Technicians PASCAL needs alpha and beta testers, interested ?

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As I have plowed through all different types of compilers I got fed up and started writing a new one with some points to it:

 

- all commands should be changeable by the user

- compiling to ASSEMBLER MNEMONICS possible

- compiling to Machine code and hex file possible

- a bad command or function should be possible to change

- relying more on versatillity than speed

- expandable even if no more revisions come out

- built in help system

- simple to share code OR  language commands

- Follow standard PASCAL

- Be MUCH cheaper than what is on market

- Support Strings standard pascal as well as zero terminated

- IDE for both Win32 and Win64 versions

 

My basic thought was, if you are unhappy with a function, change it!

It should not be and is not harder to do than writing a ASSEMBLER macro

I also wanted an enviroment that was simple to maintain and keeps it self clean.

 

Well this compiler does now exist to aprox 70-80% when writing this.

 

If you are interested in helping out, please let me know. There are MUCH more

to read up on and this project will expand weak by weak as it has done.

 

Hope to hear from someone and thanks for your time.

Bosse

 

P.S. You can contact me here at the forum D..S

Technicians PASCAL developer

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TechPascal wrote:
- all commands should be changeable by the user

What do you mean by, "commands" here?

 

- a bad command or function should be possible to change

Eh?

 

- simple to share code OR  language commands

Not sure what is meant by sharing "language commands" ?

 

- IDE for both Win32 and Win64 versions

Wot - no linux?!

 

 

 

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You have not said anything that leads me to believe that this has anything to do with AVR.

 

Does it?

 

Moderator

 

Ross McKenzie ValuSoft Melbourne Australia

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I guess he's taking "Compilers and General Programming" to include stuff not necessarily AVR-related?

 

But "Off Topic" may well be a better place ... ?

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I guess this is unrelated to the book of similar name?

 

https://www.amazon.com/Pascal-Te...

 

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I notice that OP's only other post is here:

 

https://community.atmel.com/foru...

 

As that appears to be a technical reply to a question about SAM7 I wonder if we can make the inference that this compiler is for ARM not AVR?

 

(in which case, yes, this thread is misplaced).

 

[in passing I note yet another deficiency of this forum software - the avatar above has "Post 2, view posts" but when you click through that the only thread/post it shows is this one. I had to use moderator tools to find his other post!]

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clawson wrote:
when you click through that the only thread/post it shows is this one. I had to use moderator tools to find his other post!

His other post is on the 'Comments/Replies' tab - no need for Moderator tools!

 

But I agree - I often find that presentation confusing.

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awneil wrote:

TechPascal wrote:
- all commands should be changeable by the user

What do you mean by, "commands" here?

 

- a bad command or function should be possible to change

Eh?

 

- simple to share code OR  language commands

Not sure what is meant by sharing "language commands" ?

 

- IDE for both Win32 and Win64 versions

Wot - no linux?!

 

 

 

 

  I mean what I write, a bad command produced by the compiler should be possible to redesign to your own taste!

That is what I wrote and what I mean!

Technicians PASCAL developer

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Oh YES!

 

The ENTIRE PASCAL compiler and it's enviroment is AVR based to 100%

supporting chips from ATtiny2313 .. ATmega64 in the first batch

 

/Bosse

Technicians PASCAL developer

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I think the word 'command' is not the correct term. Is this what Wirth uses in his text?

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I will anser both your questions, remarks here...

 

NO! It has nothing to do with GENERAL compilers at all!  It all ends up in AVR ASSEMBLER -> HEX file ready for chip use!

 

NO! I have never seen the book, but it is always nice to know that more people think or at least name things in a similar manor...

 

/Bosse

Technicians PASCAL developer

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clawson wrote:

I notice that OP's only other post is here:

 

https://community.atmel.com/foru...

 

As that appears to be a technical reply to a question about SAM7 I wonder if we can make the inference that this compiler is for ARM not AVR?

 

(in which case, yes, this thread is misplaced).

 

[in passing I note yet another deficiency of this forum software - the avatar above has "Post 2, view posts" but when you click through that the only thread/post it shows is this one. I had to use moderator tools to find his other post!]

 

No, the compiler is for the AVR not the ARM enviroment. But I have managed to consume a number of ARM project as well!

 

I just found a question that I thought I might could help with, sorry if anybody was offended... I been doing this very long time.

 

Regards Bosse

 

 

 

Technicians PASCAL developer

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awneil wrote:

clawson wrote:
when you click through that the only thread/post it shows is this one. I had to use moderator tools to find his other post!

His other post is on the 'Comments/Replies' tab - no need for Moderator tools!

 

But I agree - I often find that presentation confusing.

 

 I can assure you that he will be a lot more active here in the future, a long time ago  when AVR had a lot of things to do with AVR.

Before Microchips takeover, when STK500 was new and people used that as major development help. I was actully part of the

SWEDISH support system through Paul Kanarbik then seller on ACTE and Leif who was some sort of Sweden/Europe boss.. But that

is some time ago.

 

/Bosse

Technicians PASCAL developer

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awneil wrote:

TechPascal wrote:

- all commands should be changeable by the user

What do you mean by, "commands" here?

TechPascal wrote:
  I mean what I write, a bad command produced by the compiler should be possible to redesign to your own taste!

That is what I wrote and what I mean!

 

It remains unclear.

 

As Kartman says, I think  'command' is not the correct term here.

 

You mean, if the compiler generates bad assembler output?

 

 

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I can assure you that when I write command, I mean command.. the basic fossil of the compiler is user editable.

 

I do not talk about Functions or Procedures or any other sort of high level language supported output. I mean the

core command as far down you can come.

 

/Bosse

 

Technicians PASCAL developer

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TechPascal wrote:
NO! I have never seen the book

That is not reassuring from someone intending to write a Pascal compiler!

 

It's like someone saying they're going to write a 'C' compiler when they've never seen (let alone read) K&R !!

 

surprise

 

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awneil wrote:

awneil wrote:

TechPascal wrote:

- all commands should be changeable by the user

What do you mean by, "commands" here?

TechPascal wrote:
  I mean what I write, a bad command produced by the compiler should be possible to redesign to your own taste!

That is what I wrote and what I mean!

 

It remains unclear.

 

As Kartman says, I think  'command' is not the correct term here.

 

You mean, if the compiler generates bad assembler output?

 

 

 

  No I insist!  I am talking about the core command let's say the command ADD or SUB or

any other command under PASCAL, that fundamental is specific for BYTE or WORD or any other variable type.

So every type is basically supported by a command that is unique for the problem.. When you write your code

you will actually combine the commands from the core and create your flow of action. You can actually in this

compiler chose where you want to extrapolate the code. HEX-file, ASSEMBLER MNEMONICS or PASCAL level it's up

to you to decide.  The core command can also be changed if need be. 

 

/Bosse

Technicians PASCAL developer

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I respect your opinion!

 

/Bosse

Technicians PASCAL developer

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TechPascal wrote:
let's say the command ADD or SUB or any other command

They are called Assembler Instructions.

 

that fundamental is specific for BYTE or WORD or any other variable type.

So every type is basically supported by a command that is unique for the problem

No, that isn't how high-level languages work

 

http://www.avrfreaks.net/comment...

 

 

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Some of us used to program in Pascal, then C became the popular choice. With all the years of development, we tend have much reused code. Why would we go back? Many are happy with present compiler.

It all starts with a mental vision.

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I'm always interested in Pascal compilers, especially if they are Open Source. I think the market for a new commercial Pascal compiler is approximately zero. Even if I understand the idea of "user changeable commands", I'm not sure that is something anyone needs. I have no idea what "fossil of the compiler" means! To be honest though, Pascal is pretty much dead, Modula 3 would be the place to start.

 

What I really would like is a way to mix C/C++ easily with other languages in the same project, because nearly all source code is C/C++.

Bob.

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I respect your opinion, that is exactly how Tech PASCAL works, sorry!

 

/Bosse

Technicians PASCAL developer

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KitCarlson wrote:
Some of us used to program in Pascal, then C became the popular choice. With all the years of development, we tend have much reused code. Why would we go back? Many are happy with present compiler.

 

In deed who has'nt, and I have no intention disturbing your habit.

 

But I have a growing number of people that rely want it, but most don't

have the know how to help finish it faster.

 

/Bosse

 

Technicians PASCAL developer

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donotdespisethesnake wrote:

I'm always interested in Pascal compilers, especially if they are Open Source. I think the market for a new commercial Pascal compiler is approximately zero. Even if I understand the idea of "user changeable commands", I'm not sure that is something anyone needs. I have no idea what "fossil of the compiler" means! To be honest though, Pascal is pretty much dead, Modula 3 would be the place to start.

 

What I really would like is a way to mix C/C++ easily with other languages in the same project, because nearly all source code is C/C++.

 

 I can assure you that PASCAL is well and thriving!

 

Sadly I am not of much help in your quest to marry C/C++ but all the best!

 

/Bosse

Technicians PASCAL developer

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Is this to be open source or commercial?

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Snakeman - you read my mind! Bosse i refrained from making comment as I appreciate the effort people put into their creations and its not an easy pill to swallow when it gets bagged out on a forum. Pascal and AVR aren't at their high point of popularity at this time so I don't think there is a willing market for your creation. Nevertheless, it might serve as a stepping stone to something that has more appeal.
If you had asked me about running javascript or python on a small micro I would've said 'it will eat ram and be f@@#* slow'. I don't think that comment is wrong, but there's plenty of people that just want to flash leds and send messages using IoT stuff that performance and ram are of little consequence. So nurture your creation and see where it leads you.

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clawson wrote:

Is this to be open source or commercial?

 

Super good question!

 

Well, it will become a bit of both..  It is released as a complete IDE...

 

There will be a some what limited free version if you want to try it out, base on same principle.

 

There will be a one time buy for life with free upgrades after that..

 

The libraries for the payed version is open and you can reach almost anything inside!

 

What you can't reach is some interface sections that adapts and interfaces with the core.

There is also a growing one click interface helper that absorbs code into the compiler.

But as long as you follow a few simple rules you can do huge amount of stuff, you can also

see how things are done, but this is academical.  I simply want a better PASCAL tool!

 

/Bosse

 

 

Technicians PASCAL developer

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Kartman wrote:
Snakeman - you read my mind! Bosse i refrained from making comment as I appreciate the effort people put into their creations and its not an easy pill to swallow when it gets bagged out on a forum. Pascal and AVR aren't at their high point of popularity at this time so I don't think there is a willing market for your creation. Nevertheless, it might serve as a stepping stone to something that has more appeal. If you had asked me about running javascript or python on a small micro I would've said 'it will eat ram and be f@@#* slow'. I don't think that comment is wrong, but there's plenty of people that just want to flash leds and send messages using IoT stuff that performance and ram are of little consequence. So nurture your creation and see where it leads you.

 

 Thank you!

 

You always have to stand by your ideas.

I have plenty of people who wants the finished thing, but not many have the skill to help.

The reason why this started was because I was extreamly displeased with most things that exists of PASCAL nature for AVR.

So, I looked arround and found more than a few compilers, all competent as you say flashing LED:s... that is not at all what I

want to do. The first test I done now  and they are preliminary is good. One example where I beat most compiler is as an example

64 BOOLEAN variables will reside in 8 bytes in this compiler. Everything is strict and true bit with this variable type. My demo uses 10

varables of BOOLEAN and they use only 2 bytes. 

 

For me Java and Python has no benefits at all, I am well aware they are frequently used, but I have no liking of them.

 

Thanks again for a civil question! Much appreciated. Ask as much as you like.

 

Regards Bosse

 

Technicians PASCAL developer

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TechPascal wrote:
Well, it will become a bit of both.. It is released as a complete IDE... There will be a some what limited free version if you want to try it out, base on same principle. There will be a one time buy for life with free upgrades after that..
So how do you plan to compete with Atmel giving everyone a free copy of avr-gcc (and Arduino also using it)?

 

Already in the switch from AS4 to AS5/6/7 the vendors of other C compilers must be feeling the pinch. Sure they may have technically superior products but the vast majority of hobbyists and developers are going to be weighing up "do I pay $N for that commercial language tool over there or do I stick with this free one that Atmel gave me? Err, let me see..". So you not only face this but also aim to offer a language for which there is very little demand. (students these days are taught C++ or Java in the main) so where do you see any real market for this?

 

In fact I'd say the biggest competition you face in this day and age would be Arduino - a complete system - not just the tools and the library code but well designed, ready to go boards to accompany it all. And all using C++ that a lot of newer students are already familiar with. Seems like a fairly up hill struggle to me.

 

(if I were developing something to work with/alongside C/C++ for a micro these days I think I'd actually be exploring some variant of Python)

 

Oh and it's not that I don't like Pascal - it's the first language I was formerly taught - but that was in 1981. But these days I principally use C++ and Python with some Asm when I need it.

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clawson wrote:

TechPascal wrote:

Well, it will become a bit of both.. It is released as a complete IDE... There will be a some what limited free version if you want to try it out, base on same principle. There will be a one time buy for life with free upgrades after that..

 

So how do you plan to compete with Atmel giving everyone a free copy of avr-gcc (and Arduino also using it)?

 

Already in the switch from AS4 to AS5/6/7 the vendors of other C compilers must be feeling the pinch. Sure they may have technically superior products but the vast majority of hobbyists and developers are going to be weighing up "do I pay $N for that commercial language tool over there or do I stick with this free one that Atmel gave me? Err, let me see..". So you not only face this but also aim to offer a language for which there is very little demand. (students these days are taught C++ or Java in the main) so where do you see any real market for this?

 

In fact I'd say the biggest competition you face in this day and age would be Arduino - a complete system - not just the tools and the library code but well designed, ready to go boards to accompany it all. And all using C++ that a lot of newer students are already familiar with. Seems like a fairly up hill struggle to me.

 

(if I were developing something to work with/alongside C/C++ for a micro these days I think I'd actually be exploring some variant of Python)

 

Oh and it's not that I don't like Pascal - it's the first language I was formerly taught - but that was in 1981. But these days I principally use C++ and Python with some Asm when I need it.

 

I don't!

 

And who says that you don't have Arduino interface in this enviroment as well!

Also I said, there will be a free version of this. Regarding enviroment, Technicians

PASCAL is a complete IDE , how good will be up to the users to judge.

 

Re the boards, that is primarily driven by Chinese and they don't care what you program with!

I also have my own production line for SMD:s so if I want and the need is there no problem.

 

/Bosse

 

 

 

 

 

Technicians PASCAL developer

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TechPascal wrote:
Well, it will become a bit of both.. It is released as a complete IDE...

 

So on what basis are you asking people to "help out"?

 

If you are looking for beta testers, post the link where the software can be downloaded. If you are looking for programmers, there are probably some people here you could hire... I'm currently available.

 

 

 

Bob.

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Yes... it would be a bit rude to invite volunteers to contribute freely to a commercial product. Just saying...

Ross McKenzie ValuSoft Melbourne Australia

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FPC (Free Pascal Compiler) already has some support for AVR , although it is nowhere near as solid as its support for other hardware.  It is slowly improving though...

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donotdespisethesnake wrote:

TechPascal wrote:

Well, it will become a bit of both.. It is released as a complete IDE...

 

 

So on what basis are you asking people to "help out"?

 

If you are looking for beta testers, post the link where the software can be downloaded. If you are looking for programmers, there are probably some people here you could hire... I'm currently available.

 

 

 

 

 Basically, if there is anyone out there that like me want a better PASCAL tool and can see a reason

to commit to help out, naturally they will have a copy of what ever we come up with in the end.

No one knows what is needed right now, but the different type of things are many and varied!

 

I think it is probably most interesting for someone that actually also want a tool like this to come

to a release point in the same way as me.

 

/Bosse

 

Technicians PASCAL developer

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valusoft wrote:

Yes... it would be a bit rude to invite volunteers to contribute freely to a commercial product. Just saying...

 

That is not what it is about, but I can't promise anything because nobody knows what will happen!
I have helped out myself with several 3D applications as well as robotic systems on a voluntary basis.
My compensation was plenty full, I got knowledge, I got a copy of the commercial system and good
contacts re a lot of things.

 

If you don't like it, just ignore it.

 

/Bosse

Technicians PASCAL developer

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ccrause wrote:

FPC (Free Pascal Compiler) already has some support for AVR , although it is nowhere near as solid as its support for other hardware.  It is slowly improving though...

 

  Absolutely, and I have the greatest respect for their effort! But it doesn't do what I want it to.

I have used FPC a couple of times and it is a nice environment,.

 

/Bosse

Technicians PASCAL developer

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I almost hate to post this link: http://spectrum.ieee.org/static/...

 

Pascal does not even make it on the list of the top 48 programming languages which might indicate the amount of commercial interest there would be for a Pascal compiler for AVRs. 

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Someguy22 wrote:
Pascal does not even make it on the list

Delphi is there - which is basically visual Pascal.

 

Interesting that they count VHDL & Verilog as "programming" languages. And Arduino as a distinct languge ...

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Someguy22 wrote:

I almost hate to post this link: http://spectrum.ieee.org/static/...

 

Pascal does not even make it on the list of the top 48 programming languages which might indicate the amount of commercial interest there would be for a Pascal compiler for AVRs. 

 

So why engage ?

 

Regards Bosse

Technicians PASCAL developer

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awneil wrote:

Someguy22 wrote:
Pascal does not even make it on the list

Delphi is there - which is basically visual Pascal.

 

Interesting that they count VHDL & Verilog as "programming" languages. And Arduino as a distinct languge ...

 

I Agree!! 
It is actually EMBARCADERO OBJECT PASCAL if we talk PC...
Who said that the list makers is an authority?

 

Regards Bosse

Technicians PASCAL developer

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Someguy22 wrote:
I almost hate to post this link: ...
Glad you did for it's a good read.

Someguy22 wrote:
... the amount of commercial interest there would be for a Pascal compiler for AVRs.
At least Ada is visible for embedded on three licenses with one for commercial :

Dual license (GPL, commercial) from get go is important to obtain early traction.

Ada did not have a somewhat popular compiler under GPL until about ten years after the creation of the Free Software Foundation (FSF)

 

"Dare to be naïve." - Buckminster Fuller

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There seems to be some fundamental terminology and language barriers in this discussion.

 

TechPascal wrote:

... I been doing this very long time.

 

Then perhaps you can simply post an example, of some simple source, and how that runs in Atmel Studio simulator ?

ie can you Source Step/break and watch variables ?

 

There are other free Pascals out there, for microcontrollers, here is a code snippet from the quite good Turbo51

 

procedure WriteToSerialPort; assembler;
asm  CLR   TI
     MOV   SBUF, A
@1:  JNB   TI, @1
end;

function ReadFromSerialPort : byte; assembler;
asm
@1:  JNB   RI,@1
     CLR   RI
     MOV   A,SBUF
     LCALL WriteToSerialPort
     CJNE  A,#CR,@2
     MOV   A,#LF
     LCALL WriteToSerialPort
@2:
end;

procedure AssignToSerialPort;
begin
  TL1  := BaudRateTimerValue;
  TH1  := BaudRateTimerValue;
  TMOD := %00100001;    { Timer1: no GATE, 8 bit timer, autoreload }
  SCON := %01010000;    { Serial Mode 1, Enable Reception }
  PCON := PCON and %01111111;
  TI   := false;        { Indicate TX ready }
  TR1  := true;         { Enable timer 1 }

{  Assign (SerialPort, ReadFromSerialPort, WriteToSerialPort);}
  Assign (SystemIO, ReadFromSerialPort, WriteToSerialPort);
end;

Notice it has in-line assembler, which also nicely single-steps in C51 development systems, via the OMF51 debug file.

 

What is your pascal written in ?

Will it be open source ? Where are the links to the source & examples ?

 

There is also Lazarus/FreePascal which runs on Windows/Linux/RaspPi, so that seems a reasonable model to follow.

 

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Someguy22 wrote:

I almost hate to post this link: http://spectrum.ieee.org/static/...

 

Pascal does not even make it on the list of the top 48 programming languages which might indicate the amount of commercial interest there would be for a Pascal compiler for AVRs. 

It does, you missed an alias.

Notice not many of those have embedded tags, and Assembly is quite high up that list, which is always good to see :)