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 Posted: Jan 23, 2012 - 09:44 AM |
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Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 62299
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
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Quote:
And, Lee, I'd bet money that you've never said a thing that would get you censored.
Agree 100%. There is a certain group of middle aged men here (myself included) who are "grumpy" but that's different to being openly insulting in such a way that an OP is scared off from ever using Freaks again. We're talking about replies that have no attempt to provide useful/technical info but are simply made to belittle the OP. |
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Posted: Jan 23, 2012 - 10:24 AM |
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Joined: Nov 29, 2007
Posts: 3219
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clawson wrote:
The evidence suggests that nothing about this forum is going to change in the short term.
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If we all stop answering then Atmel will start saying
No one is suggesting anyone stops ANSWERING.
Then let me be "anyone" and exactly suggest that.
Yes, I know, as someone working hard to move away from Atmel I have no right to post here, but hey, I am not the one publishing that avrfreaks is a sewer.
Atmel is commanding out of the blue that things must change, but they are still not willing to put in their fair share of work. Atmel is paying for the show here, but neglected avrfreaks for years. I argue that with neglecting avrfreaks they have partly fortified their moral right to dictate what people here must and must not do. Especially if people do it for free.
Therefor I seriously suggest to go on strike to get Atmel's attention, instead of just lip service. Imagine that for one month the only answer you get here would be "Please contact your FAE or support@atmel.com".
One month of no longer the same old. |
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Stealing Proteus doesn't make you an engineer.
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Posted: Jan 23, 2012 - 10:28 AM |
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Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 62299
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
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Quote:
Therefore I seriously suggest to go on strike to get Atmel's attention
Personally I can see no reason to do that - I don't know about anyone else but I do this for fun (and no pay!). Why would I stop doing something I see as being fun? |
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Posted: Jan 23, 2012 - 10:43 AM |
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Joined: Nov 29, 2007
Posts: 3219
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clawson wrote:
Why would I stop doing something I see as being fun?
To facilitate change. |
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Stealing Proteus doesn't make you an engineer.
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Posted: Jan 23, 2012 - 10:52 AM |
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Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 62299
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
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Quote:
To facilitate change.
Why change it? It's fine as it is. |
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Posted: Jan 23, 2012 - 10:57 AM |
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Joined: Nov 29, 2007
Posts: 3219
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clawson wrote:
Quote:
To facilitate change.
Why change it? It's fine as it is.
Then why this thread? |
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Stealing Proteus doesn't make you an engineer.
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Posted: Jan 23, 2012 - 11:01 AM |
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Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 62299
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
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Quote:
Then why this thread?
I thought I'd explained that earlier on in this thread. Or are you suggesting that by the rest of us striking it will someone persuade the ignorant ass-holes, who insult beginners, to stop doing it? I'm afraid I cannot see the connection. Why would those tossers care what anyone else here does? They are only interested in polishing their egos and are otherwise unthinkably selfish. |
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Posted: Jan 23, 2012 - 12:01 PM |
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Joined: May 02, 2007
Posts: 3016
Location: Nieuwegein, Netherlands
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NO offence to anybody reading this:
I have a feeling that Arnold wants to say that Atmel says the forum has to change, but on the other hand is neglecting it and totally is not listening to things we say here. No improvements, no bug fixes, it seems that they do not even listen when we test their new software, like the tool chain and AS5. but then again this forum has to 'behave' better.
And indeed I also think that we keep a lot of people away from support@ and avr@. specially the people that come here trying to get their school project finished within the last hour and expecting us to write all their code because they had other things to do. I also find it is strange that this forum is a very helpfull tool to atmel, but that do not spend any time or recource on keeping it in shape or to at least take our remarks/comments/suggestions serious. Dean and EW are here also only for 'fun' and not because it is part of their job.
On the other hand I do agree with Cliff that we perhaps should just simply send those people to the tutorials forum and to the newbie start here thread.
so Arnolds wants change in the sence that Atmel themselves should perhaps show more involvement with this forum. And Cliff does not want the forum itself to change. |
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1)Datasheet and application notes checked?
2)tutorial forum
3)Newbie start here
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Posted: Jan 23, 2012 - 12:08 PM |
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Joined: Mar 27, 2002
Posts: 18561
Location: Lund, Sweden
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Quote:
Why change it? It's fine as it is.
We need an exorcist here, on the double! Cliff has been occupied by an evil spirit. Nest thing, he'll say that AS5 is a flawless piece of outsstanding design and engineering.
[Cliff, perhaps use you alter ego, and tell us that deep in there you are still sane?]
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Posted: Jan 23, 2012 - 12:21 PM |
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Joined: May 02, 2007
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Location: Nieuwegein, Netherlands
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Quote:
he'll say that AS5 is a flawless piece of outsstanding design and engineering.
Is that not the case then?????
I'm not saying that it actually works...... 
but the looks are good and that is what it seems to be doing these days..... |
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1)Datasheet and application notes checked?
2)tutorial forum
3)Newbie start here
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Posted: Jan 23, 2012 - 12:26 PM |
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Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 62299
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
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Can we keep this thread on topic please. The *ONLY* issue that the moderators are trying to change is whether beginners are scared off or not. I fail to see how a "strike" expedites that goal but perhaps someone could explain that to me.
If you want to start a thread about "general improvements I'd like to see at Freaks and how to achieve it" then feel free to do that in your own thread in Off Topic or avrfreaks.net.
This thread is ONLY about measures to stop beginners being insulted and scared off. Sorry if that was not clear. |
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Posted: Jan 23, 2012 - 12:44 PM |
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Joined: May 02, 2007
Posts: 3016
Location: Nieuwegein, Netherlands
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CLiff,
please relax,
I think that You and Arnold are trying to get seperate things done.
Arnolds side: Atmel wants the forum to change, but is not willing to put some of their own effort in it. So he wants to strike and thus get support@ and avr@ busy by telling every newbie here that they should contact them instead of asking their questions here.
The other side is the request from atmel to be a bit more polite on the forum, and that could mean that we just simply direct the newbies to the tutorials and the newbie start here thread.
I think everybody is here for 'fun' and want to help others in having fun with AVR's, but as the end of a school year approaches a lot of fun is taken away by ignorant people( mostly students though) that are not willing to put effort in getting their thing to work and just come here (as a beginner) and more or less demand that we write their code.
And then are not willing to listen to us.
The problem is that when you get 20 of thoose a day(that I cannot imagine atmel wants to have on this forum) the number 21 that is willing to learn also gets hit. So I agree that we should start being more polite and possibly ignore the people that do not want to learn.
A small draw back I see there is that these people will be getting into cross posting as they do not get their answer fast enough, subsequently get tossed by the moderators and then also leave disappointed or mad because those asholes (ex-me) did not help me in making my stuff work and thus also spread a negative word...
I hope this will help a bit.....
lets start with sending unwilling newbies to the tutorials and starter thread. And make this a better forum. Then if we get lucky and Atmel wins the lottery jackpot perhaps Atmel then can also show some gratitude for what is happening on this forum and take us a bit more serious as serious users and put some time and effort in to make this forum tip top again. |
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1)Datasheet and application notes checked?
2)tutorial forum
3)Newbie start here
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Posted: Jan 23, 2012 - 12:54 PM |
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Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 62299
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
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Quote:
but as the end of a school year approaches a lot of fun is taken away by ignorant people( mostly students though) that are not willing to put effort in getting their thing to work and just come here (as a beginner) and more or less demand that we write their code.
So what? If they don't add to your "fun" then ignore the posts. Surely it's as simple as that?
Quote:
perhaps Atmel then can also show some gratitude for what is happening on this forum and take us a bit more serious as serious users and put some time and effort in to make this forum tip top again.
These things are not related. Atmel could well already have plans for forum improvement but I don't think it's predicated on "tidying up the act" of the existing forum. I just don't understand why people think these things are related?
It's a simple enough thing: can we all be a bit more polite to new posters. Nothing more than that. |
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Posted: Jan 23, 2012 - 01:25 PM |
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Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 786
Location: Muenster, Germany
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| On a different note: if AVRfreaks is such a terrible place to chat, why is there an noticeably increasing frequency throughout the last weeks of, well, no, not newcomers/beginners, but last-minute, party-time is over, i have to finish my assignment, posters? If we're such a crazy crowd, why don't they know this "fact" about AVRfreaks? Do they nevertheless get advice to look here for help, or is their appearance here a measure of the level of despair on their side? |
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Einstein was right: "Two things are unlimited: the universe and the human stupidity. But i'm not quite sure about the former..."
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Posted: Jan 23, 2012 - 01:54 PM |
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Joined: Aug 06, 2008
Posts: 365
Location: Rockall
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Thought provoking.
I am more active on another forum for another field (almost entirely). They have a topic along the lines of:
"Beginners start here - no question is too simple, we all have to start somewhere"
This has several advantages:
Posts are clearly from those who have little knowledge of the subject.
There is clear permission to ask anything without fear of censure.
Those offering censure are clearly out of order.
Those who really can't bear beginners questions can ignore the topic.
So... "what does the panel think?" |
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Cheers,
Joey
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Posted: Jan 23, 2012 - 02:09 PM |
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Joined: May 02, 2007
Posts: 3016
Location: Nieuwegein, Netherlands
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joeyAVR wrote:
Thought provoking.
I am more active on another forum for another field (almost entirely). They have a topic along the lines of:
"Beginners start here - no question is too simple, we all have to start somewhere"
This has several advantages:
Posts are clearly from those who have little knowledge of the subject.
There is clear permission to ask anything without fear of censure.
Those offering censure are clearly out of order.
Those who really can't bear beginners questions can ignore the topic.
So... "what does the panel think?"
advocate of the devil:
see the 'newbie start here' thread/topic made by Stu san and even made a sticky at the top of the forum.
http://www.avrfreaks.net/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=70673
is that in line with your thought?
ow and note that most newbies indeed start posting in the AVR forum, with out looing any further so it is to my opinion even in the right forum...
no offence meant. |
_________________
1)Datasheet and application notes checked?
2)tutorial forum
3)Newbie start here
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Posted: Jan 23, 2012 - 02:30 PM |
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Joined: Aug 06, 2008
Posts: 365
Location: Rockall
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Quote:
is that in line with your thought?
Nay, nay and thrice nay.
Stu's advice is sound, but it's not a specific beginners forum. I mean a specific beginners zone, surrounded by flashing lasers and aminefield, if required... |
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Cheers,
Joey
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Posted: Jan 23, 2012 - 02:51 PM |
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Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 62299
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
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Quote:
is that in line with your thought?
No I see what Joey means. The only problem I see is that the same "real beginners" (shall we call them?) that ask less than totally well thought out questions tend to be those that do it in any forum picked almost completely at random. You maybe don't see this because the moderators do our best to coral them all back to AVR Forum but I fear the very people who would benefit from a "beginners" forum are the ones who would fail to spot/use it.
However hopefully the admins will read this thread and consider the suggestion as it's a good one. |
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Posted: Jan 23, 2012 - 03:19 PM |
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Joined: Mar 27, 2002
Posts: 18561
Location: Lund, Sweden
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Quote:
if AVRfreaks is such a terrible place to chat, why is there an noticeably increasing frequency throughout the last weeks of, well, no, not newcomers/beginners, but last-minute, party-time is over, i have to finish my assignment, posters?
Simple, and the same reason spam exists. The cost is very close to naught, nil and nothing. |
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Posted: Jan 23, 2012 - 04:18 PM |
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Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 786
Location: Muenster, Germany
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Johan,
my point was: if AVRfreaks is such an offensive croud of sarcastic know-it-alls, why does AVRfreaks at the same time experience more and more attractiveness?
Didn't we in fact find a way to ever increase traffic over here, and make an Atmel-sponsored forum more attractive than ever?  |
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Einstein was right: "Two things are unlimited: the universe and the human stupidity. But i'm not quite sure about the former..."
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