NXP bought Freescale

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Heard it on Natnl Public Radio Mon on drive home.

 

Imagecraft compiler user

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John Samperi

Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.

www.ampertronics.com.au

* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly

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From the horror stories I have heard about LPCxpresso as well as Freescales CodeWarrior, does this mean they will merge the two and create a behemoth IDE thats worse to use than ASF?

 

 

Jim

If you want a career with a known path - become an undertaker. Dead people don't sue! - Kartman

Please Read: Code-of-Conduct

Atmel Studio6.2/AS7, DipTrace, Quartus, MPLAB user

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Codewarrior- yes it deserves its reputation. lpcxpresso - i had no complaints about it. It worked for me.
Freescale have kinetis design studio that is gcc and eclipse based. Seems to work ok for me. Ti ccs is much the same. Atmel studio is the odd one out for me being visual studio based.

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I don't think it's actually a done deal yet - is it?

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2... - "The companies expect the deal to close in the second half this year"

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This deal is bad for all of us.  Freescale is already dominating the arm vendor market, no reason they should be allowed to consolidate more.

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outer_space wrote:
Freescale is already dominating the arm vendor market

Really??

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Freescale is already dominating the arm vendor market

How do you figure?  While I do see their processors in the A/V controllers I program, I also see NXP, and Atmel, and ST.

 

 

JIm

If you want a career with a known path - become an undertaker. Dead people don't sue! - Kartman

Please Read: Code-of-Conduct

Atmel Studio6.2/AS7, DipTrace, Quartus, MPLAB user

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Freescale has the most variants, the best prices, and highest volume of all arm vendors although I'm not completely sure about that 3rd point.

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The price of chips just went up!

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outer_space wrote:
Freescale has the most variants, the best prices, and highest volume

Do you have figures for that?

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No

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Freescale has the most variants, the best prices,

So what?  Just because Automaker A has the most models and the best prices does not make them the dominant vendor.

 

highest volume of all arm vendors although I'm not completely sure about that 3rd point.

So then with no actual sales data, this:

Freescale is already dominating the arm vendor market,

is not really an accurate statement.

 

Jim

If you want a career with a known path - become an undertaker. Dead people don't sue! - Kartman

Please Read: Code-of-Conduct

Atmel Studio6.2/AS7, DipTrace, Quartus, MPLAB user

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So who is selling the most arm chips and the most versions of arm chips?

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jgmdesign wrote:

Freescale is already dominating the arm vendor market,

is not really an accurate statement.

It might turn out (if someone can find the data) that it does happen to be accurate but, as it stands, it is unsubstantiated.

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jgmdesign wrote:

Freescale has the most variants, the best prices,

So what?  Just because Automaker A has the most models and the best prices does not make them the dominant vendor.

 

highest volume of all arm vendors although I'm not completely sure about that 3rd point.

So then with no actual sales data, this:

Freescale is already dominating the arm vendor market,

is not really an accurate statement.

 

Jim

 

If you don't know either than your statement of my inaccuracy is at least as inaccurate.  

 

This chart surprisingly shows renesas with a wide lead over freescale and atmel at #3.  Since renesas doesn't make many arm chips that would imply freescale is the top arm vendor.

http://www.dataweek.co.za/articl...

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The chart I see in the link is from 2008, and has Atmel at #9.  Based on the figures I can see with Freescale and Motorola combined, they still stay at number two behind Renesas.

 

If you don't know either than your statement of my inaccuracy is at least as inaccurate.  

I did not know, I based my observation on your information.  Either way, it's not going to change the price of tea in China.

 

Speaking of Tea....Time to go fire up the Keurig.

 

Jim

If you want a career with a known path - become an undertaker. Dead people don't sue! - Kartman

Please Read: Code-of-Conduct

Atmel Studio6.2/AS7, DipTrace, Quartus, MPLAB user

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So far this 2008 info is the best info in this thread!  My business fact researching skills are not as good as my electronic skills.

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outer_space wrote:

This chart surprisingly shows renesas with a wide lead over freescale and atmel at #3.  Since renesas doesn't make many arm chips that would imply freescale is the top arm vendor.

http://www.dataweek.co.za/article.aspx?pklarticleid=5625

Err ... that chart is about MCUs in general - nothing about ARM specifically?

 

 

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The Spin-releases claim the combined will be #1 in Automotive MCUs, but there is a LOT of overlap, and I can see long term cannibalize going down.

What may save them, is the Geography and time-lines: Freescale being USA centric and Automotive having very long design cycles.

 

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My business fact researching skills are not as good as my electronic skills.

We could probably get most of what we want here by simply purchasing a $10,000 Gartner report.

 

SEC financial filings don't break down semiconductor revenue nearly as much as other annual reports.  And it is very hard to decide what the correct answer to "most ARM chips".  When I think of ARM when I'm here at 'Freaks, I'm thinking Cortex/"microcontroller".  One cell phone design-in could well be millions of higher-end ARM.

 

Does quantity matter?  Then you'll probably need to subscribe to one of the market reports.  Revenue?  Now there we can at least get a glimpse.

 

Atmel "Microcontroller" segment, 2013, US$0.95B

 

NXP "SP" segment, 2013, US$1.2B 

 

 

"SP" Standard Products includes

 

Next to discrete semiconductors, the Standard Products segment also includes Standard Logic ICs. We have a number 2 position in Standard Logic IC
markets based on worldwide revenue for 2012 1

 

 

A couple of interesting excerpts from NXP documents:

 

(no mention of Microchip in the list below?)

 

Our key competitors in alphabetical order include Analog Devices Inc., Atmel Corporation, Entropic Communications Inc., Fairchild Semiconductors
International Inc., Freescale, Infineon, International Rectifier Corporation, Linear Technology Corporation, Maxim Integrated Products, Inc., MaxLinear,
Renesas, ON Semiconductor Corporation, Power Integrations Inc., ROHM Co., Ltd., Silicon Laboratories Inc., STMicroelectronics and Texas Instruments
Incorporated.

 

What is an "8-bit ARM"? ;)

 

Our ARM Cortex M0-
based products achieve pricing levels that places it squarely in competition with 8-bit microcontrollers, while offering better performance in terms of
processing speed and system power consumption, expanding the addressable market for 32-bit ARM microcontrollers at the expense of 8-bit ARM
microcontrollers.

 

 

Freescale has about the same "Microcontroller" revenue as Atmel and NXP.  Again, what is put into the bucket as Freescale has over $1B in "Automotive MCU":

 

 

You can repeat the above using 10-K forms for any company publicly traded in the US.  For reference, Microchip (which isn't into Cortex?) chart below--microcontroller segment about the same size as the numbers posted above for Atmel, NXP, and Freescale:

 

 

 

 

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

I've never met a pig I didn't like, as long as you have some salt and pepper.

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ST Micro 20-F:

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

I've never met a pig I didn't like, as long as you have some salt and pepper.

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theusch wrote:

What is an "8-bit ARM"? ;)

Our ARM Cortex M0-
based products achieve pricing levels that places it squarely in competition with 8-bit microcontrollers, while offering better performance in terms of
processing speed and system power consumption, expanding the addressable market for 32-bit ARM microcontrollers at the expense of 8-bit ARM
microcontrollers.

 

hehe, well spotted :)

NXP took a gamble going away from 8-bit, and now they have Freescale, they are back in the 8 bit arena, which has to worry those using Freescale 8-bitters.

Microchip & Atmel seem to still be doing very well in 8 bit, and SiLabs have just shaken things up a little with a 21c(10k) part with 12b ADC (!)

- there are plenty of low pin count apps, where an ARM is not really the right choice, no matter what some marketing head wants to pitch.

 

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outer_space wrote:

This chart surprisingly shows renesas with a wide lead over freescale and atmel at #3.  Since renesas doesn't make many arm chips that would imply freescale is the top arm vendor.

http://www.dataweek.co.za/article.aspx?pklarticleid=5625

 

Err, no, Freescale are quite late to the ARM party, they have decades of 'other cores' of sales / design wins.

It can take years for new CPUs to get enough design wins to generate real revenue.

 

Interesting to see in that 2008 chart, the small figure next to NXP, vs Freescale, and now Freescale are smaller and NXP much larger, so much, they have swallowed Freescale.

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Who-me wrote:
Freescale are quite late to the ARM party, they have decades of 'other cores' of sales / design wins.

Yes, that's what I though - hence my questioning the unsubstantiated assertion.

 

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A freescale rep told me they are trying to price people away from using hc08s and to use kinetis instead.  Freescale is admitting defeat on 8bits and are coming out with small arms to compete directly with their own and other low end 8bit parts.

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outer_space wrote:
Freescale is admitting defeat on 8bits and are coming out with small arms to compete directly with their own and other low end 8bit parts.

An ideal match for NXP, then!

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outer_space wrote:

A freescale rep told me they are trying to price people away from using hc08s and to use kinetis instead.  Freescale is admitting defeat on 8bits and are coming out with small arms to compete directly with their own and other low end 8bit parts.

 

Reps will say anything... :)

If you scratch the surface, Freescale are struggling there, as they lacked any wide Vcc parts in ARM, and only very recently added a 2.7-5V series. - Which has to compete with 1.8~5.5V 8 bit parts from Atmel and Microchip et al.

Infineon have ARMs in 1.8~5.5V

 

Next the claims of '8 bit prices' often also are more illusion than reality.

Cypress have a 'low cost' PSoC4, but it is lobotomised with almost no peripherals at all, just there for a marketing bullet.

Freescales smallest ARM I can see, pitched for 8 bit replacement, is over 2x the price of SiLabs smallest 8 bit, so that 8-bit price claim struggles in daylight.

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'Small arms' - there was a company in Birmingham that did those......

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So what will it be called:

 

NXPScale ?

 

FreeNXP ?

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YAAC?

Imagecraft compiler user

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YAAC?

?????? indecision

 

Jim

If you want a career with a known path - become an undertaker. Dead people don't sue! - Kartman

Please Read: Code-of-Conduct

Atmel Studio6.2/AS7, DipTrace, Quartus, MPLAB user

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"Yet Another Arm Company"

 

Imagecraft compiler user

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"Exmotophil"

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awneil wrote:

"Exmotophil"

 

LOL,  thanks I needed a good laugh!

 

 

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From the horror stories I have heard about LPCxpresso

What horror stories? It works on my computer which is more that I can say for another, unnamed IDE.  cheeky

 

ANYWAY!! NEVER EVER USE Freescale chips unless you are a HUGE company that can demand they make the chips you want.

John Samperi

Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.

www.ampertronics.com.au

* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly

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NEVER EVER USE Freescale chips unless you are a HUGE company

My impression is that they've done "better" in that area recently.  Not so?

 

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westfw wrote:

NEVER EVER USE Freescale chips unless you are a HUGE company

My impression is that they've done "better" in that area recently.  Not so?

 

"Better" than what ? 

 Freescale are not renowned for the life cycles of their parts, and I'd say Freescale users have just got a little more worried with this news.

 Those savings the shareholders are promised, just might involve the chip they have had designed in for years ....

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awneil wrote:

 

outer_space wrote:

Freescale is already dominating the arm vendor market

 

Really??

 

 

Really?

 

NXP did this to go after the automobile electronics market in a bigger way.

Not the consumer gadget market.

 

we'll see.

 

ST M4's have top billing in my ARM rank, for mid-range ARMs (which isn't Atmel's focus).

 

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stevech wrote:
ST M4's have top billing in my ARM rank, for mid-range ARMs (which isn't Atmel's focus).

Do you think they are better than NXPs M4 offerings for mid-range ARMs (which isn't Atmel's focus)? wink

"When you arise in the morning think of what a privilege it is to be alive: to breathe, to think, to enjoy, to love." - Marcus Aurelius               

Last Edited: Thu. Mar 5, 2015 - 06:42 AM
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they've done "better" in that area recently.  Not so?

Don't know, don't care, don't want to know. smiley Freescale has been dead for me for many years now, bitten once twenty times shy.

John Samperi

Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.

www.ampertronics.com.au

* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly

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Freescale has been dead for me for many years now, bitten once twenty times shy.

To some extent (perhaps with more limited experience) I tend to agree.  We've been bitten on several 8-bit Moto apps, where the designed-in model just disappears, the replacement model requires a board re-layout and often firmware jiggerring, and the programming tool for the newer series sets one back a few K$.

 

With no Freescale micro design-ins I don't know what the current state is.

 

One can poke at Atmel and AVR8, but still--one can use the same boards as 15 years ago, '2313 and '4433 and '8535 and '103 apps with newer generations of replacement models, at lower cost and lower power consumption and more features, and with generally minimal firmware changes.

 

==========================

ST M4's have top billing in my ARM rank, for mid-range ARMs (which isn't Atmel's focus).

Now we've gotten back to "Freescale is already dominating the arm vendor market..." and ensuing discussion.  It is anybody's guess about "most units shipped".  And that has always been an interesting figure in itself.  A few multi-million apps can skew that number upwards, while another vendor might have many more production "design wins".

 

As I mentioned earlier, here on 'Freaks I think of the ARM discussion in terms of CortexM nowadays.  (Before Cortex the ARM7TDMI models were the first that felt like "microcontrollers" to me.)  Some might put M0 and M4 apps in different buckets; others might lump all M together.

 

Does units-shipped make one vendor's e.g. M0+ better than other vendors?  Perhaps one of the "fringe players" has a model that might suit the app better and be the "best" decision.  I don't know.

 

 

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

I've never met a pig I didn't like, as long as you have some salt and pepper.

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westfw wrote:

NEVER EVER USE Freescale chips unless you are a HUGE company

My impression is that they've done "better" in that area recently.  Not so?

 

 

Freescale has fixed the main reason why I loathed them, that their toolchain was expensive, crashy, and windows-only.  Now its free, stable, cross platform, and uses eclipse/gcc.  They still have customer service issues where they don't give a damn about you unless you are buying millions of chips.  For instance, they have a 3 phase motor dev kit but only supply a demo in the form of closed source libs.  They won't let you see the code and promise that it is highly optimised.  On the one hand they say they can't let me see it because it has proprietary algorithms.  On the other hand they say I don't need to see it because it is just standard math you can find in a textbook.  I highly doubt it is optimized because stepping thru their multiply wrapper executes like 50 lines of asm when 32bit multiply could happen in 1 instruction.  I think they would supply this code to their clients that they like.  How can an engineer be responsible for motor code that could injure or kill someone when freescale won't share how that code works?

 

I work in a freescale shop but I hear talk about switching to another vendor due to the way their support treats us.  They pretty much only answer support tickets if they are easy to answer and ignore complicated issues.  Then when you complain to your rep you get a flurry of unhelpful responses to some of your tickets and then silence again.

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Freescale has fixed the main reason why I loathed them,

Doesn't matter anymore surprise It's the same for Commonwealth Bank, Westpac bank, Telstra, AGL and some other companies here. DEAD BRANDS FOREVER! Even if they change names.

 

It's a Sicilian thing, you may not understand.... devil

John Samperi

Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.

www.ampertronics.com.au

* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly

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It's a Sicilian thing, you may not understand....

 

"Fredo, you're nothing to me now; not a brother, not a friend. I don't want to know you, or what you do."

Michael to Fredo (GodfatherII)

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

I've never met a pig I didn't like, as long as you have some salt and pepper.

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Enough of the Freescale bashing! Many of us got bit by the hc11 crisis of the 90's but thing are a bit different now - most of the ARM based stuff is subbed out to foundaries. The cost of jumping ship to another vendor is less expensive if your code is not written in a vendor specific language.
Poor Freescale wasnt turning a profit, so they got gobbled up. Atmel nearly did by Brand X. The market is changing and consolidating.

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Atmel nearly did by Brand X.

Or vice-versa, IIRC. ;)

 

Poor Freescale wasnt turning a profit, so they got gobbled up

Or at least till recently...