musical automotive horn

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Hello amigos:

I am henry "the mutant", engineer and inventor, in my way i found a costumer that owns a car dealer and wants to sell those musical horns that plays tunes when you beat the horn. The fact is that he only wants to change the actual FACTORY RELAY, and the is when i came in play:

change just the FACTORY RELAY HORN replacing it for  NEW MUSICAL, means that i need a microcontroller with:

-Internal regulator (12Volt to 5Volts)

-Soppport rougth enviroment: maybe 200°C and humidity

-Easy Implementation with and 5 Amp-12Volts MOSFET or transistor

-Relay cases

 

And all the above small enougth to fit in a relay

 

Anybody has an idea of what hardware i can use?

 

ANY HELP IS WELCOME

 

BEST REGARDS

always smile :)

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So, you want us to design your project for you? I don't think you can alter the standard horn's frequency, so you'll need to do more than replace the relay. Perhaps you want to see http://bfy.tw/Eqq6

 

 

274,207,281-1 The largest known Mersenne Prime

Measure twice, cry, go back to the hardware store

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I assume you have checked whether this is legal in the intended market(s) ... ?

 

Your requirement is not clear - you talk about "FACTORY RELAY" and "FACTORY RELAY HORN"

 

As Torby says, the frequency of the horn itself is fixed - it cannot be changed.

 

So you are going to have to replace the actual horn - the sound-producing device - not just the relay.

In fact, there is no reason to change the relay.

 

 

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The classic "La Cucaracha" type car horn was several horns (5 for La Cucaracha), a compressor and valves or similar for individual horns. Still the same?

"He used to carry his guitar in a gunny sack, or sit beneath the tree by the railroad track. Oh the engineers would see him sitting in the shade, Strumming with the rhythm that the drivers made. People passing by, they would stop and say, "Oh, my, what that little country boy could play!" [Chuck Berry]

 

"Some questions have no answers."[C Baird] "There comes a point where the spoon-feeding has to stop and the independent thinking has to start." [C Lawson] "There are always ways to disagree, without being disagreeable."[E Weddington] "Words represent concepts. Use the wrong words, communicate the wrong concept." [J Morin] "Persistence only goes so far if you set yourself up for failure." [Kartman]

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mutante wrote:
means that i need a microcontroller

No, it does not necessarily mean that.

 

These were quite common over here 40 years ago - before they were banned - and they never used microcontrollers!

 

But perhaps Bill Bailley could help you out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=...

 

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Torby wrote:

So, you want us to design your project for you? I don't think you can alter the standard horn's frequency, so you'll need to do more than replace the relay. Perhaps you want to see http://bfy.tw/Eqq6

 

 

 

we cannot change the frecuency, but we can change the voltage.... creating another a tone. But the idea is not to play music, only play tunes, like the ones during football games

;)

always smile :)

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JohanEkdahl wrote:
 several horns (5 for La Cucaracha), a compressor and valves 

Like this:

 

Dixie Dukes Of Hazard Musical Car Horns Easy Fit Kit

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Dixie-D...

 

Not a microcontroller in sight!!

 

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mutante wrote:
we can change the voltage.... creating another a tone

Have you actually tried that ... ? 

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awneil wrote:

I assume you have checked whether this is legal in the intended market(s) ... ?

 

Your requirement is not clear - you talk about "FACTORY RELAY" and "FACTORY RELAY HORN"

 

As Torby says, the frequency of the horn itself is fixed - it cannot be changed.

 

So you are going to have to replace the actual horn - the sound-producing device - not just the relay.

In fact, there is no reason to change the relay.

 

 

actually i can play inclusive "la cucaracha" with my car´s horn, the idea is not being hitting the horn so many times, just one. And yea, all the horns have a relay..... factory relay or something like that. is more than clear that i a taking about a relay that cames from factory or whatever.

 

always smile :)

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YES

always smile :)

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too loud!!!!!!

What we need is a relay that opens and coses in certain patron

PLS GUYS, BE MORE SERIOUS OBOUT THIS!!!!!!!!

always smile :)

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YES, if expirience counts.....

always smile :)

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A certain pattern will get you rhythm, but it will not get you pitch.  For most rap music, this is not a problem, but if you want it to play Beethoven it is.  S.
 

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How about an emergency button that pipes out SOS on the horn?  At least that is doable & can be done "as-is"  with the present horn

However that might not be legal, since the Coast Guard is not supposed to bring their boats onto city streets.

 

When in the dark remember-the future looks brighter than ever.

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Arguably, that's what EPIRBs do.  But the risk of false alarms is very high and the benefit very small - After all, you can honk an SOS manually without that much effort.  S.

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Scroungre wrote:
A certain pattern will get you rhythm

Who could ask for anything more ... ?

 

 

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so, no hardware avalible.....

always smile :)

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What kind of "music" is expected...this doesn't sound too viable.

 

First, just try this idea with a horn and a pushbutton switch...can you even get the musical sounds you want?

 

Maybe a better idea for accessories is led imaging rims:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kb3THwZjnHY

 

 

When in the dark remember-the future looks brighter than ever.

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Modern police cars etc have siren sounds that vary a lot. I suppose that means the system consists of a speaker (megaphone type) and some kind of synthesizer? Obtain one of those (legally!() and hack it?

 

 

"He used to carry his guitar in a gunny sack, or sit beneath the tree by the railroad track. Oh the engineers would see him sitting in the shade, Strumming with the rhythm that the drivers made. People passing by, they would stop and say, "Oh, my, what that little country boy could play!" [Chuck Berry]

 

"Some questions have no answers."[C Baird] "There comes a point where the spoon-feeding has to stop and the independent thinking has to start." [C Lawson] "There are always ways to disagree, without being disagreeable."[E Weddington] "Words represent concepts. Use the wrong words, communicate the wrong concept." [J Morin] "Persistence only goes so far if you set yourself up for failure." [Kartman]

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Obviously, the whole point of a car horn is exactly that it is loud - it needs to be heard at distance, above traffic noise, engine noise, road noise, the radio, and through the soundproofing of the passenger compartment!

 

Standard car horns are fixed-tone devices.

 

The tone is fixed by mechanical resonance, so the tone does not vary (significantly) with applied voltage - which is what you want with a car horn!

 

It's like a tuning fork - the tone does not change with how hard you hit it (within reason).

 

So you cannot use  a standard car horn for this.

 

You have 2 choices:

 

  1. Use a number of horns - one for each note
    (like the air horns)
     
  2. As Johan suggests, use some sort of rugged "speaker"
    (which is what you see if you google for existing products on the market)

 

 

The legality of the whole venture remains questionable.

 

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Too far off topic to be useful...

 

JC

 

Edited.

Last Edited: Mon. Nov 6, 2017 - 04:20 AM
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This thread is surely nonsense. You can't make a conventional car hor play a tune by messing with the relay. Full stop. Although I have subverted piezo buzzers(i.e devices with built in oscillators) into playing different "notes", that's using I/O pins and transistor drives. Relays are too slow.

 

Quebracho seems to be the hardest wood.

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mutante wrote:
PLS GUYS, BE MORE SERIOUS OBOUT THIS!!!!!!!!

 

Ok, this sums it up

 

John_A_Brown wrote:
This thread is surely nonsense. You can't make a conventional car hor play a tune by messing with the relay. Full stop.

 

+1

 

The horn mechanically cannot be pulsed to make notes very well either.

 

As noted in prior posts there is also the legal side of altering the horn as the very nature is to 'alert' others for whatever reason.  The horn is designed to be annoying and IIRC the frequencies used are specific to over come environmental obstacles(air resistance, closed car interiors, noise reduction interiors, loud radios etc.)  Altering one, and getting into an accident that could have been prevented with a properly functioning horn Blah Blah Blah.

 

As also noted there are already pre-made musical horn kits that are far better suited for this sort of thing.

 

 

Jim

If you want a career with a known path - become an undertaker. Dead people don't sue! - Kartman

Please Read: Code-of-Conduct

Atmel Studio6.2/AS7, DipTrace, Quartus, MPLAB user

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This might give some ideas:

 

http://www.wendymae.com/mp3/wish.mp3

 

more info:

http://www.wendymae.com/carhornorgan.html

 

 

 

 

 

When in the dark remember-the future looks brighter than ever.

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PLS GUYS, BE MORE SERIOUS OBOUT THIS!!!!!!!!

The user name doesn't help, it's just one letter different from undies.......mutande vs mutante....of course I read it wrong the first time around.

John Samperi

Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.

www.ampertronics.com.au

* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly

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looks that many of you need get to back to school, or simply buy a car and try to play with the horn. Illegal or not of of alterring the horn is not a a bussiness of an electronic forum, maybe theres a lawyer confused here, but I only was asking about hardware that resist around 200°C and you gays havent answer that.

Thanks for nothing

always smile :)

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Of course you can build hardware for automobile environment but you are going down the wrong route and need to think things through first.  You could also get a very expensive engine and control system to do this https://www.bing.com/videos/sear...

 

David

 

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 ... or you could just use a load of old floppy drives: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=...

 

EDIT

 

maybe this one could've done with some 8" floppies to really hit those bass notes ...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=...

 

laugh

Last Edited: Mon. Nov 6, 2017 - 05:32 PM
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mutante wrote:
I only was asking about hardware that resist around 200°C

Really? 

 

From your OP:

mutante wrote:
I am henry "the mutant", engineer and inventor, in my way i found a costumer that owns a car dealer and wants to sell those musical horns that plays tunes when you beat the horn. The fact is that he only wants to change the actual FACTORY RELAY, and the is when i came in play:

 

First sentence.

 

THEN under your specs:

mutante wrote:
change just the FACTORY RELAY HORN replacing it for NEW MUSICAL, means that i need a microcontroller with: -Internal regulator (12Volt to 5Volts) -Soppport rougth enviroment: maybe 200°C and humidity -Easy Implementation with and 5 Amp-12Volts MOSFET or transistor -Relay cases

 

You mention the 200 degree requirement, along with replacing the the FACTORY RELAY HORN et al.

 

Lastly:

mutante wrote:
Anybody has an idea of what hardware i can use?

 

Sure sounds like you are looking for a complete kit.

 

And if you read the posts, you HAVE been given ideas on gear thats already out there to in fact make some of these sounds you are looking for, and at the same time, throwing caution into the wind about this little endeavour as well.

 

Jim

 

If you want a career with a known path - become an undertaker. Dead people don't sue! - Kartman

Please Read: Code-of-Conduct

Atmel Studio6.2/AS7, DipTrace, Quartus, MPLAB user

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Neat!

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or simply buy a car and try to play with the horn.

This will get you FINED in Australia unless it's an emergency and you don't want musical anything, just a blast to warn someone (ie someone crossing the road with headphones on), just like the manufacturer designed it. Even sounding the horn in anger can get you fined for road rage!

 

But if one is at school then these kind of horns could be appealing I guess.

John Samperi

Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.

www.ampertronics.com.au

* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly

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mutante wrote:
looks that many of you need get to back to school, or simply buy a car and try to play with the horn. Illegal or not of of alterring the horn is not a a bussiness of an electronic forum, maybe theres a lawyer confused here, but I only was asking about hardware that resist around 200°C and you gays havent answer that. Thanks for nothing

We're all inclusive here, but referring to us as gays is stepping over the line. "alterring the horn is not a a bussiness of an electronic forum" if that is the case, why did you ask here??

As for hardware that resists 200C - well you might have a problem with silicon as it is not much good past 150C. I'd suggest not mounting the equipment near to the exhaust. Besides, you're the engineer and inventor - sounds like some invention is needed here. How about a clockwork mechanism that activates a relay. Job done. 200C - no problems. No emc worries.

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Kartman wrote:
"alterring the horn is not a a bussiness of an electronic forum" if that is the case, why did you ask here??

To be fair, what (s)he actually wrote was:

Illegal or not of of alterring the horn is not a a bussiness of an electronic forum

By which I guess (s)he means, "the legality or otherwise of altering the horn is not the business of an electronic forum"

 

EDIT

 

Kartman wrote:
you're the "engineer and inventor" - sounds like some invention is needed

My thoughts exactly!

 

 

Last Edited: Tue. Nov 7, 2017 - 08:49 AM
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mutante wrote:

-Soppport rougth enviroment: maybe 200°C and humidity

I think you may be out of luck here. Even military grade microcontrollers are rated up to 125°C (they allow higher temperatures but only for a limited time - e.g. soldering them within seconds).

Furthermore, standard solder (Sn:Pb 60:40) melts at 190°C. And even lead-free solder isn't too different (200-220°C).

And if you plan to use any connectors (even pin headers) then you should know that PBT material has melting point from 150°C to 200°C (depending on aditives) and it looses its mechanical properties with increased temperature.

 

My recommendation if you need this kind of device it would be best to place some siren speaker in the trunk and use circutry completely separated from the car (maybe only use power from 12V car battery). And leave original car functionality as is.

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The horn is just about a useless appendage but it's required to be checked when the car is inspected.  About the only use is to wake the driver ahead of you when he fails to see the light turn green.

 

Many years ago the horn button was big and at the center of the wheel.  Now there is an air bag there and the horn buttons are on the spokes near the rim.  In an emergency you probably don't have the time to find the horn button and you may be turning the wheel so the horn button is a moving target.

 

I've ridden in taxis in countries where a new car is a rarity.  They somehow manage to keep the old cars running.  A horn would be an outrageous luxury.  If the driver was impatient with the car ahead, he would put his arm out the window and slam his hand against the side of the door.  That's a more civilized way than blowing the horn anyway. 

Last Edited: Wed. Nov 8, 2017 - 01:59 AM
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the only use is to wake the driver ahead of you when he fails to see the light turn green.

Need to understand those drivers, probably doing something very important like putting their make up on, reading their emails, Facebook, texting, talking on the phone or even looking up AVRfreaks!

John Samperi

Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.

www.ampertronics.com.au

* Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly

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Illegal or not of of alterring the horn is not a a bussiness of an electronic forum,

On the contrary.  You're asking for free help from private individuals giving their time to a public forum.  What could possibly compel us to help you do something illegal?

 

Good luck with your project.

"Experience is what enables you to recognise a mistake the second time you make it."

"Good judgement comes from experience.  Experience comes from bad judgement."

"When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not unicorns."

"Fast.  Cheap.  Good.  Pick two."

"Read a lot.  Write a lot."

"We see a lot of arses on handlebars around here." - [J Ekdahl]

 

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steve17 wrote:
 About the only use is to wake the driver ahead of you when he fails to see the light turn green.

 

That reminds me of the old definition of the term, "split second":

 

A "split second" is that time between the traffic light turning amber and the driver behind sounding his horn

 

Or, for countries which don't have The Proper Sequence for traffic lights:

A "split second" is that time between the traffic light turning green and the driver behind sounding his horn

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About 25 years ago, I build a novelty horn for my Vauxhall Carlton(just to set the period...).

 

It had a CMOS counter(CD4040 IIRC) for address generation, an EPROM, a DAC and a BTL amplifier chip driving a small horn speaker.

It also had a simple 7805 regulator for the "logic".

 

The whole thing was wired to the horn relay, instead of the conventional horn, and would have looped ad-infinitum if you'd have kept your hand on the horn.

 

The audio was a duck quacking, taken from a BBC sound effects compilation, with a sheep bleating at the end for good measure.

 

My theory was that I only ever used the horn if I saw someone I knew, and with a horn like that the hootee would immediately know who was hooting them. Also, my nephews thought I was the coolest dude on the planet(which happens to be true, as it turn out).

 

The whole thing was assembled on perf board fixed to a piece of wood, and mounted under the bonnet/hood with no protection against the elements whatsoever.

Despite all the stuff you read about cars being hostile environments for electronics, it worked perfectly for two or three years until I stupidly ran low on oil and seized the engine, and ended up dumping the car near Cambridge.

 

It was not, however, considered legal for the purposes of the MOT, which is our annual safety test, so I would have to reconnect the factory horn once a year.

Quebracho seems to be the hardest wood.

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Was it as LOUD as a conventional legal horn?
Could the horn speaker fit in the same space as the original?
.
If yes to both, it could possibly satisfy the OP.
If it could generate a conventional sound, it might even pass the MOT.
.
The electronics and PWM amplifier might fit in a relay-size space.
The horn speaker will be an additional expense.
.
I am guessing that you could never get "music" out of a conventional motor horn or even different sounds.
And any horn "speaker" will require much more power. i.e. will be less efficient.
.
You can perform your own experiments with a high power amplifier and original horn. Just to see what is practical.
Come back with your results i.e. power and decibel levels.
Then you might get sensible advice on the electronics and software.
.
David.

Last Edited: Wed. Nov 8, 2017 - 10:14 AM
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awneil wrote:

 

That reminds me of the old definition of the term, "split second":

 

A "split second" is that time between the traffic light turning amber and the driver behind sounding his horn

 

Or, for countries which don't have The Proper Sequence for traffic lights:

A "split second" is that time between the traffic light turning green and the driver behind sounding his horn

It's not surprising that countries where people drive on the wrong side of the road, also screw up the traffic signal colors.  laugh

 

 

I read decades ago that someone in England figured out that signs with lower case letters could be read at a greater distance than when all upper case was used, because the ascenders and descenders gave the words a shape that upper case letters did not. 

 

How widespread is this today?

 

 

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steve17 wrote:
 countries where people drive on the wrong side of the road, also screw up the traffic signal colors.

So you do!

 

cheeky

 

I read decades ago that someone in England figured out that signs with lower case letters could be read at a greater distance than when all upper case was used, because the ascenders and descenders gave the words a shape that upper case letters did not. 

Yes - upper+lower generally gives better legibility.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Calvert

 

 

How widespread is this today?

It is the norm for all text on road signs.

 

Image result for uk road signs design

 

There are exceptions

 

Image result for uk road signs design stop Image result for when red light shows wait here

 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/traffic-signs

 

 

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"I read decades ago that someone in England figured out that signs with lower case letters could be read at a greater distance than when all upper case was used, because the ascenders and descenders gave the words a shape that upper case letters did not. "

 

That's interesting, and makes sense.

So I shall overlook your somewhat ridiculous implication that there could be a right or a wrong side of the road to drive on.

Just as soon as you get rid of all fuel-wasting four-way stops and replace with mini-roundabouts.

Quebracho seems to be the hardest wood.

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@John,

 

Regarding the actual subject of this thread.    Did your analog loudspeaker produce the same decibels as a conventional horn?

 

I am sure that the OP's idea comes down to practicalities.   e.g. power required.  physical size of loudspeaker to handle the power.

Your experience would be very relevant.    Everyone else can only speculate.

 

David.

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david.prentice wrote:
 Did your analog loudspeaker produce the same decibels as a conventional horn?

It always seems to me that the modern, electronic "wail" sirens on our emergency vehicles are never as loud as the old "Deee-Daah" twin-tone air horns.

 

Or maybe it's just that the air horns were at a more "alerting" frequency; and/or the abrupt "Deee-Daah" transition was more "alerting" ... ?

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david.prentice wrote:

@John,

 

Regarding the actual subject of this thread.    Did your analog loudspeaker produce the same decibels as a conventional horn?

 

I am sure that the OP's idea comes down to practicalities.   e.g. power required.  physical size of loudspeaker to handle the power.

Your experience would be very relevant.    Everyone else can only speculate.

 

David.

No. There is a limit to the power one can get out of a 4 Ohm speaker using a bridge-tied-load amplifier running from 12V.

To get more volume I suppose one could build a higher voltage PSU, or use multiple horn speakers in parallel, but this was just a quick novelty project.

 

I doubt it would interest the OP at all, to be honest. The thread just jogged my memory, and I though it might be interesting, primarily because of the total lack of electrical or physical protection employed in an under-the-hood environment.

 

I don't believe we can help the OP, as it happens, as they want to make horn music by manipulating the relay, and I don't see how that's going to work.

Unless, of course, the proposed melody is "One note Samba".

 

 

And yes, I do understand that there is, in reality, more than one note in that song.

 

 

 

 

Quebracho seems to be the hardest wood.

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awneil wrote:

david.prentice wrote:
 Did your analog loudspeaker produce the same decibels as a conventional horn?

It always seems to me that the modern, electronic "wail" sirens on our emergency vehicles are never as loud as the old "Deee-Daah" twin-tone air horns.

 

Or maybe it's just that the air horns were at a more "alerting" frequency; and/or the abrupt "Deee-Daah" transition was more "alerting" ... ?

I believe the new siren sounds have been researched and designed to be better in some way, although I seem to have forgotten the details.

Quebracho seems to be the hardest wood.

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I understood that he wanted to have all solid-state electronics in a relay-size replacement.
So he might be able to produce a PWM drive to the horn. This might produce some sounds that are different to the physical resonance. e.g. like getting different notes out of a bugle by reaching harmonics.

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Hi - long-time lurker, rare poster here!

 

John_A_Brown wrote:
I believe the new siren sounds have been researched and designed to be better in some way, although I seem to

 

I saw some research on this. The newer sirens often throw in some white noise which is easier for the human ear to position than the old two-tone siren.

 

Cheers,

Adam

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Pope_Gregory_IX wrote:
 easier for the human ear to position than the old two-tone siren.

really?

 

I find quite the opposite - the wailing sound is extremely difficult to position

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david.prentice wrote:
I understood that he wanted to have all solid-state electronics in a relay-size replacement. So he might be able to produce a PWM drive to the horn. This might produce some sounds that are different to the physical resonance. e.g. like getting different notes out of a bugle by reaching harmonics.

I think you are right, just re-read the 1st post.

I suppose there is a chance of producing other tones(and I did allude to this in post #22), but it would be a bit hit and miss with a conventional car horn, which, unless things have changed dramatically over the past 50 years, are simple "vibrator" (stop that sniggering at the back there..) devices with a diaphragm(I said stop it!) attached. You would, I suspect, have to switch the power at a rate higher than the natural period of oscillation, so that the "points" never got a chance to open.

 

Anyway, maybe Mutante will come back and tell us how he gets on.

 

 

 

 

Quebracho seems to be the hardest wood.

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awneil wrote:

Pope_Gregory_IX wrote:
 easier for the human ear to position than the old two-tone siren.

really?

 

I find quite the opposite - the wailing sound is extremely difficult to position

Human ear, Andrew, not feline ear.

 

Good to have you on board, Pope_Gregory_IX. Looking forward to some of that legendary infallibility. Are you keeping up the chanting tradition these days?

 

Quebracho seems to be the hardest wood.

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John_A_Brown wrote:
Looking forward to some of that legendary infallibility

 ... and, hopefully, not too much bull !

 

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I find quite the opposite - the wailing sound is extremely difficult to position

I expect this is environment-dependent.  In an urban setting with large, tall buildings, highly sound-reflecting facades, there is a great deal of multi-path sound through which the listener must localise the source.  Different frequencies will result in different 'computed' source positions based on the listener's position w.r.t. additive and destructive interference of the various paths for that frequency.  The rapid 'burp-chirp' component to the sirens in emergency vehicles where I live are perhaps an attempt to minimise that kind of 'phantom' localisation...?  ... by rapidly (over a few ms) and repeatedly sweeping across a range of frequencies.

 

A wild guess.

 

Unless, of course, the proposed melody is "One note Samba".

 

 

And yes, I do understand that there is, in reality, more than one note in that song.

Many :)

https://www.amazon.fr/Statlers-Julie-Michels-Kevin-Barrett/dp/B0047EWEPY

 

The lyrics are not irrelevant to this thread:

...

There's so many people who can talk and talk and talk
And just say nothing or nearly nothing
I have used up all the scale I know and at the end I've come
To nothing, or nearly nothing

...

;-)

"Experience is what enables you to recognise a mistake the second time you make it."

"Good judgement comes from experience.  Experience comes from bad judgement."

"When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not unicorns."

"Fast.  Cheap.  Good.  Pick two."

"Read a lot.  Write a lot."

"We see a lot of arses on handlebars around here." - [J Ekdahl]

 

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John_A_Brown wrote:
unless things have changed dramatically over the past 50 years, [car horns] are simple "vibrator" [..] devices with a diaphragm

They are, AFAIK. At least on newish Volvos..

 

John_A_Brown wrote:
natural period of oscillation

Snigger... ;-)

"He used to carry his guitar in a gunny sack, or sit beneath the tree by the railroad track. Oh the engineers would see him sitting in the shade, Strumming with the rhythm that the drivers made. People passing by, they would stop and say, "Oh, my, what that little country boy could play!" [Chuck Berry]

 

"Some questions have no answers."[C Baird] "There comes a point where the spoon-feeding has to stop and the independent thinking has to start." [C Lawson] "There are always ways to disagree, without being disagreeable."[E Weddington] "Words represent concepts. Use the wrong words, communicate the wrong concept." [J Morin] "Persistence only goes so far if you set yourself up for failure." [Kartman]

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JohanEkdahl wrote:
Snigger... ;-)

 

Image result for ooh err missus Image result for titter ye not

 

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JohanEkdahl wrote:

John_A_Brown wrote:
unless things have changed dramatically over the past 50 years, [car horns] are simple "vibrator" [..] devices with a diaphragm

They are, AFAIK. At least on newish Volvos..

 

John_A_Brown wrote:
natural period of oscillation

Snigger... ;-)

I purposely let that one go, Johan, as for some reason I thought the predominantly American user base of this forum referred to that particular cycle as a full stop.

 

Quebracho seems to be the hardest wood.