Future of XMEGA

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And the same points for the MCU with built-in FRAM.

Would like to see MCU with eMRAM (Embedded MRAM); has some significant advantages over FRAM though reduction of current is not one.

"Dare to be naïve." - Buckminster Fuller

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Who-me wrote:
AVR's have no internal regulator, ...
The exception to that are the RF AVR (1.8V core).

"Dare to be naïve." - Buckminster Fuller

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gchapman wrote:

An alternative are some of the Texas Instruments MSP430 at double the XMEGA384C3 32KB SRAM.

 

I did look at those, but we had some bad experiences with another company's modules that used them. Kept corrupting their own memories. Texas acknowledge it on their forums but don't offer any real solution, other than use another part. Plus, their IDE sucks.

 

[quote]There are recent free third-party builds of XC16.

 

I'll look into that, thanks. Seems a bit rubbish to use GCC, but then be dicks by charging for the optimization. It's allowed by the GPL, just not a very nice thing to do. Doesn't exactly encourage people to use their parts either, since if you want any commercial support I bet they will tell you to try the commercial compiler. You could argue it's a small cost for a company, but then why bother collecting small amounts of money in the first place?

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joeymorin wrote:
Possibly much lower.  That is implied by the subthreshold design.
Texas Instruments has an MSP430 that can operate through the entire life of a 1.2V cell (small SRAM, ROM bootloader).

http://www.ti.com/lsds/ti/microcontrollers_16-bit_32-bit/msp/ultra-low_power/msp430l09x_low_voltage/overview.page

 

"Dare to be naïve." - Buckminster Fuller

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joeymorin wrote:

30µA/MHz.  Holy smokes.

 

Yeah, but there are caveats. For example, in one product I worked on we need to log data for an hour a data. Logging involves taking 100 samples per second and doing a bit of averaging. We need a ~16 bit ADC to get the dynamic range we require.

 

The solution was to use an XMEGA. It runs at 250kHz, waking up 100 times a second from a low power mode. When awake it turns on the ADC, takes 8 readings (idling while the ADC works), averages them and stores the result as 1 sample. After one second it does some rectification/averaging over the 100 samples. Although the XMEGA ADC is only 12 bit, we use the PGA to increase the dynamic range it can measure over.

 

What this boils down to use <2mA average current over the measurement period. We tried something similar with ARM but it just isn't as efficient when it comes to peripherals and idling, so you can't get near that performance. ARM is great if you need to do more processing of the data, but to get really low power you have to find ways of minimizing that.

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mojo-chan wrote:
We need a ~16 bit ADC to get the dynamic range we require.

...

Although the XMEGA ADC is only 12 bit, we use the PGA to increase the dynamic range it can measure over.

XMEGA E has a 16-bit mode for its 12-bit SAR ADC by oversampling and decimation with just enough noise (by ADC reference?  by inherent noise?  injected as in UC3L ADC?).

Some of the better characteristics of analog by CMOS are more easily obtained by larger process geometries (the "old" fab) and more easily operated by use of a battery (coin cell, super cap, MLCC, etc.).

 

"Dare to be naïve." - Buckminster Fuller

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Indeed, if the E5 had been out at the time we would have considered it. Using the automatic 16 bit mode and idling we could probably push the average current down even lower. I should mention that is current from a 3.6V lithium cell. We run the MCU at 2.7V via a Texas LDO with 0.5uA quiescent current. 2.7 is as low as we could go due to the requirements of other parts, and also because with the 0.6V overhead of the ADC it makes a 2.048V reference possible.

 

That is the sort of thing I'm hoping to see in future. 16 bit mode on the larger devices, USB on the E series, expansion of the custom logic. The enhanced DMA on the E5 is nice too, ideal for handling input from devices like GPS receivers.

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What was(and also still is) always question to me is this, Why ARM-based MCUs and XMEGA series are not available in DIP package?(Just saw that NXP has two ARM-based MCUs which is available in DIP package) while you can find some DsPICs which are available in DIP package.

"One's value is inherent; money is not inherent"

 

Chuck, you are in my heart!

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Some dsPICs, PIC24s and PIC32s are available in DIP.

Leon Heller G1HSM

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Rohalamin wrote:
Why ARM-based MCUs and XMEGA series are not available in DIP package?

NXP do an 8pin LPC800 in DIP. It's M0+.

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If you only need the dynamic range, why not use a LOG ADC or opamp?

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Yes,  and the LPC800 is pretty useless too.

 

If you want to do some prototyping,  an ARM evaluation board is practical.   They even have onboard JTAG/SWD.

The Xmega Xplained boards are quite good but cannot compete with a $10 NUCLEO.

 

It is a pity that we do not have an Xmega Arduino.   Then we would have Chinese clone boards.   And the Xmega would become a hobbyist target.

 

David.

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Maybe you should whisper in Massimo's ear David... cheeky

Ross McKenzie ValuSoft Melbourne Australia

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Rohalamin wrote:

...Why ARM-based MCUs and XMEGA series are not available in DIP package?...

 

The target market does not need them in DIP so there is no point on doing it.

'This forum helps those who help themselves.'

 

pragmatic  adjective dealing with things sensibly and realistically in a way that is based on practical rather than theoretical consideration.

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sparrow2 wrote:

If you only need the dynamic range, why not use a LOG ADC or opamp?

 

Cost, board space. The old product used two log amps and a load of other analogue stuff, we eliminated it all by going to fully digital processing and massively reduced power consumption at the same time.

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valusoft wrote:

Maybe you should whisper in Massimo's ear David... cheeky

 

I would not dare.   He might throw his rattle out of the pram.

 

I have a 32A4U module from Batsocks.

Looking on Ebay,  there are similar DIL modules from Barion and MattairTech.

 

Nothing like the sheer range of Mega and ARM dev boards that are available.

 

From a GPIO point of view,  the Xmega can compete for peripherals and speed with all the ARM Cortex.   Obviously,   if there is computation to be done,   the 32-bit ARM wins.

 

David.

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mojo-chan wrote:
What this boils down to use <2mA average current over the measurement period. We tried something similar with ARM but it just isn't as efficient when it comes to peripherals and idling, so you can't get near that performance.
It sounds like the Apollo wasn't around at the time.  2 mA is more than 3 times the maximum draw of the Apollo running full-bore at 20 MHz.  If you were to run it at 250 kHz the draw from the core would be < 10 uA.

 

The draw from the ADC, on the other hand:

 

"Experience is what enables you to recognise a mistake the second time you make it."

"Good judgement comes from experience.  Experience comes from bad judgement."

"When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not unicorns."

"Fast.  Cheap.  Good.  Pick two."

"Read a lot.  Write a lot."

"We see a lot of arses on handlebars around here." - [J Ekdahl]

 

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david.prentice wrote:
Yes, and the LPC800 is pretty useless too.

More or less useless than an 8pin DIP packaged AVR Tiny?

 

Obviously there is only so much you can do with 8 pins but one of the nice things about the LPC800 is that you can choose amongst it's range of peripherals within the chip and decide what ones you want to use and how you want them wired to the pins (with certain limits)

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joeymorin wrote:

 

 

"Average run current", LOL. That's datasheet weasel words for "absolute lowest possible value you will ever see under very specific test conditions."

 

Sadly we can't compare it to XMEGA, because the datasheet only gives us a value of 1.6mA at 3.0V and 250ksps. At least it is specific about the test conditions.

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"Average run current", LOL. That's datasheet weasel words for "absolute lowest possible value you will ever see under very specific test conditions."

More like "These are engineering samples".  Like all parts, they will be properly characterised over time.  Have a look at any of the first-run XMEGA datasheets and you'll the same kind of thing.

"Experience is what enables you to recognise a mistake the second time you make it."

"Good judgement comes from experience.  Experience comes from bad judgement."

"When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not unicorns."

"Fast.  Cheap.  Good.  Pick two."

"Read a lot.  Write a lot."

"We see a lot of arses on handlebars around here." - [J Ekdahl]

 

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Yep, which is why you can't rely on those numbers at all. It just says "1", without even a decimal point, so I wouldn't rush to design it in to a product on that basis just yet.

 

Anyway, it also depends what the overhead is like. What sleep modes you can use, how long it takes to wake up, how long it takes to process, how fast you need to run the core to hit your target sample rate etc. That's where being 32 bit tends to be more of a hindrance than a help.

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clawson wrote:

NXP do an 8pin LPC800 in DIP. It's M0+.

Yes Cliff and I said it.

And also it has two as I said.

An 8pin

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/NXP-Semiconductors/LPC810M021FN8FP/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMuI9neUTtPr71gwZPXalj9euchRBPQ354c%3d

And a 28(32?)pin

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/NXP-Semiconductors/LPC1114FN28-10212/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMuI9neUTtPr7%252b9f8GoEE%252brS49qrpaDLe0Y%3d

And bear in mind that there are JUst two DIP packaged ARM MCUs.

david.prentice wrote:

Yes,  and the LPC800 is pretty useless too.

...

Agree

david.prentice wrote:

...

If you want to do some prototyping,  an ARM evaluation board is practical.   They even have onboard JTAG/SWD.

The Xmega Xplained boards are quite good but cannot compete with a $10 NUCLEO.

...

Yes but when you want to use an MCU with DIP package, you don't need any board. just put it on breadboard and program/debug it.

david.prentice wrote:

...

It is a pity that we do not have an Xmega Arduino.   Then we would have Chinese clone boards.   And the Xmega would become a hobbyist target.

Good point. really why?

Brian Fairchild wrote:

The target market does not need them in DIP so there is no point on doing it.

What target Brian?

About 1/5 years ago I was chatting with a friend from Italy(in StackExechange). he was a student(Master degree) who was studying in Pisa university. he and his friends were working on a project to make a famous Robot. I asked him"Do you use Microchip MCUs?"

"Yes" he answered.

Again I asked "What sort of packages do you use?"

"As possible as DIP" he answerd.

I asked "Why?"

He said "because the MCUs in this package are easy to use"

This is his profile: http://electronics.stackexchange.com/users/16993/vladimir-cravero

I guess a lot of hobbyists,amateurs and other non-professionals(or maybe even professionals) prefer to use DIP package.

While SMD packages are cheaper but still some people or some companies prefer to use DIP. we have a SuperGeneral split air conditioner at home. this summer when we opened it to service(wash) it, I found out it has an NEC MCU in DIP package.(I don't know why everything I open, it has an NEC MCU. it looks like this company has been successful to pre-empt the market of MCUs)

"One's value is inherent; money is not inherent"

 

Chuck, you are in my heart!

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Rohalamin wrote:

What target Brian?

 

Low-technology consumer products, like air conditioners, still use DIP because it is cheaper than SMT, especially on low component count boards. High-volume high-technology consumer products, like set-top boxes uses SMT because it is cheaper than DIP in high-volume assembly (and often the chips used just won't fit in DIP).

 

The xMegas, even in volume, aren't a cheap chip and so will never be used in those low-volume low-technology products, therefore a DIP package is not required.

 

For companies developing products which will end up needing SMT assembly the additional cost of prototyping in SMT is not an issue.

'This forum helps those who help themselves.'

 

pragmatic  adjective dealing with things sensibly and realistically in a way that is based on practical rather than theoretical consideration.

Last Edited: Thu. Feb 4, 2016 - 06:49 PM
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Rohalamin wrote:

What was(and also still is) always question to me is this, Why ARM-based MCUs and XMEGA series are not available in DIP package?(Just saw that NXP has two ARM-based MCUs which is available in DIP package) while you can find some DsPICs which are available in DIP package.

If you believe there is a market, buy Known Good Die, and package some yourself.

There is a reason the big players side-step DIP: the numbers simply fail to stack up, and volume users do not need them.

 

What I have noticed, is a move driven from Asia, to coarser pitch SMD, and that is driven by Wave Soldering.

QFN and 0.5mm parts cannot wave solder, but 1.27mm parts easily can, and it seems 0.8mm also can, with experience.

 

That is the 'new dip' -> Wave Solder-able Gull wing.

 

Fortunately for hobbyists, a part that is Wave Solder-able, is also not too hard to manually solder or design to.

 

Some vendors offer 64 pin MCUs in 0.5mm and 0.8mm pitch, and I see recently a SOPN20 (from Asia) that is SO16N plastic mold,(150 mil wide) with 0.8mm leads - a nice looking package, I hope catches on.

 

Rohalamin wrote:

While SMD packages are cheaper but still some people or some companies prefer to use DIP. we have a SuperGeneral split air conditioner at home. this summer when we opened it to service(wash) it, I found out it has an NEC MCU in DIP package.

See above - was this wave soldered PCB ? They did not 'prefer' DIP.

Last Edited: Thu. Feb 4, 2016 - 07:22 PM
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Brian Fairchild wrote:

 

The xMegas, even in volume, aren't a cheap chip and so will never be used in those low-volume low-technology products, therefore a DIP package is not required.

 

 

Why would xmega be too expensive for a low-volume product? A low-volume product will be expensive and paying a dollar more for each MCU is not going to change anything.

 

I used to hate when DIP was not available, but now I hate to use any through hole components. I guess I was just worried about my soldering skills, which aren't good, but I can manage to solder SMT, even quite small. For the first SMT parts I used I soldered wires to each leg/pad and used breadboard. Now I always make a PCB, which is cheap. Still worried about the possible next step to BGA etc. I have already used DFN.

 

Does any new design use DIP?

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Brian Fairchild wrote:

For companies developing products which will end up needing SMT assembly the additional cost of prototyping in SMT is not an issue.

I'm not sure there is even really any "additional cost of prototyping in SMT"

First evaluation can be done 95% of the time using a low-cost development board(s), and SMT pilot runs will always be needed.

 

jmaja1 wrote:

Does any new design use DIP?

Not that I have seen, where a wave solder-able alternative exists.

 

Last Edited: Thu. Feb 4, 2016 - 07:53 PM
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Who-me wrote:

Brian Fairchild wrote:

Does any new design use DIP?

 

No I didn't wink

'This forum helps those who help themselves.'

 

pragmatic  adjective dealing with things sensibly and realistically in a way that is based on practical rather than theoretical consideration.

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jmaja1 wrote:

Why would xmega be too expensive for a low-volume product? A low-volume product will be expensive...

 

I said 'low-volume consumer product, which will be a higher volume compared to low-volume professional products. So I class things like air-conditioners as low-volume because compared to things like mobile phones, or laptops, they are.

'This forum helps those who help themselves.'

 

pragmatic  adjective dealing with things sensibly and realistically in a way that is based on practical rather than theoretical consideration.

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Brian Fairchild wrote:

No I didn't wink

 

Oops - now fixed.

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More or less useless than an 8pin DIP packaged AVR Tiny?

More "useless" when 2 pins are taken out for SWD instead of 1 pin for DW.

John Samperi

Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.

www.ampertronics.com.au

* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly

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Brian Fairchild wrote:

jmaja1 wrote:

Why would xmega be too expensive for a low-volume product? A low-volume product will be expensive...

 

I said 'low-volume consumer product, which will be a higher volume compared to low-volume professional products. So I class things like air-conditioners as low-volume because compared to things like mobile phones, or laptops, they are.

 

So an air condiotioner costs several hundreds, it's big and has quite expensive mechanical components. Would spending one dollar for MCU really be too much? I can understan that for many cheap things like remote controllers, bicycle computers etc. I would guess finding DIP parts from an air condiotioner just means it is an old desing they didn't want to update.

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jmaja1 wrote:

 I would guess finding DIP parts from an air condiotioner just means it is an old desing they didn't want to update.

 Possibly that, or, it could mean it is wave soldered, with many other thru hole parts, and that suits their production flow.

White Goods still use thru-hole, but they use SMD wherever they can, to keep size and costs down.

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Interesting discussion.

 

I have a new clothes washer.  It costs several hundred dollars!

It has lots of LEDs, and dials, and switches.

It looks like the cockpit for an airplane.

 

And the primary display for the user is still not directly human readable!

 

Just a little while ago I walked past the machine and it looked like a "u" but the vertical parts were only 1/2 of a segment high, (i.e. 1/4 of the height of the side of an "8"), and it had an "L" next to it.

Perhaps it means "UnLoad", i.e. its done washing?

 

I don't know.

 

I just think its ridiculous to spend hundreds of dollars and have a worthless display for a consumer item.

 

A simple LED flashing next a label that says DONE would be easier to understand, and cost less, and be more meaningful.

 

Either add the "extra" segments to the display, or remove the display.

 

Argh...

 

Where is that Thread on frustration, maybe I should go co-post!

 

JC

Last Edited: Thu. Feb 4, 2016 - 10:19 PM
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Although this is all rampant speculation, I personally would/will not mourn the passing of the XMeagre(tm).  I have used the Mega series, and the XMeagre chips. For me, the XMeagre is a falling between two stools. It is slightly better than the Mega series(although the counter timer functionallity is crippled), but it's hard to understand why anyone wouldn't jump straight into the arms of an ARM. Having said that, you have my sympathy if you are currently using or specifying an XMeagre, and you are worried about continuity.

 

Quebracho seems to be the hardest wood.

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All a matter of perspective, I guess.

 

The vast majority of my work is hobbyist projects, and even the occasional for-hire project is usually one-off, or just several of a board.

 

But, the XmegaE series is my goto chip these days, instead of a Mega.

 

Oh well, time will tell.

 

JC

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Rohalamin wrote:
Why ARM-based MCUs and XMEGA series are not available in DIP package?

  • Impedance - Increased inductance is not recommended with short rise/fall-time.
  • Sizing

The XMEGA A4U default I/O rise/fall-time is 4ns and the AVR32 UC3 reduced that (to about 2ns); that is significant and an EMI/EMC concern.

A follow-on to XMEGA is SAM L, but SAM L does not have the drive that an XMEGA does (iow SAM L has an increased rise/fall-time versus XMEGA).

The customer likes your proof-of-concept or first prototype but then says it's too large.

"Dare to be naïve." - Buckminster Fuller

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david.prentice wrote:
I have a 32A4U module from Batsocks.

Looking on Ebay,  there are similar DIL modules from Barion and MattairTech.

 

Nothing like the sheer range of Mega and ARM dev boards that are available.

Another source is Mcuzone on Aliexpress; almost totally XMEGA.

Shop Cheap AVR Development Kit from China AVR Development Kit Suppliers at Hangzhou ARMe Electronic Co., Ltd. on Aliexpress.com

AVR Development Kit

http://www.aliexpress.com/store/group/AVR-Development-Kit/800571_209680125.html

"Dare to be naïve." - Buckminster Fuller

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Rohalamin wrote:
(I don't know why everything I open, it has an NEC MCU. it looks like this company has been successful to pre-empt the market of MCUs)
The follow-on to NEC is Renesas and they're HUGE in the MCU field.

Renesas

Renesas Fact Sheet

http://am.renesas.com/media/comp/RenesasFactSheet.pdf

...

... as part of an agreement to integrate the business operations of NEC Electronics Corporation and Renesas Technology Corp,

...

"Dare to be naïve." - Buckminster Fuller

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jmaja1 wrote:
So an air condiotioner costs several hundreds, it's big and has quite expensive mechanical components. Would spending one dollar for MCU really be too much?

What on earth are you talking about? It doesn't matter who you are and what you are making a dollar is a dollar. It's either yours or you give it away. You don't get rich giving them away.

 

I've worked for a company where a typical production run was 1..5 million units. Even our chairman used to have arguments with us about whether we really needed some $0.10 capacitor or would a $0.05 one be OK. (5 million times $0.05 is $250,000). For the same reason the front panel PCBs of our products were single sided PCB and used DIP packaged components to reduce the cost per square inch by a few cents per unit.

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+1

I have been in a situation where it was OK to spend 1-2 weeks on a software solution that would save about 0.02$ in components. (and it ended up with some inline 8051 ASM, this was about 20 years ago).

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clawson wrote:

jmaja1 wrote:
So an air condiotioner costs several hundreds, it's big and has quite expensive mechanical components. Would spending one dollar for MCU really be too much?

What on earth are you talking about? It doesn't matter who you are and what you are making a dollar is a dollar. It's either yours or you give it away. You don't get rich giving them away.

 

I've worked for a company where a typical production run was 1..5 million units. Even our chairman used to have arguments with us about whether we really needed some $0.10 capacitor or would a $0.05 one be OK. (5 million times $0.05 is $250,000). For the same reason the front panel PCBs of our products were single sided PCB and used DIP packaged components to reduce the cost per square inch by a few cents per unit.

 

xmega costs less than a dollar for that big series. How much is a cheaper MCU? Does it use the same external components? Couldn't xmega offer something that is worth the extra cost like USB or maybe less man hours for design. I'm not saying that they don't care about a dollar cost in an more expensive product, I'm just saying it can well be used, if it has something more to offer. If you are targetting at well below 10 dollar total production cost for a unit, you simply can't use any 1 dollar components.

 

Is it cheaper to produce single sided DIP than single sided SMD?

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jmaja1 wrote:

Is it cheaper to produce single sided DIP than single sided SMD?

 

Depends if all components are through hole, or smd or mixed and where you have the assembly done, components sourced and more importantly the quantities involved. It is not any easy question to answer without a lot of details.

Ross McKenzie ValuSoft Melbourne Australia

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 And often for high volume products size and shape matter. (sometimes shape matter the most "so we can hide it in this hole") 

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sparrow2 wrote:

 And often for high volume products size and shape matter. (sometimes shape matter the most "so we can hide it in this hole") 

 

This part of the discussion started from low volume consumer products. I don't know if 1-5 million can be seen as a low volume. Are air condiotioners typically made in that range?

 

So what is considered high volume? Mobile phones are made in the order of 10-100 million in the lifespan of a model. So 10 million must be high volume? What about 1 million?

 

When size matters, DIP is out of the question.

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That is why I say that shape matter, for an air conditioner you need push buttons and a display (at least 7 segments) and for that there are needed a big PCB for design reasons, so you just put the cheapest components on.

 

so here size matter, DIP are fine :)  

 

 

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jmaja1 wrote:

So an air condiotioner costs several hundreds, it's big and has quite expensive mechanical components. Would spending one dollar for MCU really be too much?

Adding $1 to the manufacturing cost of a consumer item can add anywhere between $10 and $50 to the consumer price tag.  In a market where there are multiple competing products vying for a piece of the consumer pie, a $10 difference on a ~$400 air-conditioner can make the difference between selling 1000 units per season and selling 50,000 units per season, or far more.  In extreme cases, it can make the difference between selling enough to make a profit, or not selling enough to recoup your investment.  Failed product.  End of life.

 

There are many factors which come into play to determine what will be a profitable consumer product.  Almost all of them have to do with the consumer.  Almost none of them have to do with satisfying an engineer's sense of balance or beauty.  Save a dollar on the mcu, that dollar can be used to position the product at a more attractive price point, or it can be spent on a sleeker-looking front panel, or a better-quality paint finish, to attract a different 'class' of consumer.  It's all a bean-counting balancing act which, frankly, I thank my cotton socks every day I have no involvement in.

"Experience is what enables you to recognise a mistake the second time you make it."

"Good judgement comes from experience.  Experience comes from bad judgement."

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Last Edited: Fri. Feb 5, 2016 - 02:57 PM
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joeymorin wrote:

Adding $1 to the manufacturing cost of a consumer item can add anywhere between $10 and $50 to the consumer price tag.

 

I don't think that applies to things like air conditioners. More like $2 or $3 to the consumer price tag, which is nothing, if it adds a feature that helps selling it.

 

Actually why would any product consumer price tag need to added 10-50 times the added manufacturing cost? I think Nokia used to be able to make mobile phones at $10 cost, but they were sold quite cheaply as well, maybe $100-200. Iphone 6S plus seems to cost $236 to make http://www.cnbc.com/2015/09/30/apple-iphone-6s-plus-costs-236-to-make-sells-for-749.html and sells at $750. Nokia used to make much better percentual margin, but in dollars margin is much better for the high price IPhones. In this case adding $226 to manufacturing cost added consumer price by $600.

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I don't think that applies to things like air conditioners. More like $2 or $3 to the consumer price tag, which is nothing, if it adds a feature that helps selling it.

You appear to live in a world of rose colored spectacles! I've worked in consumer electronics for decades. We've always been keen to hit key price points like £49, £99, £199, £249 and so on. That gives you your target for the retail price to the consumer. Those prices including UK sales tax (currently 20%) so for a £99 item (say) you have £80 to the retailer. He typically wants to take about 30% profit so we need to sell to him at £80-30% (£24) so we sell to him at £56. We might want to make about 20% profit ourselves so say we take £11. That means we need the item "landed" at £45. There's likely something like 4% duty on overseas manufactured goods and there are shipping cost which might account for about 10% of the £45. So that means the item has to be Full On Board from the factory at £41.50. The factory who make it for us need to take their own LOP (Labour, Overhead and Profit) and let's call that 15% So they take £6.25 off the £41.50 which means the BOM cost is £35.275 or about $50. That is for an item that retails at £100 in the UK. Now I haven't included things like royalties or marketing costs (though they may be part of the £11 we got out of this. 

 

Anyway there are $50 to make the thing. We then have to weigh up whether we can economically do that. If that means using a single sided PCB and DIP components to save $0.80 or using five $0.05 capacitors instead of five $0.10 ones to hit the $50 BOM cost we will do that.

 

Any $ we can get below the BOM knocks through as straight profit.

 

We apply this technique for items from $50 retail to $500+ retail.

 

At one stage our company was worth more than $1.5bn. The above is why. We counted every last cent we spent.

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gchapman wrote:

david.prentice wrote:
I have a 32A4U module from Batsocks.

Looking on Ebay,  there are similar DIL modules from Barion and MattairTech.

 

Nothing like the sheer range of Mega and ARM dev boards that are available.

Another source is Mcuzone on Aliexpress; almost totally XMEGA.

Shop Cheap AVR Development Kit from China AVR Development Kit Suppliers at Hangzhou ARMe Electronic Co., Ltd. on Aliexpress.com

AVR Development Kit

http://www.aliexpress.com/store/group/AVR-Development-Kit/800571_209680125.html

 

I was not aware of the McuZone modules.    The $12 price looks ok until they want $23 for postage.

 

Somehow,   a module from Poland, US or UK looks a lot more attractive.

 

David.

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I haven't owned an air conditioner, but the ones I know cost from $500 to $2000, not £99. And we seem to agree that $1 added to production costs adds $2 to $3 to consumer price, not $10 to $50.

 

What I have looked at recently are washing machines. Simple feature like timer or a few extra programs may add $100 or even $200 to the consumer price. If you need a different MCU to nicely add such a feature, wouldn't it be good idea to pay $1 more?

 

Apple is also a good example of getting much more profit, with a cheap add like more memory or mobile data to IPad.

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