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 Posted: Jan 25, 2012 - 03:35 AM |
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Joined: Dec 11, 2007
Posts: 6843
Location: Cleveland, OH
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Quote:
My point is: I ask a straight question and I simply want a straight answer to that. Ask for details on what I want to achieve is ok to me. But there is a big difference between asking me for information and telling me that I'm doing things in way it is normally not done.
I tend to think that sometimes there is no simple answer.
Often it becomes an issue of how detailed an answer one wants.
It is tough sometimes to know how much info is desired.
I told one poster recently that putting the reverse polarity protection diode on the ground lead connected to his battery isn't the normal method, it is usually placed in the positive lead. I told him it would certainly work where he had it, but it would attract attention as it wasn't the usual approach. I mentioned there are times one wants to "surpress the ground rail", below the Vsupply negative, but his application wasn't one of those.
Tough call, I think. If the OP eventually wants to get a job in electronics one ought to know the usual practices, and then learn when to deviate from them and why.
JC |
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Posted: Jan 25, 2012 - 05:24 PM |
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Joined: Nov 22, 2002
Posts: 12036
Location: Tangent, OR, USA
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DocJC's point is important. And, it outlines one of the challenges of this message board. We have a huge variety of posters from a huge variety of backgrounds and knowledge levels. There are, however, several pretty distinct groups:
1) Students, often with absolutely no practical experience
2) Hobby folks, often, but not always, self-taught
3) Technical folks, often with diverse backgrounds such as physics, mechanical or electrical engineering, and such, but with little embedded experience.
4) Experienced embedded programmers who are encountering AVRs for the first time
5) Folks with programming experience, but often not with microcontrollers.
6) Experienced AVR folks
The challenge is how how to convey "best practices" which may (maybe often?) clash with what the poster already "knows" or thinks they want to do. Often, there is a board already laid out and, for cost and time, the poster does not want to change.
In my experience, the students are often in most dire need of best practices information because they may not, yet, even understand, their importance. The technical folks understand, but often simply don't yet know. The hobby folks, by and large, simply don't care. And, there will always be a few posters, in all categories, who reject the whole idea of best practices as being a tool of conformity and such.
So, this can be a bit of a mine field. It has the potential for becoming rancorous, particularly since there is often no unanimity on what some of the "best practices" are or why they are important.
I guess the best we can do it to try to be aware of who the poster is (sometimes sifting through clues to divine this fact) and to be clear when an explanation is offered. It is probably important to distinguish between what will or won't work vs what is a good or not such a good idea.
Among the most challenging are the posts that involve personal safety. The most frequent such postings seem to involve direct power line connections. For these sorts of things, it is really important to convey a sense of the hazard without painting the poster as being "dumb", "stupid", etc. For those of us with personal experience (sometimes involving our own execution of the stupid idea being posed), it really is important to describe just WHY the idea is hazardous.
The most important principle, however, is probably what this thread has been discussing. If you can't contribute something that resolves the question posed, then don't. Calling someone stupid for proposing something hazardous does not help the OP to understand why it is hazardous or what to do about it. Instead, convey some information so that the OP learns about the problem (and solution) rather than attacking the poster.
Jim |
_________________
Jim Wagner
Oregon Research Electronics, Consulting Div.
Tangent, OR, USA
"The only thing standing between us and victory is defeat" P.G.Wodhouse in Wooster & Jeeves series
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Posted: Jan 25, 2012 - 05:57 PM |
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Joined: Nov 17, 2004
Posts: 6137
Location: Great Smokey Mountains.
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clawson wrote:
This thread has been split from another discussing Wireless Modules.
As noted below the operators of Freaks are conscious that it has got a reputation for being very "hostile" to beginners and this may be putting beginners off getting involved with AVR micros.
To try and combat that the moderators intend to be more proactive in deleting posts that do not help the original poster, especially those that are simply insulting.
Remember:
If a reply won't actually help then don't make it.
The discussion about that continues below...
I think this is confusing people. Isn't the point that we shouldn't insult folks - not that we have to carefully parse the query to make certain that we are being helpful?
The guy that says he doesn't like it when people try to help him in ways that he doesn't want to be helped just further confuses the issue. Isn't the point that any honest attempt at help that doesn't include insults is okay?
So if you are honestly trying to help and the person flames you for not providing the kind of help they asked for, shouldn't you just assume that this person is a #&^#*&* and walk away with out further comment?
IN SUMMARY - isn't the point that we stop flaming and that the point is not that we provide help that 'really will help' in some &&^%$# opinion?
Cliff, maybe you clarify that this is not about giving 'bad' help, but is about being insulting.
Smiley |
_________________
FREE TUTORIAL: 'Quick Start Guide for Using the WinAVR C Compiler with ATMEL's AVR Butterfly' AVAILABLE AT: http://www.smileymicros.com
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Posted: Jan 25, 2012 - 07:25 PM |
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Joined: Nov 22, 2002
Posts: 12036
Location: Tangent, OR, USA
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I think that Smiley is right on, here.....
Jim |
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Jim Wagner
Oregon Research Electronics, Consulting Div.
Tangent, OR, USA
"The only thing standing between us and victory is defeat" P.G.Wodhouse in Wooster & Jeeves series
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Posted: Jan 25, 2012 - 08:15 PM |
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Joined: Aug 13, 2006
Posts: 6696
Location: Bellingham, WA - USA
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Quote:
The strange thing is that since I mentioned this in public I haven't seen ANYTHING that might be construed as "insulting".
Perhaps have a look at the Obama thread in OT. It gets a little down, dirty, and personal at times, although not toward the newbies. Just the usual quarterly mudslinging, which perhaps serves a useful pressure relieving service so we all can hide behind the veneer of civilization elsewhere. |
_________________
Chuck Baird
"It's better to catch the trapeze than test the safety net" -- RPi book
http://www.cbaird.org
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Posted: Jan 25, 2012 - 08:30 PM |
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Joined: Mar 27, 2002
Posts: 18535
Location: Lund, Sweden
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Quote:
I know many folks have an objection to ANY form of censorship so it's only an action of last resort.
I understand your reasoning about "last resort". It is much nicer if there is an general and common understanding of what is a nice attitude etc..
For those protesting censorship: AVRfreaks is no more a place where you freely can post anything you wish than an ordinary newspaper is. Freedom of press belongs to those who own one. Atmel owns this press. Anyone disliking censorship executed by Atmel can go start their own forum and not moderate it.
What I do dislike is if partial censorship or editing is executed. People should be responsible for what they write in full or not at all, so to say. Purely "technical/layout" editing is no problem at all (e.g. adding CODE tags). Editing out individual "strong words" is a border case - and what constitutes a strong word is differs with culture, language, age and whatnot. |
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Posted: Jan 25, 2012 - 09:31 PM |
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Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 62241
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
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Quote:
I think this is confusing people. Isn't the point that we shouldn't insult folks - not that we have to carefully parse the query to make certain that we are being helpful?
Sorry but I don't see that. You know yourself if you are being helpful or downright obnoxious. Continue with one, desist from doing the other. Surely it's as simple as that?
Or can you quote an example of the point you are trying to make? That is a question followed by an unhelpful answer that should still be made anyway?
I'll start:
Q: I'm trying to make a solar tracker, where do I start?
OK answers:
A: Have you tried Google?
A: Read this "Newbie start here" thread.
A: Read this "How to ask a question sensibly thread"
A: I've been making solar trackers for the last 30 years, what can I tell you?
Not OK answers:
A: Don't be so needy
A: Read the FUCKING manual
A: Try this LMGTFY link (OK, the jury is still out on this  )
A: Send me $9995 and I'll do it for you
A: Microchip do a nice PIC for solar tracker work
etc, |
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Posted: Jan 25, 2012 - 09:37 PM |
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Joined: Mar 28, 2001
Posts: 20339
Location: Sydney, Australia (Gum trees, Koalas and Kangaroos, No Edelweiss)
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| Watch your words Cliff I may have to censure your posts..... |
_________________
John Samperi
Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.
www.ampertronics.com.au
* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly
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Posted: Jan 25, 2012 - 09:48 PM |
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Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 62241
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
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BTW after starting this I thought I was never going to get to put theory into practice but I just had my first opportunity to remove a completely pointless post.
(let's all guess who couldn't help themselves ) |
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Posted: Jan 25, 2012 - 09:55 PM |
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Joined: Aug 13, 2006
Posts: 6696
Location: Bellingham, WA - USA
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Quote:
let's all guess who couldn't help themselves
Sorry. I can't do any better than 50/50 between two. |
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Chuck Baird
"It's better to catch the trapeze than test the safety net" -- RPi book
http://www.cbaird.org
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Posted: Jan 25, 2012 - 09:55 PM |
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Joined: Nov 17, 2004
Posts: 6137
Location: Great Smokey Mountains.
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clawson wrote:
Quote:
I think this is confusing people. Isn't the point that we shouldn't insult folks - not that we have to carefully parse the query to make certain that we are being helpful?
Sorry but I don't see that. You know yourself if you are being helpful or downright obnoxious. Continue with one, desist from doing the other. Surely it's as simple as that?
Apparently not.
Didn't you read the post above by the guy who gets miffed if folks don't provide the kind of help he wants rather than, as ka7ehk says, the kind of help he needs?
All I was saying is that as long as we aren't being insulting, then we shouldn't worry about whether the OP thinks it is helpful or not. If he is proposing something silly when there are lots of well known good solutions and I point out the better ways - then I am being helpful. If he comes back as the guy above suggested that I'm not being helpful because he wants to do it his way - then I just walk off.
Is this clear yet?
Smiley |
_________________
FREE TUTORIAL: 'Quick Start Guide for Using the WinAVR C Compiler with ATMEL's AVR Butterfly' AVAILABLE AT: http://www.smileymicros.com
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Posted: Jan 25, 2012 - 10:00 PM |
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Joined: Aug 13, 2006
Posts: 6696
Location: Bellingham, WA - USA
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| I'd point out that it's not just the OP that is getting the help. Maybe he/she has, for whatever reason, set some initial specifications in concrete. It doesn't mean that other suggestions and/or questioning the a priori use of concrete won't be of benefit to someone else. |
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Chuck Baird
"It's better to catch the trapeze than test the safety net" -- RPi book
http://www.cbaird.org
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Posted: Jan 26, 2012 - 04:55 AM |
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Joined: Dec 11, 2007
Posts: 6843
Location: Cleveland, OH
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HEY! Where the H... did my last post go! WTF?
JC |
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Posted: Jan 26, 2012 - 04:59 AM |
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Joined: Aug 13, 2006
Posts: 6696
Location: Bellingham, WA - USA
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| Black helicopters. |
_________________
Chuck Baird
"It's better to catch the trapeze than test the safety net" -- RPi book
http://www.cbaird.org
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Posted: Jan 26, 2012 - 05:16 AM |
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Joined: Dec 11, 2007
Posts: 6843
Location: Cleveland, OH
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Quote:
Black helicopters.
Now I get the joke, but your reference also demonstrates a bit of clairvoyance.
I was in Arizona a week or two ago playing with "Black Helicopters".
No, that isn't me repelling from the Black Hawk with a K9.
JC |
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Posted: Jan 26, 2012 - 09:30 AM |
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Joined: Jul 02, 2005
Posts: 5934
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| My reply will help Doc land safely. |
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Ross McKenzie
ValuSoft
Melbourne Australia
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Posted: Jan 26, 2012 - 09:52 AM |
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Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 62241
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
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Quote:
Didn't you read the post above by the guy who gets miffed if folks don't provide the kind of help he wants rather than, as ka7ehk says, the kind of help he needs?
I was ignoring that - to me (only IMAO of course!) any answer that provides information not insult is "helpful". We cannot know the OPs mind and anything we think of as a "good idea" may potentially be helpful. I guess if OP specifically says "I don't want to hear about XXX" then replies talking about XXX probably won't be helpful. But they are just "noise", not insults and won't be deleted unless OP specifically asks or is offended by them. |
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Posted: Jan 26, 2012 - 02:44 PM |
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Joined: Nov 17, 2004
Posts: 6137
Location: Great Smokey Mountains.
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clawson wrote:
I was ignoring that -
Best tactic yet.
Smiley |
_________________
FREE TUTORIAL: 'Quick Start Guide for Using the WinAVR C Compiler with ATMEL's AVR Butterfly' AVAILABLE AT: http://www.smileymicros.com
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Posted: Jan 26, 2012 - 03:36 PM |
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Joined: Apr 16, 2001
Posts: 3522
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
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| Darn black helicopters always flying over the house.... |
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Posted: Jan 27, 2012 - 04:09 AM |
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Joined: Jan 06, 2011
Posts: 66
Location: Orlando, FL
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Hey Guys,
If you don't mind too much I would like to chime in from a users perspective.
First off, all you guys are extreemly helpful to me. This board is an awesome source of information for the Atmel micros. Actually its THE source in my opinion.
That said, sometimes the replies can get a little terse. I think its usually when the questions are not thought through and folks appear to be trying to get you guys to do their work for them. I think one thing to keep in mind that electronic communication is not easily interpreted and the meaning a lot of the time is lost. So sometimes it could just be a misunderstanding. Also folks from all over the world use this board and sometimes english is not their native language. I will admit sometimes there are folks that will miss use this resource and those folks can be dealt with politely.
You guys are extreemly talented and obtain a vast collection of knowledge in this area of technology. It can be intimidating to a person if they are just starting out to try to ask a question if they fear they will get read the riot act if they ask the wrong one or ask it the wrong way. From what I can tell I believe the request is to be a bit more Nub friendly and patient with folks who just simply don't know any better.
As for me, I extend my sincerest appreciation for all of you!
Ed |
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