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 Posted: Sep 25, 2009 - 11:17 AM |
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Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 74
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Hello, how appropriate is to use an AVR for a security system,
sorry if this is a stupid question,,
pd, Ive been doing some tests, with security sensors, and making sound in a alarm speaker, but this makes noise when I feed the circuit, like it sends signals to this actuator when powered on, how can I avoid this?
tnx |
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Posted: Sep 25, 2009 - 11:52 AM |
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Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 62299
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
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I'm going to move your post to the new forum about Atmel security products where it will be seen by Atmel experts in that area.
The bottom line is that the AVR itself is useless for a really secure application. Far Eastern labs will extract the contents of any "locked" AVR for $500 or less.
Cliff |
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Posted: Sep 25, 2009 - 02:11 PM |
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Joined: Jun 15, 2008
Posts: 1759
Location: North Carolina USA
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I think the question is "how do I keep the alarm from sounding when I power up the AVR". If so the solution is to drive output devices with low port outputs. Port outputs are high/tristated when powering up.
mako34 wrote:
Ive been doing some tests, with security sensors, and making sound in a alarm speaker, but this makes noise when I feed the circuit, like it sends signals to this actuator when powered on, how can I avoid this?
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Posted: Sep 26, 2009 - 06:47 PM |
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Joined: May 27, 2002
Posts: 737
Location: Alabama USA
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| Some security panels (circuit boards) are based on Atmel devices. I am looking at a Ademco board that is based on the Atmel87C518RD2 chip. Of course this not a AVR controller, therefore there is no reason to think that the AVR or any other micro controller cold not be used in a security based system. |
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Posted: Sep 26, 2009 - 10:12 PM |
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Joined: Dec 11, 2007
Posts: 6849
Location: Cleveland, OH
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Depends on the intended purpose.
My home has an alarm system, the central alarm box and UPS is key locked, and in the basement. Buy the time you break into the house, and get to the basement, to reach the alarm, you have already tripped several sensors, and called the alarm company via an underground phone line.
Knowing the code of the alarm program in the chip isn't much use for breaking into my house.
It might be useful for building copy-cat knockoffs, but the alarm code is rather trivial, anyways, compared to many projects. It would be a lot easier just to design a new system with new code!
The only real reason to hack the code would be if there was a "Back Door" access code, hard coded into each unit. Dumb for an alarm company to install such a code, as if it leaks out the entire product line is trash.
JC |
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Posted: Sep 27, 2009 - 06:09 AM |
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Joined: May 27, 2002
Posts: 737
Location: Alabama USA
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DocJC: When your alarm is triggered and you contact the Alarm Company are you using one of the several protocols that are used with commercial systems such as Ademco and or ADT? Usually that is very special coding and weird baud rates and signal levels.
One process I thought of using is a Auto dialer that can dial , say, a pager and then display a numerical message on the pager.
The buried phone line seems like a good idea. Some systems use a call phone back up and monitor the phone line detecting when the phone line has been cut.
All of the alarm monitoring cell phones I have worked with are "special" and not the standard type such as AT&T or Verizon.
Best Regards, |
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Posted: Sep 27, 2009 - 05:43 PM |
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Joined: Dec 11, 2007
Posts: 6849
Location: Cleveland, OH
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Interesting question.
When I got married and my wife and I moved into our new home I looked at installing, (moving), my alarm system into the new house. Up until then it was my own design. It used a dialer chip, (a pulse dialer... tells you the vintage of the system), that paged me. 8085 based, (Asm language, looong time ago).
As a new requirement was utilization of a commercial alarm system, the companies available wanted to use their box, and not divulge their protocols... Hence the system now uses a commercial “box”, with a hybrid sensor system, (some mine, some theirs).
Obviously cutting the phone cable is the first step in disabling the system. Back then cell phones were very expensive, and cellular data links were almost unheard of. Using a buried phone cable to the neighborhood junction box solved this problem. Cutting power to the system is approach #2, also obviously easily circumvented with a UPS.
Remember the system isn’t designed to be “perfect”. It just has to make it harder to break into my house than someone else’s… (Not trying to solve all of society’s problems here…). It also has to trip when some amateur crook who doesn’t know what they are doing tries to breaks in. Catch the “dumb thieves”, divert the “smart” ones.
Either way the system makes lots of noise, flashes lots of lights, and will initiate a police response if triggered. At this point the bad guys exit; people and contents are safe.
I hate the sign in the front garden that says “This house Protected by…”, and the little alarm stickers on several of the windows, but it is part of the overall system and deterrent.
JC
P.S. The system also includes fire and carbon monoxide sensing, and the keypad has a Hostage code. If you are forced to enter your house at gunpoint, for example, you enter the hostage code and the alarm company and police are notified, but the local alarm noise & lights aren't triggered... |
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Posted: Sep 27, 2009 - 06:07 PM |
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Joined: May 27, 2002
Posts: 737
Location: Alabama USA
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In my state the alarm business is heavily regulated. I worked for a security company and had to attend classes and then pass test to become "certified".
The fire codes usually have strict requirements. I am told that this is to prevent using critical public assets such as the fire department for false alarms. That seemed to also apply to the police department as well.
I have always felt that I should be able to install anything in my home that is not a threat to public safety or my home as well. I would think that low voltage wiring such as used in security systems does not compromise the public.
I know I am doing the same at my residence. And I would agree that my private installed system must not disrupt public services due to non conformance to the local code regulations.
There is a very strong push to regulate the alarm business, in fact visit the NBFAA organization
http://www.alarm.org/nts/index.html and you can see how big they have become. The electrical code is all wrapped around the security and especially the Life Safety Fire codes.
I could probably go on an on about this but I am afraid I am getting off topic here.
Cheers. |
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Posted: Oct 05, 2009 - 12:00 AM |
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Joined: Jul 02, 2005
Posts: 5944
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Hmmmm, I am at the early design concept stage for a client who wants an alarm system for his unattended equipment located in a public space. It will trigger an email ...
Cheers,
Ross |
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Ross McKenzie
ValuSoft
Melbourne Australia
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Posted: Oct 05, 2009 - 05:33 AM |
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Joined: Mar 01, 2001
Posts: 4953
Location: Rocky Mountains
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clawson wrote:
The bottom line is that the AVR itself is useless for a really secure application. Far Eastern labs will extract the contents of any "locked" AVR for $500 or less.
Has that actually been proven? On all AVR devices? I don't really know one way or the other, so I'm not trolling here. I'm just curious to find out... |
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Posted: Oct 05, 2009 - 06:09 AM |
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Joined: Dec 11, 2007
Posts: 6849
Location: Cleveland, OH
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Parallel Universes & Multi-Dimensional Threads...
I think there is a big difference between "secure hardware" and "secure software". One has to do with protecting the code within the chip, or the communications with the outside world. The other has to do with somebody sticking your device in the back of a pickup truck and driving off... perhaps to then tackle attacking the software...
JC |
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Posted: Oct 05, 2009 - 11:14 AM |
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Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 62299
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
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Quote:
I'm just curious to find out...
Eric,
Sadly I doubt many folks are willing to spend $500 "just to find out" and those who might have used search a service "for real" are unlikely to ever admit it so I guess it would only be someone like Atmel who could justiy the $500 expense just find out if it's really true. However I think if one looks they will find evidence of companies claiming to offer such a service - but maybe it's just a scam in itself - I mean what comeback can the "customer" possibly have? They can hardly approach the police and say "I was ripped off while trying to do something illegal" 
As I understand it they use a targeted laser to knock the charge off the lock bit fuses - on the surface that kind of sounds feasible.
Cliff |
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Posted: Oct 06, 2009 - 08:18 AM |
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Joined: Mar 01, 2001
Posts: 4953
Location: Rocky Mountains
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| Well that's why I asked if it's been proven. Yes, on the surface it sounds feasible, however, who's to say that the fuses are that easy to get to? Or that you won't be able to do that without other collateral damage that negates that process. I would just like to see some backup to the claims... |
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Posted: Oct 06, 2009 - 09:22 AM |
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Joined: Mar 28, 2001
Posts: 20368
Location: Sydney, Australia (Gum trees, Koalas and Kangaroos, No Edelweiss)
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Quote:
Atmel who could justiy the $500 expense just find out if it's really true.
And Eric could go to the crooks incognito with his disguise carrying a brown paper bag filled with money and a locked chip. 
I think there is a thread about someone here sending some people a locked chip and he got a perfect hex file back. |
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John Samperi
Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.
www.ampertronics.com.au
* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly
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Posted: Oct 06, 2009 - 05:07 PM |
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Joined: Apr 01, 2009
Posts: 19
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Quote:
Quote:
clawson wrote:
The bottom line is that the AVR itself is useless for a really secure application. Far Eastern labs will extract the contents of any "locked" AVR for $500 or less.
Has that actually been proven? On all AVR devices? I don't really know one way or the other, so I'm not trolling here. I'm just curious to find out...
Everything that is coded into firmware is only protected if the firmware cannot be read and examined by someone trying to circumvent the system. As soon as you have a firmware image extracted it is only a matter of what effort level is required to ascertain what you are looking for.
Some microprocessors are more suited for protecting firmware images, or partially protecting either confidential blocks of code or locking down the boot sector. These microprocessors come with a price tag equivalent to the security they offer. Atmel has some great solutions in secure microprocessor families and others that protect boot sectors; also secure vault micro’s that users can use to implement their most sensitive root of trust code. Look at secure micro’s AT90SC (8bit), AT91SC (32 bit), or Flash vault micro’s in the AT32UC3L series.
If you are looking for a more cost effective solution to accompany current designs the client security IC devices (CryptoMemory, CryptoRF, and CryptoAuthentication) can be added to existing systems and achieve a suitable security solution. Here is a link to a tutorial that may give you some ideas in this area.
http://www.atmel.com/dyn/resources/prod_documents/CryptoAuthentication_FirmwareProtection.pdf
Quote:
Parallel Universes & Multi-Dimensional Threads...
I think there is a big difference between "secure hardware" and "secure software". One has to do with protecting the code within the chip, or the communications with the outside world. The other has to do with somebody sticking your device in the back of a pickup truck and driving off... perhaps to then tackle attacking the software...
This is a very good comment; in many cases the major concern incorporates both of these issues. Companies are not seeing someone driving off with their systems in a truck, but find that there code and entire BOM are being copied and exact duplicate of their product is sold in the market. In this case the product comes to the market in truckloads and the people that did all the development work end up with the R&D bill while the cloned devices that are half the price take profit and market share.
Chris |
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Posted: Dec 02, 2010 - 07:13 PM |
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Joined: Oct 17, 2010
Posts: 2
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| hello guys, plaese i want to ask if anyone has some idea relating to my project. It involves using a gps unit to send the location of vehicles wirelessly. |
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Posted: Dec 02, 2010 - 08:36 PM |
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Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 62299
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
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What on earth made you pick this thread in this forum? Your hijack has no relevance to either.
Moderator. |
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Posted: Dec 03, 2010 - 01:17 PM |
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Joined: Jul 02, 2005
Posts: 5944
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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intistudent wrote:
using a gps unit to send the location of vehicles wirelessly.
One GPS unit + multiple vehicles ... I'd like to see that! |
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Ross McKenzie
ValuSoft
Melbourne Australia
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Posted: Dec 03, 2010 - 07:03 PM |
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Joined: Oct 17, 2010
Posts: 2
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| I mean the project requires me to send the location of the gps unit wirelessly to a reciever so he can see it on an LCD. Please if any one has some idea on where i can get info/ how to approach that should let me know. THANKS |
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Posted: Dec 03, 2010 - 08:29 PM |
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Joined: Nov 29, 2007
Posts: 3219
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a) You still didn't get the hint about not hijacking an unrelated thread.
b) It is your student project, not ours. We already have our degrees, and we (at least I hope most of us) got them by doing our projects on our own. So why do you think we are interested doing your work?
c) Start studying. HINT: This might involve a trip, or several, to the uni library, engaging your brain, applying what you have learned about engineering in your studies, reading your course notes, textbooks and manuals. |
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Stealing Proteus doesn't make you an engineer.
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Posted: Dec 03, 2010 - 08:31 PM |
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Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 62299
Location: (using avr-gcc in) Finchingfield, Essex, England
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In fact I'm going to lock this thread so intistudent is forced to post elsewhere as he clearly didn't get the message about this being the wrong thread, the wrong forum and not hijacking.
Moderator. |
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