variable interet rate is to stop payments and ruin my credit rating and hire a lawyer. I bought the house for $400k ten years ago, my payments go up 500 almost twice a year, and in the ten years I have $2000 paid towards principle. No equity as a result. The house has devalued 50%.
$400k is the purchase price, and after the 40year mortgage is paid up, I will have given the bank $1.4 million. |
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Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
Timer function not working properly? Check CLKDIV8 Fuse first
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Posted: Mar 17, 2012 - 03:16 AM |
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Joined: Sep 04, 2002
Posts: 21257
Location: Orlando Florida
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| This is a truly unique way of learning how the others live overseas. John B... I have spent a week or so in England several times... first time about 76, stayed in the Grosvenor Hotel on Picadilly Circle, took the express to Stevenage to learn how the BAE Rapier system worked so I could make them a simulator. Next time I stayed in Stevenage at the Cromwell Hotel which was 400 years old. One other time at the Garden Hotel in Welwyn Garden City. They had a 4 star continental service restaurant and after 2 weeks, we had had everything on the menu twice. Beef Wellington. Steak Dianne. Tournedos. Gained a couple of pounds. Me & Greg had a Cortina with no smog pumps like the US version and it would pull right up to the redline. We headed to Yeovil on the M4 to go to Westlands, checked out Stonehenge and the crop circles. Stayed in Torquay at the Rock Walk. Is that where Basil Fawlty lived? Saw Denvonshire Castle on the moors. It was all just like the Avengers and Emma Peel. Hedgerows and MGBs. Way Cool. Loved it. One time I stayed in a Covent Garden B&B and hung out at the Marquee Club on Wardor St trying to channel what it was like to see the Stones there in the 60s. Went to the Hammersmith Odeon. Saw Roy Orbison at the Albert Hall. Went to a club in Camden Lock in vogue at the time and had to really run to get the last train back to my hotel. I was in my 20s at the time. Time Out magazine had the schedule of every club and every band in the city. I cherish the English connection to my yank roots. This was the middle of the punk period, after the mods and rockers, but everyone was impeccably dressed on the high street. I bought an expensive leather jacket at Harrod's. Still have it. Can't wait to return. Thanks for asking. |
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Posted: Mar 17, 2012 - 04:36 AM |
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Joined: Jan 09, 2007
Posts: 1867
Location: Arlington, Texas, U.S.A.
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Posted: Mar 17, 2012 - 08:47 AM |
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Joined: Sep 20, 2003
Posts: 4064
Location: Surrey, England
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gchapman wrote:
John_A_Brown wrote:
... but we have much stricter regulations for guarding of table saw blades.
People Who Are Destroying America - SawStop (Colbert Nation).
As an amateur woodworker, I have seen the Sawstop footage several times already. It's fascinating, but I generally cut timber on my table saw. I use a plain old kitchen knife for Frankfurters.
There is also the seat belt/airbag argument, i.e. the more safety devices you build into a thing the more risks the user will take.
Of course the makers of SawStop want the law changed, they are in business to make a profit(see posts above). I don't believe the EU regulators have the same motivation, although there might be some lobbying that goes on.
But I'm not sure that I understand what point you are making, do you think saw users need more state protection, or less?
Incidentally, an old colleague of mine visited Japan a long time ago, and, on seeing workers using totally unguarded machinery with no push-sticks, asked what would happen if they got their hands in the way. His Japanese host looked puzzled, "Why would they do that?" he asked.
[This is one of those stories that everyone has heard from friend who visited Japan, so it's probably not true].
P.S. I can't actually view the video you linked to, probably because I'm in the UK(I see a Canadian poster had the same problem). Maybe if I was able to view it I'd understand the point you make. Sorry about that. |
Last edited by John_A_Brown on Mar 17, 2012 - 10:33 AM; edited 1 time in total
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Posted: Mar 17, 2012 - 09:12 AM |
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Joined: Sep 20, 2003
Posts: 4064
Location: Surrey, England
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bobgardner wrote:
This is a truly unique way of learning how the others live overseas. John B... I have spent a week or so in England several times... first time about 76, stayed in the Grosvenor Hotel on Picadilly Circle, took the express to Stevenage to learn how the BAE Rapier system worked so I could make them a simulator. Next time I stayed in Stevenage at the Cromwell Hotel which was 400 years old. One other time at the Garden Hotel in Welwyn Garden City. They had a 4 star continental service restaurant and after 2 weeks, we had had everything on the menu twice. Beef Wellington. Steak Dianne. Tournedos. Gained a couple of pounds. Me & Greg had a Cortina with no smog pumps like the US version and it would pull right up to the redline. We headed to Yeovil on the M4 to go to Westlands, checked out Stonehenge and the crop circles. Stayed in Torquay at the Rock Walk. Is that where Basil Fawlty lived? Saw Denvonshire Castle on the moors. It was all just like the Avengers and Emma Peel. Hedgerows and MGBs. Way Cool. Loved it. One time I stayed in a Covent Garden B&B and hung out at the Marquee Club on Wardor St trying to channel what it was like to see the Stones there in the 60s. Went to the Hammersmith Odeon. Saw Roy Orbison at the Albert Hall. Went to a club in Camden Lock in vogue at the time and had to really run to get the last train back to my hotel. I was in my 20s at the time. Time Out magazine had the schedule of every club and every band in the city. I cherish the English connection to my yank roots. This was the middle of the punk period, after the mods and rockers, but everyone was impeccably dressed on the high street. I bought an expensive leather jacket at Harrod's. Still have it. Can't wait to return. Thanks for asking.
Bob, I had you pegged as one of those Americans who'd never been outside their home state and thought London was just up the street from Bagdhad. Believed the Queen was in charge of the armed forces in Iraq - that sort of thing.
I was wrong. It turns out you are a hardened globe-trotter who could give Bill Bryson a run for his money.
I apologize.
However, when you visited England before, it wasn't a communist country. I can assure you that it still isn't.
I am not anti-American. Indeed, I may possibly retire there, if the economics of such a move remain as favourable as they are today. If I do, I will immediately remove all guarding from my power tools and chop a few digits off. Then stick two fingers up at the nannying EU. That'l learn 'em.
Basil Fawlty did indeed live in Torquay, or would have done if he were a real person.
Can't find any Devonshire Castle, BTW. Could it have been Compton Castle? |
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Posted: Mar 17, 2012 - 12:45 PM |
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Joined: Sep 04, 2002
Posts: 21257
Location: Orlando Florida
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| Okehampton according to your link below? |
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Imagecraft compiler user
Last edited by bobgardner on Mar 17, 2012 - 01:30 PM; edited 1 time in total
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Posted: Mar 17, 2012 - 01:27 PM |
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Joined: Sep 20, 2003
Posts: 4064
Location: Surrey, England
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Posted: Mar 17, 2012 - 06:20 PM |
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Joined: Jan 09, 2007
Posts: 1867
Location: Arlington, Texas, U.S.A.
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John_A_Brown wrote:
But I'm not sure that I understand what point you are making,...
None; my intent was humor injection (that fell flat; see last statement).
John_A_Brown wrote:
... do you think saw users need more state protection, or less?
No answer; I'm not in the co-creation chain where a table saw is used. But with my recall of a junior high school woodshop safety film, my answer is more especially for those under the age of majority.
John_A_Brown wrote:
P.S. I can't actually view the video you linked to, probably because I'm in the UK(I see a Canadian poster had the same problem). Maybe if I was able to view it I'd understand the point you make. Sorry about that.
I apologize for misleading you to content that may only be targetted to US residents. |
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Posted: Mar 18, 2012 - 12:13 AM |
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Joined: Dec 22, 2008
Posts: 359
Location: nr Bundaberg, Australia
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In the outback (Australia) I'm used to paying $2+ a litre, so when I hit civilisation and pay "only" $1.50 I think all my Christmases have come at once.
As for excessive profits, I was well happy a few years ago when my investments were making 15-20% so I (and probably most of us) are partially to blame. Now I have everything in cash so I can start practising my Holier than thou speech 
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Rob |
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Posted: Mar 18, 2012 - 04:49 PM |
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Joined: Nov 17, 2004
Posts: 13825
Location: Vancouver, BC
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Quote:
I pointed out in my rebuttal to Jim that the govt taxes were more than the evil oil company profit
But taxes are not profit. Profit is the amount of income in surplus of the expenses. Since the U.S. is taking in $3 trillion and spending $4 trillion, you should be extremely happy that the government has such a large non-evil negative profit margin  |
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Regards,
Steve A.
The Board helps those that help themselves.
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