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 Posted: Jul 29, 2011 - 10:01 PM |
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Joined: Dec 06, 2007
Posts: 2512
Location: Redmond, WA USA
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clawson wrote:
a nod's as good as a wink
s/b
Quote:
A nod is as good as a wink...
Faces.   |
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Larry
Those afraid to embrace the future will quickly fade into the past. - larryvc
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Posted: Jul 29, 2011 - 10:01 PM |
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Joined: Mar 27, 2002
Posts: 18585
Location: Lund, Sweden
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Quote:
and bit them in the backup
 "Tape worm" just took on a totally different leaning.. |
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Posted: Aug 04, 2011 - 09:14 PM |
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Joined: Mar 01, 2001
Posts: 4953
Location: Rocky Mountains
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gregsmithcts wrote:
Non professionals, wouldn't know a revision control system if it was free, self installing and self maintaining (and bit them in the backup).
But what if it was free, self-installing, and self-maintaining, and bit them in the backup... would they still be interested in learning it? I would think that the concept is not *that* hard to learn, and the advantages of it are many... |
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Posted: Aug 04, 2011 - 10:15 PM |
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Joined: Nov 04, 2010
Posts: 2098
Location: Bristol, UK
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First you need to address apathy, then denial, then acceptance. God, I sound like a therapist!
ps. I was going to be an apathy's-it, but I just couldn't be bothered!
My comment stands. |
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--greg
Still learning, don't shout at me, educate me.
Starting the fire is easy; the hardest part is learning how to keep the flame!
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Posted: Aug 05, 2011 - 02:38 AM |
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Joined: Jul 06, 2009
Posts: 54
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Hmm. I guess I fall into Greg's "less aspiring noob" bracket. I dip in and out of this stuff from time to time - if I'm honest right now, only when I need to - and if I need to do something quick and dirty I often reach for an Arduino (as long as it's not fussy about timing) rather than a "bare bones" AVR chip as it's much easier (perhaps too easy, if there is such a thing) to do the basics, which 99% of the time is all I need.
I have been bitten umpteen times (including again, recently, by the lack of a revision control system - I have used SVN in past lives, but it was always administered by someone else - so I'm thinking it's time I bit the bullet and set up something here for myself, as I end up doing a lot of small software projects and it's frankly criminal that I'm not doing so already.
Oh well, yet another book's worth of stuff I'll have to read... |
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Posted: Aug 05, 2011 - 04:24 AM |
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Joined: Mar 01, 2001
Posts: 4953
Location: Rocky Mountains
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General_Exception wrote:
I have been bitten umpteen times (including again, recently, by the lack of a revision control system - I have used SVN in past lives, but it was always administered by someone else - so I'm thinking it's time I bit the bullet and set up something here for myself, as I end up doing a lot of small software projects and it's frankly criminal that I'm not doing so already.
Well, if an RCS was automatically set up for you somewhere, would that make it easier for you to use?
General_Exception wrote:
Oh well, yet another book's worth of stuff I'll have to read...
Here is a free book online that is my go-to reference for Subversion:
http://svnbook.red-bean.com/
It doesn't take that long to go through the relevant chapters. There's advanced stuff that you can skip unless you need it. |
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Posted: Aug 05, 2011 - 09:39 AM |
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Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 62354
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
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Eric,
I think that suggesting people learn to use command line SVN when Tortoise exists is only bound to put them off isn't it?
Cliff |
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Posted: Aug 05, 2011 - 10:08 AM |
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Joined: Mar 27, 2002
Posts: 18585
Location: Lund, Sweden
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You both have a point, As I see it.
To be able to use Subversion with any UI you need to understand how it works, i.e. understanding how the repository is a versioned file-system (rather than a system of versioned files), what a working copy is, what the different operations do, the non-locking principle etc. Nothing of this is rocket sciense, but if you misunderstand any of this you are bound for failure.
As part of my working-for-a-living I do courses in Subversion, and while the context here was people that have never seen a revision control system, I've encountered a lot of people coming from other systems having difficulties with Subversion because of false assumptions.
It is always a joy when I see "a branch is just a copy" really sink in. At that point I know that they have grasped it.
For day-to day use things like Tortoise might be preferrable, unless you are well accustomed to command line interfaces on beforehand and/or are moving between platforms.
For communicating things re Subversion you can be "more precise" using command line commands. |
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Posted: Aug 05, 2011 - 10:16 AM |
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Joined: Sep 20, 2003
Posts: 4080
Location: Surrey, England
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| I have looked at using some sort of RCS(I work alone, but I'm aware of the advantages). If I could find a self-installing, self-integrating simple to use solution I would be very interested, but the last time I looked the user manual was about 800 pages long. Is there a simple solution out there? |
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Posted: Aug 05, 2011 - 10:51 AM |
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Joined: Nov 04, 2010
Posts: 2098
Location: Bristol, UK
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Quote:
Is there a simple solution out there?
Yes, github! |
_________________
--greg
Still learning, don't shout at me, educate me.
Starting the fire is easy; the hardest part is learning how to keep the flame!
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Posted: Aug 05, 2011 - 11:13 AM |
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Joined: Mar 27, 2002
Posts: 18585
Location: Lund, Sweden
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Not sure what you mean by "self-installing" but TortoiseSVN comes as a Windows installer. If you prefer command line interfaces, then you can get a Windows installer for that too. On GNU/Linux ´systems there are packages for the usual package managers, e.g. APT on Debian/*buntu.
The bok that Eric links to is 404 pages in all, but the basic functionality is described in the first 45 or so pages. Next is some somwewhat more advanced stuff and branching/merging at another 85 pages. The rest is server stuff, reference documentation, indices etc.
Forget about git. A version control system that needs to have 140 commands to get the work done is obviously made for ner.., ehhhmm, large distributed software projects where an awful lot of up- and down-stream distribution and control is needed (i.e. the Linux kernel).
If you don't opt for Subversion, then why not have a look at e.g. Mercurial (a.k.a. Hg). |
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Posted: Aug 05, 2011 - 11:20 AM |
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Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 62354
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
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Quote:
Is there a simple solution out there?
Yes, tortoiseSVN.
If one could extricate the "concepts" from the SVN commad line manual that Eric linked to but show how the actual usage is done with the (very easy to use) UI of Tortoise I guess one would have the perfect manual.
To be honest I've never actually looked at a Tortoise manual so I don't know if it's any good - by the time I started using Tortoise+SVN it was after years of Microsoft Visual Sourcesafe so I guess I already knew the concepts (except one is locking and the other isn't).
EDIT: actually this manual looks pretty good:
http://tortoisesvn.net/docs/release/Tor ... index.html
and this description of locking vs. non-locking is great:
http://tortoisesvn.net/docs/release/Tor ... oning.html |
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Posted: Aug 05, 2011 - 11:23 AM |
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Joined: Nov 04, 2010
Posts: 2098
Location: Bristol, UK
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Quote:
Forget about git. A version control system that needs to have 140 commands
I cant speak to the Windoze POC O/S, but GIT installed in my Mac in about 3 seconds, has a pointy clicky interface, and I had my first 'repo' up and running in about 5 minutes, with access from my home machines and over the web from work. I was just testing it out to see what it's about.
I prefer subversion myself and use both pointy clicky interface and command line |
_________________
--greg
Still learning, don't shout at me, educate me.
Starting the fire is easy; the hardest part is learning how to keep the flame!
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Posted: Aug 05, 2011 - 11:39 AM |
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Joined: Sep 20, 2003
Posts: 4080
Location: Surrey, England
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| Working by myself, I'm not that interested in locking/non-locking or sharing concepts. I just want a system that enable me to backtrack to an earlier version of the source. |
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Posted: Aug 05, 2011 - 11:42 AM |
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Joined: Nov 04, 2010
Posts: 2098
Location: Bristol, UK
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John_A_Brown wrote:
Working by myself, I'm not that interested in locking/non-locking or sharing concepts. I just want a system that enable me to backtrack to an earlier version of the source.
Well, subversion and SmartSVN is fairly easy to setup and use. But git, as I've noted, was extremely simple (but I don't know enough about it to comment further). |
_________________
--greg
Still learning, don't shout at me, educate me.
Starting the fire is easy; the hardest part is learning how to keep the flame!
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Posted: Aug 05, 2011 - 11:53 AM |
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Joined: Mar 27, 2002
Posts: 18585
Location: Lund, Sweden
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Quote:
I just want a system that enable me to backtrack to an earlier version of the source.
Subversion, specifically TortoiseSVN (again, assuming Windoze).
If you don't need to access the repository from different machines then it can work with a repository in the local file system, and in that scenario no server software is needed at all.
To be fair, all distributed RCSes I know off (Bazaar, git, Mercurial) sports this feature also, since they by their nature get rid of the concept of a centralized repository. |
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Posted: Aug 05, 2011 - 11:54 AM |
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Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 62354
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
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Quote:
But git, as I've noted, was extremely simple
Just to be clear. Just as
"svn" != "TortoiseSVN"
"git" != "GitHub"
Only a masochist (i.e. Linux kernel developers) would use "git" or "svn" without some kind of easy to use interface as provided by GitHub and TortoiseSVN. |
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Posted: Aug 05, 2011 - 11:58 AM |
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Joined: Nov 04, 2010
Posts: 2098
Location: Bristol, UK
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Quote:
Only a masochist
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_________________
--greg
Still learning, don't shout at me, educate me.
Starting the fire is easy; the hardest part is learning how to keep the flame!
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Posted: Aug 05, 2011 - 12:09 PM |
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Joined: Mar 27, 2002
Posts: 18585
Location: Lund, Sweden
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Quote:
Only a masochist (i.e. Linux kernel developers) would use "git" or "svn" without some kind of easy to use interface as provided by GitHub and TortoiseSVN.
Interesting.
I'll remember this for our next discussion of a substitute for "find in files", that ends up towards shell scripts in bash. 
Subversion and the SVN command line client actually are very straight forward, have etremely high "orthogonality" etc etc. You need to know how to type a repository reference (URL/path and reviion specifiers, all very standardized and straight forward IMO), and know perhaps ten SVN subcommands for your daily work. Lesse: checkout, add, delete, commit, update, revert, stat, log, info(?). Hmm... That's actually only nine. |
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Posted: Aug 05, 2011 - 12:13 PM |
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Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 62354
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
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Quote:
checkout, add, delete, commit, update, revert, stat, log, info(?)
"blame"? (I like this a lot as it tells me who to direct the grumpy email at!) |
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