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bobgardner
PostPosted: Feb 19, 2012 - 10:21 PM
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Anyone been following Andrea Rossi's E-CAT progress? He has some hydrogen and some nickel powder and a 'secret catalyst' and he heats it up with a KW or so, and after an hour, he unplugs it and it keeps putting out a couple KW for a couple hours. The traditional physicists all think its snake oil because they cant figure it out, but A Dr Zawodny at NASA thinks its something. It sure would shake up the balance of cash flow from North America to North Africa. Note that this message has hints of science, physics, economics, but hopefully, no politics.

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zbaird
PostPosted: Feb 19, 2012 - 11:37 PM
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Quote:
The traditional physicists all think its snake oil because they cant figure it out

The history of science is strewn with examples of arrogance finally having to give way to paradigm shifting breakthroughs. Not to say that by far most snake oil isn't just... snake oil.

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bobgardner
PostPosted: Feb 19, 2012 - 11:45 PM
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One guy that observed the demo said it was putting out 2.5KW for an hour after they shut off the input, and no one could figure out how to get that amount of power using a chemical reaction. There was an amp clamp on the hot wire from the ac plug, but the skeptic said they were bootlegging in the extra watts up the third wire ground. After it runs for a while, they find copper mixed in with the nickel. Like the hydrogen nucleus jumped into the nickel nucleus and made some copper and releaed a bunch of heat. I understand ohms law, but this seems a lot farther out than that. Transmuting metals. Lead into Gold. Alchemy. Philosopher's Stone.

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js
PostPosted: Feb 20, 2012 - 12:06 AM
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Wouldn't trust Italians myself....

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zbaird
PostPosted: Feb 20, 2012 - 12:13 AM
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Quote:
Wouldn't trust Italians myself....

Not unless it's something you eat. They're pretty good at that.

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bobgardner
PostPosted: Feb 20, 2012 - 12:28 AM
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Well, if it puts out 6 times as much as you put in, it should help you reduce your cooking expense, heating expense, water heating expense.

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gchapman
PostPosted: Feb 20, 2012 - 03:34 AM
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Think larger.
http://www.teslasociety.com/biography.htm, Wardenclyffe tower.
 
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microcarl
PostPosted: Feb 20, 2012 - 04:19 AM
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js wrote:
Wouldn't trust Italians myself....


Now, John, you are Italian and you are trustworthy! Laughing

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JohanEkdahl
PostPosted: Feb 20, 2012 - 06:01 AM
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This is regularly reported about in the specialist tabloid for Swedish Engineers.

The scientific problem here is that "secret catalyst". A proper science report describes in detail how the experiment was done, to the point where other scientists can repeat the experiment and verify the results.

So, going meta-meta and use a physics analogy on this physics problem: Until they open that box for all to see we can not tell if the cat is alive or dead (i.e. it is snake oil or not). (Yes, I know I am abusing the original analogy...)
 
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LDEVRIES
PostPosted: Feb 20, 2012 - 06:34 AM
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OK Bob, I will declare myself as a skeptic! However I just want to clear a couple of issues. In your first post you say
Quote:
He has some hydrogen

100mL, 1L, 100L,10KL ???
Quote:
and he heats it up with a KW or so,

You don't say for how long and the "or so" could be 3 or 4 or even 10 KW for an hour Ie. 10KWH
We need KWH IN & KWH out!

Quote:
Well, if it puts out 6 times as much as you put in, it should help you reduce your cooking expense, heating expense, water heating expense.

Where did the figure of 6 times come from.

Quote:
keeps putting out a couple KW

Radiated heat or electrical energy? DC or AC?

Assuming it is an exothermic reaction of the chemicals, more energy needed to have gone into the reaction then comes out.
Any thermite will produce lots & lots of heat!

Quote:
It sure would shake up the balance of cash flow from North America to North Africa.

Does the US get it's majority of oil from Libya?

You are right the "material under discussion" would seem suitable, but I could be accused of turning a 12 yo into a skeptic and destroy their creative/inquiring mind.

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Last edited by LDEVRIES on Feb 20, 2012 - 06:46 AM; edited 1 time in total
 
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jan_dc
PostPosted: Feb 20, 2012 - 06:39 AM
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It exists for quite some time now. So I have one simple question: why is not commercially available?

And please do not be too naive when you try to answer this question.
 
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JohanEkdahl
PostPosted: Feb 20, 2012 - 07:35 AM
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Quote:
It exists for quite some time now.

It might, or it might not. As I noted above, there has been no independent proof of the results. AFAIK it is only Andrea Rossi's word so far.
Quote:
And please do not be too naive when you try to answer this question.

I would say that believing w/o any substantial proof is naive.

More here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Catalyzer
 
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LDEVRIES
PostPosted: Feb 20, 2012 - 07:38 AM
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I thought after my initial missive, I thought I better Google Andrea Rossi's E-CAT. Well, my suspicions were pretty well confirmed I believe, he is just a flim-flam man!
I note that a well respected businessman in Australia, fas wagered him a $1,000,000 to demonstrate a working model, which Rossi cleverly declined!

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js
PostPosted: Feb 20, 2012 - 07:50 AM
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I have heard from someone else that some Australians are also working on the same thing.

Of course anyone having some knowledge of this may just disappear into thin air so we all better play safe and claim "ve know nuthing, nuthing,nuthing!".

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mnehpets
PostPosted: Feb 20, 2012 - 10:42 AM
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This is a good time to review the cold fusion claims from Stanley Pons and Martin Fleischmann. Here's a relatively neutral article from a couple of years ago:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7959183.stm

The history of Rossi's claim seems to be following a similar path. Have we learned nothing in 20 years?

js wrote:

I have heard from someone else that some Australians are also working on the same thing.


Was it from some dude called "Aussie Guy E-Cat"? He claims to have replicated Pons & Fleischmann, which makes me very suspicious.

- S
 
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Torby
PostPosted: Feb 20, 2012 - 03:11 PM
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Yup! We've learned that we don't learn anything from experience.

Also, history is full of valid claims being thought flim-flam, and the other way 'round.

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LDEVRIES
PostPosted: Feb 20, 2012 - 09:12 PM
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On one video, Rossi shows some steam coming out of a rubber hose that he says is produced by "the reaction". It did require about 740 watts of heat to produce it though. My electric jug will produce more steam than that, without any of the hocus- pocus.
Of course if his system produced energy than you put in , it should be a self-sustaining reaction, which he says can't be done because of stability issues. Snake oil!

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abcminiuser
PostPosted: Feb 20, 2012 - 09:53 PM
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Absolutely - time and time again, all these "magic" energy sources always require some sort of external power to work, be it a battery, mains power or something else. If something really is putting out more energy than you put in, you should be able to power it from itself.

While I do believe we have yet to unlock some secrets of the universe, I doubt some guys "secret magic sauce" will be it. This is the Steorn Orbo all over again.

- Dean Twisted Evil

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peret
PostPosted: Feb 20, 2012 - 09:57 PM
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It's routine to get kilowatt-hours of power out of chemical reactions. We generally call such reactors "batteries" or "furnaces". If the experimenter puts "a kW or so" into the mass for an hour, and it doesn't liquify and burn through the floor, there must be a substantial quantity of nickel available to react. One must offset one's expectations of reduced cooking and heating costs against the cost of substantial quantities of pure nickel, which is undoubtedly consumed in the reaction. As for the copper, Occam's Razor suggests that contamination or sloppy experimental procedures are more likely than nuclear transmutation.
 
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westfw
PostPosted: Feb 21, 2012 - 01:45 AM
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Quote:
why is not commercially available?

or if you believe in massive conspiracies, why hasn't the Italian government stolen the secret sauce and used it to solve their country's finance problems?

Quote:
some Australians are also working on the same thing.

Scamming people? No doubt!
 
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Koshchi
PostPosted: Feb 21, 2012 - 03:20 AM
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Quote:
While I do believe we have yet to unlock some secrets of the universe, I doubt some guys "secret magic sauce" will be it.
I thought that Burger King had a corner on the market for secret sauces anyways (or was that McDonald's?).

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mnehpets
PostPosted: Feb 21, 2012 - 01:39 PM
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peret wrote:
As for the copper, Occam's Razor suggests that contamination or sloppy experimental procedures are more likely than nuclear transmutation.


We can make a stronger statement on the copper. Nuclear reactions produce copper isotopes in very precise ratios. There are reports an independent team tested samples of the copper output, and instead of getting an isotope ratio characteristic of a nuclear reaction, they got a ratio that matches naturally occurring copper.

- S
 
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EW
PostPosted: Feb 21, 2012 - 02:42 PM
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That would definitely be a strong indicator...

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bobgardner
PostPosted: Feb 21, 2012 - 06:36 PM
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Is this a great forum or what? Not just mere world class electrical engineers and programmers, but aerodynamicists and physicists too. I've been reading about this on the sci.energy newsgroups, which are much coarser than our sweet little forum here, and the guys that think its snake oil still really want it to work. It would probably be a bigger invention than steam or oil.

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zbaird
PostPosted: Feb 21, 2012 - 06:41 PM
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It would certainly be a huge invention, but if wishes were reality Keira would live in an outbuilding in Finchingfield.

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theusch
PostPosted: Feb 21, 2012 - 07:25 PM
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Quote:

I thought that Burger King had a corner on the market for secret sauces anyways (or was that McDonald's?).


Nah--Wisconsin, USA--Go, Brewers!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_Stadium_Sauce

But indeed, you might be thinking of Big mac "special sauce"...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Mac

Quote:
"Two all-beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions - all on a sesame seed bun."

Quote:
Big MacĀ® Sauce:
Soybean oil, pickle relish [diced pickles, high fructose corn syrup, sugar, vinegar, corn syrup, salt, calcium chloride, xanthan gum, potassium sorbate (preservative),
spice extractives, polysorbate 80], distilled vinegar, water, egg yolks, high fructose corn syrup, onion powder, mustard seed, salt, spices, propylene glycol alginate,
sodium benzoate (preservative), mustard bran, sugar, garlic powder, vegetable protein (hydrolyzed corn, soy and wheat), caramel color, extractives of paprika, soy
lecithin, turmeric (color), calcium disodium EDTA (protect flavor).


Back on topic, the Italians have issued a patent on this thingy. Now, I'm way out of my league here but I thought a patent application had to have enough information for one knowledgeable in the subject area to create/re-create the device.
 
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bobgardner
PostPosted: Feb 21, 2012 - 08:05 PM
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There's a bunch of dudes on the newsgroups trying to replicate an ecat too. I would also personally pay a nominal admission price to view Kiera Knightley nightly in her nightie.

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EW
PostPosted: Feb 21, 2012 - 08:53 PM
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theusch wrote:

Back on topic, the Italians have issued a patent on this thingy. Now, I'm way out of my league here but I thought a patent application had to have enough information for one knowledgeable in the subject area to create/re-create the device.


Anyone have a link to the patent in Italy?
 
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LDEVRIES
PostPosted: Feb 21, 2012 - 09:31 PM
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crazy patents that never made it
The first two paragraphs say it all.

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bobgardner
PostPosted: Feb 21, 2012 - 10:07 PM
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Assuming that these things are going to be as common as water heaters pretty soon, maybe Atmel can make an E-Cat controller with an AVR core and whatever IO it takes to turn the H2 valve open and closed etc. Get in on the ground floor and ride it up.

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zbaird
PostPosted: Feb 21, 2012 - 10:27 PM
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Quote:
maybe Atmel can make an E-Cat controller

They could build it around the DB101. There must be a pile of those lying around somewhere. There may also be some guys hanging around on the ground floor waiting to ride them up.

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EW
PostPosted: Feb 21, 2012 - 11:14 PM
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Laughing

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mnehpets
PostPosted: Feb 21, 2012 - 11:24 PM
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Quote:

Anyone have a link to the patent in Italy?


WIPO patent application 2009125444:

http://www.wipo.int/patentscope/search/en/WO2009125444

The corresponding application at the US PTO is 20110005506:

http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Par ... 0110005506

- S
 
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theusch
PostPosted: Feb 21, 2012 - 11:55 PM
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Quote:

They could build it around the DB101. There must be a pile of those lying around somewhere.

??? http://store.atmel.com/PartDetail.aspx?q=p:10500052 "Out of stock"
 
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Torby
PostPosted: Feb 22, 2012 - 03:40 PM
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Imagine having wrote a piece of code for that airline seal lethal injection system.

"Oh crap, did I forget to..."

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