| Author |
Message |
|
|
 Posted: Mar 13, 2012 - 05:46 PM |
|
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6061
Location: Long Island New York
|
|
After listening for what seemed like eternity on the subject of petrol pricing I ask the question:
What are you paying for automobile petrol? Your country and general area would be helpful.
I'll start:
AVG: $3.99+9/10 u.s.d.
Petrol Grade: 87
Locaation: Long Island New York
Country: USA |
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
Timer function not working properly? Check CLKDIV8 Fuse first 
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 13, 2012 - 06:12 PM |
|
Joined: Oct 23, 2010
Posts: 25
|
|
| The cheapest in Greece at the moment must be about 1,7€ per litre for 95 octane gasoline. That makes it 8,47 USD per US gallon at the current exchange rate. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 13, 2012 - 06:27 PM |
|
Joined: Apr 16, 2001
Posts: 3522
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
|
|
| Same gas for $3.79 in Phoenix, but it varies widely depending on which part of the valley you're in, something that never made sense to me. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 13, 2012 - 06:35 PM |
|
Joined: Dec 17, 2005
Posts: 1498
Location: Europe- Estonia- Tallinn
|
|
| According to Googles conversion search I'm paying 1.42 € / Litre = 7.03140996 U.S.D / US gallon in Estonia. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 13, 2012 - 06:57 PM |
|
Joined: Jan 03, 2006
Posts: 4410
Location: Hemel Hemsptead, UK
|
|
| £1.40 for petrol, £1.42 for diesel in the UK tonight, per *litre*, so petrol is £6.37/uk £5.30/us gallon - $8.31/us gallon. |
_________________
Neil Barnes
www.nailed-barnacle.co.uk
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 13, 2012 - 07:27 PM |
|
Joined: Nov 17, 2004
Posts: 13815
Location: Vancouver, BC
|
|
In Vancouver it is ~$1.4 per liter, which is about $5.30 per gallon (ignoring the exchange rate as it is roughly equal for the moment). It is still worth driving down to the U.S. to fill up on gas.
Chuck asked me a while ago by PM (which I had not replied to since I had forgotten about it until now) asked about milk prices in Canada since he continually sees Canadians buying milk at the Bellingham Costco. At the moment, milk is about $5.00 per gallon (or maybe it is per 4 liters, which would make it even more expensive, I'll have to look at the jug). So milk and gas cost about the same. I guess my design for a milk burning engine can go on the back burner for now  |
_________________
Regards,
Steve A.
The Board helps those that help themselves.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 13, 2012 - 07:27 PM |
|
Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 62209
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
|
|
I thought I'd struck gold when I got unleaded for £1.38/litre last night
(just to be clear that of that £1.38 about £1.20 is tax and about 18p buys the petrol - the chancellor postponed a promised 3p/litre increase in tax a while back but it's due to come into force shortly)
As a litre is a common unit in all countries it might make for easier comparisons if everyone quotes cost per litre in US dollars using xe.net for the exchange rate between local and US currency.
So US$2.16/litre here.
As for milk, at tesco.com it's £1.18 for 4 pints. That is US$1.24/litre |
_________________
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 13, 2012 - 07:50 PM |
|
Joined: Feb 12, 2005
Posts: 16256
Location: Wormshill, England
|
|
I agree with the use of an international unit like the litre.
I think the whole world is happy to convert their local currency to US dollars.
I was struck by the thought of a consumer buying milk by the gallon, but then Americans only have 3.6 litres to their devalued gallon! And it is not far off the British 6-pint retail bottle (3.4 litre)
$5.00 for 3.6 litres of milk is a lot more than Europeans pay in supermarkets.
A farmer generally gets about 30% of the retail supermarket price. (or 15% of the petrol station retail price)
Edit. From Cliff's post, it looks as if Tesco are reducing their margins !!
David. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 13, 2012 - 08:06 PM |
|
Joined: May 04, 2007
Posts: 3529
Location: Geelong Australia, Home of the "Cats"
|
|
Fuel $1.40-$1.50 $US/litre (91 oct.)
Milk $1.05 $US/litre
Beer $4.00 $US/275ml glass in a pub
Petrol attracts an excise tax of 40 cents/litre and finally we pay a 10% GST (VAT) tax. Starting July 2012, we are to be charged a carbon tax as well. |
_________________
Charles Darwin, Lord Kelvin & Murphy are always lurking about!
Lee -.-
(If you haven't already done so, edit your PostNuke profile and let let us know where you are, what you do & what your interests are.)
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 13, 2012 - 08:24 PM |
|
Joined: Apr 02, 2002
Posts: 210
Location: UK/Eire
|
|
| Northern Ireland is slightly worse than Barnacle but only by a few pence. Republic of Ireland is cheaper than UK but not worth driving down there to get some unless you're passing (don't know the current figure). In some parts of Scotland (the highlands and islands) petrol is as high as £1.80 per litre ie ~$2.80 usd / litre. I wanna move to Canada or Estonia... |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 13, 2012 - 09:01 PM |
|
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6061
Location: Long Island New York
|
|
Hmmmmm, looks like the boor I was tormented by was correct. CRAP 
FWIW, milk goes for $2.99/gal usd in my neck of the woods at BJ's Wholesale. Costco about the same. Local markets i hits as high asa $5.60/gal usd
When I saw the breakdowns on what the oil companies make per $50.00usd fill up I really got pissed.
Oil company gets over $30.00usd per $50.00
Refinery gets about $10.00
Delivery costs around $7.00
Retailerr gets the rest to pay station expenses and maybe enough for dinner.
Exxon just posted record quarterly profits of $15billion USD. :evil |
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
Timer function not working properly? Check CLKDIV8 Fuse first
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 13, 2012 - 11:55 PM |
|
Joined: Apr 16, 2001
Posts: 3522
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
|
|
| But anytime they jack up the prices it's due to "political unrest in the middle East". Yeah right. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 14, 2012 - 12:00 AM |
|
Joined: Nov 02, 2009
Posts: 3239
Location: Zelenograd, Russia
|
|
Russia (Moscow):
Fuel: $0.9..$1/litre (91 or diesel).
Milk: $0.8..$1.5/litre.
Beer: $5..$10/pint in a pub, $1..$3/bottle (0.5L) in a supermarket.
Vodka: $4 (suspicious quality)..$15 (slightly better)/bottle (0.5L) in a supermarket.
Whisky: $10 (suspicious quality/origin)/$40 (slightly better)/bottle (0.75L) in a supermarket.
Robbery/police corruption/no life safety/reckless driving/2..3 hr/day traffic jams: free of charge everywhere, 24/7/365.
Welcome savers!  |
_________________
Warning: Grumpy Old Chuff. Reading this post may severely damage your mental health.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 14, 2012 - 12:13 AM |
|
Joined: Jul 02, 2005
Posts: 5918
Location: Melbourne, Australia
|
|
Jim,
Your retailers are doing well. Here in Melbourne they average about 2.5 cents per litre sold.
The 2 major supermarket chains in Australia have bought into the fuel retailing business and offer 4 cents off per litre if you spend $30 or more at their supermarket. Occasionally that jumps to 8 and even 12 cents per litre ... like around Christmas. They are slowly pushing the little independent retailers (fuel and supermarkets) out of business. They also play the weekly fuel price change game. You can see from the graph that Thursday is nominally the best day to buy fuel. I have seen a 15 cent jump in prices overnight and the petrol stations are deserted. |
_________________
Ross McKenzie
ValuSoft
Melbourne Australia
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 14, 2012 - 01:23 AM |
|
Joined: Sep 04, 2002
Posts: 21248
Location: Orlando Florida
|
|
|
jgmdesign wrote:
When I saw the breakdowns on what the oil companies make per $50.00usd fill up I really got pissed.
Oil company gets over $30.00usd per $50.00
Refinery gets about $10.00
Delivery costs around $7.00
Retailerr gets the rest to pay station expenses and maybe enough for dinner.
Exxon just posted record quarterly profits of $15billion USD. :evil
Bzzzt. You didn't mention the cost of the crude oil!
How stuff Works says this is the breakdown:
•Taxes: 13 cents
•Distribution and Marketing: 8 cents
•Refining: 14 cents
•Crude oil: 65 cents
So that $50 tank of gas has $32.50 of crude oil cost.
Google finance says Exxon has an 8% profit margin. Is that what you call evil? How about companies like Apple and Microsoft and Nike? Don't they have profit margins in the 20% range? So is that like three times as evil? What the oil companies need is more competition and less regulation, and then they'll settle on a little less margin. So they make $4 on that $50 tank of gas. And the govt takes $6.50 in taxes. THAT's whats evil. |
_________________
Imagecraft compiler user
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 14, 2012 - 02:18 AM |
|
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6061
Location: Long Island New York
|
|
Almost 30 billion in quarterly profits? The tax man ain't taking that much bro
Microsoft and apple are not posting those numbers |
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
Timer function not working properly? Check CLKDIV8 Fuse first
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 14, 2012 - 02:44 AM |
|
Joined: Sep 19, 2005
Posts: 765
Location: Belgium
|
|
EUR 1.76 / liter for 98 octane gasoline in Belgium. So $8.71 / gallon.
EUR 1.55 / liter for Diesel. So $7.67 / gallon. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 14, 2012 - 09:56 AM |
|
Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 62209
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
|
|
|
Quote:
Vodka: $4 (suspicious quality)..$15 (slightly better)/bottle (0.5L) in a supermarket.
$8/litre Vodka? I'm moving to Russia. Here even the cheapest supermarket label vodka is £15/litre - that's $23.5/litre |
_________________
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 14, 2012 - 10:03 AM |
|
Joined: Feb 12, 2005
Posts: 16256
Location: Wormshill, England
|
|
Cliff,
Would you want to drink the $8 vodka ?
You can buy 10 litre cans of regular veterinary methyl alcohol quite cheaply in the UK.
David. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 14, 2012 - 10:12 AM |
|
Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 62209
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
|
|
|
Quote:
Would you want to drink the $8 vodka ?
Sure - you usually mix it with something - Vodka itself does not have that strong a flavour. (though I can tell a Stolichnaya from a Smirnoff if drunk neat!) |
_________________
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 14, 2012 - 10:44 AM |
|
Joined: Sep 04, 2002
Posts: 21248
Location: Orlando Florida
|
|
|
jgmdesign wrote:
Almost 30 billion in quarterly profits? The tax man ain't taking that much bro
Microsoft and apple are not posting those numbers
Nope. Microsoft has a 31% profit margin, Apple 28%. What's wrong with Exxon making 8 cents on every dollar? Grocery stores seem to get along just fine with about a 3% profit margin. When Ceasar Obamus suspends the Constitution and declares himself El Presidente for Life, he'll teach those greedy corporations who is REALLY the Supreme Leader. Just Tell the CEOs to step aside, nationalize the software industry like he did with the cars and the banks, and pretty soon it will a Facist Dictatorship just like Tito, Franco, Musselini. Nice bunch. But we will have crappy rationed hospitals and everyone will work for the state and the taxes will be 90%. Brave New World. |
_________________
Imagecraft compiler user
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 14, 2012 - 11:06 AM |
|
Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 62209
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
|
|
Bob,
You do understand the new rules here regarding religion and politics don't you?
Cliff |
_________________
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 14, 2012 - 12:29 PM |
|
Joined: Oct 04, 2008
Posts: 406
|
|
The Dutch pay about €1.84/liter = ~2.40US$/liter
30% is product price
60% is all taxes
10% is margin for pump holder |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 14, 2012 - 01:02 PM |
|
Joined: Sep 04, 2002
Posts: 21248
Location: Orlando Florida
|
|
| Better add government tax policy comparisons between various regimes and Economic theory about profit vs profit margin, which has to do with capitalism, which has something to do with socialism and facism. My wife has some great recipes while we wait to be enslaved. |
_________________
Imagecraft compiler user
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 14, 2012 - 01:10 PM |
|
Joined: Feb 06, 2009
Posts: 830
Location: TN
|
|
| Bob for president! |
_________________
It all starts with a mental vision.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 14, 2012 - 01:13 PM |
|
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6061
Location: Long Island New York
|
|
@BOB,
I guess you make so much money that it is nothing to put fuel into your car...er limo.
Or you have a large stock portfolio in the big oil so you do not want that played with.
So micosoft has a huge profit margin as does apple. Are they posting the 'record' profits that the oil companies keep showing? NO. If they can pull 30 Billion on 8% then they can do quite well with say 5%
Oh, before the mods kill this thread because of the political path it seems to be going down Bob, if you are so all knowing then why not run for office and fix all our problems? |
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
Timer function not working properly? Check CLKDIV8 Fuse first
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 14, 2012 - 02:25 PM |
|
Joined: Nov 01, 2005
Posts: 6323
Location: Hilversum - the Netherlands
|
|
I always fill her up for € 10.- or € 15.- ....
The Dutch prices:
Euro 95 petrol: € 1.75 per litre
Super leadfree 98 (if available): € 1.85 per litre (this is the fuel she needs)
Diesel: € 1.43 per litre
Tax is large percentage of the fuelprices in the Netherlands.
Nard
Edit: Ah! the price of milk I forgot: lowest price for full fat milk: € 0.62 (Lidl) Normal price in supermarket is around € 1.- and even € 1.15 for "Boerenland" which is delicious ! |
_________________
Dragon broken ? Or problems with the Parallel Port Programmer ? Scroll down on my projects-page http://www.aplomb.nl/TechStuff/TechStuff.html for tips
Last edited by Plons on Mar 14, 2012 - 07:03 PM; edited 1 time in total
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 14, 2012 - 03:05 PM |
|
Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 62209
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
|
|
The PDF on this page is interesting:
http://www.racv.com.au/wps/wcm/connect/ ... uel+prices
It has petrol prices per litre for most countries in March 2012 but rather annoyingly leaves the reader to do the currency conversion.
(I cannot help thinking the UK may come top though!) |
_________________
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 14, 2012 - 03:09 PM |
|
Joined: Jan 04, 2005
Posts: 36
Location: Jura - France
|
|
French prices:
Unleaded 95 octane: 1.60 €/L, 2.10 US$/L.
Diesel: 1.40 €/L, 1.82 US$/L |
_________________
« J'ai pas Word, j'ai pas Windows, et j'ai pas la télé ! »
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 14, 2012 - 06:41 PM |
|
Joined: May 26, 2004
Posts: 2538
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
|
|
| This week in Nevada, 87 octane is $1.04 per liter (63 British Pee). Across the state line in Utah, $0.97 (lower state tax) and the other way, in California, $1.16 (higher tax). I pay $0.62 a liter for milk. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 14, 2012 - 08:57 PM |
|
Joined: Jul 02, 2005
Posts: 5918
Location: Melbourne, Australia
|
|
|
clawson wrote:
The PDF on this page is interesting:
http://www.racv.com.au/wps/wcm/connect/ ... uel+prices
It has petrol prices per litre for most countries in March 2012 but rather annoyingly leaves the reader to do the currency conversion.
(I cannot help thinking the UK may come top though!)
|
_________________
Ross McKenzie
ValuSoft
Melbourne Australia
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 14, 2012 - 10:02 PM |
|
Joined: Jul 10, 2006
Posts: 2654
Location: Minneapolis
|
|
Minneapolis: $1.00/liter
Never mind the cruel regulatory environment for fuel producers; consider what crap hard dangerous work it is. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 14, 2012 - 10:11 PM |
|
Joined: Mar 14, 2006
Posts: 905
|
|
| I have no clue why people are complaining about gas prices. When I am getting low on gas I put $20.00 in my tank. It used to take a while to put that much gas into my car. Now when I go to a gas station it takes less than two minutes to put $20.00 worth of gas in my car. I am saving so much time. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 15, 2012 - 02:20 AM |
|
Joined: Sep 04, 2002
Posts: 21248
Location: Orlando Florida
|
|
|
jgmdesign wrote:
@BOB,
I guess you make so much money that it is nothing to put fuel into your car...er limo.
Or you have a large stock portfolio in the big oil so you do not want that played with.
So micosoft has a huge profit margin as does apple. Are they posting the 'record' profits that the oil companies keep showing? NO. If they can pull 30 Billion on 8% then they can do quite well with say 5%
Oh, before the mods kill this thread because of the political path it seems to be going down Bob, if you are so all knowing then why not run for office and fix all our problems?
First sentence is the usual 'Ad Hominem Attack' which usually gets the issuer a stern censure from the moderators.
Second sentence is a thinly veiled attack against anyone with a retirement plan that is invested in the stock market. I would expect this from a Marxist or other communist idealog. Those dudes think everyone should be equally poor. Except for the party bosses.
I'm trying to think of a good example that makes the difference between profit and profit margin more understandable. Your position if I understand it is that you are a good company no matter how much profit margin you gouge your customers with, but the one quarter that you make more profit than any previous quarter, regardless of the profit margin, moves you into the evil category? To continue being a good company rather than an evil company, you must make slightly less profit every quarter until you go broke? No record profits allowed? |
_________________
Imagecraft compiler user
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 15, 2012 - 03:27 AM |
|
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6061
Location: Long Island New York
|
|
Hey BOB, THere was no Homenim attack. I use CAPITALS TO SHOUT!
Second sentence wasa not an attack, but a mild half arsed shot at you with sarcasm. But as usual, you have to bring up some more political crud as you always do.
From what I notice in this thread everyone is in the same boat and a few have brilliantly vented their frustraation on these higherr and higher fuel costs using sarcasm. But as usual BOB, you had to bring in the WTF ever political rhetoric you fuel your fire with and show that you are just an angry man who blames everything on govenment and any other agency, political or not.
As I stated BOB, why don't you run for office BOB and see how well you do.
Oh well, another perfectly good thread shot to hell.
Maybe I'll start another thread about barbecue saauce, but I am sure there is a government conspiracy on that stuff too. Right BOB |
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
Timer function not working properly? Check CLKDIV8 Fuse first
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 15, 2012 - 09:54 AM |
|
Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 62209
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
|
|
Bob / Jim,
Can you leave it there now? The alternative is that I simply start deleting things.
Remember this is a "happy place"
Cliff |
_________________
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 15, 2012 - 10:38 AM |
|
Joined: Sep 04, 2002
Posts: 21248
Location: Orlando Florida
|
|
| No one else has an opinion on whether an 8% profit margin is obscener than a 31% profit margin? How do you guys set the prices on your products? Parts + labor + some markup? What's the European rule of thumb for the price of an electronic gizmo with a micrcontroller in it? Over here, it gets marked up 30% twice before the retail buyer gets it. You have to mark it up at least 100% to make any money. Over here I thought that was how it worked. Now its obscene to make a profit? |
_________________
Imagecraft compiler user
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 15, 2012 - 10:58 AM |
|
Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 62209
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
|
|
|
Quote:
No one else has an opinion on whether an 8% profit margin is obscener than a 31% profit margin?
I think most people would accept that anything up to about 35-40% is an acceptable margin. Beyond that it starts to look like exploitation. OTOH in a capitalist society isn't price supposed to be set by supply/demand?
In the UK once (and threatened a couple of other times since) there were actually protests outside oil refineries that closed most petrol stations and brought most people's non-essential car journeys to a stand-still for a few weeks. This appeared to be hitting the upper bound of what people were willing to pay in that supply/demand equation.
But I agree that in this case the "villian" is not the oil company (they only break even or actually lose on petrol sales in fact - retail petrol sales are not where they make the big bucks) but it's the government loading petrol up with different duties/taxes which account for something like 64% of the cost of petrol. |
_________________
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 15, 2012 - 11:10 AM |
|
Joined: Oct 05, 2006
Posts: 2240
Location: Poland
|
|
Comparison would be more indicative if we specified the relationship between a GDP per capita and the price of the fuel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_domestic_product
List of countries with GDP per capita:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... per_capita
Or even simpler:
How much fuel one can buy for an average year salary (in dm3/year).
Retail fuel price of fuels in Poland:
Gasoline (Pb95, 95 octane, lead-less) is 5,6PLN/dm3 which gives about 1,77USD/dm3.
Diesel price is about the same or usually several percent higher than Pb95).
For Poland this gives about 7880dm3/year.
For USA(peret):
peret wrote:
This week in Nevada, 87 octane is $1.04 per liter (63 British Pee). Across the state line in Utah, $0.97 (lower state tax)
This gives 48050dm3/year.
For Russia(MBedder):
Quote:
Fuel: $0.9..$1/litre (91 or diesel).
This gives 14700dm3/year. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 15, 2012 - 11:42 AM |
|
Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 62209
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
|
|
I had to look it up. A "dm3" *is* a litre isn't it?
Anyway average salary here is something like £25,600 and petrol is about £1.39/l so I guess that makes 18,417 litres per year.
HOWEVER what about income and other tax? Average salary may be £25,600 but that's not what that person takes home (and has available for buying a swimming pool full of petrol). The tax burdern here on that salary is going to be at least 25% so do we reduce 18,417 by that amount?
Anyway clearly I need to move to the US before putting in that pool! |
_________________
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 15, 2012 - 12:55 PM |
|
Joined: Sep 04, 2002
Posts: 21248
Location: Orlando Florida
|
|
| Thanks for the civil exchange about profit margins and cost of living. That's what an international forum is good at. |
_________________
Imagecraft compiler user
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 15, 2012 - 12:59 PM |
|
Joined: Oct 05, 2006
Posts: 2240
Location: Poland
|
|
|
Quote:
I had to look it up. A "dm3" *is* a litre isn't it?
With SI:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SI
-meters[m] e+0,
-millimeters[mm] e-3,
-micrometers[um] e-6
-etc.
-kilometers[km] e+3 are also quite popular
And between e+0 and e-3 there are two:
-centimeters [cm] e-2,
-decimeters [dm] e-1
But I do not know how to insert [meter*meter*meter] (cube) mark so let it be [m3] or [m^3] in MATLAB notation.
Quote:
HOWEVER what about income and other tax?
The tax and its height has no influence on the GDP and thus no influence on GDP per capita/fuel price. You just take money from one citizen and give it to the other, but the average GDP stays exactly the same, no matter how you divide it between citizens.
So giving (GDP per capita)/(fuel_price_dm3) this is not what you are actually able to buy for your salary, because a part of this money will be spent for road construction, petrol stations, transport of crude oil, milk etc.
EDIT: Actually there is an error in such indicator:
(GDP per capita)/(fuel price)
because fuel price contains a tax so this tax should be subtracted from fuel price as this (division of the goods between citizens) does not influence the (average) "standard of living" (which is the core of this topic, I guess). |
Last edited by Brutte on Mar 15, 2012 - 01:10 PM; edited 2 times in total
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 15, 2012 - 12:59 PM |
|
Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 62209
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
|
|
| I think people tend to tar oil companies with the same brush as international banks simply because both make $bn profits so they all must "exploiting the man in the street". The gulf last April didn't help. But oil companies make billions simply because they invest billions in exploration and extraction. |
_________________
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 15, 2012 - 04:00 PM |
|
Joined: May 26, 2004
Posts: 2538
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
|
|
Brutte, that's an interesting and revealing way of comparing things, thanks. Of course, here in the USA I need my full allowance of 48,000 dm3 for the 300 and 400 cubic inch engines in the family's four runabouts. If we couldn't afford gas for the V8 we wouldn't be able to get to the shops, and we'd starve (eventually)
Petrol being the taxman's favorite cow, however, it's not a good commodity for comparing standards of living, or estimating what exchange rates ought to be. I've always used loaves of bread for that.
<edit: deliberate use of unfamiliar units> |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 15, 2012 - 04:37 PM |
|
Joined: Nov 17, 2004
Posts: 13815
Location: Vancouver, BC
|
|
|
Quote:
No one else has an opinion on whether an 8% profit margin is obscener than a 31% profit margin?
You are comparing two completely different industries. Apple and Microsoft need to continually improve old products and develop new products, or they go out of business. Also, much of what they sell, people can do without if they need to. It is far harder for people to do without gasoline and other petroleum products.
Quote:
Thanks for the civil exchange about profit margins and cost of living.
Interesting comment considering you started with:
Quote:
When Ceasar Obamus suspends the Constitution and declares himself El Presidente for Life, he'll teach those greedy corporations who is REALLY the Supreme Leader.
|
_________________
Regards,
Steve A.
The Board helps those that help themselves.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 15, 2012 - 04:49 PM |
|
Joined: Feb 12, 2005
Posts: 16256
Location: Wormshill, England
|
|
|
Quote:
Petrol being the taxman's favorite cow, however, it's not a good commodity for comparing standards of living, or estimating what exchange rates ought to be. I've always used loaves of bread for that.
I always thought that the official way to compare cost of living was the price of a Mars bar.
You compare how bad the world is with the size of a Wagon Wheel.
Americans have got a big country so drive longer distances. In Western Europe, journeys are shorter. The price of petrol per litre is less significant than the cost per typical journey.
Likewise people in hot countries use air conditioning.
Cold countries use heating.
I regard the quality of tea to be important.
I like beer too, but it is not an absolute necessity of life.
David. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 15, 2012 - 05:41 PM |
|
Joined: Sep 01, 2008
Posts: 327
Location: Atlanta, GA
|
|
|
bobgardner wrote:
No one else has an opinion on whether an 8% profit margin is obscener than a 31% profit margin?
Bob, I agree with you. Profit margin is no indicator of evil. Oil companies have stockholders who expect that the company will do what it can to maximize profits and pay out dividends. That's a fiscal responsibility of a publicly traded company.
Basically, supply and demand will determine what a product can be sold for on the open market. Profit will depend upon that, minus what expenses a company has.
I guess if they wanted to, the oil companies could all agree to sell gas for $1.00/gal USD. How happy would consumers be when the demand for that kind of cheap gas goes thru the roof and long lines form at gas stations as they run out?
Supply and demand is a negative feedback system that works pretty well if we can resist the temptation to drive the output (prices) by twiddling some other knob.
Greg |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 15, 2012 - 06:04 PM |
|
Joined: Aug 13, 2006
Posts: 6692
Location: Bellingham, WA - USA
|
|
It's interesting to see the international comparisons on the price of gasoline. I've always thought it was underpriced for its utility - the idea that you could put more than a ton of metal 30 or 40 miles down the road for a couple of dollars (well, $4 now) is pretty amazing.
It was a sad day (fairly recently) when $20 didn't fill up my car.
Time to amend the bumper sticker: Nice truck - too bad about your small penis [add "and wallet"] |
_________________
Chuck Baird
"It's better to catch the trapeze than test the safety net" -- RPi book
http://www.cbaird.org
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 15, 2012 - 07:09 PM |
|
Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 62209
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
|
|
|
Quote:
It was a sad day (fairly recently) when $20 didn't fill up my car.
It costs me about £70 to fill mine. That's US$110. Mine has a 60 litre tank - that's about 13 UK gallons. At about 28mpg it's good for about 370 miles.
(the eagle eyed amongst you will spot that 60 litres is not £70 at the UK £1.40/litre - that's because I'm not actually mad enough to run it dry ) |
_________________
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 15, 2012 - 07:43 PM |
|
Joined: Jan 03, 2006
Posts: 4410
Location: Hemel Hemsptead, UK
|
|
| You and me both, Cliff. And I'm commuting a hundred and twenty miles a day... |
_________________
Neil Barnes
www.nailed-barnacle.co.uk
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 15, 2012 - 07:55 PM |
|
Joined: May 02, 2007
Posts: 3007
Location: Nieuwegein, Netherlands
|
|
|
clawson wrote:
Quote:
It was a sad day (fairly recently) when $20 didn't fill up my car.
It costs me about £70 to fill mine. That's US$110. Mine has a 60 litre tank - that's about 13 UK gallons. At about 28mpg it's good for about 370 miles.
(the eagle eyed amongst you will spot that 60 litres is not £70 at the UK £1.40/litre - that's because I'm not actually mad enough to run it dry )
I can already see the headlines:
"expensive Porche driver ran dry today" with a text containing some thing that makes you an idiot to buy an extremely expensive car but not having the money to pay for the large amount of fuel it will happily consume. |
_________________
1)Datasheet and application notes checked?
2)tutorial forum
3)Newbie start here
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 15, 2012 - 09:50 PM |
|
Joined: May 04, 2007
Posts: 3529
Location: Geelong Australia, Home of the "Cats"
|
|
|
Quote:
You have to mark it up at least 100% to make any money. Over here I thought that was how it worked.
I guess the example is a little broad.
If I buy one resistor for 1 cent, I expect it to have it marked up by 1000 % tpo cover the cost of a transaction.
When I go to a dentist, doctor or buy an iSomething a 100% surcharge over and above the cost of production (& a modest profit to cover contingencies), just so that they can "make money". Money to do what? Buy up real estate, drive up prices for houses, make more money from renting to those who can never afford to own a house? Flaunt wealth & assets. Increase the gulf between the have's and the have not's.
Domestically a huge disparity between the wealthy & those living in poverty brings crime & misery. Internationally a disparity between the wealthy country brings about terrorism & wars.
I don't think anyone should run without making a profit, but I do not believe on obscene profits.
Quote:
Now its obscene to make a profit?
IMHO, it is obscene to make an obscene profit! I would call it exploitation! |
_________________
Charles Darwin, Lord Kelvin & Murphy are always lurking about!
Lee -.-
(If you haven't already done so, edit your PostNuke profile and let let us know where you are, what you do & what your interests are.)
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 15, 2012 - 11:19 PM |
|
Joined: May 26, 2004
Posts: 2538
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
|
|
In a free market with free competition, everything is sold for the maximum price the market will stand. There's nothing obscene about it - that's the way trade works. If you don't want to pay the price, don't buy the goods or service. If enough people agree with you, the price will fall. I have no doubt that you, Lee, sell your labor (or used to sell, if you are retired) for the maximum you could get for it.
In the case of your dentist, doctor, lawyer etc, that's not a free market. They have legal barriers set up to restrict trade and maintain artificially high prices. But take it up with your government, not your doctor - he's just doing the same thing you would, if you were in a tightly regulated profession with a strong enough union. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 15, 2012 - 11:31 PM |
|
Joined: Oct 05, 2006
Posts: 2240
Location: Poland
|
|
|
Quote:
IMHO, it is obscene to make an obscene profit!
And how about making only 99% of "obscene profit"? Does it still qualify as "obscene"?
Quote:
he's just doing the same thing you would,
I agree with peret.
If you accept a free market, you cannot disagree with how a free market works. With all of its consequences. If one is smarter than you and joins a guild, you should not blame him for that, as one makes it for his own profit - isn't it how you want it to be?
There were many other (hundreds?) of propositions of a "fair division of goods in the society". Just pick the one you like, google a little bit to find out how the idea works in a real world. I can recommend you should start from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_economy
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism
There were many, and there will be many more in the future so stay tuned. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 16, 2012 - 10:28 AM |
|
Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 62209
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
|
|
|
Quote:
When I go to a dentist, doctor or buy an iSomething a 100% surcharge over and above the cost of production (& a modest profit to cover contingencies), just so that they can "make money".
I think you'll find it's pretty unusual for anyone to be making a 100% profit. Take an iPad that sells from an online retailer in the UK for £399. Initially our Chancellor of the Exchequer takes 20% as Value Added Tax so the shop itself gets £332.5. Now the retailer probably wants to take 20% (at least) so he's buying it from Apple for £277. My guess is that they probably take something like 30% for themselves so the FOB price is £213. Duty and Freight (to make the calculations easy) maybe cost £13. So the factory ship it out for £200. They will want to take LOP (Labour, Overhead and Profit) which might be 10% so the BOM is £181.
Now if you think £181 for the Bill of Materials of an iPad that retails for £399 is too high I guess you are right that someone along the line is taking more than a modest 10/20/30% profit - but I kind of doubt it.
BTW look at how much everyone in the game really makes:
Chancellor: £339 - £332.5 = £66.50
Retailer: £332.5 - £277 = £55.5
Apple: £277 - £213 = £64
Freight/Government: £213 - £200 = £13
Factory: £200 - £181 = £19
Perhaps no surprise that the government actually makes more than anyone else!
When I was involved in consumer electronics we'd come up with the idea for a project - pick a price that we thought the market would bear/appreciate then work back exactly these kind of calculations to get us to a BOM cost that would be available. This told us whether (finger in the air) we'd actually be able to build the thing or not. On the whole one works on (roughly) BOM = 1/3rd of final retail.
EDIT: forgot Freight/Government in "who gets what". So the chancellor actually gets MORE than £66.50 ! |
_________________
Last edited by clawson on Mar 16, 2012 - 12:12 PM; edited 1 time in total
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 16, 2012 - 11:25 AM |
|
Joined: Sep 04, 2002
Posts: 21248
Location: Orlando Florida
|
|
| Cool. I pointed out in my rebuttal to Jim that the govt taxes were more than the evil oil company profit and Cliff confirms the UK govt also conficates a large amount. Seems that the public should be having hearings that subpoena the evil representatives and call them on the carpet for not rolling back the Federal gas taxes in this time of duress. I guess the founders imagined these hearings would be called Elections. |
_________________
Imagecraft compiler user
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 16, 2012 - 11:53 AM |
|
Joined: Feb 12, 2005
Posts: 16256
Location: Wormshill, England
|
|
Bob,
Think about it. World products broadly follow the world wholesale prices. e.g. oil, wheat, iron-ore, ...
If the US government chooses to have lower retail petrol prices than Europeans, it means they have to take lower taxes. The oil companies, refiners, filling stations will have similar costs throughout the western world.
The UK government has high fuel duties / taxes.
I think you will find that governments in general weigh up what they can get away with. e.g. how much tax on petrol, cigarettes, beer ...
I am fairly mellow ---- unless they put high taxes on tea.
David. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 16, 2012 - 12:18 PM |
|
Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 62209
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
|
|
|
Quote:
I think you will find that governments in general weigh up what they can get away with. e.g. how much tax on petrol, cigarettes, beer ...
Just to note that a few years ago VAT here was 15%. It then increased to 17.5% then as a result of "huge government debt" it's gone to 20% just over a year ago.
It's what many people he describe as a "stealth tax" as the government may bang on about "aren't we good? Income tax is at an all time low with the majority of income for an average worker being taxed at just 20%" but then they claw it back in other ways such as National Insurance (9% isn't it?) and then VAT on all non-essentials (20% and even 5% on heating fuel!), and (sometimes huge) duties on things like alcohol and petrol/diesel, also things like pensions now. Overall I don't think the tax burden has really changed since the war - it's just shuffled about a bit.
In theory, like most democracies, we have the chance to oust the current mob every 4 or 5 years if we don't like it but all we're really voting for is "more of the same". |
_________________
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 16, 2012 - 01:49 PM |
|
Joined: Sep 04, 2002
Posts: 21248
Location: Orlando Florida
|
|
| That makes me feel better. Knowing that all UK citizens are not zombies and will roll over for anything the govt puts on them. I'd like to know if the US government employees is more or less pct of the population than UK govt employees. Who is more top heavy? |
_________________
Imagecraft compiler user
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 16, 2012 - 02:16 PM |
|
Joined: Feb 12, 2005
Posts: 16256
Location: Wormshill, England
|
|
The Income Tax / National Insurance is a very effective con trick. There are more employees than employers, and quite honestly employees hardly notice the percentage of their income that goes in N.I. They do notice the headline Income Tax percentage. They do not even consider the larger percentage of N.I. that is the 'employer' contribution.
Incidentally, as with most taxation arrangements, the higher earners pay a lower percentage of N.I. or self-employed possibly avoid it altogether.
At the end of the day, I want my rubbish collected, roads maintained, education, health etc. So tax has to be raised somewhere. No-one enjoys paying. They just feel that others should pay more than they do.
I gave up smoking years ago, so I am happy for smokers to pay more tax. Porsche drivers too!
David. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 16, 2012 - 02:45 PM |
|
Joined: Oct 18, 2001
Posts: 352
Location: Eastern England.
|
|
|
dalpilot wrote:
Profit margin is no indicator of evil. Oil companies have stockholders who expect that the company will do what it can to maximize profits and pay out dividends. That's a fiscal responsibility of a publicly traded company.
And what many people forget is that those stockholders in large profitable companies are often pension companies who are investing so that they can afford to pay us a pension when we retire. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 16, 2012 - 04:37 PM |
|
Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 62209
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
|
|
|
Quote:
That makes me feel better. Knowing that all UK citizens are not zombies and will roll over for anything the govt puts on them. I'd like to know if the US government employees is more or less pct of the population than UK govt employees. Who is more top heavy?
When analyzing the "debt crisis" here recently I think they said that we'd recently tipped over the 50:50 point where more than half the population are government employed(*) and less than half are in manufacturing and service industries actually making the gross domestic product that keeps us all going. So we pay our tax to pay for the doctors and nurse and policemen and road sweepers and so on. Then they pay their taxes back to their employer (Her Majesty). What a curious world we live in!
(*) the 1.5 million people who work for the national health service alone count for a big chunk of the 20-25m odd "workers" in the UK. If my 50% figure is right I guess that makes 11-12m government workers in a country with a total population of about 65m. |
_________________
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 16, 2012 - 05:55 PM |
|
Joined: May 26, 2004
Posts: 2538
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
|
|
|
clawson wrote:
When analyzing the "debt crisis" here recently I think they said that we'd recently tipped over the 50:50 point where more than half the population are government employed(*) and less than half are in manufacturing and service industries actually making the gross domestic product that keeps us all going. So we pay our tax to pay for the doctors and nurse and policemen and road sweepers and so on.
The fact is, you're going to pay for these services somehow. If you don't pay taxes so the government pays the doctor, you'll pay insurance so the insurance company pays the doctor. From my personal point of view it doesn't make a lot of difference. From a political point of view, you either believe the government should provide services or you don't. If you live in a country where the government controls health services, you're probably happy with it. If you live in the USA and have no experience of single-payer systems, you just have to believe what you're told.
For what it's worth, the amount I pay in social security and medicare taxes is about equal to what Cliff pays in National Insurance, but unlike him, I have to pay half as much again for medical insurance. Actually my employer pays it for me, but in reality it's part of my salary.
The real question is not the proportion of people that work for the government, but the proportion that work in productive manufacturing industries as compared to all kinds of service industries including government. If I mow your lawn and in return you wash my laundry, we're neither of us materially better off (service industry model). If I mow your lawn and you inspect it and fine me if I didn't trim the edges straight, I'm worse off and you're better off (government agency model). If I make you a widget and you bake me a cake, we're both materially better off (productive model). Money is not wealth; trading money does not generate wealth; services do not create wealth; governments do not create wealth. Only making things creates wealth. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 16, 2012 - 06:16 PM |
|
Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 62209
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
|
|
|
Quote:
From my personal point of view it doesn't make a lot of difference. From a political point of view, you either believe the government should provide services or you don't.
My experience of private versus public healthcare here suggest and "chalk and cheese" in fact. But having said that private is OK for non critical healthcare but if I suddenly needed a heart bypass I'd want it done by NHS (govt. employed) surgeons who are undoubtedly the masters at that kind of thing. The socialist in me says that everyone in the population should have an equal right to the same level of healthcare while the selfish bastard in me says a private room, multi-channel telly and gourmet meals are rather nice. So rather curiously I vote "yes" to both public and private healthcare 
(and yes, being in a middle management role my company pay for my healthcare and I'd expect it'd be the same for any "professional" here - you sort of expect it as a matter of course).
Quote:
Only making things creates wealth.
Including "ethereal" software? |
_________________
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 16, 2012 - 06:48 PM |
|
Joined: May 26, 2004
Posts: 2538
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
|
|
|
clawson wrote:
Quote:
Only making things creates wealth.
Including "ethereal" software?
Good question. It depends what it does. It doesn't directly create tangible wealth, but most business software is effectively creating a servant, freeing up the meatware to increase its productivity doing other things. In that sense it does pretty much the same job as a washing machine or a vacuum cleaner and I would say yes, it potentially increases your personal wealth to the extent that you have more available time to create some.
Other software, gray area. Widgets won't work without embedded firmware, but the firmware can be infinitely reproduced at no cost, so once it's done it doesn't really count as part of the manufacturing. Games and entertainment software I would put in the same category as movies, music and education, ie a service. I can write you a game and in exchange you can write me a video player, and we're neither of us able to put bread on the table as a result.
(Note, I'm restricting my definition of trade to exchange of goods and services, not including money in the loop. Sure you can sell software for money and use money to buy things, but somewhere down the line, however far, that money exists because somebody manufactured something of value.) |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 17, 2012 - 12:46 AM |
|
Joined: Sep 04, 2002
Posts: 21248
Location: Orlando Florida
|
|
| The city, county and state governments seem to get stuff done with about 10 employees per 1000 population... about 1%. The US federal government seems to be in hyperinflation mode, but with 330 million people, I think its way past 3.3 million federal employees. In a business, every employee needs to earn his salary every year. You take in as much as you pay out just to break even. The few employees that don't charge to an open charge number charge to overhead. The boss, his secretary, etc. The federal government is all overhead. The money the company/country takes in is from the taxpayers. When the books go into the red, the overhead gets cut. I cant actually believe half the UK population works for the government. Who writes their review? What happens when 90% of the people work for the government? Everyone gets a free crappy apartment, some tickets for some free crappy food? Crappy doctors who dont get paid any more than any other civil servant punch in and punch out. No one owns any property? Is this what Lenin and Trotsky really dreamed of? Crikey. No wonder it all crumbled/imploded. |
_________________
Imagecraft compiler user
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 17, 2012 - 01:17 AM |
|
Joined: Sep 20, 2003
Posts: 4061
Location: Surrey, England
|
|
Stop it, Bob.
Stop trying to pick a fight.
Here in the UK we are not communists. Please stop talking as though we were.
The differential between rich and poor has increased immensely over the past twenty years, just as it has in the USA.
We have a conservative government at the moment(that's right wing - not communist).
However, the economy is wrecked because most people fondly imagined that house prices, stocks and shares etc. would keep rising indefinitely.
So just the same as in your neck of the woods.
A whole lot of this all happened under a socialist government, although now we have a right wing/capitalist government.
In your country, as far as I can understand, the * happened under a right wing republican government, although now you have a democratic president.
What does all this prove? Beats me.
What I do know, however, is that if everything was clear-cut black and white, good and evil, PIC versus AVR, I think most people would vote for the good guy in the white hat. Only problem is, there isn't one.
They're all career politicians, and they'll all say whatever they need to say to get elected.
Have you ever been to England?
I visit the USA at least once a year, as I have an American wife and countless American brothers in law.
As for the "no-one owns any property" remark, words fail me. In England I believe we have had the homeowner culture longer than you, and it's widely regarded as one of the driving forces behind the current crisis. Do the words "sub prime" mean anything to you? |
Last edited by John_A_Brown on Mar 17, 2012 - 01:51 AM; edited 1 time in total
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 17, 2012 - 01:29 AM |
|
Joined: Sep 04, 2002
Posts: 21248
Location: Orlando Florida
|
|
| I was trying to imagine the end evolution of bigger and bigger government. I wasnt disrespecting the English. The guys from Russia could probably tell us what it was like trying to live in a classless worker's paradise. I bet every Russian in the US and the UK left seeking a place that has some opportunity. Don't you use the same technique to do a what-if at each end of the spectrum to see which way is better or worse? Anyone that has any concept of individual freedom can't possibly stand by while every decision is made by an unelected bureaucrat. I'm sorry you viewed my Platonic Dialectic technique as trying to pick a fight. I was truly trying to compare and contrast living conditions at various degrees of Centralized Government Planning. I'd like less of it. Perhaps others want more of it. |
_________________
Imagecraft compiler user
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 17, 2012 - 01:50 AM |
|
Joined: Sep 20, 2003
Posts: 4061
Location: Surrey, England
|
|
Russia is maybe not the best example these days. I believe things are fairly ugly there since the fall of communism.
But then I've never been there, so I may be simply swallowing what the news reports feed me.
I'd probably like to see less Centralized Government Planning as well, but I do believe in some sort of safety net for those who would otherwise fall through the cracks of society. I think that carrying a few scroungers is a small price to pay for that, and I'm pretty certain that in the USA you don't really let poor people die in the streets if they have no medical insurance.
Anyway, rest assured that we are able to make certain decisions for ourselves over here. We are allowed, for example, to have an opened bottles of beer in an automobile, although we're not allowed to stow a handgun under the seat. We don't have to carry a litter bag in the car(as is the case in WA), but we have much stricter regulations for guarding of table saw blades. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 17, 2012 - 02:42 AM |
|
Joined: Aug 13, 2006
Posts: 6692
Location: Bellingham, WA - USA
|
|
|
Quote:
We don't have to carry a litter bag in the car(as is the case in WA)
We also have a law that says it's illegal to use a hand held cell phone while driving, but it's widely ignored. I don't have a litter bag, other than the floor of the car. |
_________________
Chuck Baird
"It's better to catch the trapeze than test the safety net" -- RPi book
http://www.cbaird.org
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 17, 2012 - 03:08 AM |
|
Joined: Apr 20, 2007
Posts: 6061
Location: Long Island New York
|
|
Mr. Brown wrote:
Quote:
Do the words "sub prime" mean anything to you?
Sure do to me.
Got lied to and I have been told the only cure to my SP variable interet rate is to stop payments and ruin my credit rating and hire a lawyer. I bought the house for $400k ten years ago, my payments go up 500 almost twice a year, and in the ten years I have $2000 paid towards principle. No equity as a result. The house has devalued 50%.
$400k is the purchase price, and after the 40year mortgage is paid up, I will have given the bank $1.4 million. |
_________________
Jim
I have decided that I am no longer going to plan anything in advance. In a court of law this is called Pre-Meditated, and does not look good for the defense.....
Timer function not working properly? Check CLKDIV8 Fuse first
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 17, 2012 - 03:16 AM |
|
Joined: Sep 04, 2002
Posts: 21248
Location: Orlando Florida
|
|
| This is a truly unique way of learning how the others live overseas. John B... I have spent a week or so in England several times... first time about 76, stayed in the Grosvenor Hotel on Picadilly Circle, took the express to Stevenage to learn how the BAE Rapier system worked so I could make them a simulator. Next time I stayed in Stevenage at the Cromwell Hotel which was 400 years old. One other time at the Garden Hotel in Welwyn Garden City. They had a 4 star continental service restaurant and after 2 weeks, we had had everything on the menu twice. Beef Wellington. Steak Dianne. Tournedos. Gained a couple of pounds. Me & Greg had a Cortina with no smog pumps like the US version and it would pull right up to the redline. We headed to Yeovil on the M4 to go to Westlands, checked out Stonehenge and the crop circles. Stayed in Torquay at the Rock Walk. Is that where Basil Fawlty lived? Saw Denvonshire Castle on the moors. It was all just like the Avengers and Emma Peel. Hedgerows and MGBs. Way Cool. Loved it. One time I stayed in a Covent Garden B&B and hung out at the Marquee Club on Wardor St trying to channel what it was like to see the Stones there in the 60s. Went to the Hammersmith Odeon. Saw Roy Orbison at the Albert Hall. Went to a club in Camden Lock in vogue at the time and had to really run to get the last train back to my hotel. I was in my 20s at the time. Time Out magazine had the schedule of every club and every band in the city. I cherish the English connection to my yank roots. This was the middle of the punk period, after the mods and rockers, but everyone was impeccably dressed on the high street. I bought an expensive leather jacket at Harrod's. Still have it. Can't wait to return. Thanks for asking. |
_________________
Imagecraft compiler user
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 17, 2012 - 04:36 AM |
|
Joined: Jan 09, 2007
Posts: 1849
Location: Arlington, Texas, U.S.A.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 17, 2012 - 08:47 AM |
|
Joined: Sep 20, 2003
Posts: 4061
Location: Surrey, England
|
|
|
gchapman wrote:
John_A_Brown wrote:
... but we have much stricter regulations for guarding of table saw blades.
People Who Are Destroying America - SawStop (Colbert Nation).
As an amateur woodworker, I have seen the Sawstop footage several times already. It's fascinating, but I generally cut timber on my table saw. I use a plain old kitchen knife for Frankfurters.
There is also the seat belt/airbag argument, i.e. the more safety devices you build into a thing the more risks the user will take.
Of course the makers of SawStop want the law changed, they are in business to make a profit(see posts above). I don't believe the EU regulators have the same motivation, although there might be some lobbying that goes on.
But I'm not sure that I understand what point you are making, do you think saw users need more state protection, or less?
Incidentally, an old colleague of mine visited Japan a long time ago, and, on seeing workers using totally unguarded machinery with no push-sticks, asked what would happen if they got their hands in the way. His Japanese host looked puzzled, "Why would they do that?" he asked.
[This is one of those stories that everyone has heard from friend who visited Japan, so it's probably not true].
P.S. I can't actually view the video you linked to, probably because I'm in the UK(I see a Canadian poster had the same problem). Maybe if I was able to view it I'd understand the point you make. Sorry about that. |
Last edited by John_A_Brown on Mar 17, 2012 - 10:33 AM; edited 1 time in total
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 17, 2012 - 09:12 AM |
|
Joined: Sep 20, 2003
Posts: 4061
Location: Surrey, England
|
|
|
bobgardner wrote:
This is a truly unique way of learning how the others live overseas. John B... I have spent a week or so in England several times... first time about 76, stayed in the Grosvenor Hotel on Picadilly Circle, took the express to Stevenage to learn how the BAE Rapier system worked so I could make them a simulator. Next time I stayed in Stevenage at the Cromwell Hotel which was 400 years old. One other time at the Garden Hotel in Welwyn Garden City. They had a 4 star continental service restaurant and after 2 weeks, we had had everything on the menu twice. Beef Wellington. Steak Dianne. Tournedos. Gained a couple of pounds. Me & Greg had a Cortina with no smog pumps like the US version and it would pull right up to the redline. We headed to Yeovil on the M4 to go to Westlands, checked out Stonehenge and the crop circles. Stayed in Torquay at the Rock Walk. Is that where Basil Fawlty lived? Saw Denvonshire Castle on the moors. It was all just like the Avengers and Emma Peel. Hedgerows and MGBs. Way Cool. Loved it. One time I stayed in a Covent Garden B&B and hung out at the Marquee Club on Wardor St trying to channel what it was like to see the Stones there in the 60s. Went to the Hammersmith Odeon. Saw Roy Orbison at the Albert Hall. Went to a club in Camden Lock in vogue at the time and had to really run to get the last train back to my hotel. I was in my 20s at the time. Time Out magazine had the schedule of every club and every band in the city. I cherish the English connection to my yank roots. This was the middle of the punk period, after the mods and rockers, but everyone was impeccably dressed on the high street. I bought an expensive leather jacket at Harrod's. Still have it. Can't wait to return. Thanks for asking.
Bob, I had you pegged as one of those Americans who'd never been outside their home state and thought London was just up the street from Bagdhad. Believed the Queen was in charge of the armed forces in Iraq - that sort of thing.
I was wrong. It turns out you are a hardened globe-trotter who could give Bill Bryson a run for his money.
I apologize.
However, when you visited England before, it wasn't a communist country. I can assure you that it still isn't.
I am not anti-American. Indeed, I may possibly retire there, if the economics of such a move remain as favourable as they are today. If I do, I will immediately remove all guarding from my power tools and chop a few digits off. Then stick two fingers up at the nannying EU. That'l learn 'em.
Basil Fawlty did indeed live in Torquay, or would have done if he were a real person.
Can't find any Devonshire Castle, BTW. Could it have been Compton Castle? |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 17, 2012 - 12:45 PM |
|
Joined: Sep 04, 2002
Posts: 21248
Location: Orlando Florida
|
|
| Okehampton according to your link below? |
_________________
Imagecraft compiler user
Last edited by bobgardner on Mar 17, 2012 - 01:30 PM; edited 1 time in total
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 17, 2012 - 01:27 PM |
|
Joined: Sep 20, 2003
Posts: 4061
Location: Surrey, England
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 17, 2012 - 06:20 PM |
|
Joined: Jan 09, 2007
Posts: 1849
Location: Arlington, Texas, U.S.A.
|
|
|
John_A_Brown wrote:
But I'm not sure that I understand what point you are making,...
None; my intent was humor injection (that fell flat; see last statement).
John_A_Brown wrote:
... do you think saw users need more state protection, or less?
No answer; I'm not in the co-creation chain where a table saw is used. But with my recall of a junior high school woodshop safety film, my answer is more especially for those under the age of majority.
John_A_Brown wrote:
P.S. I can't actually view the video you linked to, probably because I'm in the UK(I see a Canadian poster had the same problem). Maybe if I was able to view it I'd understand the point you make. Sorry about that.
I apologize for misleading you to content that may only be targetted to US residents. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 18, 2012 - 12:13 AM |
|
Joined: Dec 22, 2008
Posts: 359
Location: nr Bundaberg, Australia
|
|
In the outback (Australia) I'm used to paying $2+ a litre, so when I hit civilisation and pay "only" $1.50 I think all my Christmases have come at once.
As for excessive profits, I was well happy a few years ago when my investments were making 15-20% so I (and probably most of us) are partially to blame. Now I have everything in cash so I can start practising my Holier than thou speech
______
Rob |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 18, 2012 - 04:49 PM |
|
Joined: Nov 17, 2004
Posts: 13815
Location: Vancouver, BC
|
|
|
Quote:
I pointed out in my rebuttal to Jim that the govt taxes were more than the evil oil company profit
But taxes are not profit. Profit is the amount of income in surplus of the expenses. Since the U.S. is taking in $3 trillion and spending $4 trillion, you should be extremely happy that the government has such a large non-evil negative profit margin  |
_________________
Regards,
Steve A.
The Board helps those that help themselves.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 18, 2012 - 06:48 PM |
|
Joined: Sep 04, 2002
Posts: 21248
Location: Orlando Florida
|
|
| I went to Publix last week and came out with 6 bags of groceries in the cart. I opend my car door and grabbed the first bag, and a Black SUV screeched up and some Men In Black jumped out and grabbed three of my bags. I only had time to yell at them "Hey you guys! I didn't even have a chance to get them home!". Reminds me of my paycheck stub. They take what they want before I even get it home. |
_________________
Imagecraft compiler user
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 20, 2012 - 12:12 AM |
|
Joined: Mar 27, 2006
Posts: 244
Location: Vancouver, BC
|
|
In Vancouver, BC I am currently paying $1.43 US/liter. I regularly go over the border into Washington to fill up which saves me about $15 per tank including the 20 minute drive.
American's also have it better for beer/wine prices. In BC we have a liquor tax which adds about $4 to a bottle of wine. I can get a bottle for $2.99 in Bellingham, but the same bottle would cost $7 here. It might be time to try making some moonshine as it's only illegal to sell it here  |
_________________
-Christan
Summer Student, Chief Tinkerer
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 20, 2012 - 12:29 AM |
|
Joined: Aug 13, 2006
Posts: 6692
Location: Bellingham, WA - USA
|
|
The Canadians also come down to buy milk. My question to Steve (mentioned above) was because every time we go to Costco there are several Canadians carting off anywhere from 10 to 20 gallons of milk each. I assume many are also buying for their friends, but still, that's a lot of milk unless you want to take a bath or hose down your driveway with it.
And I'm the only guy who's crossed the border the other way and filled up with gas. It was years ago after we first moved here and I didn't know the liter/gallon conversion factor or currency exchange rate and I just filled up without thinking about it. Until later, which was quite embarrassing. |
_________________
Chuck Baird
"It's better to catch the trapeze than test the safety net" -- RPi book
http://www.cbaird.org
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 20, 2012 - 12:39 AM |
|
Joined: Mar 27, 2006
Posts: 244
Location: Vancouver, BC
|
|
|
zbaird wrote:
The Canadians also come down to buy milk. My question to Steve (mentioned above) was because every time we go to Costco there are several Canadians carting off anywhere from 10 to 20 gallons of milk each. I assume many are also buying for their friends, but still, that's a lot of milk unless you want to take a bath or hose down your driveway with it.
And I'm the only guy who's crossed the border the other way and filled up with gas. It was years ago after we first moved here and I didn't know the liter/gallon conversion factor or currency exchange rate and I just filled up without thinking about it. Until later, which was quite embarrassing.
Ah yes, I forgot to mention that my wife and I always frequent the Fred Meyer in Bellingham to pick up dairy. Dairy items in the USA are about half price than north of the Border. I pay about $4.80 for 4 litres of milk where I think it's somewhere in the $2 range there. Also a bag of shredded cheese worth about $8 here is about $4-$5 there. Dairy is where we notice the biggest savings. I do sometimes carry a case of beer home and depending on the mood of the border guard, I won't have to pay tax on it.
On another note it seems that the American border guards hate me because they usually grill me pretty good on the way down. But I guess the same probably happens to you guys going the other way too. I remember going into Montana a month ago from the Alberta border and I didn't come to a complete stop at the stop sign before the lane (since the lane was empty). I don't think I'll ever do that again because I was belittled and felt pretty helpless and small after the guard proceeded to tell me how small my IQ was I always take it with a grain of salt though. I'm sure they have a tough job. |
_________________
-Christan
Summer Student, Chief Tinkerer
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 20, 2012 - 05:51 AM |
|
Joined: Dec 22, 2008
Posts: 359
Location: nr Bundaberg, Australia
|
|
Jeez Bob, groceries must be expensive in the 'States to warrant a grab like that
______
Rob |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 20, 2012 - 10:44 AM |
|
Joined: Jul 02, 2005
Posts: 5918
Location: Melbourne, Australia
|
|
| Here in Melbourne, unleaded petrol jumped from $1.41 to $1.589 today. I have an appointment with the banking loans officer tomorrow so I can fill up. |
_________________
Ross McKenzie
ValuSoft
Melbourne Australia
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 20, 2012 - 04:17 PM |
|
Joined: Nov 11, 2003
Posts: 3841
Location: Chicago Illinois USA
|
|
| Not sure I've ever seen them jumping so fast here. |
_________________
Discursive design,
Torby
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 20, 2012 - 04:55 PM |
|
Joined: May 26, 2004
Posts: 2538
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
|
|
| A month ago it was going up more than ten cents a day, but that's per gallon not per liter. Ross' increase would translate to about a 60 cent/gallon rise. That is about what we saw here, but in increments of 10 cents a day. I'd see one price on the way to work, a higher one at lunchtime and another even higher in the evening. Ross' station obviously didn't mark up the stock in the tanks they way they do here, so the increase hit all at once at the next delivery. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 21, 2012 - 12:40 AM |
|
Joined: Sep 04, 2002
Posts: 21248
Location: Orlando Florida
|
|
| The New President can roll back the 18 cent per gallon federal onerous tax some if he wants to rack up massive brownie points with his peeps. |
_________________
Imagecraft compiler user
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 23, 2012 - 01:03 AM |
|
Joined: Jul 10, 2006
Posts: 2654
Location: Minneapolis
|
|
It's going around the internets that there is no correlation between US crude oil production and domestic gasoline prices. I can picture all the roads and all the railways to Washington are bumper to bumper carrying industrial strength glossy red. This pig needs a whole lot of lipstick.
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStor ... e-15967622 |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mar 23, 2012 - 01:32 AM |
|
Joined: Mar 27, 2002
Posts: 850
Location: Athens, Hellas
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Apr 02, 2012 - 03:45 PM |
|
Joined: Dec 22, 2005
Posts: 1261
Location: shiraz , iran
|
|
0.5USD for 1 litter of benzene
Location Iran |
_________________
I love Digital
and you who involved in it!
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Register
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Maximize
RSS
