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 Posted: Jan 17, 2012 - 09:29 AM |
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Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 62941
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
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Quote:
Anyway, I see that ARM-MDK costs about 5000$.
No one says you have to buy Keil! There are several ARM compilers and not least of those is arm-gcc. |
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Posted: Jan 17, 2012 - 09:44 AM |
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Joined: Jun 19, 2002
Posts: 983
Location: SF Bay area
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| I do miss the $0.25 attiny11. (I think it was $0.32 from digikey in 100s.) Sigh. I'm glad I didn't design a product that counted on it being available at that price! |
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Posted: Jan 17, 2012 - 12:13 PM |
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Joined: Feb 09, 2011
Posts: 335
Location: Turnhout, Belgium
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clawson wrote:
Quote:
Anyway, I see that ARM-MDK costs about 5000$.
No one says you have to buy Keil! There are several ARM compilers and not least of those is arm-gcc.
Yes I know about the compilers (used to work with ARM7TDMI, wrote SystemC alike stuff for ARM925 in the pre SystemC time) but what I need is a simulator/debugger. I don't know if those can be found for free? |
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Posted: Jan 17, 2012 - 12:15 PM |
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Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 62941
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
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Posted: Jan 17, 2012 - 12:27 PM |
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Joined: Feb 09, 2011
Posts: 335
Location: Turnhout, Belgium
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clawson wrote:
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I don't know if those can be found for free?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARMulator
gosh.. it's open source now??? I've worked with Armulator. But it's not what I need. I need to be able to debug on a real device. So I need something like AVR Studio for ARM. |
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Posted: Jan 17, 2012 - 12:35 PM |
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Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 62941
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
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Quote:
I need to be able to debug on a real device.
There's unlikely to be a generic solution for that though. NXP probably put a completely different set of peripherals, working in a quite different way around their Cortex M0/M3 cores compared to what STM put around theirs. So such an MCU/SoC simulator would have to come from silicon vendor wouldn't it? (just as AVR8 simulator is supplied by Atmel and Microchip have their own PIC simulator in MPLAB and so on).
But do Keil really have simulators specifically for all of NXP's and STM's and whoever else's ARM based MCUs? Surely they can only simulate the common bits which would be the CPU core.
EDIT: ah I see they have core simulation:
http://www.keil.com/uvision/db_sim.asp
but also peripheral simulation:
http://www.keil.com/uvision/db_sim_prf_peripherals.asp
I guess that is what the $500 buys you?
EDIT2: Ah yes, I see - they actually list what is simulated for each chip so this is NXP LPC 1111:
http://www.keil.com/dd/chip/5369.htm
http://www.keil.com/dd/vtr/5369/12985.htm
That "Device Database" is a huge piece of work and it's unlikely you are going to get access to anything like that for free so maybe it is worth the $500 investment if it really covers such a wide family of CPUs and peripherals? |
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Posted: Jan 17, 2012 - 02:22 PM |
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Joined: Feb 09, 2011
Posts: 335
Location: Turnhout, Belgium
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clawson wrote:
Quote:
I need to be able to debug on a real device.
There's unlikely to be a generic solution for that though. NXP probably put a completely different set of peripherals, working in a quite different way around their Cortex M0/M3 cores compared to what STM put around theirs. So such an MCU/SoC simulator would have to come from silicon vendor wouldn't it? (just as AVR8 simulator is supplied by Atmel and Microchip have their own PIC simulator in MPLAB and so on).
But do Keil really have simulators specifically for all of NXP's and STM's and whoever else's ARM based MCUs? Surely they can only simulate the common bits which would be the CPU core.
EDIT: ah I see they have core simulation:
http://www.keil.com/uvision/db_sim.asp
but also peripheral simulation:
http://www.keil.com/uvision/db_sim_prf_peripherals.asp
I guess that is what the $500 buys you?
EDIT2: Ah yes, I see - they actually list what is simulated for each chip so this is NXP LPC 1111:
http://www.keil.com/dd/chip/5369.htm
http://www.keil.com/dd/vtr/5369/12985.htm
That "Device Database" is a huge piece of work and it's unlikely you are going to get access to anything like that for free so maybe it is worth the $500 investment if it really covers such a wide family of CPUs and peripherals?
Interesting program but not useful for us. We need hardware debuggers mainly because we REALLY debug hardware. We need to see what the MCU is doing when it accesses certain hardware parts and how it interacts. At the moment I'm playing around on a real device on a real prototype. Can't be done with simulation I'm afraid.
Yes that is vendor specific. And that is why I want to stick to 1 vendor. It takes too much time to port everything over and over.
Our software database is already very generic. So software debugging is limited to interfacing with other components. |
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Posted: Jan 17, 2012 - 02:31 PM |
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Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 62941
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
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Quote:
Interesting program but not useful for us. We need hardware debuggers mainly because we REALLY debug hardware. We need to see what the MCU is doing when it accesses certain hardware parts and how it interacts. At the moment I'm playing around on a real device on a real prototype.
Oh if you mean h/w debuggers then good news - ALL ARMs (well old style ones with D in the model number and all the new ones) implement exactly the same JTAG so one interface works for all ARMs. What's more you aren't tied to something proprietary and you can get a "wiggler" for $10 and a really decent one for $50. They generally all adhere to OpenOCD so work with all debugger software.
http://www.bravekit.com/wiggler_arm_arm ... _macraigor
http://www.tincantools.com/product.php?productid=16134 |
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Posted: Jan 17, 2012 - 04:28 PM |
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Joined: Feb 09, 2011
Posts: 335
Location: Turnhout, Belgium
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OK, now I understand why everybody is so keen on ARM  . I'll take a look. |
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Posted: Jan 18, 2012 - 07:25 AM |
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Joined: May 02, 2006
Posts: 321
Location: Norway
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OK.
I have a question. I have design with AVR , arm7 and now with STM32
I have buy a compilator ( Kiel for ST)
Can you tell me why a compilator about 2000$ (perhaps less) has not help to config IO like code vision do for AVR and low cost!
I skip all bad think with keil and the texte editor (codevision is better for that)+++
Thierry |
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Posted: Jan 18, 2012 - 07:48 AM |
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Joined: Jul 27, 2001
Posts: 7429
Location: St. Leonards-on-Sea (UK)
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| Why don't you ask Keil? |
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Leon Heller
G1HSM
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Posted: Jan 18, 2012 - 08:38 AM |
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Joined: May 02, 2006
Posts: 321
Location: Norway
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I have done! they do not understand why it need.. designer must use a lot of time for nothing..
it is no only keil. same with atole, or IAR.
Atole use a GNU compilator and Eclipse and you must paid for that!
strange word the ARM... |
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Posted: Jan 18, 2012 - 10:06 AM |
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Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 62941
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
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But these CodeWizard things are toys to get beginners going. The kind of professional engineer using something like Keil probably doesn't need toys like this. They will likely either use existing BSP code from the silicon vendor or write their "drivers" from scratch by studying device datasheets. That way they remain in complete control and fully understand the device they are using. If a CodeWizard has written the code for you then the temptation is to think you don't need to understand what it's doing. That's fine for students and hobbyists who are just "playing" and willing to treat some parts of the code as a "black box" but fatal for use in a professional environment (which is where Keil, IAR, etc. target their products).
Quote:
Atole use a GNU compilator and Eclipse and you must paid for that!
strange word the ARM...
No you pay for the value they have added to the raw GCC and Eclipse products. Often that means startup and library code. Or perhaps development tools like code profilers and so on. |
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Posted: Jan 19, 2012 - 06:23 AM |
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Joined: May 02, 2006
Posts: 321
Location: Norway
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for et non sense!
how do you define "toy" .. To day customer want development quicky and cheap. use time to learn how config timer for this CPU is not important. If you do not know how work a timer you have choice a wrong business.
each CPU has this way to do think but timer is timer and so the config file must not use time to work!
CodeVision is not a toys!
Some people love to paid too much and think it is a prof tools!
it seams at it is like that in ARM world... designer are afraid to admit at this can be more effiency and can send big invoice to the customer!
sorry but if you compare (realy) IAR & codevision for AVR , codevision is much better.
Thierry |
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Posted: Jan 19, 2012 - 08:11 AM |
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Joined: Mar 07, 2001
Posts: 2376
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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TPE, you seem to have a lot to learn about the professional development world.
As clawson already explained, you don't accept a black-box solution in sensitive software, especially not in the medical and automotive business where every line of code is seriously scrutinized.
Quick and cheap is NOT words that are used in those businesses. Safe, reliable and secure are the keywords.
To accomplish that, you can use ANY compiler/IDE, but you'll need to write (or understand) all the code from scratch. |
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/Jesper
http://www.yampp.com
The quick black AVR jumped over the lazy PIC.
What boots up, must come down.
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Posted: Jan 19, 2012 - 09:47 AM |
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Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 62941
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
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Quote:
Quick and cheap is NOT words that are used in those businesses. Safe, reliable and secure are the keywords.
To accomplish that, you can use ANY compiler/IDE, but you'll need to write (or understand) all the code from scratch.
My point exactly.
I guess if you make some kind on meaningless product like an alarm clock or something it doesn't matter if you don't really have a clue how it works - you might as well just make it with an Arduino and remain almost totally clueless.
But say you are controlling the water pumps that supply a large city with water, or a piece of medical equipment measuring respiratory rate, or the lighting control system in a car you can't guess at this stuff or only have half an idea how it works. THAT is professional software engineering - the rest is just playing. |
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Posted: Jan 19, 2012 - 09:52 AM |
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Joined: May 02, 2006
Posts: 321
Location: Norway
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ok guy.. becare full before to tell at someone is amator!
you do not know about all.
In my case juste 35 year in electronique for high volum / low cost to home automatisation and more. for production for 10 pieces ( GSN nett analyse) to 5 millions years.
But I am agree with you for one think, you must know what you do but how to configure syntase for a TIMER is not this parts of work to use time.
if you think so, perhpas you must learn about reel work.
Thierry |
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Posted: Jan 19, 2012 - 09:55 AM |
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Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 62941
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
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| Whatever |
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Posted: Jan 19, 2012 - 11:26 AM |
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Joined: Dec 22, 2005
Posts: 1281
Location: shiraz , iran
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| Guys do you happen to know the cheapest ARM device with TFT controller, And more than 150MHz power? |
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I love Digital
and you who involved in it!
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Posted: Jan 19, 2012 - 11:42 AM |
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Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 62941
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
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Quote:
with TFT controller
I think you need to be a bit more specific - what pixel and color resolutions.
I've used the OMAP5910 which is exactly 150MHz (and has a 150MHz DSP on the silicon too) and it has a TFT/STN controller but limited to something like 1000x1000.
(the various Beagle boards use later OMAPs so I'm guessing they might have the same/higher spec and boards are already available) |
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