Schematic- and PCB design programs

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Diptrace:- Also available is the diptrace forum. Go to http://www.diptrace.com and register to enter the forum. I have placed large files in the shared component lib's including almost all of the C+K switch catalog (THP & SMD), Omron power & signal (including shielded RF types)but to name a few.

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do you have experience in Proteus?
is it better than Eagle? in which sense?

Proteus has the "auto-place" feature, which automatically places the components on the board (based on the distance of the connections between components).
Is this auto-place useful in practice?

Eagle does not have this feature (only a auto-placed by coping the position in the schematic).

Regards,
David

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We've used a few different programs:

Orcad for schematic capture. (Orcad is made by Cadence)
Pads for layout. (Pads is made by Mentor Graphics)

and as a free option: DesignSpark

Victor
San Francisco Circuits

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Victor, how to you get Orcad to talk to Mentor?

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I haven't looked at this post in about 6 months. This reply is for steve17 in response to a post he made on July 28. He was asking if anyone else had used Easy-PC.

I have been using it for a little over 3 years. I use the 2000 pin version. I have purchased 2 upgrades to get the features that were added with the upgrades.

During the 3 years I have designed approximately 50 boards. They were all 2-layer and 4-layer boards with the exception of 2 single layer boards. I have encountered a few minor problems but Tech Support has always been quick to respond (M-F) with the solutions. The user forum is fairly active and you can find good tips there.

I use the autorouter most of them time if the board has more than about 20 components on it. I place the components on the board based on the connections between them and on over 30 years of board design experience. My design experience goes back to the black tape and Bishop pad days. Basically what I am doing is giving the router the best chance at completing the connections.

As for the autorouter, I purchased the Pro Router. The free one that comes with the program isn't very good. I actually purchased Pro Router when I was trying to design a complex board about 2 years ago. The board was a 5X5 inch, 4-layer board with over 300 components. I let the free router try to route it. After over 12 hours of running and not completing I shut it down. I downloaded the trial version of the Pro Router and installed it. It routed the board in less than 2 minutes. I was sold on it and placed my order.

Now for the cons of the autorouter. I use it only to get the traces in place. I then do all clean up manually. The design that the autorouter produces is not pretty and is in no way suitable for manufacturing. It does a lot of stupid things. So plan on fixing the majority of the traces yourself. In the case of the 5X5 board above, I spent approximately 24 hours cleaning it up. But the autorouter probably saved 100 hours of putting the traces in by hand (assuming I could have pulled that off).

To make a board you create the schematic first. You can make a board without a schematic but only do this for the most simple boards. The schematic has to have all the correct parts (meaning packages) in it. If the included libraries do not have the parts you will have to create them.

The parts creation process is really simple, especially if you use the wizard. I haven't found any part that cannot be created. Someone mentioned that it could only create PIC parts but that is not true. I have a lot of AVR parts in my libraries that I created. To make a library part you create the schematic symbol first. Then you create the pcb pad symbol. Finally you link the two together to create the actual component that is used by the program.

After you design the schematic you then design the board. You use the "Translate to PCB" tool which places all the components into a component bin similar to what Eagle does. You then drag the components out onto the board where you want them. Once the board is complete you then run an integrity check. This insures the schematic and board match. Next you run the connectivity check to make sure all the connections are correct. Finally your run the design rule check. This checks to make sure there are no manufacturing violations or shorted traces. You can setup all the design rules to match what you and your board house require. The rules include things like trace to trace, trace to pad, and trace to board edge spacings.

After you complete all board checks you can then generate the gerber and drill files for manufacturing purposes. I have only had problems with one board house and the gerbers. The BatchPCB house(Sparkfun) rejects the design if you have copper pours and your minimum trace size is set to 8 mils. Increasing the minimum trace size to 10 mils will keep BatchPCB from rejecting the design. Of course this creates design rule violations in the Easy-PC DRC check if you are in fact using 8 mil or smaller traces. In this case, send an email to BatchPCB and they will manually pass the board.

One thing I have learned is that if you make a design change, you need to make the change in the schematic. Then make the same changes on the PCB including updating the netlist names to match the schematic. You do not want to make the change on the schematic and forward the changes to the PCB. That can create a huge mess. After you make the changes and do a integrity check the progam warns you that you have made board changes that have to be back annotated to the schematic. Tell the program to delete all the back annotation changes. The integrity check can then be ran to insure everything is still in order.

The learning curve for the program is not too bad. You can learn the basics fairly quickly. The more complex opertations take longer to master. I still find features occasionally that I didn't know existed. And I have learned a lot of ways to trick the program into doing what I want it to do when I am making changes to the original board/schematic.

My overall feeling is that Easy-PC is a very professional program and worth every penny I paid for it. It is a little costly for the hobbyist but there are other free options for the hobby crowd. Even if you are a hobbyist and make a lot of boards it would probably be worth the cost of the program.

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RS's DesignSpark is based on EasyPC.

Leon Heller G1HSM

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dksmall wrote:
Victor, how to you get Orcad to talk to Mentor?

Hi Dksmall,

sorry for the 3 week delay in replying..

I’m assuming you are referring to generating a valid netlist from Orcad in order to load into Mentor PADS.

There are two ways for Orcad Capture to be compatible with Mentor, PADS. Mentor has a translator for Orcad to Dxdesigner or Plogic schematic software. The other way is to make a pads netlist directly from Orcad Capture. However, the netlist that is generated might need to have the first line (header) changed to be compatible with your current version of PADS.

hope that helps!

Victor
San Francisco Circuits

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Our DE group was using the older version of Mentor, which didn't support an Orcad import. I believe they are in the process of upgrading to PADS, so I will have to pursue this option. Our test group uses Orcad and if we need to leyout a board, the Mentor guys have to start from scratch by drawing the schematic in Mentor before they can use Mentor to lay it out.

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My schematic capture/layout program of choice is Altium Designer. I changed jobs in November and at the new job I use OrCAD. I've given it about 3 months now - I figured it'd grow on me.

It hasn't.

It is truly awful in comparison. How is this junk the industry standard? I guess it is fairly cheap? Bleh. Buggy, clumsy, crashy, terrible.

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There is now Designspark V2.0, which has a 3D view of the assembled board and improved Eagle "compatibility".

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this week I needed to photoplot some old pcb files for a client so the products could be produced again..had to get out an old DOS 6.22 computer with P-CAD 5 on it. P-CAD 5 is a 1991 pcd cad program...spent $8k -$10k for it when originally purchased back in 88-93. It was made by Personal Cad Systems. Later it was sold to Accel, then Protel, and then Altium.
I am still amazed how much CAD the programmers were able to produce in a DOS computer with 640k (and XMS mem). What really makes it amazing is so many of the programs today that require todays hardware still can not offer the productivity a user could accomplish in P-CAD.
I think it makes a big difference when the programmer knows you only have a finite amount of memory to get the job done, thus the cmds are simple and productive. I am amazed how fast it runs in DOS vs the $8k Cad resource hogs shipped today like Altium which I also have.

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$ Text removed - JS $

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What a clever troll with bad business practices! Maybe I should send him my intellectual property, I am certain he will not steal it and resell!

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I could send him my intellectual property. He would go broke trying to sell that. :)

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Altium's PCB editor really isnt such a hog, really, it's essentially PCAD ported to Windows. It was still called PCAD back in 2006. Nothing of it has changed in the last few years...

And about productivity, I don't know man, I kind of like the streamlined design flow of Winter'09. The supplier search function in particular removes the additional step of sourcing components completely.

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I thought that PCAD was a completely different product. It was only discontinued a few months ago. Wasn't Protel the precursor of Altium?

Leon Heller G1HSM

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PCAD was being developped by Altium after they bought it from Accel, and they kept up with the development I assume until the last support contracts ended, which was in 2008 I believe. Protel and Altium Designer have always been a suite, and they incorporated PCAD into Altium 6 first I believe... Since then they have pretty much streamlined it in, and removed the name references.

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gdhospers wrote:
There is now Designspark V2.0, which has a 3D view of the assembled board and improved Eagle "compatibility".

I currently use Designspark v2.0 for my PCB Design tool of choice.. The 3D View of the assembled board is pretty awesome and comes in handy. 8)

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Not that it matters but my memory of the Altium Pcad heritage is a bit different...I bought PCAD4 then PCAD5 back in the late 80's and it was from Personal Cad Sytems. If my memory was correct it was about $14k. Accel ended up with it but somewhere in there IBM actually owned it for a very brief period and called the IBM division Altium. When Protel bought it from Accel they aquired the rights to the name Altium thru the purchase from Accel.
At some point they renamed Protel to Altium. I think that was about the time they sold the junk bonds that grew the company. I remember the time/place/food/ and sales pitch of the origional Protel sales seminar when they tried to get PCAD users to dump PCAD and adopt Protel v1. At the time Protel was a 16 bit app. Later it became a 32 bit app and the lab paid about $1495 for the upgrade. Over time the lab acquired the Protell98, Protel99 upgrades as well.
Considering we had over $14k invested in PCAD with service updates, etc..it was not hard to justify several seats of Protel for the lab as they sold them for about $1250 each at the time . I never really liked Protel too much... could layout pcb's faster with PCAD using dos. Of course those old pcb's were mostly thru hole and pcad was fast for that. As the shift to SMT was made PCAD on dos became a bit cumbersome due to the geometries.
There are several computers in the lab with PCAD5 and several other pcb programs including Altium 9. This week I am transferring some old PCAD5 designs into Altium and the work on the PCAD5 part is much faster than the Altium part. At some point the lab will adopt something new but it definately will not be Altium anymore. ... well thats the memory dump and the bits are flipping as time goes by.

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That confirms my recollection that PCAD has never had much in common with Altium. I don't know about Protel, but Altium has never been profitable; they made another large loss last year. I've never understood how they manage to keep trading. I tried it out of curiosity a few months ago and didn't like it much; I much prefer the Pulsonix software I've been using for years.

Leon Heller G1HSM

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I have learned using Eagle using nothing more than youtube tutorials, the only tricky part I noticed is when creating a new part for the first time, it seems too many steps in the procedure, I also noticed that when adding parts to the schematic the search engine might be frustrating sometimes. Anyway, I will still give a high five to Eagle.

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For professionals Altium Designer is obviously the standard.

As a hobbyist I use Eagle a lot, but I'm seriously thinking about switching to KiCad, which is an open-source Eagle clone.

Building my dreams!

Last Edited: Mon. Aug 1, 2011 - 10:59 AM
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Quote:
KiCad, which is an open-source Eagle clone.
You mean it can open/work with Eagle files?? I had it installed a while ago but have since deleted it, it would be nice to be able to work with Eagle files WITHOUT actually having Eagle.

John Samperi

Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.

www.ampertronics.com.au

* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly

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js wrote:
Quote:
KiCad, which is an open-source Eagle clone.
You mean it can open/work with Eagle files?? I had it installed a while ago but have since deleted it, it would be nice to be able to work with Eagle files WITHOUT actually having Eagle.

No Kicad is not an Eagle clone. It is a schematic and PCB design program as is Eagle and there are some scripts to convert files between the two.

Markus

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KICAD is not an Eagle clone but it looks and works in a similar way. It also has comparable features.

Building my dreams!

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At the recent Electronics expo in Melbourne RS had a stand demonstrating DesignSpark (as was Element 14 (Farnell).
Anyway I grabbed a copy of DesignSpark to compare with Eagle.
At the outlook, there are quite a few things I like about DesignSpark, but it does not feel intuitive at all as I make the transition from one to the other.
I have successfully converted an existing Eagle project to DesignSpark without drama. I think it will catch on.
I believe that DesignSpark V3 will be released before the end of the year with better Library support. At present the library support & AVR support is a little light on.
A complete Eagle + SparkfunEagle conversion for DesignSpark has already been done and exists on the net already as well.

Charles Darwin, Lord Kelvin & Murphy are always lurking about!
Lee -.-
Riddle me this...How did the serpent move around before the fall?

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It seems to be nice. I can say RayPCB could

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As a new user of PCB design tools I spent lots of time reading this entire thread. Wish I could say it made my initial selection of tools easier but it did not. Almost everyone seems to be used to a particular package and then are very disappointed when their old libraries will not import to something new. I understand that issue but as a new user I wanted to know the best package to start using.

So I ended up starting a design using TinyCAD for the schematic and FreePCB (and all the third party add-on utilities) for the PC board design. After completing the simple board and not being happy with either package in terms of feature integration, flexibility, and an up-to-date user interface I decided to try the free package that seemed to have the most up-to-date releases and active support forums. So I downloaded DesignSpark 3.0 and re-did the schematic, footprints, and PCB in that new environment.

Here's my assessment as a new user: While FreePCB must have been considered a solid design tool in its day, it is way far behind the implementation of DesignSpark 3.0. Without itemizing all the pluses--and there are many--anyone who is new to PCB design and looking for a solid tool for schematic capture and PCB design should give DesignSpark a try. Their integrated Library management and search works really well (for schematic, PCB, component, and 3D objects). Even the 3D view of the board assembly has been very useful--even when my initial take on that feature was that it would not be.

As a free package I'm very impressed with DesignSpark 3.0 so far. As to others who have suggested it is not intuitive I can't imagine how they feel it falls short in that regard. All I know is that compared to FreePCB, DesignSpark 3.0 is a 9/10 and FreePCB is a 4/10 on the intuitive scale for me.

Chris B.
(I have no stake in any tool vendors, I'm just an independent developer)

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Quote:
as a new user I wanted to know the best package to start using.
I used a BITUMEN package for my first PCBs, then moved onto DALO pens and progressed to black tape.

Upgraded to Red and Blue tape for double sided boards.

Then about 20 years ago I got Easytrax and then Autotrax for DOS. The 3D viewer was a bit slow with all the above packages and it took about a day or more after the boards were etched before it finished.

John Samperi

Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.

www.ampertronics.com.au

* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly

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Chris,

DesignSpark is based on Easy-PC, which has been around for many years:

http://www.numberone.com/

I was one of their first customers.

Leon Heller G1HSM

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Today. I came across www.fritzing.org , it's open source software and seems to be geared towards hobbyists with fairly small projects. Anybody here tried it?

$ Fixed link - JS $

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Online schematic drawing tool Scheme-it:
http://www.digikey.com/us/en/mkt/scheme-it.html

"Dare to be naïve." - Buckminster Fuller

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Seeing as Ultiboard isn't mentioned, this program definitely needs to be mentioned.

Adding parts is easy, finding footprints is easy, 3d-view (and making a 3d componenet is easy. The only thing is the price, I'm glad I get it for free through my school ;) Not cheap, but it blows (nearly) every option out of the water. Together with Multisim, it's a awesome package :)

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ExpressPCB users that aren't members of Yahoo's EspressPCB group might be interested to know a user has written a program that does some of the stuff ExpressPCB didn't do but should have.

His name is Marty Flick and he put a program called XGpcb in the group under Files/Tools. It compares the board with the schematic and reports errors. It will also do a DRC Check, and it will produce a Bill of Materials.

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ExpressPCB update. Marty Flick has a new enhanced version of his checker program. It's now called xCheck and it is now located here:
http://softwaregizmos.com/xcheck...

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I just finished a three-part treatment on DipTrace Pattern & Component editors, Schematic Layout tool and PCB Layout tool. First two also contain YouTube videos which show the applications in action:

http://codeandlife.com/2012/05/28/attiny2313-breadboard-header-with-diptrace/
http://codeandlife.com/2012/06/02/pcb-design-with-diptrace/
http://codeandlife.com/2012/07/07/diptrace-and-pcb-manufacture-with-olimex/

If the moderators consider the material worthy, it could maybe be appended to the DipTrace post.

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Howdy gchapman in FW. I clicked on schem-it and it loads right up. Guess its one of those 'cloud' apps. I was able to
immediately add diodes, Rs, Cs, gnd symbols.. I'm thinking this is great! Now how do I put an AVR on it? So I guess
this is where the user community starts adding parts to manufacturer libraries? The tienin with digikey is great. We already do that with altium dxp.
So basically, my question is: did I miss the IC library pulldown in the left hand menu, or is that bit still TBD?

Imagecraft compiler user

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AVR, add libraries - Scheme-it is good for what it does (small snippets of a design or a concept for communication; i.o.w. a common tool among two people). Otherwise Eagle, Kicad, etc. are usually more appropriate for a full design (have AVR and such, etc.). At least that's the way I use these tools.
IC library - seems the IC manufacturers have their own subset of a CAD tool or use a cloud app (schematic entry, simulation).

"Dare to be naïve." - Buckminster Fuller

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Just wanted to say:
I've experience with Express PCB, Eagle an Advance Circuits and Pad2Pad.
I'd have to say Pad2Pad seems like the best company to use of the three for easy boards with a fair amount of options, fair price and quick turn around.

I like how you can use pad2pad for colored thin boards you can cut apart with scissors where as with Express PCB the boards are very hard to cut apart.
Also with pad2pad you can get colored solder masking and silk screen any way you'd like.

The colors come out excellent! They even have controls to remove solder mask over custom designed copper pads, which is very cool an express PCB doesn't have this. You can control solder masking and copper planes any way you'd like.

Eagle is just annoyingly tough to finish a PCB you can be happy with..

I'd go with express PCB for ease of use and Pad2Pad for most options over eagle any day. Although eagle boards usually come out looking the best, you can do just about anything with pad2pad that you can do with eagle.and the interface is very similar to express PCB.

One thing I like about express PCB is they finally got in the option to add a ground plane throughout your board that makes things look a lot more professional and less noisy. They didn't used to have this option when I started using their service. I think a noob could draw a PCB with this program over night without any explanation from the experienced.

But Pad2Pad is more friendly for the frequent designer. Better options, still very easy to use free software. I have several years experience with both options an both are highly recommended for average Hobby use.

It seems like about $50USD will get you a run of tan no older mask no silk screen boards an about $100-$120 should buy you some decent space on some colored boards with silk screen.

It's very rare for me to spend more than $150 on a run of boards... and I usually have tons of boards laying around after for years.

Try to design with "flexibility" in mind. Stuff you can use for years. If your doing proprietary stuff, do as few boards as you need and purchase more later if needed. Too many proprietary boards laying around is no help.

Also, fill your empty board space up with different sized prototyping and "breadboard-like" PCB's. these always come in handy later... especially breakout component boards. These you can even sell on ebay if you have overrun.

Make sure you save your GOOD and FINISHED PCB files to disk for later use.
the robot in my avatar, I lost his PCB file yeas ago in a system format and would have to draw it all over again from scratch if I wanted more PCB's of that robot. :roll:
SAVE YOUR FINISHED PCB FILES TO EXTERNAL DISK!
Then email yourself a second copy for the "save" folder in your email box.

for cutting PCB's apart,
If you didn't get them routed but still want to tile a bunch of PCB's up on a board for cheap,
Go buy an expensive (+-$8USD) pair of good LARGE Fiskars scissors from Walmart , put on some leather gloves and some safety glasses and chop the PCB's apart yourself! You can even cut the very thick PCB's from express PCB in this manner with a bit of care.

Last piece of advice on designing circuit boards:
HAVE FUN!
Drawing up PCB's is my favorite part of my hobby of electronics! 8)

Here is SOME of the PCB's I have drawn..
I've even used it for mechanical designs like walking servo robots and ball bearing gearboxes.

(Right click and press view image to enlarge)

if (Learning_AVRs)
{
DOH();
}

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The thin boards sounds good but not good enough to go through the trouble to switch from ExpressPCB.

I almost always put multiple circuits on a board and cut them up. I used to use a hacksaw but I read the glass dust was bad for the lungs so now I score and snap. I always put a series of holes where I want to cut or snap, but maybe I'll try without the holes.

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I like KiCAD the best out of the ones I've used. I've made quite a few PCBs with it now.

Some things are a little odd at first, but they're all like that.

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Quote:
The thin boards sounds good but not good enough to go through the trouble to switch from ExpressPCB.

I almost always put multiple circuits on a board and cut them up. I used to use a hacksaw but I read the glass dust was bad for the lungs so now I score and snap. I always put a series of holes where I want to cut or snap, but maybe I'll try without the holes.

No, but control of solder mask is very much a great reason to go from express PCB to Pad 2 Pad. Thin boards actually can help where weight is concerned too. Some companies will do paper thin flexible boards!
Another good thing about Pad 2 Pad is they will route your PCB's for you or tab/score/tile them.

With the colors, routing/soring/tabs, thickness adjustments, solder mask controls and basically a similar interface that is easy to use, I have to give Pad 2 Pad the heads up.

Although Express PCB is a great service and I have used them many more times than Pad 2 Pad.

Really you can't go wrong either way.. depending on what you need done.

If you need to cut or sand PCB's at home, do so outside with full cover eye protection and breather mask, then wash off after you are done and you will be just fine. Been cutting these things up for years. Just have to be safe about it. :wink:

if (Learning_AVRs)
{
DOH();
}

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I often wonder if there are any autorouters which produce sensible results. Most don't even come close to how a human would route a board. I've never seen an autorouter routing a bus as it should be routed, with parallel tracks.

Anyway, I'm still using Eagle. But I've been planning to switch to KiCAD for quite some time. It's written in C++ using the wxWidgets library, which I also use for my open-source project and which I'm a fan of.

Building my dreams!

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pcbmaking.com would be the best option for printed circuit board. It designs professional PCB at cheaper price. You can place your order instantly and get free shipping. Its easy way to get your job done! Good luck!

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Adding more info on DipTrace:

Contrasting, several of the "free" PCB software packages only produce proprietary output files that lock you into a particular board manufacturer.

DipTrace does NOT do that. For the small price you pay to get it, it produces output that is fully portable and fully standardized.

The schematic tool works fine. It is not very high resolution, nor very sophisticated. However, it interacts with the layout program. You may also build your own libary parts, both the logical view and the physical view.

The physical view that you use from the library, or that you add to the library, links to the part used in the schematic. From the schematic, you can go to the board placement routine and set up the board physical paramters, then run autoplacement, and then autoroute.

I do not really have a basis for comparison for the autoroute, but the DipTrace offers a lot of options for autoroute, such as locking in certain traces that you lay in manually, setting the copper planes, enforcing boundary edge spacing, and a host of other things.

DipTrace has good support. I believe their team is in Ukraine. They respond quickly by email to answer questions. I had very good help during my learning curve.

Finally, the learning curve IS easy. I tried Eagle and found it to be too cryptic and time consuming. For an Eagle devotee, the CLI seems powerful. But to someone in a hurry, DipTrace is the way to go.

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hi every one ! i have a problem in designing PCB with proteus 8

i wanna put a DC power connector(like barrel dc power connector)! how can i do that?? i dont have any dc power connector in library!(also i wanna see that in visualizer mode)

so sorry i m a beginner :D

Last Edited: Thu. Sep 18, 2014 - 06:12 AM
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kevinas wrote:

hi every one ! i have a problem in designing PCB with proteus 8

i wanna put a DC power connector(like barrel dc power connector)! how can i do that?? i dont have any dc power connector in library!(also i wanna see that in visualizer)

so sorry i m a beginner :D

 

"so sorry" this isn't the support forum for Proteus 8. It is the forum for the Atmel range of microcontrollers. Perhaps you should ask for help from the makers of Proteus. Sorry.

 

Ross McKenzie ValuSoft Melbourne Australia

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Mouser Speeds Design with Launch of MultiSIM BLUE,
Powered by NI

New Design Tool Does it All: Scheme, Simulate, PCB Design & Layout, and BOM to Cart Purchase

October 2, 2014

http://www.mouser.com/publicrelationsmousermultisimblueseptlaunch2014final/

"Dare to be naïve." - Buckminster Fuller

Last Edited: Sun. Oct 5, 2014 - 09:26 PM
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Mouser's MultiSIM Blue: 775MB download.

 

You might want to use some connection besides your 4G.

274,207,281-1 The largest known Mersenne Prime

Measure twice, cry, go back to the hardware store

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sfcircuits wrote:
Orcad for schematic capture. (Orcad is made by Cadence)

OrCAD

Lite Overview

http://www.orcad.com/resources/orcad-lite-overview

OrCAD

Lite Limits

http://www.orcad.com/sites/default/files/resources/files/OrCAD-Lite-Limits_0.pdf (74kB)

via

ARRL (American Radio Relay League)

Circuit Simulation and Analysis

by Dr Saeid Moslehpour.

http://www.arrl.org/circuit-simulation

OrCAD Lite is nearly 1GB; via download or by DVD.

OrCAD might run on Linux:

WineHQ

Orcad 16.x

https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=18131

Data per the template:

URL: http://www.orcad.com/resources/orcad-downloads

Having issues with your download? Request a hard copy of the OrCAD 16.6 Lite DVD (link is external)

Price: zero for Lite.

Cost: address, e-mail address, telephone number.

Required OS: Microsoft Windows, possibly Linux by Wine.

Description: http://www.orcad.com/resources/orcad-lite-overview

Operator notes:

Useful links:

Attached:

 

"Dare to be naïve." - Buckminster Fuller

Last Edited: Sat. Oct 11, 2014 - 04:50 AM

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